Project Gun Runner and Operation Fast and Furious

[Range_This11]

 

I am well aware that weapons are bought and sold illegally in America and often wind up south of the border BUT THAT DOES NOT ABSOLVE ATF FROM RESPONSIBILITY. It is so frustrating to watch people try to justify the authorized sale of illegal weapons to Mexican drug Cartel with the only logic being "Uh, well dude, they would have gotten them anyway, so it's all good." NO, it is not okay under any circumstances for an entity of the United States government to sell illegal weapons to known international criminals.

 

It's just not as big a deal as people are making it. It makes for a funny/embarrassing news story, but it isn't that big of a deal.

I don't see the reasoning behind selling high powered weapons to international criminals as a means to catch them. Maybe that's just me.

[sees_all1]

I don't see the reasoning behind selling high powered weapons to international criminals as a means to catch them. Maybe that's just me.

no no no... see you don't get it. There's 4 steps to this process:

1. We sell them the guns.

2. We wait to see where they pop up.

4. We confiscate the guns.

[marcustullius]

I don't see the reasoning behind selling high powered weapons to international criminals as a means to catch them. Maybe that's just me.

no no no... see you don't get it. There's 4 steps to this process:

1. We sell them the guns.

2. We wait to see where they pop up.

4. We confiscate the guns.

 

#3 is when they commit a murder with the gun we trace it back to whoever bought it. Genius!

[Range_This11]

I don't see the reasoning behind selling high powered weapons to international criminals as a means to catch them. Maybe that's just me.

no no no... see you don't get it. There's 4 steps to this process:

1. We sell them the guns.

2. We wait to see where they pop up.

4. We confiscate the guns.

 

#3 is when they commit a murder with the gun we trace it back to whoever bought it. Genius!

Yeah like those pesky Mexican police officers that are trying to take down the Cartel. I'm sure they'd love to hear how the ATF is supplying their killers.

[Wisp]

I am not denying that the ATF messed up, and made stupid choices, but these Cartels would have obtained guns by other means. Blaming the ATF for these deaths directly is a stretch.

If the Cartel are using weapons and ammunition illegally bought from shops in which the ATF authorized illegal sales, then yes, the blood is on the ATF's hands. There is no way that the blame can be placed, or for that matter, reduced by any degree, anywhere else but on the ATF.

Oh, I dunno, how about placing the blame on the killers?

[Range_This11]

I am not denying that the ATF messed up, and made stupid choices, but these Cartels would have obtained guns by other means. Blaming the ATF for these deaths directly is a stretch.

If the Cartel are using weapons and ammunition illegally bought from shops in which the ATF authorized illegal sales, then yes, the blood is on the ATF's hands. There is no way that the blame can be placed, or for that matter, reduced by any degree, anywhere else but on the ATF.

Oh, I dunno, how about placing the blame on the killers?

Aren't we already accepting that these people are going to kill anyways? We're not discussing whether or not justice should be exacted on known criminals, I figured that went without saying. We're discussing to what degree the ATF should be blamed for murders caused by illegal weapons sales, and to that I say they should be fully responsible.

[marcustullius]

 

Aren't we already accepting that these people are going to kill anyways? We're not discussing whether or not justice should be exacted on known criminals, I figured that went without saying. We're discussing to what degree the ATF should be blamed for murders caused by illegal weapons sales, and to that I say they should be fully responsible.

 

I don't think you can ever say one organization is responsible for them getting guns when gun laws are so loose.

[Range_This11]

 

Aren't we already accepting that these people are going to kill anyways? We're not discussing whether or not justice should be exacted on known criminals, I figured that went without saying. We're discussing to what degree the ATF should be blamed for murders caused by illegal weapons sales, and to that I say they should be fully responsible.

 

I don't think you can ever say one organization is responsible for them getting guns when gun laws are so loose.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt the last time because I enjoy debating, but this is the worst attempt of a troll I have ever seen in my life.

[jasignhagj]

I am not denying that the ATF messed up, and made stupid choices, but these Cartels would have obtained guns by other means. Blaming the ATF for these deaths directly is a stretch.

If the Cartel are using weapons and ammunition illegally bought from shops in which the ATF authorized illegal sales, then yes, the blood is on the ATF's hands. There is no way that the blame can be placed, or for that matter, reduced by any degree, anywhere else but on the ATF.

Oh, I dunno, how about placing the blame on the killers?

 

This. Off topic a bit, but I was watching CNN last night, and they kept blaming the pastor who burnt the Koran for the attack on the UN compound, as if he did it himself.

 

Not sure where you're getting the 10k for an AK in the states though. Depending on the state, you can get a Eastern European one for less than 1k legally. Authentic Russian ones may run you a bit more, but they aren't that expensive.

[KittyKat]

I am not denying that the ATF messed up, and made stupid choices, but these Cartels would have obtained guns by other means. Blaming the ATF for these deaths directly is a stretch.

If the Cartel are using weapons and ammunition illegally bought from shops in which the ATF authorized illegal sales, then yes, the blood is on the ATF's hands. There is no way that the blame can be placed, or for that matter, reduced by any degree, anywhere else but on the ATF.

Oh, I dunno, how about placing the blame on the killers?

 

This. Off topic a bit, but I was watching CNN last night, and they kept blaming the pastor who burnt the Koran for the attack on the UN compound, as if he did it himself.

 

Not sure where you're getting the 10k for an AK in the states though. Depending on the state, you can get a Eastern European one for less than 1k legally. Authentic Russian ones may run you a bit more, but they aren't that expensive.

 

AKs are really expensive in North America due to high smuggling costs and really stiff penalties (both in Mexico and the US) so $10k is about right. Anywhere east of Poland, you can buy AKs for around hundred bucks, same as in North Eastern Africa and The Middle East. And as long as they aren't made in South East Asia or South America, an AK is an AK so don't bother paying for one that is Russian made.

[Wisp]

I am not denying that the ATF messed up, and made stupid choices, but these Cartels would have obtained guns by other means. Blaming the ATF for these deaths directly is a stretch.

If the Cartel are using weapons and ammunition illegally bought from shops in which the ATF authorized illegal sales, then yes, the blood is on the ATF's hands. There is no way that the blame can be placed, or for that matter, reduced by any degree, anywhere else but on the ATF.

Oh, I dunno, how about placing the blame on the killers?

 

This. Off topic a bit, but I was watching CNN last night, and they kept blaming the pastor who burnt the Koran for the attack on the UN compound, as if he did it himself.

 

Not sure where you're getting the 10k for an AK in the states though. Depending on the state, you can get a Eastern European one for less than 1k legally. Authentic Russian ones may run you a bit more, but they aren't that expensive.

 

AKs are really expensive in North America due to high smuggling costs and really stiff penalties (both in Mexico and the US) so $10k is about right. Anywhere east of Poland, you can buy AKs for around hundred bucks, same as in North Eastern Africa and The Middle East. And as long as they aren't made in South East Asia or South America, an AK is an AK so don't bother paying for one that is Russian made.

I'm talking about a legal full auto ak-47, so a pre-ban registered one. Black market is undoubtedly cheaper, but a gun store wouldn't be selling those.

http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc/ak47?set=30&sz=800x600

http://www.gunsamerica.com/946126068/Guns-For-Sale/Gun-Auctions/Rifles/Class-3-Rifles/Class-3-Subguns/AK47.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/985720344/Guns/Rifles/Class-3-Rifles/Class-3-Subguns/POLY_TECH_AK47.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/959157130/Guns/Rifles/Class-3-Rifles/Class-3-Subguns/Polytech_full_stock_AK47.htm

^examples.

[marcustullius]

 

Aren't we already accepting that these people are going to kill anyways? We're not discussing whether or not justice should be exacted on known criminals, I figured that went without saying. We're discussing to what degree the ATF should be blamed for murders caused by illegal weapons sales, and to that I say they should be fully responsible.

 

I don't think you can ever say one organization is responsible for them getting guns when gun laws are so loose.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt the last time because I enjoy debating, but this is the worst attempt of a troll I have ever seen in my life.

 

Disagreeing = trolling?

 

You act like it's such a travesty, but I don't see you getting angry at the fact that it's so easy for gun runners to get guns legally in the states in the first place.

[Range_This11]

 

Aren't we already accepting that these people are going to kill anyways? We're not discussing whether or not justice should be exacted on known criminals, I figured that went without saying. We're discussing to what degree the ATF should be blamed for murders caused by illegal weapons sales, and to that I say they should be fully responsible.

 

I don't think you can ever say one organization is responsible for them getting guns when gun laws are so loose.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt the last time because I enjoy debating, but this is the worst attempt of a troll I have ever seen in my life.

 

Disagreeing = trolling?

 

You act like it's such a travesty, but I don't see you getting angry at the fact that it's so easy for gun runners to get guns legally in the states in the first place.

Because that debate is not for this topic and if it gets brought up, this topic will turn into the same gun control debate we've had at least once a year since I've been here.

[marcustullius]

 

Because that debate is not for this topic and if it gets brought up, this topic will turn into the same gun control debate we've had at least once a year since I've been here.

 

I disagree it isn't for this topic, but now that you mention it, yes, it will turn into the age old argument

[sees_all1]

Sorry about the bump, but more stuff is going down.

 

Apparently these guns have found their way back into Arizona.

 

[hide=New Article]

from: http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/weapons-linked-to-controversial-atf-strategy-found-in-valley-crimes

PHOENIX - Weapons linked to a questionable government strategy are turning up in crimes in Valley neighborhoods.

 

For months the ABC15 Investigators have been searching through police reports and official government documents. Weve discovered assault weapons linked to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives controversial "Fast and Furious" case strategy have turned up at crime scenes in Glendale and Phoenix communities.

 

THE HISTORY

 

Phoenix ATF agents recently testified during a Congressional hearing that they knowingly allowed weapons to slip into the hands of straw buyers who would then distribute the weapons to known criminals.

 

The strategy was designed to lead ATF officials to key drug players in Mexico, but some agents admitted they never fully tracked the weapons after suspicious buyers purchased them.

 

It made no sense to us either, it was just what we were ordered to do, and every time we questioned that order there was punitive action, Phoenix Special Agent John Dodson testified.

 

According to the testimony of three Phoenix ATF agents, including Dodson, hundreds of weapons are now on the streets in the United States and Mexico, possibly in the hands of criminals.

 

Dodson estimated the number could be as many as 1,800 weapons.

 

Fast and Furious was one case from one group in one field division, he testified. He estimated agents in the Phoenix field division facilitated the sale of approximately 2,500 weapons to straw purchasers. A few hundred have been recovered.

 

THE ABC15 INVESTIGATION

 

Dodson guessed the majority of the missing weapons are in Mexico.

 

I believe that these firearms will continue to turn up at crime scenes on both sides of the border for years to come, testified Phoenix Special Agent Peter Forcelli.

 

Weapons linked to the strategy have been turning up at dangerous and deadly crime scenes near both sides of the border, including the murder scene of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry, who was killed last December.

 

The ABC15 Investigators uncovered documents showing guns connected to at least two Glendale criminal cases and at least two Phoenix criminal cases also appear in the ATFs Suspect Gun Database, a sort-of watch list for suspicious gun sales.

 

All four cases involve drug-related offenses. In one Glendale police report dated July 2010, police investigators working with DEA agents served search warrants at homes near 75th and Glendale avenues in Glendale, and 43rd and Glendale avenues in Phoenix as part of a large scale marijuana trafficking investigation.

 

Police investigators reported they obtained information that members of the (trafficking) organization were using the homesas stash houses used to store large amounts of marijuana temporarily.

 

They reported finding hundreds of pounds of marijuana, more than $63,000 in U.S. currency and three guns inside the homes. One of the recovered weapons, a Romarm/Cugir WASR-10 rifle, appeared in an official ATF Suspect Gun Summary document in November 2009, proving agents knowingly allowed the suspicious gun sale, months before the weapon turned up at the crime scene.

 

In a separate Glendale Police Department case, dated November 2010, detectives discovered bulk marijuana and weapons inside a residence near 75th Avenue and Bethany Home Road in Glendale. Investigators recovered nearly 400 pounds of drugs and several firearms from the home.

 

One of the recovered weapons, another Romarm/Cugir WASR-10 rifle, appeared in an official ATF Suspect Gun Summary document in February 2010.

 

PHOENIX CASES

 

The two Phoenix cases, also connected to drugs, occurred in March and August 2010.

 

In the August case, Phoenix officers conducted a traffic stop near 83rd Avenue and McDowell Road in Phoenix. They discovered marijuana and an AK-47 in the drivers trunk as well as other weapons.

 

One of the suspects explained he purchased the Romarm/Cugir Draco weapon for $600 on the street, but he wouldnt reveal from whom he purchased the gun. ATF documents show the weapon had been entered into the ATF Suspect Gun Database in January 2010.

 

Officers recovered an FN Herstal Five-Seven weapon in the March case. During that ongoing drug investigation, near 43rd Avenue and Camelback Road in Phoenix, officers had been conducting surveillance after receiving information that a suspect was selling methamphetamine and marijuana.

 

CONGRESSIONAL LEADER RESPONDS

 

With people like you down there in Arizona investigating this, said Sen. Chuck Grassley, (R-Iowa), and with Congressman Issa and this Senator on the case, they know were not going to give up.

 

Grassley has been demanding information from ATF leaders, trying to determine who had knowledge of the controversial strategy and when they knew.

 

His staff also sent public records requests to every sheriffs department in Arizona and several local Valley departments, requesting information about weapons that have turned up at Valley crime scenes that may have been connected to the Fast and Furious operation.

 

Who knows where theyre going to end up, Grassley said. Theres ample evidence even besides your own investigation that theyve been used in crimes on this side of the border, but how many? I cant give you a figure.

 

ATF RESPONSE

 

ATF representatives denied ABC15s open records request for documents showing other weapons connected to the Fast and Furious case that may have been involved in other crimes in the United States.

 

They also denied our request for an interview, saying the case is still under investigation.

[/hide]

 

 

I'd like to see whoever had this boneheaded idea, and whoever implemented it at the top level to be fired, and then tried as a criminal.

"'It made no sense to us either, it was just what we were ordered to do, and every time we questioned that order there was punitive action,' Phoenix Special Agent John Dodson testified."