Item Flipping

[Numismaster]

If the flipper can buy the items for cheap, then why can't the buyer do that either?

 

Time is a commodity and saving time can be a service. The flipper fills the time void between the buyer and seller. Although some people don't need money (or a certain item) right away, some do and these pay the price (willingly I might add).

 

Ultimately, the Grand Exchange is a voluntary trading system regulated by many strict rules created by Jagex. Nobody is forced to use the GE; therefore, any use of it that is within the rules of the game should not be considered "wrong". If you don't like it, don't do it.

[Robert_R]

Seller - Sold an item, got 10M.

Flipper - Bought an item, sold the item, earned 200K.

Buyer - Bought an item, spend 10.2M.

 

What has the flilpper done that deserves that 200K he earned? Had he not been involved, the buyer would have only spend 10M. Which means he's put the buyer in a worse economic situation by 200K. There's no "convenience" provided, because I, the seller, did not find the need to sell the good, and gained nothing from having it sold a day earlier.

 

Or... Buyer could just put in an offer for 10M and wait for the next seller. This is why I cannot, and will not ever view item flipping as stealing. No one is forcing anyone to be impatient with the GE.

That's my whole point right there. The buyer could either a: wait for another seller that's selling lower or b: buy higher because he can't get it lower.

 

This is all assuming the item is hard to get in the first place and would take hours to get at the lower price btw.

 

That's my whole point right there. None of you seem to understand the concept of "Consumer Surplus."

 

Right now, if I were to lose my Abyssal Whip due to, say, dying at Tormented Demons and not making it back in time, I'd go to the Grand Exchange and buy another. It could be 5M. It could be 7M. I'd still buy it.

 

Maybe if it were 12M, I'd reconsider, and possibly get my own. If this is the case, then MY valuation of the item is 12M. If the GE will sell for 6M, my consumer surplus is 6M.

 

However, if you buy it from a seller for 6M, replace the offer at 6.2M, and it sells to me, you have reduced my consumer surplus by 200K.

 

This is why I keep repeating, it's a zero sum game. Anything you get within this system has to come from someone, and unless you return the value by providing some sort of service, then it's had a negative impact.

Maybe I don't get what you're saying but I really still don't see anything negative by selling higher just because someone is willing to buy it. I mean ya it's negative if the person is only willing to pay 6m but he has to buy it for 6.2m but if that's not the case I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

You're saying the ge will sell for 6m but you're also saying it will sell to you at 6.2m from a buyer. The thing about that is you can only get it for 6.2m from a buyer if you put the offer in for 6.2m in the grand exchange which means you're obviously willing to pay more for it. If not you could just as easily put it in for 6m and not buy it from the person selling it for 6.2m. There's nothing forcing you to buy it higher then what you're willing to pay for it, unless a merch clan picked it up and is manipulating prices but that's something different.

 

I just don't see what you're getting at by implying you're going to be buying it from the "flipper" for 6.2m if you only want it for 6m you could put the offer in for 6m and not buy from him.

[Soma2035]

Maybe I don't get what you're saying but I really still don't see anything negative by selling higher just because someone is willing to buy it. I mean ya it's negative if the person is only willing to pay 6m but he has to buy it for 6.2m but if that's not the case I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

You're saying the ge will sell for 6m but you're also saying it will sell to you at 6.2m from a buyer. The thing about that is you can only get it for 6.2m from a buyer if you put the offer in for 6.2m in the grand exchange which means you're obviously willing to pay more for it. If not you could just as easily put it in for 6m and not buy it from the person selling it for 6.2m. There's nothing forcing you to buy it higher then what you're willing to pay for it, unless a merch clan picked it up and is manipulating prices but that's something different.

 

I just don't see what you're getting at by implying you're going to be buying it from the "flipper" for 6.2m if you only want it for 6m you could put the offer in for 6m and not buy from him.

 

I don't think the flipper should be paid. That's my anger with this, he's done nothing to make the proverbial pie larger.

 

An Abyssal Whip is currently 3.2M to 3.5M. I don't know automatically whether there are lots of people selling it, or lots of people buying it. All I know is that unless the price is a LOT higher than 3.5M, I'd rather buy a whip than do without it, or get my own. That's why I make the offer at 3.5M - I know that if people are trying to sell their whips, the GE will sell me one. If people aren't, well, I don't need it NOW thanks to the fact I can borrow one, and there are other things I can do while I wait.

 

You buying the item from someone at minimum and selling it to me at maximum has left us both satisfied, yes. I'm not arguing that at all. However, had you not purchased it from him and sold it to me, either he would have gotten more money, or I would have spent less. This discrepancy is surplus, but it belongs to us - the two parties of the transaction.

 

It should not go to an anonymous, unnamed third-party who did nothing to benefit either of us. This is my gripe with the situation.

[Unb34t4bl3]

This discrepancy is surplus, but it belongs to us - the two parties of the transaction.

 

Then make the trade, in trade. No one is forcing anyone to use the GE. :P

 

It is stupidly easy to make money doing nothing off the GE though. I can see why one would be upset over that. But I still disagree with the stealing and or negative impact part, as that is all up to the buyer, not the seller. If a flipper can sell high, so can somebody that is not a flipper. If a flipper can buy low, so can somebody that is not a flipper. Does it take time? If you're going to act like a few hours at most is a big deal then I can't help but to not feel sorry for you.

 

No service, maybe true: but this is RuneScape we are talking about, where nothing matters in the end.

[Robert_R]

Maybe I don't get what you're saying but I really still don't see anything negative by selling higher just because someone is willing to buy it. I mean ya it's negative if the person is only willing to pay 6m but he has to buy it for 6.2m but if that's not the case I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

You're saying the ge will sell for 6m but you're also saying it will sell to you at 6.2m from a buyer. The thing about that is you can only get it for 6.2m from a buyer if you put the offer in for 6.2m in the grand exchange which means you're obviously willing to pay more for it. If not you could just as easily put it in for 6m and not buy it from the person selling it for 6.2m. There's nothing forcing you to buy it higher then what you're willing to pay for it, unless a merch clan picked it up and is manipulating prices but that's something different.

 

I just don't see what you're getting at by implying you're going to be buying it from the "flipper" for 6.2m if you only want it for 6m you could put the offer in for 6m and not buy from him.

 

I don't think the flipper should be paid. That's my anger with this, he's done nothing to make the proverbial pie larger.

 

An Abyssal Whip is currently 3.2M to 3.5M. I don't know automatically whether there are lots of people selling it, or lots of people buying it. All I know is that unless the price is a LOT higher than 3.5M, I'd rather buy a whip than do without it, or get my own. That's why I make the offer at 3.5M - I know that if people are trying to sell their whips, the GE will sell me one. If people aren't, well, I don't need it NOW thanks to the fact I can borrow one, and there are other things I can do while I wait.

 

You buying the item from someone at minimum and selling it to me at maximum has left us both satisfied, yes. I'm not arguing that at all. However, had you not purchased it from him and sold it to me, either he would have gotten more money, or I would have spent less. This discrepancy is surplus, but it belongs to us - the two parties of the transaction.

 

It should not go to an anonymous, unnamed third-party who did nothing to benefit either of us. This is my gripe with the situation.

I see why you're mad and trust me I don't like it too much either I'm just trying to say it's not very negative to the buyer simply because they don't have to buy it if they don't want to. You're right about the flipper not really deserving the money and I kind of agree because it just takes away from everyone who works for there money when someone can just sit there and do nothing to make millions more then the person who works for it.

[Soma2035]

This discrepancy is surplus, but it belongs to us - the two parties of the transaction.

 

Then make the trade, in trade. No one is forcing anyone to use the GE. :P

 

I would do that, except most people who want to sell simply put them in the GE. No one in their right mind would go around looking for someone to buy it, if they could simply leave it in the GE... which puts me into an equally precarious position.

 

In any case, this isn't meant as an accusation so I think I'm done. Either you understand, but don't care because to you, other players are just faceless pixels, you don't understand or don't want to understand, or you understand and are considering changing. I'm going to guess the first option, since that's the trend of the general Runescape community: "I don't give a rat's [wagon] if you think I'm rude."

 

I see why you're mad and trust me I don't like it too much either I'm just trying to say it's not very negative to the buyer. You're right about the flipper not really deserving the money and I kind of agree because it just takes away from everyone who works for there money when someone can just sit there and do nothing to make millions more then the person who works for it.

 

As Aahz once said, "I'm way past mad... I'm thoughtful."

 

I'm not angry. I just feel the need to correct misinformation when I see it, and hopefully, since you sound like you understand now... well, maybe if enough people understand, things could be different some day.

[Unb34t4bl3]

Either you understand, but don't care because to you, other players are just faceless pixels...

 

Correction: Most are, but not all. No different than not caring about some random stranger at the supermarket, or anywhere for that matter. You can call me greedy, or a bad uncaring person or whatever, but do note I do try to help others out here - I mean I even went through the time to put a website to help others out. But again... I still don't view the whole art of flipping as stealing even with your view. I guess logic and reasoning works differently with different people. We both see the same general thing, but when it comes to fine details, we see differently.

 

And yes I do understand you, but I guess now you understand me as well. ;)

[Robert_R]

This discrepancy is surplus, but it belongs to us - the two parties of the transaction.

 

Then make the trade, in trade. No one is forcing anyone to use the GE. :P

 

I would do that, except most people who want to sell simply put them in the GE. No one in their right mind would go around looking for someone to buy it, if they could simply leave it in the GE... which puts me into an equally precarious position.

 

In any case, this isn't meant as an accusation so I think I'm done. Either you understand, but don't care because to you, other players are just faceless pixels, you don't understand or don't want to understand, or you understand and are considering changing. I'm going to guess the first option, since that's the trend of the general Runescape community: "I don't give a rat's [wagon] if you think I'm rude."

 

I see why you're mad and trust me I don't like it too much either I'm just trying to say it's not very negative to the buyer. You're right about the flipper not really deserving the money and I kind of agree because it just takes away from everyone who works for there money when someone can just sit there and do nothing to make millions more then the person who works for it.

 

As Aahz once said, "I'm way past mad... I'm thoughtful."

 

I'm not angry. I just feel the need to correct misinformation when I see it, and hopefully, since you sound like you understand now... well, maybe if enough people understand, things could be different some day.

I get everything you keep saying except for the part that you view it as stealing. I still don't see how making money off of someones impatience is stealing.

[Soma2035]

This discrepancy is surplus, but it belongs to us - the two parties of the transaction.

 

Then make the trade, in trade. No one is forcing anyone to use the GE. :P

 

I would do that, except most people who want to sell simply put them in the GE. No one in their right mind would go around looking for someone to buy it, if they could simply leave it in the GE... which puts me into an equally precarious position.

 

In any case, this isn't meant as an accusation so I think I'm done. Either you understand, but don't care because to you, other players are just faceless pixels, you don't understand or don't want to understand, or you understand and are considering changing. I'm going to guess the first option, since that's the trend of the general Runescape community: "I don't give a rat's [wagon] if you think I'm rude."

 

I see why you're mad and trust me I don't like it too much either I'm just trying to say it's not very negative to the buyer. You're right about the flipper not really deserving the money and I kind of agree because it just takes away from everyone who works for there money when someone can just sit there and do nothing to make millions more then the person who works for it.

 

As Aahz once said, "I'm way past mad... I'm thoughtful."

 

I'm not angry. I just feel the need to correct misinformation when I see it, and hopefully, since you sound like you understand now... well, maybe if enough people understand, things could be different some day.

I get everything you keep saying except for the part that you view it as stealing. I still don't see how making money off of someones impatience is stealing.

 

Well, when you take something from someone else that you haven't done something to earn, I feel that's stealing. And by "doing something to earn", I mean doing something that THEY enjoy the benefits of... I think we just disagree on the definition of stealing.

[Unb34t4bl3]

I view it more as them giving money away. ;)

[Obtaurian]

This discrepancy is surplus, but it belongs to us - the two parties of the transaction.

 

Then make the trade, in trade. No one is forcing anyone to use the GE. :P

 

I would do that, except most people who want to sell simply put them in the GE. No one in their right mind would go around looking for someone to buy it, if they could simply leave it in the GE... which puts me into an equally precarious position.

 

In any case, this isn't meant as an accusation so I think I'm done. Either you understand, but don't care because to you, other players are just faceless pixels, you don't understand or don't want to understand, or you understand and are considering changing. I'm going to guess the first option, since that's the trend of the general Runescape community: "I don't give a rat's [wagon] if you think I'm rude."

 

I see why you're mad and trust me I don't like it too much either I'm just trying to say it's not very negative to the buyer. You're right about the flipper not really deserving the money and I kind of agree because it just takes away from everyone who works for there money when someone can just sit there and do nothing to make millions more then the person who works for it.

 

As Aahz once said, "I'm way past mad... I'm thoughtful."

 

I'm not angry. I just feel the need to correct misinformation when I see it, and hopefully, since you sound like you understand now... well, maybe if enough people understand, things could be different some day.

I get everything you keep saying except for the part that you view it as stealing. I still don't see how making money off of someones impatience is stealing.

 

If I'm understanding what Soma is saying, it's pretty simple: You're not required to fill the gap between seller and buyer. You're not offering a service, because the item was already in the GE to begin with, so the buyer could have bought the item from the seller, but now has to go through you for no reason AND a higher price.

[Tim]

I tried my hand at flipping once, made myself 800k overnight. Thinking of trying it a bit more after 99 Defence since I'm thinking of working on Woodcutting.

[Unb34t4bl3]

You're not required to fill the gap between seller and buyer. You're not offering a service, because the item was already in the GE to begin with, so the buyer could have bought the item from the seller but now has to go through you for no reason AND a higher price.

 

Completely correct up to the bold, and then completely wrong, for reasons stated previously about 8 times that I can't be bothered to repeat at this point.

[Obtaurian]

You're not required to fill the gap between seller and buyer. You're not offering a service, because the item was already in the GE to begin with, so the buyer could have bought the item from the seller but now has to go through you for no reason AND a higher price.

 

Completely correct up to the bold, and then completely wrong, for reasons stated previously about 8 times that I can't be bothered to repeat at this point.

 

Despite having read every post in this thread (some multiple times so that I could grasp what was being said), I must have missed that part. Would someone else enlighten me as how a flipper is at all necessary in the transaction between a seller and buyer (in the context of the GE, of course)? I would have to agree with Soma that the flipper is essentially making profit by "stealing" from the buyer, who could have spent less if not for the flipper. This, to me, doesn't seem to be a very ambiguous situation. I'm just not seeing how a flipper is necessary.

[Unb34t4bl3]

I just agreed that a flipper is not necessary. But a buyer having to go through a flipper? No.

[Obtaurian]

If you read correctly, I just agreed that a flipper is not necessary. But a buyer having to go through a flipper? No.

 

I see what you're saying. I would agree to an extent, as the buyer does not have to put an offer in at the flipper's price, but the flipper is essentially making it more difficult for the buyer to get the item at the price that the seller wants by removing the seller's item from the GE.

[Unb34t4bl3]

Yes, but to take that kind of inconvenience (of having to wait a few extra hours at most, while even being able to borrow the item) to the point where you would call it stealing, is where I disagree. And Soma basically explained it, we just have a different view on the definition and the context that it's being used, and that's how really this whole debate came about. We weren't going back and forth on exactly the same thing.

[Crimsoncow42]

Has anyone said how this works both ways? Sometimes the flipper sets his offer, but doesn't go through instantly. A seller sells his item and gets a better price than he asks for. The flipper sells the item, but again it doesn't go through. A buyer buys at max and gets a better price. Both the seller and buyer get better deals than they wanted. Is that important?

[bedman]

Since Soma explained it all so brilliantly, I think everyone should understand now, so the only way where you can disagree is indeed on what you consider "stealing"

 

And of course, not "everyone" doesn't give a damn, there's always exceptions, but there are some trends, you know...

[Peronix]

I don't really have a problem with it. Flipper don't do anything more than what buyers and sellers could be doing. If the seller wanted a better price for his item, he could probably get it by putting it at mid instead of min. It might take a while, but as they say good things come to those who wait. Same deal for buyers: it wouldn't really be that hard to get an item at near mid provided they are willing to be a bit patient.

 

If you're a flipper, you're basically doing what these people could have been doing but decided not to, and as such you reap the benefits. Sure it may not be providing a service, but it's no less a legitimate source of income than PKing. The only people I have a problem with in this economy are manipulators.

 

Btw, my method of training herblore is essentially flipping. I put in offers for herbs at quite a bit lower than the "instant buy" price, clean them, and sell them for a bit higher than the "insant sell" price, it does take time, and I don't make THAT much money, but of course what I'm after is the exp, and so far I've gotten 2m exp for it, which at today's prices is worth ~50m.

[Artemis1330]

There are many types of ge merching. Flipping, stocks, manipulation, and buyouts to name the most common.

 

Sure, "flippers" are not necessary in today's RS, and that there is no longer a service provided and no real benefit. It's probably more of an inconvenience now. But don't blame the people that flip and think the other side is not at fault either. We buy at those low prices because YOU sell at them, and vice versa. If you don't agree with flipping, and don't want others to flip, then don't throw offers in for min/max.

 

However, flipping and general ge merching has certainty helped to cause the massive inflation in RS. When you can make 200m a day ge merching and flipping, combined with the influx of gp from PVP, it's going to cause inflation.

[death666bl00ms]

There are many types of ge merching. Flipping, stocks, manipulation, and buyouts to name the most common.

 

Sure, "flippers" are not necessary in today's RS, and that there is no longer a service provided and no real benefit. It's probably more of an inconvenience now. But don't blame the people that flip and think the other side is not at fault either. We buy at those low prices because YOU sell at them, and vice versa. If you don't agree with flipping, and don't want others to flip, then don't throw offers in for min/max.

However, flipping and general ge merching has certainty helped to cause the massive inflation in RS. When you can make 200m a day ge merching and flipping, combined with the influx of gp from PVP, it's going to cause inflation.

 

 

Wasted vote theory. My not selling at min/max won't change jack.

[tortilliachp]

 

 

 

Wasted vote theory. My not selling at min/max won't change jack.

 

Would you apply wasted vote theory to the global warming issue? It does not function on a macro-demographic level, only on an individual basis. Otherwise the conclusion is that everything is inevitable based on the size of the human population. This conclusion is clearly flawed, as individuals such as Nobel, Einstein, Keppler, Freud, Bush and Tiger Woods influence humanity as a whole to some extent.

[Artemis1330]

There are many types of ge merching. Flipping, stocks, manipulation, and buyouts to name the most common.

 

Sure, "flippers" are not necessary in today's RS, and that there is no longer a service provided and no real benefit. It's probably more of an inconvenience now. But don't blame the people that flip and think the other side is not at fault either. We buy at those low prices because YOU sell at them, and vice versa. If you don't agree with flipping, and don't want others to flip, then don't throw offers in for min/max.

However, flipping and general ge merching has certainty helped to cause the massive inflation in RS. When you can make 200m a day ge merching and flipping, combined with the influx of gp from PVP, it's going to cause inflation.

 

 

Wasted vote theory. My not selling at min/max won't change jack.

 

 

I am not telling you to try to change [cabbage]. I am saying if you don't LIKE flipping then don't sell to them or buy from them.

[death666bl00ms]

There are many types of ge merching. Flipping, stocks, manipulation, and buyouts to name the most common.

 

Sure, "flippers" are not necessary in today's RS, and that there is no longer a service provided and no real benefit. It's probably more of an inconvenience now. But don't blame the people that flip and think the other side is not at fault either. We buy at those low prices because YOU sell at them, and vice versa. If you don't agree with flipping, and don't want others to flip, then don't throw offers in for min/max.

However, flipping and general ge merching has certainty helped to cause the massive inflation in RS. When you can make 200m a day ge merching and flipping, combined with the influx of gp from PVP, it's going to cause inflation.

 

 

Wasted vote theory. My not selling at min/max won't change jack.

 

 

I am not telling you to try to change [cabbage]. I am saying if you don't LIKE flipping then don't sell to them or buy from them.

 

Your two sentences taken together suggest that if I stop selling at min/max, then item flipping stops. If that isn't what you were implying, then I apologize.