Zamorakian Spear

[SirIzenhime]

It's called DPS, go learn about it.

[lordkafei]

It's called DPS, go learn about it.

 

Um, I know what damage per second is.

 

What I want you guys to do is support your claims. All it boils down to so far is argumentum ad verecundiam. Not a one of you has shown any number, guide or anything to back it up. It's just because you all say so - back it up.

 

Not a single one of you has provided so much as an XP per hour rate to back up what you are claiming.

 

It's not my job to back up your claims - I dispute them. That's the way the world works. :wink:

[Sir_Squab]

Dragon battleaxe:

 

Stab -2 Stab 0

Slash 70 Slash 0

Crush 65 Crush 0

Magic 0 Magic 0

Range 0 Range -1

Strength 85.0

 

Rune Defender:

 

Stab 20 Stab 20

Slash 19 Slash 19

Crush 18 Crush 18

Magic -3 Magic -3

Range -2 Range -2

Strength: 5

 

Leaf-bladed Sword:

 

Stab 67 Stab 0

Slash 62 Slash 0

Crush 0 Crush 0

Magic 0 Magic 0

Range 0 Range 0

Strength: 50

 

Zamorak Spear:

 

Stab 85 Stab 13

Slash 65 Slash 13

Crush 65 Crush 12

Magic 0 Magic 0

Range 0 Range 13

Strength 75.0

 

First, Leaf-bladed Sword + Rune Defender (LBS + RD) vs Zamorakian Spear (ZS) using Stabbing attack.

 

LBS + RD Stab 67 +20 = 87 Stab. Strength: 50 + 5 = 55.

ZS: 85 Stab. Strength: 75.

 

We have a 2.4% (rounded) stab bonus in favour of the LBS + RD combination. We have a 36% Strength bonus in favour of the ZS.

Speed: I could not find the speed of the LBS listed in the RS manual. I am assuming they have the same speed of normal swords, which is 6 bars, or max melee weapon speed. Since the ZS is also listed as having 6 bars or max melee weapon speed, we eliminate speed from the LBS + RS vs ZS debate.

 

Conclusion: The sword and defender combination has about 2.4% accuracy bonus, vs a 36% Strength bonus. Seeing how much larger the Strength bonus is on the spear, we can conclude that the spear is the superior weapon.

 

Next.

 

Dragon Battle Axe + Rune Defender (DBA + RD) vs Zamorakian Spear (ZS) using crush.

 

DBA + RD Crush: 65 + 18 = 83 Crush. Strength: 85 + 5 = 90.

ZS: 65 crush 75 str.

 

We have a 27.7% (rounded) crush bonus in favour of the DBA + RD combination. We have a 20% Strength bonus in favour of the DBA + RD combination.

Speed: battle axes have a speed of 4, while the ZS has a speed of 6. This is a 6/4 or 3/2 ratio in favour of the ZS. The ZS is 50% faster.

 

Conclusion: We have a 27.&% bonus in favour of Strength and a 20% bonus of accuracy in favour of the DBA + RD combination. Multiplying the two together, we get a 53.2% bonus in favour of the DBA + RD combination. Therefore, this combination has a 53.2% bonus attack per attack against the Spear. However, the spear has a 50% speed bonus.

 

I am assuming, for easy math, a base hit of 10. Using the DBA + RD combination, we would get TWO hits with a 53.2% bonus. We would hit 153 twice, a total of 306 damage. The ZS has a base hit of 10, but would hit THREE times, a total damage of 300. According to this math, the DBA + RD combination is not only cheaper, but slightly better.

 

However, as any high level player will know or realize, there comes a point when accuracy stops mattering so much. Once a certain attack level is reached, differences in attack bonuses generally become negligible, except on certain foes. I am assuming for higher levels that the 20% accuracy bonus becomes somewhat negligible, therefore making the ZS the preferred higher level weapon. This IS an assumption.

 

(It's also worth noting, that, again in my opinion, a 0 with a faster weapon is less bad then a 0 with a slower weapon, as if you hit a 0 with a faster weapon, your next chance to hit comes sooner. This is just an opinion.)

 

The best solution would be to have actual TESTS for both of these weapons on waterfiends. I am of the opinion that the ZS will win; the exception being low leveled characters that would probably find waterfiends too difficult to fight in the first place.

[Aiel]

It's called DPS, go learn about it.

 

Um, I know what damage per second is.

 

What I want you guys to do is support your claims. All it boils down to so far is argumentum ad verecundiam. Not a one of you has shown any number, guide or anything to back it up. It's just because you all say so - back it up.

 

Not a single one of you has provided so much as an XP per hour rate to back up what you are claiming.

 

It's not my job to back up your claims - I dispute them. That's the way the world works. :wink:

lets assume 100% accuracy and you always max.

 

Zamorakian spears and LBS are speed 6 while DBA is speed 4.

 

A speed 6 weapon hits once ever 2.4 seconds, where as a speed 4 weapon hits once every 3.6 seconds.

 

On task, with 99 strength, piety, super strength potions, and a strength bonus of +107, a zamorakian spear maxes at 473, giving it a theoretical DPS of 197.08.

On task, with 99 strength, piety, super strength potions, and a strength bonus of +87, a leafbladed sword maxes at 418, giving it a theoretical DPS of 174.2.

On task, with 99 strength, piety, super strength potions, and a strength bonus of +122, a Dragon battle axe maxes at 514, giving it a theoretical DPS of 142.77.

 

There is an 11.61% difference in theoretical DPS between the ZS+LBS.

There is a 27.56% difference in theoretical DPS between the ZS+DBA.

 

LBS+rune def has a accuracy bonus +87 stab.

ZS has an accuracy bonus of +85 stab and +65 crush.

DBA+rune defender has an accuracy bonus of +83 crush.

 

In order for LBS+r def to beat a ZS, you need to hit 0s with the ZS 88.39% of the time.

In order for the DBA+r def to beat a ZS, you need to hit 0s with the ZS, 72.44% of the time.

 

So unless you have very low attack, or are fighting a very high defense monster, ZS is better.

 

edit: aww rawr beat me too it. Kafei just got math'd.

[anonymouse_]

It's called DPS, go learn about it.

He's just trollin

[Troacctid]

The best solution would be to have actual TESTS for both of these weapons on waterfiends. I am of the opinion that the ZS will win; the exception being low leveled characters that would probably find waterfiends too difficult to fight in the first place.

I can provide at least one good source there. Here's Qeltar's experiment comparing the Zammy Spear with the Sara Sword for killing waterfiends:

http://runescoop.com/html/rs_TheRuneScoopLaboratoryReport2.htm

 

There's no dragon battleaxe there, but you've got some figures for the spear.

[lordkafei]

...

 

The best solution would be to have actual TESTS for both of these weapons on waterfiends. I am of the opinion that the ZS will win; the exception being low leveled characters that would probably find waterfiends too difficult to fight in the first place.

 

Thank you [all three] for your detailed responses. It beats hell out of the RS version of this.

 

I am going later and doing a 1 hr sample at both aquanites & waterfiends using my low-budget gear. I will edit this post when I get it done.

[SirIzenhime]

It beats hell out of the RS version of this.

 

Ok..I honestly don't get it... :???:

[Aiel]

It beats hell out of the RS version of this.

 

Ok..I honestly don't get it... :???:

"thats the way its always been done so thats the way it needs to be done" except this isn't relevant to RS because its widely tested by thousands of users, I'm pretty sure we know what the better way is.

 

edit:

 

I'll just add this as an outside reference:

 

from Runewiki:

 

"Using the Dragon battleaxe along with a rune defender will provide a fairly high crush accuracy and strength bonus along with some range defence, making this a rather useful combination, comparable and sometimes better than the Saradomin sword or the Zamorakian spear. Although the crush attack bonus for a dragon battleaxe and rune defender is higher than that of a Zamorakian spear, players will get more kills per hour with a Zamorakian spear because of its faster attack speed."

[Goldenjkered]

They are quite useful for slayer, as they can be used on tasks like; Waterfiends, Aquanites and then if you have super antifires, you can use it on every dragon task you get :thumbsup:

[D Jay99]

Lordkafei, youre seriously underestimating speed.

Godswords have been proven worse (even though it's usually only a little bit) than zs/ss. Godswords are the same speed as battleaxes and have higher bonuses.

 

As for lbs+defender versus zs, youre trading 20 strength bonus for 2 stab bonus if you use lbs. Use your common sense please, that 2 stab is never going to be better.

 

Don't have any xp/hour rates for you (well I do but that's all on task and with steel titan so not really comparable) but the above should be enough proof.

 

Anyway, off topic this.

Yes it is worth buying if you slay/corp. If you don't, no not worth buying.

[Sinkhan]

In light of all teh maths and other stoofs which are all important and whatnot, can we also agree that the attack animation and the z spear itself looks damn cool? Don't tell me that's not something worth considering when people buy treasure trail items or bandos armour (heh heh jk :rolleyes: )

[lordkafei]

OK, I've taken my 1 hour sample at waterfiends using this setup:

 

 

I walked out with 74 charms of various colors, so I killed at least 74 fiends.

 

Raw XP, 60 mins: 52401

subtract 5 high alchs @ 65: 325

Refined XP per hour: 52076 per hour

 

This was normal killing, no slayer XP involved & also no full slayer helm bonus. I used the d baxe special and protect from range, no overloads. Max hit calc shows 369.

 

Now I admit, comparing my rate to Qeltar's is like comparing apples to oranges - I don't know his stats when he wrote his report. A truer comparison would require me to borrow a spear and test for an hour. If I have time later, I may.

 

But the evidence points to ZS being really no better than a d baxe + rune def. The vaunted ZS speed is being equalized by other factors and the XP rates are not substantially different, at least at waterfiends.

 

The cold hard truth.

 

Next test: aquanites

[mujammil]

OK, I've taken my 1 hour sample at waterfiends using this setup:

 

 

I walked out with 74 charms of various colors, so I killed at least 74 fiends.

 

Raw XP, 60 mins: 52401

subtract 5 high alchs @ 65: 325

Refined XP per hour: 52076 per hour

 

This was normal killing, no slayer XP involved & also no full slayer helm bonus. I used the d baxe special and protect from range, no overloads. Max hit calc shows 369.

 

Now I admit, comparing my rate to Qeltar's is like comparing apples to oranges - I don't know his stats when he wrote his report. A truer comparison would require me to borrow a spear and test for an hour. If I have time later, I may.

 

But the evidence points to ZS being really no better than a d baxe + rune def. The vaunted ZS speed is being equalized by other factors and the XP rates are not substantially different, at least at waterfiends.

 

The cold hard truth.

 

Next test: aquanites

 

Umm, you do relise you forgot to minus HP xp, which kinda reduces the xp you think you hve by.... A LOT? Simple fact ZS beats DBA by far.

[Obtaurian]

A one hour test proves nothing, especially taking into consideration human error (beginning with your atrocious equipment). A maxed player using the best equipment, potions, and prayer will find that the ZS and SS are superior to the DBA+rune defender. As others have said, accuracy becomes irrelevant at a certain point. Speed wins.

[SirIzenhime]

OK, I've taken my 1 hour sample at waterfiends using this setup:

 

 

I walked out with 74 charms of various colors, so I killed at least 74 fiends.

 

Raw XP, 60 mins: 52401

subtract 5 high alchs @ 65: 325

Refined XP per hour: 52076 per hour

 

This was normal killing, no slayer XP involved & also no full slayer helm bonus. I used the d baxe special and protect from range, no overloads. Max hit calc shows 369.

 

Now I admit, comparing my rate to Qeltar's is like comparing apples to oranges - I don't know his stats when he wrote his report. A truer comparison would require me to borrow a spear and test for an hour. If I have time later, I may.

 

But the evidence points to ZS being really no better than a d baxe + rune def. The vaunted ZS speed is being equalized by other factors and the XP rates are not substantially different, at least at waterfiends.

 

The cold hard truth.

 

Next test: aquanites

 

Considering you didn't even test it with a ZS, and it was only 1 hour....that has to be probably the most one sided test I've ever seen. =D>

How about you go with that same setup, but with a Spear, and tell us the results for that. Also, change the time from being 1 hour, to 10+ at the very least.

[Obtaurian]

Even changing the setup, the results will be wildly sporadic. He's using DBA specs for Christ's sake. :rolleyes: My frustration isn't directed towards you, SirIzenhime.

 

EDIT: I thought I sounded like I was being confrontational towards you, so I put that disclaimer in there. I guess it didn't work.

[SirIzenhime]

when did I say it was? I don't recall quoting you and refuting you :???:

[lordkafei]

Considering you didn't even test it with a ZS, and it was only 1 hour....that has to be probably the most one sided test I've ever seen. =D>

How about you go with that same setup, but with a Spear, and tell us the results for that. Also, change the time from being 1 hour, to 10+ at the very least.

 

As I said myself, thanks for acknowledging. Loan me one for 2 hours?

 

BTW, Qeltar tested for 20 minutes each setup to come up with his report figures. And I was loafing - drafting my forum post, picking up every water rune, etc. I could have bumped mine up a bit had I been super-focused.

 

But hey - at least the spear looks good. The perfect accessory for pixel huggers who have money to blow on style.

[SirIzenhime]

I could loan you one if you want, but it'll have to wait 3 hours, since I just lent out my SGS for 3 hours.

[D Jay99]

Do you even realize how low 50k xp/hour is with maxed stats?

[lordkafei]

Do you even realize how low 50k xp/hour is with maxed stats?

 

Relativism. Gotta love it.

 

I looked at Qeltar's stats, BTW and he's 99 in the stats that matter, as I am. So comparing my rates to his is really not so apples-and-oranges after all. And he got about 1700 more xp an hour with a ZS as I got with d baxe + rune def.

 

But dayam that animation looks good. :razz:

 

I could loan you one if you want, but it'll have to wait 3 hours, since I just lent out my SGS for 3 hours.

 

Thanks. I'll troll around for one later when I can be serious and not answer the phone, etc. Might even buy one and flip it back.

[SirIzenhime]

As far as I know, they're stable in price, so flipping wouldn't be too hard I would think :thumbup:

[Sinkhan]

 

But dayam that animation looks good. :razz:

 

 

Hooray! Someone who also admits it :D

[mujammil]

Can i just reiterate.... he didn't get 57k xp/hour... he forgot about hp XP LOL