Abortion in Canada

[qeltar]

People like this guy are dangerous. That's why I have no patience for them.

 

Anyone who thinks it's fine to prohibit all abortion, and doesn't have any problem with the consequences of this up to and including thousands of women dying as a result, is a lunatic. And everyone who values freedom is at risk when these people are allowed to shape or influence public policy.

 

And yes, I do believe that abortion is never the preferred option. But prohibiting it in all circumstances is not consistent with a free society.

[Romy]

I believe that life begins at conception, but that it is contrary to a free society to force women to bear fetuses to term if they are not willing to do so. The fetus does not have the right to demand that a woman place her life and well-being below its own. When a fetus can be brought out of the womb and have a reasonable chance of surviving *without* harming the mother, then abortion is no longer a reasonable procedure. When the fetus is nothing more than a blastocyst, forbidding abortion on the grounds of what it "might be" is tantamous to imposed slavery.

 

Looks like you'll agree with my position that abortion is always undesirable, in every circumstance. And in the act of abortion, a human dies.

If you believe that, there's not much we can debate, because we're on the same page.

 

I too think abortion is always undesirable. But I also think some of the time it's more desirable than not having an abortion.

[sees_all1]

EDIT: Page 158 shows that it's 22 days for the heartbeat, but 5-7 weeks for the heart to develop into a full human heart.

I'll get into a chicken and egg argument. How can there be a heartbeat without a heart? 3 weeks.

 

Anyhow, a heartbeat isn't what defines a human. Its the genetic makeup, and the fact that a child is forming. There are two points in early development which are huge:

1. When fertilization occurs (immediately afterward cell division occurs)

2. When implantation occurs (the cells start to "grow" because they begin receiving nutrition from the womb)

 

Other than those two events, its near impossible to differentiate between trimesters, months, weeks, days, hours or seconds; this is why its pointless to define when a baby is "human", in terms of a day or week after conception (heck, its still using conception as the reference point).

[Kiriyama]

*Sigh*

 

Have you even read it? There is a primitive heart, but it is not fully developed.

[sees_all1]

People like this guy are dangerous. That's why I have no patience for them.

 

Anyone who thinks it's fine to prohibit all abortion, and doesn't have any problem with the consequences of this up to and including thousands of women dying as a result, is a lunatic. And everyone who values freedom is at risk when these people are allowed to shape or influence public policy.

 

And yes, I do believe that abortion is never the preferred option. But prohibiting it in all circumstances is not consistent with a free society.

 

You're worried about what *might* occur, I'm worried about what *has* occurred. 51 million surgical abortions since Roe v. Wade, in the U.S. alone. 51 million people that have been murdered.

I've researched this for many hours, and have formed an opinion.

 

You seem to think that I'm dangerous because I want women to become slaves. My position is very simple: If you don't want a kid, keep your legs closed and your pants zipped up. Wake up everyone: your actions have consequences. There are steps you can take to mitigate the risk of pregnancy, but once you've become pregnant, there is a child in your womb that depends on you. To be completely fair, the only thing that child ever did was depend on you; that child is innocent. Killing the innocent is always morally wrong. If you have a position counter to that, I seriously question your judgment and your morals.

 

Saying that the woman's convenience trumps a baby's right to life is scandalous, but its a position I understand (and vehemently disagree with). Calling it anything other than that is just being intellectually dishonest with yourself.

 

edit:

*Sigh*

 

Have you even read it? There is a primitive heart, but it is not fully developed.

Mentally, humans aren't fully developed until the age of 25. 22 days, a heartbeat. Not 5-7 weeks, because there was already a heartbeat.

But arguing about "when a heart is formed" is stupid, because it was a human from conception.

[qeltar]

I've been informed that my opinions are treading on some peoples' tender sensitivities, and I will not pull punches on this subject, so I am not participating further in this thread.

[Kiriyama]

It's be said before, murder is, by definition, the unlawful taking of a human life. Since Abortion is legal, it is not murder.

 

Secondly, I'd wager a good amount of people here have had sex, a good portion of which have probably done it for fun. Now, if we've taken preventative measures, yet it still happens, are you saying that my girlfriend who is still in education, should be forced to keep a child that we (we are both in education) cannot support? Should she miss some of her education which she needs to get into uni, in order to have a child?

 

There has been teenage pregnancies in my family. My sister is expecting, and she's not 17 yet. My aunt went through exams whilst pregnant. That was their choice.

 

Fact is, we take measures to avoid pregnancy, if they fail, it's up to the mother whether she wants to keep it or not. You can't stop people having sex, whether they love each other or not. I don't want a kid, but if I want to sleep with my girlfriend whilst taking measures against having a kid, I [bleep]ing well will if she is willing. If we encounter trouble, it's her choice what to do with it. Her body, and if she doesn't want something which is essentially a parasite living off her for 9 months, to make her miss out on education, or indeed, make myself miss out on education if we were to keep it.

 

There was abortions before it was legal, and if it's made illegal, there will still be some after. What makes it okay to endanger the life of a human who has to resort to a backstreet abortionist in order to prevent a few babies being aborted in a safe environment?

[Riku3220]

[

This whole "Life is such a precious thing" coming from pro-lifers is really starting to get on my nerves. By your definition of life, killing an insect is murder. Now you'll probably say that the life of a potential human and the life of an insect are different. Now tell me what has the insect done to deserve death? It ate some of your crops? It sucked your blood and made you itch? That's just surviving for them but nobody ever thinks twice about pulling out the fly swatter or taking off their shoe do they? Life isn't precious to you, human life is and the way I'm seeing it, some people need to be sprayed with bug spray more than the actual bugs.

 

Do you plan on adopting? By encouraging women to give birth and put their child up for adoption and then not adopting yourself then you aren't helping. Sure you made some kid experience life, however good it can get in a foster home or orphanage, but you're just overcrowding the adoption system and making another kid who probably would've been adopted wait longer because they thought the other was oh so cute.

Here's one for you - It is a crime to disturb sea turtle nests. Society values seas turtles more than humans. Same with bald eagles.

I'll have you know that I've volunteered for a crisis pregnancy center. You'll also be surprised to learn that there are more adoptive parents in the United States than there are children to adopt: its why people have started adopting internationally.

Sea turtles are an endangered species. It's a good thing to try and protect the animals so that we can continue to enjoy their presence in this world. There are more than enough humans around which is why abortion is legal and smashing sea turtle eggs is not.

[Iamdan]

Ok. Lets say that abortion is killing. I'm sure we can agree on that. Murder is a legal term.

 

Now what?

[sees_all1]

Ok. Lets say that abortion is killing. I'm sure we can agree on that. Murder is a legal term.

 

Now what?

As a world, we need to work tirelessly to stop it. Abortion is always the undesired outcome. How do you prevent it?

For one, you don't pretend that contraceptives and abortifacients are golden tickets to worry-free sex. Most unwanted pregnancies occur because of a failure in birth-control.

Teach responsibility, and common sense. If you don't want to have a kid, or are not ready, don't have sex. Simple as that. Also know that love isn't sex, and staying chaste shows more love to your significant other than sex does.

 

Help remove the stereotypes from teenage pregnancies. Instead of looking down on a girl for being pregnant, offer as much help and support as you can. Be a friend; approach the subject delicately. Find your local crisis pregnancy center, and for cabbage sake avoid Planned Parenthood. Don't gossip about it, and don't encourage others either.

If you get your girlfriend pregnant, grow a pair and man up. Be the father you are. If you become pregnant, know that your child will be forever thankful for their life. If you can't afford to keep the child, or don't want to deal with raising a kid just yet, give them enough love to put them up for adoption. Never let someone pressure you into a decision you may later regret. If you have regrets, find healing.

Learn as much as you can about this subject, become an apologetic. Be able to explain the stages of baby growth and development. Pictures are a must.

 

Tldr; make it easier to give birth than to procure an abortion.

[Iamdan]

As a world, we need to work tirelessly to stop it. Abortion is always the undesired outcome. How do you prevent it?

 

Why is it so wrong?

For one, you don't pretend that contraceptives and abortifacients are golden tickets to worry-free sex. Most unwanted pregnancies occur because of a failure in birth-control.

Teach responsibility, and common sense. If you don't want to have a kid, or are not ready, don't have sex. Simple as that. Also know that love isn't sex, and staying chaste shows more love to your significant other than sex does.

 

The main failure with condoms is incorrect use. Don't keep them in your wallet, put them on properly etc. Teenagers are going to have sex anyway, educating them on safe sex is better than letting them do whatever they want.

You can't override our instinct to mount each other, no matter how hard you try. It's not society's fault.

make it easier to give birth than to procure an abortion.

 

You're kidding. Have you even seen a child in real life?

[paul191600]

You're kidding. Have you even seen a child in real life?

 

Have you personally had an abortion? I know several women who have had abortions, and let me tell you, all of them now regret it. Abortions can cause a good deal of emotional distress. There is even a study going on, stating that women that had abortions may subconsciously try having another child, to make up for the dead fetus (if I find the article I'll post it later). So killing animals (in most cases besides hunting, which requires a license) is a wrong thing to do, but then killing a fetus is fine? Even if they aren't a "human being" as some claim, they are still at least a creature, capable of movement & etc. By the way, an article for everyone: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/planned-parenthood-clinic-director-joins-anti-abortion-group/story?id=8999720

[Iamdan]

You're kidding. Have you even seen a child in real life?

 

Have you personally had an abortion? I know several women who have had abortions, and let me tell you, all of them now regret it. Abortions can cause a good deal of emotional distress. There is even a study going on, stating that women that had abortions may subconsciously try having another child, to make up for the dead fetus (if I find the article I'll post it later). So killing animals (in most cases besides hunting, which requires a license) is a wrong thing to do, but then killing a fetus is fine? Even if they aren't a "human being" as some claim, they are still at least a creature, capable of movement & etc. By the way, an article for everyone: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/planned-parenthood-clinic-director-joins-anti-abortion-group/story?id=8999720

 

Which is why nobody is claiming it is a 'quick fix,' yet 'pro lifers' always seem to assume that's what we think. When did I say killing animals was wrong?

 

So what? I know a couple women who have had abortions who are glad they did. "I know x who believes y" has no place in a (hopefully) rational debate.

[Romy]

You're kidding. Have you even seen a child in real life?

 

Have you personally had an abortion? I know several women who have had abortions, and let me tell you, all of them now regret it.

 

I'm sorry, but I know two women who'se had abortions, one I even consider a very very close friend.

 

 

Neither regrets the abortion part, both regret ever being pregnant. They both understand the outcome of having a child at this point of their lives (my close friend was 14 at the time, the other one was 21). Having that child won't only ruin the mothers' lives, but the childrens' lives aswell.

 

 

 

 

Either way, and whatever the agenda towards abortion is, I don't think you (or anyone else for that matter) should have a say in whether abortions should be legal. The women who have them, decided to. They're probably well aware to the consequences, know what having an abortion means, know what not having an abortion means, and decide to have it anyway. Who are you to decide they should not?

[Nenga]

You're kidding. Have you even seen a child in real life?

 

Have you personally had an abortion? I know several women who have had abortions, and let me tell you, all of them now regret it. Abortions can cause a good deal of emotional distress. There is even a study going on, stating that women that had abortions may subconsciously try having another child, to make up for the dead fetus (if I find the article I'll post it later). So killing animals (in most cases besides hunting, which requires a license) is a wrong thing to do, but then killing a fetus is fine? Even if they aren't a "human being" as some claim, they are still at least a creature, capable of movement & etc. By the way, an article for everyone: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/planned-parenthood-clinic-director-joins-anti-abortion-group/story?id=8999720

You haven't personally had an abortion either. What makes killing animals different when you have a license? Either it's wrong or it's right, you can't pick and choose random things like that.

[sees_all1]

Having that child won't only ruin the mothers' lives, but the childrens' lives aswell.

Better dead than *possibly* miserable? Your logic is messed up.

 

Either way, and whatever the agenda towards abortion is, I don't think you (or anyone else for that matter) should have a say in whether abortions should be legal. The women who have them, decided to. They're probably well aware to the consequences, know what having an abortion means, know what not having an abortion means, and decide to have it anyway. Who are you to decide they should not?

Why is it that pro-choice people fight against laws that require the mother to see an ultrasound of their child before they kill it? Isn't knowing your baby is a bit more than tissue, or a ball of cells critical in making an informed decision?

The sad fact is that pro-"choice" people deliberately use language to muddy the waters. Its not a baby; its a ball of cells. Its not a child; its a bit of tissue.

Why is it so shocking for some people to learn that abortion stops a beating heart?

[Romy]

Having that child won't only ruin the mothers' lives, but the childrens' lives aswell.

Better dead than *possibly* miserable? Your logic is messed up.

 

Here's my first post on this thread:

 

I'm pro-choice.

 

 

 

 

 

I also hold a not-very-popular opinion about life. It's not as holy and critical as most like to think. There's a famous quote of ... I don't remember who and neither remember the exact wording, but they said they've been dead for billions and billions of years, and have been comfortable with it, so they aren't afraid of death.

I just think having a terrible life is worse than not having lived at all. And I also think having a child you do not wish to have / having a child you don't think you could support / having a child that could not handle the reality it's sent into = not a good idea.

 

The 2 thoughts combined equal being very pro-choice about it all. Not to mention the basic freedom we're taking away from women by not allowing them to have abortions.

 

 

Either way, and whatever the agenda towards abortion is, I don't think you (or anyone else for that matter) should have a say in whether abortions should be legal. The women who have them, decided to. They're probably well aware to the consequences, know what having an abortion means, know what not having an abortion means, and decide to have it anyway. Who are you to decide they should not?

Why is it that pro-choice people fight against laws that require the mother to see an ultrasound of their child before they kill it? Isn't knowing your baby is a bit more than tissue, or a ball of cells critical in making an informed decision?

The sad fact is that pro-"choice" people deliberately use language to muddy the waters. Its not a baby; its a ball of cells. Its not a child; its a bit of tissue.

Why is it so shocking for some people to learn that abortion stops a beating heart?

 

Any law requiring anyone to do something they do not want, is absurd. I'm all for ALLOWING women to watch it whenever, however, wherever. But having that REQUIRED? What?!

[assassin_696]

Why is it that pro-choice people fight against laws that require the mother to see an ultrasound of their child before they kill it? Isn't knowing your baby is a bit more than tissue, or a ball of cells critical in making an informed decision?

The sad fact is that pro-"choice" people deliberately use language to muddy the waters. Its not a baby; its a ball of cells. Its not a child; its a bit of tissue.

Why is it so shocking for some people to learn that abortion stops a beating heart?

 

Because that's a frankly disgusting trick used to play on the maternal instincts that a woman has. You know damn well that after a woman has seen an ultrasound of her foetus she's less likely to kill it, but that's purely based on a gut emotional response to seeing something living inside you and the fact that we've got millions of years of evolution hard-wired into mothers that says "protect your child". You're not helping her make a rational or informed decision, if she's decided to have an abortion that's a tough choice and you should respect her reasons. Why the hell would you show her a picture of her child, if there are some pyschological repurcussions to abortion I don't think that's going to help.

 

Calling it a "ball of cells" doesn't really muddy the waters because that's exactly what it is. It's also exactly what we are. The waters are already pretty muddy because everyone has a different opinion as to when you can consider a foetus a human being with the same legal rights as an adult. Personally I don't think there's an exact time, it should be roughly when the foetus has a good chance of surviving outside the mother's womb, but I'd be fairly generous in that time limit since it's a hard decision for any woman to make and it shouldn't be rushed.

[tortilliachp]

adding fuel to the fire here, because this debate is somewhat one-dimensional at this point:

 

1) i challenge you to consider over-population and the global consequences in killing future life when we exploit the world in non-sustainable ways.

 

2) i challenge you to consider the fact that abortion is a "low-class" phenomenon

 

3) I challenge you to consider that:

One of the biggest myths about adoption in Canada is that there are no Canadian children available for adoption. There are more than 78,000 children in the care of child welfare organizations across Canada. More than 30,000 of these children have parents whose parental rights have been terminated by the courts. What this usually means is that these children have no permanent family and will live in foster care or small institutional placements until they are legally of age.

 

4) I challenge you to consider that GLOBALLY an estimate of the number of total adoptions per year are 300 000. The Chinese take more than 10 million abortions every year.

 

this topic has become very polarized pro/con based on ideological concerns. considering reality creates very new challenges, that cause problems in your simple theoretical models of ow abortion works. what do you pragmatically do with children, when the situation is as complex as it is currently?

[magekillr]

Has anyone who wants to force women to watch an ultrasound of their fetus before they abort ever thought of the women who's child WILL die if they don't abort? Getting rid of a dead fetus from her uterus is an abortion. You want to make a woman (and her spouse, for that matter) be forced to go through more psychological pain? You want them to watch their fetus, that will die, that they know they will lose, before they lose it? No, of course you haven't. They only think of women who are [bleep]s, and should have just kept their legs closed. That's what this abortion debate has ALWAYS been about.

 

That's just sick. You're a disgusting misogynist, sees_all1.

 

edit:

 

here's an interesting link about how a lot of people who are against abortion eventually get one when the table's are turned. Their abortion is different; it always is:

 

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

 

One of my favorites:

 

"The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands)

[obfuscator]

Although I'm a staunch pro-lifer, I think it's a bit unreasonable to claim that ALL women regret their abortions. Some do, some don't.

[sees_all1]

Any law requiring anyone to do something they do not want, is absurd. I'm all for ALLOWING women to watch it whenever, however, wherever. But having that REQUIRED? What?!

I don't want to pay taxes. But if I don't, I'll be jailed. That's just absurd!

 

2) i challenge you to consider the fact that abortion is a "low-class" phenomenon

The African American population in the United States makes for 12.3% of the TOTAL population, but accounts for 37% of all abortions. Care to explain away that one for me?

 

Data was collected from the 2000 U.S. census.

http://www.abort73.com/abortion/abortion_and_race

 

 

From the CDC -

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_027.pdf

(page 30)

33.1% of women aged 18-44 in the United States have considered adoption.

14.3% of those women took steps to adopt.

23.2% of those women adopted.

Which means that ~1.09% of women in the United States, aged 18-44, have adopted. Frankly, I'm surprised the number is that high, considering how complicated and expensive it is (legally) to adopt.

The numbers that you've posted include ALL children. Typically when parents adopt, they want to adopt babies. There is more demand than supply for babies to adopt.

Another interesting statistic is that of those that took steps to adopt, "poor" people were 2.5-3.9x less likely to adopt.

 

People are willing to adopt babies. That isn't our problem now.

[magekillr]

The African American population in the United States makes for 12.3% of the TOTAL population, but accounts for 37% of all abortions. Care to explain away that one for me?

 

[tortilliachp]

 

People are willing to adopt babies. That isn't our problem now.

sorry, that's directly wrong.

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

 

UNITED STATES

 

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)

 

Likelihood of abortion:

An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old.

 

1% vs. 43% thus, you would need 43 times more women willing to adopt for the numbers to compare, if no one were to abort. 42% of un-aborted children in the US would be without parents.

 

thank you for also under-building my claim of abortions being a low-class phenomenon with facts :)

[Romy]

Any law requiring anyone to do something they do not want, is absurd. I'm all for ALLOWING women to watch it whenever, however, wherever. But having that REQUIRED? What?!

I don't want to pay taxes. But if I don't, I'll be jailed. That's just absurd!

 

I just worded it wrong...

 

 

What I meant was basically that a law requiring someone to watch something that would largely affect their emotions, whilst they have to make a rational decision, is absurd.