Gun Control

[Furah]

I like it that way. Guns incite their use. You can't make stupid decisions with a gun if you don't carry one (opposed to ppl saing "guns don't kill people, bad decisions do" ) and when legal guns are not (or limited) available, getting one ILLEGAL is harder as wel (as posted before).

Hardly. go to a shady bar, look for the thug types, buy them a few drinks and getting a gun is as easy as having cash and asking for something that goes bang.

[Ginger_Warrior]

That's not the original point he made. There are so many strawman arguments on this page alone you could set them on fire and melt Chicago.

[Furah]

He is saying when it's hard to legally obtain guns it's hard to illegally obtain them. I'm saying it's not.

[Ginger_Warrior]

He said it makes it harder, not necessarily hard enough. Frankly, when anything has to be smuggled into a country rather than legally mass produced, it *will* make it harder to obtain one however slight that difficulty may be due to the criminal, covert nature of the transaction. This is a common sense argument. Please don't tell me you honestly believe otherwise.

 

And of gun ownership inciting their use?

[Zierro]

He said it makes it harder, not necessarily hard enough. Frankly, when anything has to be smuggled into a country rather than legally mass produced, it *will* make it harder to obtain one however slight that difficulty may be due to the criminal, covert nature of the transaction. This is a common sense argument. Please don't tell me you honestly believe otherwise.

 

And of gun ownership inciting their use?

 

Sure, it might force criminals to go through a couple more loops, but I think it's commonsense that a lot of them inevitably *will* obtain guns some way or another (smuggling). A ban on guns would be a catalyst to a flourishing smuggling scene, which is a huge problem within itself. So maybe guns would require extra steps to obtain, but this would also mean that there will be more crime circumventing the situation because those extra steps would cause whole new problems. Did I mention that these underground smuggling crooks would be fully armed?

[obfuscator]

He said it makes it harder, not necessarily hard enough. Frankly, when anything has to be smuggled into a country rather than legally mass produced, it *will* make it harder to obtain one however slight that difficulty may be due to the criminal, covert nature of the transaction. This is a common sense argument. Please don't tell me you honestly believe otherwise.

 

And of gun ownership inciting their use?

 

Sure, it might force criminals to go through a couple more loops, but I think it's commonsense that a lot of them inevitably *will* obtain guns some way or another (smuggling). A ban on guns would be a catalyst to a flourishing smuggling scene, which is a huge problem within itself. So maybe guns would require extra steps to obtain, but this would also mean that there will be more crime circumventing the situation because those extra steps would cause whole new problems. Did I mention that these underground smuggling crooks would be fully armed?

Yes, in Canada I do routinely find myself beset by gangs of gun runners. Just the other day they broke into my house toting surface to air missiles, drank all my beer, and crapped in my sink.

[Ember]

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[garm22]

Guns should be made almost entirely un-acquirable to the public. Consider the following: how many gang members have assault rifles? Almost none. Why? Because those kinds of guns are kept very far away from civilian hands. If handguns were given the same steep inaccessibility, criminals wouldn't have them either. I wouldn't mind if there were guns that you could be loaned out at shooting ranges and for hunting season- so long as they were kept careful track of.

 

Also, a short story

--------------------------------------------

 

PART 1

Billie Thorton was a normal, if sheltered young teen. He knew that a senior was having a big party, and he also knew that there was no way that his parents would let him go. But Billie was determined that tonight, he would live a little. And so he devised a simple plot. His parents went to bed at 10:00 PM every night on the dot. He would simply wait for them to be soundly asleep, and he would sneak out of the house, and be back in a few hours- neither of them would suspect him of a thing. Perfect.

 

Billie snuck out as planned. And the party was more than he had imagined it would be. There must have been a hundred people in that suburban house and yard. Lots of older kids, loud music, alcohol. He took particular note of this third aspect to the party. Not in his wildest dreams would his parents let him have a drink. When he was 13, he had asked for a sip of champagne on new years. His mother had an angry look for a second and said "absolutely not! You wait until you're 21. There is a reason for that law, you know!". Of course Billy would take this opportunity for the glory of... wait a second. This beer actually tastes kind of gross. With a sour note on his face, Billy made a mental note not to drink any of that again. Well, his mom would be pleased he supposed.

 

After some time, he made his way back home, already reminiscent of the sights and sounds of that night. He got home, crept quietly up the front porch. Slowly, and carefully opened the door, stepped in onto the linolium, and gently closed the door behind him. He took his shoes off, stepped once, twice- a stumble and a crack as something hit the floor. He groaned. He had tripped over his dad's work boots, and caught his balance on the small table next to the closet. In doing so, he had knocked over his mom's vase. After taking a moment to catch his breathe from the adrenaline stimulating moment, he inspected the damage.

 

The thing hadn't shattered. Nor was there a spiderweb of new lines on it, threatening to make it fall apart in his hands. Instead, there was one crack running all the way from top to bottom. He couldn't hide it, nor would he want to. He realized that the right thing to do would be to apologize for this right away. The longer he left it, the less his parents would believe his sincerity. And so he began the slow, and dreaded climb to the top of the stairs, and to whatever trial would await him when he confessed everything to his parents.

 

PART 2

Mr. Thorton was a simple, hard working man. His wife and child were his world. He devoted himself to giving them a happy life. That's why, when he woke with a start at the sound of a crash downstairs, their safety was the first flash of thought that came to him. He strained his ears and his thoughts. He had moved into this neighborhood specifically because it was so friendly and crimeless! But no, as sure as he was of anything, he was sure he heard someone moving around downstairs.

 

His wife was obviously lying next to him, and his son never ventured down except for a glass of milk from the kitchen. This sound was from the front door, not the kitchen. Riddled with anxiety, but clearminded in what he needed to protect, he climbed out from under the covers, and kneeled down in front of the bed. From under it, he pulled a small briefcase, and unlocked it with the combination he thought he would never need. He respectfully pulled his loaded .44 magnum from its resting place and- the invader was moving! It was heading up the stairs, seemingly cautiously. Trying to avoid waking the family up? Whatever the case, Mr. Thorton's door was the first one at the top of the landing, and he suspected this would be the first room the intruder would enter.

 

Keenly aware of things- his own baited breathe, the slow and slight step of the intruder, his wife's gentle breathing beside him- he waited for an eternity of a few seconds. A hand on the doorknob, Mr. Thorton tightens his grip on the gun. A dark figure slips into the room.

 

BANG

BANG

 

The dark form slumps and falls to a heap on the floor.

[Ember]

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[garm22]

And this is why we identify targets. :roll:

 

Nobody's perfect. Especially in the heat of the moment.

[Giordano]

And this is why we identify targets. :roll:

 

tl;dr Kids sneaks off to a party, returns late at night and Dad shoots him because he thinks its a burglar?

 

He assumed too much, didn't let his son live a little, and believed teenagers were obedient little slaves. The idiot.

[obfuscator]

But the important thing is that he is an idiot, so he deserved the loss of his son, right?

[das1330]

But the important thing is that he is an idiot, so he deserved the loss of his son, right?

 

The important thing is that the story is a fictional supposition which is additionally simply not true on an overall statistical basis - guns improve safety more then they harm it. Statistically speaking, having a pool in the back yard is 9 times more dangerous then a gun on the nightstand.

[obfuscator]

But the important thing is that he is an idiot, so he deserved the loss of his son, right?

 

The important thing is that the story is a fictional supposition which is additionally simply not true on an overall statistical basis - guns improve safety more then they harm it. Statistically speaking, having a pool in the back yard is 9 times more dangerous then a gun on the nightstand.

Statistically speaking, a pool has a purpose other than killing.

 

Also statistically speaking, a pool also can't be stolen by someone who wishes to use it for ill.

[Range_This11]

Fictional stories and hypothetical situations are only okay if they show the positive side of gun ownership, didn't you know that?

[Sir_Redhead]

As an avid gun owner, and a frequent user of them, the laws that are getting passed are hurting safe users like myself. I shoot trap, skeet, action pistol, Steel challenges, and hunt. I see a lot of people posting about Americans like myself being "crazy gun owning killing machines". Which is completely false.

 

Everything I own is legal and registered. I take great care of them, and use them all frequently.

 

Most crimes are committed using knives (Muggings, Robbery's, etc...) You can look up the statistics yourself. The ones committed with a firearm are often firearms that were not purchased legally, are not registered, etc... So the laws that are passed, hurt safe gun owners like myself, and do nothing to remotely slow down the criminal.

 

If guns kill people, pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons make people fat.

 

I find a firearm an extension of myself. I find it safer to use a firearm at a range then walk down the road, or even ride my bike 20ft down the road.

 

Does that make me a murderer? No. Does that make a bad person? No.

 

I'm not saying you have to like guns, or even look at one. I just ask that people look at things and try to understand what the ones following the laws, like myself, have to deal with.

[obfuscator]

As an avid gun owner, and a frequent user of them, the laws that are getting passed are hurting safe users like myself. I shoot trap, skeet, action pistol, Steel challenges, and hunt. I see a lot of people posting about Americans like myself being "crazy gun owning killing machines". Which is completely false.

 

Everything I own is legal and registered. I take great care of them, and use them all frequently.

 

Most crimes are committed using knives (Muggings, Robbery's, etc...) You can look up the statistics yourself. The ones committed with a firearm are often firearms that were not purchased legally, are not registered, etc... So the laws that are passed, hurt safe gun owners like myself, and do nothing to remotely slow down the criminal.

 

If guns kill people, pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons make people fat.

 

I find a firearm an extension of myself. I find it safer to use a firearm at a range then walk down the road, or even ride my bike 20ft down the road.

 

Does that make me a murderer? No. Does that make a bad person? No.

 

I'm not saying you have to like guns, or even look at one. I just ask that people look at things and try to understand what the ones following the laws, like myself, have to deal with.

 

That's the problem with the "half-ass" approach - it does nothing to restrict criminals but it does end up restricting responsible users like yourself.

 

That's why firm, realistic controls are needed - because then they will restrict criminals. You're obviously a conscientious person who's well educated in the use of firearms and uses them responsibly, I'm sure. The bottom line is that not everyone is like that; and when firearms are so readily available, a lot of people who shouldn't have them get them, easily.

[Sir_Redhead]

As an avid gun owner, and a frequent user of them, the laws that are getting passed are hurting safe users like myself. I shoot trap, skeet, action pistol, Steel challenges, and hunt. I see a lot of people posting about Americans like myself being "crazy gun owning killing machines". Which is completely false.

 

Everything I own is legal and registered. I take great care of them, and use them all frequently.

 

Most crimes are committed using knives (Muggings, Robbery's, etc...) You can look up the statistics yourself. The ones committed with a firearm are often firearms that were not purchased legally, are not registered, etc... So the laws that are passed, hurt safe gun owners like myself, and do nothing to remotely slow down the criminal.

 

If guns kill people, pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons make people fat.

 

I find a firearm an extension of myself. I find it safer to use a firearm at a range then walk down the road, or even ride my bike 20ft down the road.

 

Does that make me a murderer? No. Does that make a bad person? No.

 

I'm not saying you have to like guns, or even look at one. I just ask that people look at things and try to understand what the ones following the laws, like myself, have to deal with.

 

That's the problem with the "half-ass" approach - it does nothing to restrict criminals but it does end up restricting responsible users like yourself.

 

That's why firm, realistic controls are needed - because then they will restrict criminals. You're obviously a conscientious person who's well educated in the use of firearms and uses them responsibly, I'm sure. The bottom line is that not everyone is like that; and when firearms are so readily available, a lot of people who shouldn't have them get them, easily.

 

Living in northern N.Y makes me thing even worse for me. Most of our political system is based out of NYC (Which has a population 80 times higher than my entire county), where people are scared of any sort of firearm. So everyone shouts "Ban guns, they kill people!" and "Ban hunting! It's wrong!" When people like myself use firearms responsibly, more or less for sport. We may hunt for fun, not the "Shoot everything in sight" kind of fun, but the "I can't wait to get that 8-point buck, and I love the taste of Venison (Which is delicious)"

 

There's always an issue with the laws, there always will be. Stricter laws may slow down the criminal, but it won't stop them. The main issue with strict laws, is the responsible firearm owners are slowed down, if not stopped completely. There will never be a simple mediation, which is disappointing.

[Sir_Redhead]

Yes I would object. I have no need for a tank thats why I don't care if its illegal. What I do care about is my home protection, and personal protection. I am a concealed carry license holder and carry a gun anywhere I go (except unlawful places like school, stores with posted signs etc). I also love to hunt, shoot on the range, and collect firearms. So yes, I would object strongly if they were illegal. It only takes that one time not carrying to end up dead. Better safe then sorry.

 

Trigger happy soldiers are not the only ones. There are far more crimes in the streets (Oakland, LA, NY, Baltimore) then most people realize. The difference? Those are illegal guns, serial numbers scratched off, and the person using it has no formal training. A little firearms safety classes go along way. I was given my first gun at the age of 12, but I was also taught how to use it properly and was restricted to when I could even touch it. The problem is people making stupid decisions with a gun. Its that stupid decision to leave the safe unlocked with kids in the house, or to shoot the guy that honked his horn at you. Stupid decisions kill people, not guns.

 

 

Amen.

 

That's exactly how I was raised.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Sir_Redhead

[das1330]

At this point has anyone submitted evidence of a causal link between guns and crime? I know plenty exists to the contrary, but I still have not seen any proof.

[Ember]

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[Ginger_Warrior]

It's unclear whether there's any causal link between guns and crime. This not only means guns don't cause crime, they don't prevent it either. It really is a stupid point for someone who is anti-gun control to bring up.

[Zierro]

He said it makes it harder, not necessarily hard enough. Frankly, when anything has to be smuggled into a country rather than legally mass produced, it *will* make it harder to obtain one however slight that difficulty may be due to the criminal, covert nature of the transaction. This is a common sense argument. Please don't tell me you honestly believe otherwise.

 

And of gun ownership inciting their use?

 

Sure, it might force criminals to go through a couple more loops, but I think it's commonsense that a lot of them inevitably *will* obtain guns some way or another (smuggling). A ban on guns would be a catalyst to a flourishing smuggling scene, which is a huge problem within itself. So maybe guns would require extra steps to obtain, but this would also mean that there will be more crime circumventing the situation because those extra steps would cause whole new problems. Did I mention that these underground smuggling crooks would be fully armed?

Yes, in Canada I do routinely find myself beset by gangs of gun runners. Just the other day they broke into my house toting surface to air missiles, drank all my beer, and crapped in my sink.

 

You are aware that my arguments are directed towards what would happen in the US, the place where citizens (Average Joe's and John Doe's alike) believe guns to be their God-given right and possess the innate tendency to revolt (as demonstrated through precedent), as I've pointed out to you specifically, yet you keep thinking your hometown is a great universal example of what would happen anywhere else in the world if the same laws were applied. All I have to say is you're jumping the gun.

[Ember]

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[Ginger_Warrior]

I'm on a mobile until my Internet gets sorted out so I can't do much except plain text. I can't even edit or put smileys in :/

 

Violent crime has fallen in the UK over the past 35 years too, and in that time we've banned the bloody things. I'd be interested to see other country's data but I'm reasonably confident they'll also show decreased murder rates in just about every developed, politically stable country on Earth. Another case of correlation not necessarily meaning causation.