Should Jagex start beta testing with players?

[Guest jrhairychest]

 

Jagex like to keep updates to themselves to keep the game fresh. It'll spoil any updates/skills/quests for everyone.

 

 

 

What? How is it more suprising for it to come out in game than for it to come out in the beta server...

 

In todays game we get suprised when things get added to the game world.

 

In the future game, we get suprised when things get added to the beta world.

 

What is the difference...?

 

No, we get to know something is being tested but can't play it unless you're in some sort of testing team. So it ruins the suprise element for the bulk of the community.

 

With real beta-testing: who would grind woodcutting, who would grind fishing etc. if no exp was rewarded? That's a beta: you test the game features out without playing the game in standardized ways.

 

Yet again you've hit the nail on the head with this with some intelligent posting :thumbup: . Very few players would actually 'test' the game as their primary purpose is to 'want to play it', rather than test for absolutes. Sure you'd some sort of gameplay feedback but theres no guarantees with it.

 

Many issues and glitches are found purely by chance by the general playing community over time so I don't think beta testing would improve our lot. In fact, it'd probably be worse by further delaying any releases and limiting testing to a select few when you'd get more feedback as a whole, which currently happens anyway. Waste of time, money and effort for no real benefit.

[Myweponsg00d]

 

quests and other content you play once can't really be beta tested: you play it, you're done with it.

 

... not a slight test of small parts of content...

 

 

In WoW, boss encounters are tested on the public test realm. Sure you could kill the boss again, but you only need to figure out HOW to kill it once. You could play quests again on other RS characters. Or hell, I dont care, what if we just beta test non-quest additions? You are bickering over small details of the concept now, instead of saying why it would be a bad to have players play "unfinished" content that doesnt affect the "real" RS.

 

 

With real beta-testing: who would grind woodcutting, who would grind fishing etc. if no exp was rewarded? That's a beta: you test the game features out without playing the game in standardized ways.

 

Nobody needs to grind woodcutting in beta testing. There haven't been any bugs so far where you cut 50,000 logs but on the 50,001 log your character randomly dies. People would just play very lightly and do a wide variety of things, sometimes only once. Youd be suprised what a community of 1000s of people can find out very quickly, compared to a team of less than 20.

 

No, we get to know something is being tested but can't play it unless you're in some sort of testing team. So it ruins the suprise element for the bulk of the community.

 

The test realms for other MMOs are open to the public. I dont see why this would be different for runescape.

 

 

In my opinion theres really no option here. Things just need to be released to a Runescape test realm. As already stated, a lot of our updates already are delivered to us unfinished. So, its kind of like we ARE beta testing, except it gets put into the real game and has an actual detriment on the game world. Sure sounds worse to me than updating it to the test world and saving players a lot of hassle.

 

 

Yet again you've hit the nail on the head with this with some intelligent posting :thumbup: . Very few players would actually 'test' the game as their primary purpose is to 'want to play it', rather than test for absolutes. Sure you'd some sort of gameplay feedback but theres no guarantees with it.

 

 

This makes no sense. How do players find the glitches currently in the live game? Because they want to play it.

 

When we find glitches and imbalances, we arent saying "Okay...now what can I do to break the game?"

 

We just play it and we find stuff thats wrong.

[Guest jrhairychest]

 

Yet again you've hit the nail on the head with this with some intelligent posting :thumbup: . Very few players would actually 'test' the game as their primary purpose is to 'want to play it', rather than test for absolutes. Sure you'd some sort of gameplay feedback but theres no guarantees with it.

 

 

This makes no sense. How do players find the glitches currently in the live game? Because they want to play it.

 

When we find glitches and imbalances, we arent saying "Okay...now what can I do to break the game?"

 

We just play it and we find stuff thats wrong.

 

Apologies I didn't really explain that very well. If a small group of players just 'play' the test rather than look for things that don't contribute to the game play or reveal bugs not picked up by the QA team then how is that beneficial?. We'll all be back to square one discovering bugs/gameplay issues etc. and reporting it back on the forums when its fully released. So we gain nothing except giving a minority an unfair advantage over the rest of the playing population in terms of G.E prices etc. And we all know how it is, word gets around, players can't hold their own water so it begins to spread. We get better feedback with the whole population testing things. Sure, things go wrong or we get things we're not happy with but they can be fixed or amended. No-one gets an unfair advantage either.

 

I sort of half support the idea of world beta testing where the whole of the population gets the opporunity to test things and it would certainly put to bed the notion of players doing it for vanity purposes. However it still has effects on item prices and that upsets a lot of people, plus the suprise elements of the game which I'm quite keen on. It could raise more questions or issues than it answers or solves.

 

Dungeoneering has its issues and I accept that. But are things really that bad in the game? We wouldn't be playing if they were.

[RSBDavid]

I believe beta testing should be done with large content updates like skills, mini games, and game engine updates. Jagex should pickout 1000 random players whom surpass certain standards like total level, game play time, have little to no offences, etc. These 1000 players will be able to test content after the QA team gets finished right before release. These players will have to sign a NDA and an agreement to report back his or her experiences and feelings about the content as well as any bugs or glitches encountered. By choosing legitimate and experienced players to do beta tests, they are more likely to get back positive and encouraging results. I do not want to hear any poster (you know who you are) say "What about the other players." or "Why should they get to test content and not me?", or {insert negative comment towards jagex here}. You need to get a life if you ask those questions. Being a beta tester isn't everything. I beta tested WOTLK and STO. I had to document everything I found. Anything from clipping graphics to level glitches. That is about all I can say.

[jettrider]

Every post on the pmod forums is leaked within minutes of posting it. How would beta testing be any different? Besides, items used in a release are already mysteriously bought out the days before the release, and this would only make that problem worse.

 

What they need to do is hire about three dozen people part-time before a big release (skill, minigame, GrandMaster Quest) and have their entire job be to play as a real player would. The full time QA team can still sort out all the graphical and minor glitches, but now people would actually care about how enjoyable and playable the content is.

 

The perfect example is Mobilizing Armies. Apparently it didn't occur to anyone at Jagex HQ that they should check whether the scenarios were working or not - the last three were locked for half the first day or longer. Apparently it didn't occur to them that the best way to win was to do nothing. Apparently it didn't occur to them to that the fastest way to earn ranks was to kill yourself. These are all things that a competitive gamer would find within their first 3-4 times through.

 

Yes, these are preventable. But not through the RS community. That would be an absolute disaster due to information leaking and the huge effects every update has on the market. I don't think Jagex should be spending their time in court trying to point out hundreds of NDA breaches using IRC logs as evidence.

[Myweponsg00d]

 

Apologies I didn't really explain that very well. If a small group of players just 'play' the test rather than look for things that don't contribute to the game play or reveal bugs not picked up by the QA team then how is that beneficial?. We'll all be back to square one discovering bugs/gameplay issues etc. and reporting it back on the forums when its fully released. So we gain nothing except giving a minority an unfair advantage over the rest of the playing population in terms of G.E prices etc. And we all know how it is, word gets around, players can't hold their own water so it begins to spread. We get better feedback with the whole population testing things. Sure, things go wrong or we get things we're not happy with but they can be fixed or amended. No-one gets an unfair advantage either.

 

I sort of half support the idea of world beta testing where the whole of the population gets the opporunity to test things and it would certainly put to bed the notion of players doing it for vanity purposes. However it still has effects on item prices and that upsets a lot of people, plus the suprise elements of the game which I'm quite keen on. It could raise more questions or issues than it answers or solves.

 

Dungeoneering has its issues and I accept that. But are things really that bad in the game? We wouldn't be playing if they were.

 

So your first paragraph, that wouldn't be an issue if we open it to the public, correct?

 

For the second paragraph, what is the difference between a game update affecting the GE and a beta world update affecting the GE? Also, we used to get Behind the Scenes every month, and that disclosure often led people to stockpile items and people werent bothered by that. ALSO we currently have twitter hints and other such crap, which leads to GE rises. In WoW, people read the test realm patch notes and the market DOES get affected by it, but it is just a part of the game. Its not really any better or worse to have a real update affect the market or a future update affect it.

 

And I'm not really talking about dungeoneering btw, or complaining that it is bad. Theres just a lot of updates that have small problems (exp, prices, etc) that could be streamlined by testing it with a large population.

[bedman]

Every post on the pmod forums is leaked within minutes of posting it. How would beta testing be any different? Besides, items used in a release are already mysteriously bought out the days before the release, and this would only make that problem worse.

 

What they need to do is hire about three dozen people part-time before a big release (skill, minigame, GrandMaster Quest) and have their entire job be to play as a real player would. The full time QA team can still sort out all the graphical and minor glitches, but now people would actually care about how enjoyable and playable the content is.

 

The perfect example is Mobilizing Armies. Apparently it didn't occur to anyone at Jagex HQ that they should check whether the scenarios were working or not - the last three were locked for half the first day or longer. Apparently it didn't occur to them that the best way to win was to do nothing. Apparently it didn't occur to them to that the fastest way to earn ranks was to kill yourself. These are all things that a competitive gamer would find within their first 3-4 times through.

 

Yes, these are preventable. But not through the RS community. That would be an absolute disaster due to information leaking and the huge effects every update has on the market. I don't think Jagex should be spending their time in court trying to point out hundreds of NDA breaches using IRC logs as evidence.

 

Well put. Can't really add anything :(

[brunokiller]

When we find glitches and imbalances, we arent saying "Okay...now what can I do to break the game?"

Well, I do..

[sees_all1]

I did some beta testing for pixeljamgames. I was allowed to play dino run when it was <25% complete. I had a user account where I could log into their website to a blocked off portion, isolated and unlinked.

 

Here's the deal - Jagex already trusts its players in a variety of places. From player mods to forum mods, to independent fan sites which get exclusive interviews.

If secrecy is Jagex's biggest issue, that can be dealt with. How? Non-disclosure agreements, IP, account or MAC blocking for short periods of time so they can't log in. Adding enough data to a screen that can be changed to identify players if they take screen shots.

Rewarding testers based on secrecy - the less they leak the more they get.

 

 

Essentially with the system we have now, we ARE the beta testers. Our mindsets are different from Jagex though - how can I break this to get an advantage versus how can I make this to integrate in the game?

[howbadisbad]

 

Yet again you've hit the nail on the head with this with some intelligent posting :thumbup: . Very few players would actually 'test' the game as their primary purpose is to 'want to play it', rather than test for absolutes. Sure you'd some sort of gameplay feedback but theres no guarantees with it.

 

 

This makes no sense. How do players find the glitches currently in the live game? Because they want to play it.

 

When we find glitches and imbalances, we arent saying "Okay...now what can I do to break the game?"

 

We just play it and we find stuff thats wrong.

 

 

Dungeoneering has its issues and I accept that. But are things really that bad in the game? We wouldn't be playing if they were.

That is why most people don't do dungeoneering as of right now, because it is a minigame with a skill framework thrown onto it. Jagex would have foreseen this flaw easily if they did beta testing with people who played runescape.

 

And before you say "if it is so bad don't play rs" think for a second.

 

When you buy something and that item is defective, do you just throw it away and end it there? No. You return it and complain. You paid for it and you deserve what you paid for. With Runescape you can't get a refund so the only thing left to do is complain (or rant). You are a customer and you have every right to complain if what you are paying for is not worth the cash.

 

Obviously there is still enough content in Runescape for people to do other things but eventually you will run out and be forced to wait for new content. You don't want content like dungeoneering right after you max out. You want good updates and you should do what it takes to get them.

 

EDIT: Would you rather have good updates (that may get leaked) or would you like dungeoneering2 and be "Surprised"?

[Guest jrhairychest]

 

What they need to do is hire about three dozen people part-time before a big release (skill, minigame, GrandMaster Quest) and have their entire job be to play as a real player would. The full time QA team can still sort out all the graphical and minor glitches, but now people would actually care about how enjoyable and playable the content is.

 

Thats part of what QA is supposed to be. Its not QA's job to fix things, just to report them. They're not normally developers as it makes them too expensive. The jobs advertised on the Jagex website tend to pay QA less than the developers. Take a look for yourself. They just report issues back to the development team. Its their job to focus on gameplay issues. Perhaps the problem is not to hire more people or use players, but to change the existing QA team's focus.

 

 

[so your first paragraph, that wouldn't be an issue if we open it to the public, correct?

 

For the second paragraph, what is the difference between a game update affecting the GE and a beta world update affecting the GE? Also, we used to get Behind the Scenes every month, and that disclosure often led people to stockpile items and people werent bothered by that. ALSO we currently have twitter hints and other such crap, which leads to GE rises. In WoW, people read the test realm patch notes and the market DOES get affected by it, but it is just a part of the game. Its not really any better or worse to have a real update affect the market or a future update affect it.

 

And I'm not really talking about dungeoneering btw, or complaining that it is bad. Theres just a lot of updates that have small problems (exp, prices, etc) that could be streamlined by testing it with a large population.

 

For the first part, no because we already have that system in place. All players are technically games testers - we find, we report it.

 

For the second part we don't give any player an unfair game advantage above any other. I'm against using players directly for QA purposes, but if it had to be done, let them all do it on beta worlds. No unfair advantages, no worries about info leaks and no players poncing around RS professing to be Jagex games testers.

 

I did some beta testing for pixeljamgames. I was allowed to play dino run when it was <25% complete. I had a user account where I could log into their website to a blocked off portion, isolated and unlinked.

 

Here's the deal - Jagex already trusts its players in a variety of places. From player mods to forum mods, to independent fan sites which get exclusive interviews.

If secrecy is Jagex's biggest issue, that can be dealt with. How? Non-disclosure agreements, IP, account or MAC blocking for short periods of time so they can't log in. Adding enough data to a screen that can be changed to identify players if they take screen shots.

Rewarding testers based on secrecy - the less they leak the more they get.

 

 

Essentially with the system we have now, we ARE the beta testers. Our mindsets are different from Jagex though - how can I break this to get an advantage versus how can I make this to integrate in the game?

 

Trusting players to help run the game is not the same as giving a select band of players access to info/game areas/questing etc. I don't really see how you can enforce NDA's and how you going to prove the player committed an offence by leaking info? Track every players convo? how would you stop leaks outside of RS? The hassle it would bring. It just wouldn't be practical.

 

I agree with your last point, and the last part brings up part of what I've been (trying to) saying. We are all beta testers. In the end players do whats best for themselves and would be looking for their own advantage.

[Guest jrhairychest]

That is why most people don't do dungeoneering as of right now, because it is a minigame with a skill framework thrown onto it. Jagex would have foreseen this flaw easily if they did beta testing with people who played runescape.

 

And before you say "if it is so bad don't play rs" think for a second.

 

When you buy something and that item is defective, do you just throw it away and end it there? No. You return it and complain. You paid for it and you deserve what you paid for. With Runescape you can't get a refund so the only thing left to do is complain (or rant). You are a customer and you have every right to complain if what you are paying for is not worth the cash.

 

Obviously there is still enough content in Runescape for people to do other things but eventually you will run out and be forced to wait for new content. You don't want content like dungeoneering right after you max out. You want good updates and you should do what it takes to get them.

 

EDIT: Would you rather have good updates (that may get leaked) or would you like dungeoneering2 and be "Surprised"?

 

Sorry for the double post. The update upset players because it didn't fit into any nice and neat bracket that players are used to or they couldn't max it out within one week. Personally I think dungeoneering will be improved as they got a lot of feedback about it. They'll change whats necessary and that will be that.

 

On the subject of being a customer you can vote with your feet. If you're unhappy you don't keep paying your dues. If I'm unhappy with, lets say my ISP, I change it instead of grumbling about it month after month. That's why I find the concept of 'complain complain complain' so amusing. If you feel you're not getting the service you want then you simply cancel your subscription.

 

Of course we all want good updates, but i'd prefer them without the leaks. I'd also like to add that most of the updates have been fine. Picking on a few not so great updates doesn't make the whole system crap.

[howbadisbad]

That is why most people don't do dungeoneering as of right now, because it is a minigame with a skill framework thrown onto it. Jagex would have foreseen this flaw easily if they did beta testing with people who played runescape.

 

And before you say "if it is so bad don't play rs" think for a second.

 

When you buy something and that item is defective, do you just throw it away and end it there? No. You return it and complain. You paid for it and you deserve what you paid for. With Runescape you can't get a refund so the only thing left to do is complain (or rant). You are a customer and you have every right to complain if what you are paying for is not worth the cash.

 

Obviously there is still enough content in Runescape for people to do other things but eventually you will run out and be forced to wait for new content. You don't want content like dungeoneering right after you max out. You want good updates and you should do what it takes to get them.

 

EDIT: Would you rather have good updates (that may get leaked) or would you like dungeoneering2 and be "Surprised"?

 

Sorry for the double post. The update upset players because it didn't fit into any nice and neat bracket that players are used to or they couldn't max it out within one week. Personally I think dungeoneering will be improved as they got a lot of feedback about it. They'll change whats necessary and that will be that.

 

On the subject of being a customer you can vote with your feet. If you're unhappy you don't keep paying your dues. If I'm unhappy with, lets say my ISP, I change it instead of grumbling about it month after month. That's why I find the concept of 'complain complain complain' so amusing. If you feel you're not getting the service you want then you simply cancel your subscription.

 

Of course we all want good updates, but i'd prefer them without the leaks. I'd also like to add that most of the updates have been fine. Picking on a few not so great updates doesn't make the whole system crap.

 

1. But why would they release it only half-made and looking like someone took stealing creation, made it pvm, and then polished it a bit? Obviously the solution is beta testers for that.

 

2. You always look at leaks as a bad thing too. Why? You say that beta testing is bad because economical updates would be exploited by said testers. If things were leaked then there is no such advantage (maybe a small one) and players can outline what they think will happen in the next update and how it should be. <- Jagex reads these things and conforms the new (skill in this case) to something that matches what players want.

 

MY NEW SKILL IDEA = EXPLORING based on if dung was leaked somewhat

 

Different dungeons around Runescape requiring certain exploring levels to get into, there are unique enemies and bosses in these dungeons that drop the dung rewards and more.

At level 75 or so you unlock some grandmaster quest which leads to a new continent and so it continues... <-- off the top of my head while writing this post so it obviously isn't perfect.

 

3. A few not so great updates? The last GOOD update we had was probably the agility update. Perfectly implemented and extremely helpful to all players.

Updates to things that are fine as they are should only be made if the update will make those things better. So for example the hp update was extremely pointless except for advertising to children who think big numbers are cool while Jagex tells us that they will release a future update to change hp again. Why? Why not just release them both at the same time and not screw up pvp and other things? Pointless update that could have been good if both halves were released together.

[xxshady]

 

Th-th-th-th-THREAD BREAKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mecakoto]

 

Th-th-th-th-THREAD BREAKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

[Guest jrhairychest]

 

1. But why would they release it only half-made and looking like someone took stealing creation, made it pvm, and then polished it a bit? Obviously the solution is beta testers for that.

I appreciate the last few posts on here have put an end to the player beta test argument, but for the sake of debate then do worlds full of beta testing. No unfair advantages and players can pick and choose if they want to.

 

2. You always look at leaks as a bad thing too. Why? You say that beta testing is bad because economical updates would be exploited by said testers. If things were leaked then there is no such advantage (maybe a small one) and players can outline what they think will happen in the next update and how it should be. <- Jagex reads these things and conforms the new (skill in this case) to something that matches what players want.

 

MY NEW SKILL IDEA = EXPLORING based on if dung was leaked somewhat

 

Different dungeons around Runescape requiring certain exploring levels to get into, there are unique enemies and bosses in these dungeons that drop the dung rewards and more.

At level 75 or so you unlock some grandmaster quest which leads to a new continent and so it continues... <-- off the top of my head while writing this post so it obviously isn't perfect.

 

No leak is ever good if it's supposed to stay private until release. Leaks also start rumors too which can aid the manipulator clans and that's not small considering the amount of players who (profess to) despise them. Correct, I think there would be exploitation if beta testing involved a limited number of players. Why? Because of player greed and vanity, which is rife in the game. I personally despise this more than a few bad updates.

 

 

3. A few not so great updates? The last GOOD update we had was probably the agility update. Perfectly implemented and extremely helpful to all players.

Updates to things that are fine as they are should only be made if the update will make those things better. So for example the hp update was extremely pointless except for advertising to children who think big numbers are cool while Jagex tells us that they will release a future update to change hp again. Why? Why not just release them both at the same time and not screw up pvp and other things? Pointless update that could have been good if both halves were released together.

I could mention today's update.....but I'll not go there. I don't wish to infuriate some of the Jagex haters around here :wink:

 

Edit - Forgot to mention I thought the agility update was crap. It makes lazy players even lazier by forgiving them training skills (flogged to death on the 'how easy do you want it' thread. But, I agree the HP update was pointless.

[Myweponsg00d]

 

For the first part, no because we already have that system in place. All players are technically games testers - we find, we report it.

 

For the second part we don't give any player an unfair game advantage above any other. I'm against using players directly for QA purposes, but if it had to be done, let them all do it on beta worlds. No unfair advantages, no worries about info leaks and no players poncing around RS professing to be Jagex games testers.

 

-But why is it okay for us to find things after they have already been implemented into the permanent game world? If we had test worlds, it would be really similar to the way things are right now, except bugs would stand a much lower chance of losing somebody's items or giving someone an unfair ammt of exp.

 

-I must say, I am thoroughly confused on your position now...We don't give any player an unfair advantage...which is why the test world would be public and not private to a select few. If we want to talk about unfairness, lets talk about all the people who die and lose items when stupid, preventable glitches arise in updates.

 

Also imagine the possible meaning this could have for new items. When new items come out, nobody knows what they are worth and everyone just buys the item for max price, knowing it will rise. If we know that an item is coming, we could get a preview of how powerful it is, and maybe the market wouldnt be so flooded with panic junk trading to obtain the item on day 1. Maybe it could help Jagex establish a realistic price for when they release it to the real servers.

[qeltar]

Ajd is full of [cabbage]. That's all there is to it.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

I did some beta testing for pixeljamgames. I was allowed to play dino run when it was <25% complete. I had a user account where I could log into their website to a blocked off portion, isolated and unlinked.

 

Here's the deal - Jagex already trusts its players in a variety of places. From player mods to forum mods, to independent fan sites which get exclusive interviews.

If secrecy is Jagex's biggest issue, that can be dealt with. How? Non-disclosure agreements, IP, account or MAC blocking for short periods of time so they can't log in. Adding enough data to a screen that can be changed to identify players if they take screen shots.

Rewarding testers based on secrecy - the less they leak the more they get.

 

 

Essentially with the system we have now, we ARE the beta testers. Our mindsets are different from Jagex though - how can I break this to get an advantage versus how can I make this to integrate in the game?

 

Secrecy is only an issue due to their using the supirse factor as a crutch to shore up their lackluster updates. Good content is good content regardless if people know about it. If it's good, people will want to play it.

[Myweponsg00d]

I did some beta testing for pixeljamgames. I was allowed to play dino run when it was <25% complete. I had a user account where I could log into their website to a blocked off portion, isolated and unlinked.

 

Here's the deal - Jagex already trusts its players in a variety of places. From player mods to forum mods, to independent fan sites which get exclusive interviews.

If secrecy is Jagex's biggest issue, that can be dealt with. How? Non-disclosure agreements, IP, account or MAC blocking for short periods of time so they can't log in. Adding enough data to a screen that can be changed to identify players if they take screen shots.

Rewarding testers based on secrecy - the less they leak the more they get.

 

 

Essentially with the system we have now, we ARE the beta testers. Our mindsets are different from Jagex though - how can I break this to get an advantage versus how can I make this to integrate in the game?

 

Secrecy is only an issue due to their using the supirse factor as a crutch to shore up their lackluster updates. Good content is good content regardless if people know about it. If it's good, people will want to play it.

 

And its still a surprise the day you find out about it. Sure, the day you find out about it might be on a test server, but youll still be surprised by it...

[Me_Hate_Libs]

I did some beta testing for pixeljamgames. I was allowed to play dino run when it was <25% complete. I had a user account where I could log into their website to a blocked off portion, isolated and unlinked.

 

Here's the deal - Jagex already trusts its players in a variety of places. From player mods to forum mods, to independent fan sites which get exclusive interviews.

If secrecy is Jagex's biggest issue, that can be dealt with. How? Non-disclosure agreements, IP, account or MAC blocking for short periods of time so they can't log in. Adding enough data to a screen that can be changed to identify players if they take screen shots.

Rewarding testers based on secrecy - the less they leak the more they get.

 

 

Essentially with the system we have now, we ARE the beta testers. Our mindsets are different from Jagex though - how can I break this to get an advantage versus how can I make this to integrate in the game?

 

Secrecy is only an issue due to their using the supirse factor as a crutch to shore up their lackluster updates. Good content is good content regardless if people know about it. If it's good, people will want to play it.

 

And its still a surprise the day you find out about it. Sure, the day you find out about it might be on a test server, but youll still be surprised by it...

 

Well, if we know about it, and if it's good, no big deal. We'll wait for it and then play it. If we know it, and they hype it, and it sucks terribly like Mobilising Armies, then people dwell on it.

 

The weekly updates and keeping them a secret is like a comedian telling jokes. If a joke/update bombs there is one coming right after it to take the focus. Jagex keeps things a secret in the name of protecting their work, but I don't think that's the real reason.

[Sam]

Trustworthy and insightful testers ARE available in large supply. For starters, Jagex could invite player mods, who have already been deemed trustworthy by Jagex staff, to evaluate the gameplay and design choices of new updates before they're released to the public.

 

 

I think that's one of the best ideas I've seen in this thread.

[Guest jrhairychest]

 

-But why is it okay for us to find things after they have already been implemented into the permanent game world? If we had test worlds, it would be really similar to the way things are right now, except bugs would stand a much lower chance of losing somebody's items or giving someone an unfair ammt of exp.

Everything has its own risks. Even with all the testing in the world you'll still have some that slip through the net.

 

-I must say, I am thoroughly confused on your position now...We don't give any player an unfair advantage...which is why the test world would be public and not private to a select few. If we want to talk about unfairness, lets talk about all the people who die and lose items when stupid, preventable glitches arise in updates.

I'm trying to make a concession for the sake of this debate. Make it public on testing worlds so everyone has the opportunity. That way any knowledge is public to everyone. No need to worry about NDA's, leaks, etc. etc. etc. Much cheaper to implement too and you can set up a forum for feedback/bug reporting, similar to the one we have now. That way the wannabe games testers can have their fun being real pretend games testers and the rest of us the knowledge of what's going on and the proposed update goes through some form of player testing. That should satisfy everyone, with the exception of those who want to call themselves bonafide games testers, who haven't really got a clue. See, meeting you half way here.

 

Also imagine the possible meaning this could have for new items. When new items come out, nobody knows what they are worth and everyone just buys the item for max price, knowing it will rise. If we know that an item is coming, we could get a preview of how powerful it is, and maybe the market wouldnt be so flooded with panic junk trading to obtain the item on day 1. Maybe it could help Jagex establish a realistic price for when they release it to the real servers.

Possibly although the 'street price' vs 'G.E price' debacle we have at the moment doesn't help, but thats a debate for another time.

[howbadisbad]

 

1. But why would they release it only half-made and looking like someone took stealing creation, made it pvm, and then polished it a bit? Obviously the solution is beta testers for that.

I appreciate the last few posts on here have put an end to the player beta test argument, but for the sake of debate then do worlds full of beta testing. No unfair advantages and players can pick and choose if they want to. Uhhh what? Like make a world for beta testing? (ex world 171 is beta test world and doesn't affect your account) pointless imo. You might aswell just release it and then take forever to patch it. (what jagex currently does.)

 

2. You always look at leaks as a bad thing too. Why? You say that beta testing is bad because economical updates would be exploited by said testers. If things were leaked then there is no such advantage (maybe a small one) and players can outline what they think will happen in the next update and how it should be. <- Jagex reads these things and conforms the new (skill in this case) to something that matches what players want.

 

MY NEW SKILL IDEA = EXPLORING based on if dung was leaked somewhat

 

Different dungeons around Runescape requiring certain exploring levels to get into, there are unique enemies and bosses in these dungeons that drop the dung rewards and more.

At level 75 or so you unlock some grandmaster quest which leads to a new continent and so it continues... <-- off the top of my head while writing this post so it obviously isn't perfect.

 

No leak is ever good if it's supposed to stay private until release. Leaks also start rumors too which can aid the manipulator clans and that's not small considering the amount of players who (profess to) despise them. Correct, I think there would be exploitation if beta testing involved a limited number of players. Why? Because of player greed and vanity, which is rife in the game. I personally despise this more than a few bad updates. It's not a rumor if it's leaked for starters. And while greed and manipulation can mess up the ge for a little while before it is released, the same thing will happen on the day of release so your point is stupid. While ge prices only last a little while, bad updates can last anywhere from months to years to get patched, knowing Jagex.

 

 

3. A few not so great updates? The last GOOD update we had was probably the agility update. Perfectly implemented and extremely helpful to all players.

Updates to things that are fine as they are should only be made if the update will make those things better. So for example the hp update was extremely pointless except for advertising to children who think big numbers are cool while Jagex tells us that they will release a future update to change hp again. Why? Why not just release them both at the same time and not screw up pvp and other things? Pointless update that could have been good if both halves were released together.

I could mention today's update.....but I'll not go there. I don't wish to infuriate some of the Jagex haters around here :wink: Imo they should fix Dung before they start updating other things.

 

Edit - Forgot to mention I thought the agility update was crap. It makes lazy players even lazier by forgiving them training skills (flogged to death on the 'how easy do you want it' thread. But, I agree the HP update was pointless. Forgiving them training skills? What the hell are you talking about? The agility update was AWESOME. Who doesn't want to run longer and have better weight reducing gear?

[Guest jrhairychest]

Uhhh what? Like make a world for beta testing? (ex world 171 is beta test world and doesn't affect your account) pointless imo. You might aswell just release it and then take forever to patch it. (what jagex currently does.)

So what makes you think anything will change by using small sections of players as beta testers? By your accounts nothing or very little will be done anyway. Back to square one. Why do you need xp/items or whatever when testing, unless you're trying to get some advantage by doing it?

 

It's not a rumor if it's leaked for starters. And while greed and manipulation can mess up the ge for a little while before it is released, the same thing will happen on the day of release so your point is stupid. While ge prices only last a little while, bad updates can last anywhere from months to years to get patched, knowing Jagex.

If you're going to debate properly, at least do me the courtesy of acting like a grown up and watching your manners. Its leaks that start the rumors, rumor spreads and that leads to the not so nice things previously discussed. On the day of release we should all be on a level playing field, which avoids clans/ players manipulating prices weeks/months in advance. Again I point out that you state that Jagex do not act quickly enough to patch things, so that includes more delays for releases, so we're back to square one. Jagex can't win in the end because if they took the extra time to do any form of player testing the delays just cause players to whinge too.

 

Forgiving them training skills? What the hell are you talking about? The agility update was AWESOME. Who doesn't want to run longer and have better weight reducing gear?

I guess some people do want it easy then.