Project Gun Runner and Operation Fast and Furious

[The Dark Lord]

This is hilarious.

[sees_all1]

The gun running topic was weak anyway, this one is much better and is actually relevant

There's the possibility that President Obama or Attorney General Eric Holder knew about it. If that's the case I bet this will receive much more attention.

[KittyKat]

But seriously, does anyone need an ak-47 in the first place?

 

Yeah, there are definitely legitimate uses, like defending yourself/your family. Knowing the way you post, you're probably going to tell me that a handgun, a can of pepper spray or a phone call to 911 would suffice, but from personal experience, that's not always the case. I grew up in a rough part of St. Petersburg and there was a string of really violent home invasions in which victims were raped, maimed, shot at, and even decapitated by a gang of armed criminals. So yeah, there are some non-sketchy scenarios in which a Kalashnikov would come in handy.

[marcustullius]

But seriously, does anyone need an ak-47 in the first place?

 

Yeah, there are definitely legitimate uses, like defending yourself/your family. Knowing the way you post, you're probably going to tell me that a handgun, a can of pepper spray or a phone call to 911 would suffice, but from personal experience, that's not always the case. I grew up in a rough part of St. Petersburg and there was a string of really violent home invasions in which victims were raped, maimed, shot at, and even decapitated by a gang of armed criminals. So yeah, there are some non-sketchy scenarios in which a Kalashnikov would come in handy.

 

Aaaaaand thread successfully derailed into oblivion

[KittyKat]

Not really. This thread is about gun smuggling and I'm noting morally just uses for the types of weapons mentioned in the article.

[obfuscator]

But seriously, does anyone need an ak-47 in the first place?

 

Yeah, there are definitely legitimate uses, like defending yourself/your family. Knowing the way you post, you're probably going to tell me that a handgun, a can of pepper spray or a phone call to 911 would suffice, but from personal experience, that's not always the case. I grew up in a rough part of St. Petersburg and there was a string of really violent home invasions in which victims were raped, maimed, shot at, and even decapitated by a gang of armed criminals. So yeah, there are some non-sketchy scenarios in which a Kalashnikov would come in handy.

Because the gang of armed criminals won't have Kalashnikov's as well, right?

[marcustullius]

Not really. This thread is about gun smuggling and I'm noting morally just uses for the types of weapons mentioned in the article.

 

Whenever someone brings up "well if they had a gun..." or guns are bad or guns are good, thread = derailed. See post above mine to see where this thread is now heading

[das1330]

America should really reconsider some of their drug laws...oh wait, making weed legal would hurt pharmaceutical companies

 

Arizona legalized medical marijuana.

 

A little spot in the constitution called the Supremacy Clause makes it so that Federal Law *which makes Marijuana illegal* oversees state laws which decriminalize it and allow it for medical use

 

and due to current administration policy, those states which legalize such drugs are being allowed to go their own way.

[Giordano]

But seriously, does anyone need an ak-47 in the first place?

 

Yeah, there are definitely legitimate uses, like defending yourself/your family. Knowing the way you post, you're probably going to tell me that a handgun, a can of pepper spray or a phone call to 911 would suffice, but from personal experience, that's not always the case. I grew up in a rough part of St. Petersburg and there was a string of really violent home invasions in which victims were raped, maimed, shot at, and even decapitated by a gang of armed criminals. So yeah, there are some non-sketchy scenarios in which a Kalashnikov would come in handy.

Because the gang of armed criminals won't have Kalashnikov's as well, right?

Again, why will the gun owner die and the peperspray guy won't? Just face it that both will die and we all each pick our weapon of defense.

[sees_all1]

Shrug. I don't know why there's so much outrage over this when it's most likely happening all the time anyways.

 

But seriously, does anyone need an ak-47 in the first place?

In a war zone? yes. However, I'm sure that most people will agree that whether or not that ownership of an AK47 in a civilized country is legitimate is a mute point - allowing members of the drug cartel to purchase AK47s to see where they'd end up is outright ridiculous.

[Blankblankblank]

How could they have dropped the ball that bad and not kept closer watch on those weapons? All it takes is for one really [bleep]ed up cartel member to use one of the .50 cals to take out a head of state or politician in an armored car before crap really flies off the handle. The ATF, once again showcasing government competence.

[das1330]

How could they have dropped the ball that bad and not kept closer watch on those weapons? All it takes is for one really [bleep]ed up cartel member to use one of the .50 cals to take out a head of state or politician in an armored car before crap really flies off the handle. The ATF, once again showcasing government competence.

 

 

you could argue that the ATF's actions here were completely proper, as the guns they released were not going to harm americans, and they were advancing justice in their jurisdiction through their own information collection program.

[Blankblankblank]

Mexicans are not any less valuable than Americans. The ATF is no better than the soldiers currently overseas shooting civilians and taking pictures next to them like trophies, when they allow high-powdered firearms to float about with criminals known for violence, and not even bothering to ensure those weapons can't be used to purport massacres or assassinations. Perhaps they are, and perhaps the article in question doesn't have the full scoop. But based on that information, it sure sounds like a botched job that can easily backfire with horrific repercussions.

[Wisp]

The ATF is no better than the soldiers currently overseas shooting civilians and taking pictures next to them like trophies

Huge over exaggeration. The murders mostly likely would still have happened regardless of the ATF.

[sees_all1]

The ATF is no better than the soldiers currently overseas shooting civilians and taking pictures next to them like trophies

Huge over exaggeration. The murders mostly likely would still have happened regardless of the ATF.

Maybe, but as a US citizen I would feel much better about them if I knew that they weren't sold the guns because of the ATF.

[Blankblankblank]

The ATF is no better than the soldiers currently overseas shooting civilians and taking pictures next to them like trophies

Huge over exaggeration. The murders mostly likely would still have happened regardless of the ATF.

 

 

Oh? You've worked with the Cartel and are aware their armory included .50 BMG ammunition that can cut through an armored personnel carrier before this incident? At least I should hope you're not going by Hollywood movies.

 

 

Even if they could obtain them otherwise, and in this case got them much easier, justifying allowing such armaments to walk with an organization responsible for horrific massacres in Mexico and all along the border of the U.S. is at best, disturbing.

[marcustullius]

 

Even if they could obtain them otherwise, and in this case got them much easier, justifying allowing such armaments to walk with an organization responsible for horrific massacres in Mexico and all along the border of the U.S. is at best, disturbing.

 

All supported by (mostly) the US citizens :wink:

[Wisp]

The ATF is no better than the soldiers currently overseas shooting civilians and taking pictures next to them like trophies

Huge over exaggeration. The murders mostly likely would still have happened regardless of the ATF.

 

 

Oh? You've worked with the Cartel and are aware their armory included .50 BMG ammunition that can cut through an armored personnel carrier before this incident? At least I should hope you're not going by Hollywood movies.

 

 

Even if they could obtain them otherwise, and in this case got them much easier, justifying allowing such armaments to walk with an organization responsible for horrific massacres in Mexico and all along the border of the U.S. is at best, disturbing.

.50bmg isn't some magical ammunition available only to the military and the sacred war gods. I could go to a store, having recently turned 18, and buy some. It's no more regulated in most states than .22 ammunition, and while I don't know exactly how easy it is to get in other countries, they wouldn't have a hard time obtaining it if they needed. And I highly doubt that any of the people who were killed were driving around in an APC. A bullet's a bullet. If your shot in the head or in a vital area by a 9mm, you're just as dead as being hit by a .50 BMG.

A look at some of the gun stashes confiscated by various agencies from Mexican cartels prior to this incident would show that they really can get whatever guns they want.

 

People need to stop making .50 BMG as some rare, highly difficult to find magical bullet, it's not even that great for crime compared to other rounds, since it makes a huge noise, you have to carry around a 30lb rifle, and the rifle costs close to 10 grand for a good one. News articles like to make a big deal about .50 BMG ammo, and even if only one or two rifles in that caliber were sold they would base most of their argument around it. In the same way the said "AK-47"s were bought, when I would bet the farm that they were just semi auto rifles, since a fully auto Ak-47 in the US will cost you 50x what you could get if for on the black market.

I know, again, it's a US website, but still. http://50bmgsupply.com/ammo.shtml You can buy some armor piercing incendiary .50BMG rounds online. I think a mexican drug cartel can manage to find them without the ATF's help.

 

I am not denying that the ATF messed up, and made stupid choices, but these Cartels would have obtained guns by other means. Blaming the ATF for these deaths directly is a stretch.

[No_M0re]

America should really reconsider some of their drug laws...oh wait, making weed legal would hurt pharmaceutical companies

 

Arizona legalized medical marijuana.

 

One state legalizing it under strict rules isn't what I was talking about. I remember reading about pharmaceutical companies manufacturing synthetic marijuana to sell as well, funny how weed is supposedly bad enough to make illegal, but beneficial enough that pharmaceutical companies mimic it (I imagine that regular old weed would be a lot cheaper than the stuff they're making)

 

Innit.

 

[bleep] the drug laws, keep smoking keep fighting.

 

There's clearly an alter motif because the pros heavily, heavily outway the cons, and the Governments all know this.

 

 

 

The problem with saying the "for the side affect" argument is that the government doesnt say to alcohol drinkers that you are allowed to drink as long as its under a limit that would get you intoxicated they say you can drink as much as you want just dont drive.

 

If the government had that precidence on drinking you would have a valid arguement there.

 

I agree, I think the law is silly. But it would be too arbitrary to tell people they could drink to a certain extent, which is why that isn't the case.

 

regardless we operate largely on precedence, so in the case that it ever was legal it would follow the same laws as alcohol, as in massive trouble for DUI crimes, acting stupid on the street while under the influence, but while in your own home you would be allowed to use as you wanted.

 

In my personal opinion I would have no problem with this, and it would hurt criminal gangs the most since people would be willing to pay more to buy from a store legally instead of shady deals with dealers

 

Or grow it ;)

 

I bet there would never be a recorded case of 'high and disorderly' haha!

 

I have a lot of friends who have smoked weed for years and i see the only problems as creating laziness (but if they couldn't deal then they couldn't afford to be lazy) and causing paranoia, but I think that comes from the paranoia you need to have when doing something ilegal. If legalised it wouldn't be sketchy smoking a dooby in the park and constantly looking out.

 

Oh and schizophrenia but in my experience everyone I've known who got it (3 people :P) were right weirdos before. So bound to go scitz at some point.

 

Also with regards to driving stoned, my mates do all the time. And I mean all the time, it's not amazingly dodgy. I've probably been in a car with stoned drivers about.. i dunno 300+ times, no joke. I've been in a car with a drunk driver like 10 times and 3 times we had a heavy crash.

 

Basically, stoned driving is kusher than kush.

 

But if you wanna hurt criminal gangs you need to legalize everything, otherwise they'll move onto something else. I don;t know much about Mexican cartels but I'm gunna guess coke is pretty high up there aswell.

[marcustullius]

 

 

Oh and schizophrenia but in my experience everyone I've known who got it (3 people :P) were right weirdos before. So bound to go scitz at some point.

 

 

Weed doesn't cause schizophrenia fyi

[Range_This11]

I am not denying that the ATF messed up, and made stupid choices, but these Cartels would have obtained guns by other means. Blaming the ATF for these deaths directly is a stretch.

If the Cartel are using weapons and ammunition illegally bought from shops in which the ATF authorized illegal sales, then yes, the blood is on the ATF's hands. There is no way that the blame can be placed, or for that matter, reduced by any degree, anywhere else but on the ATF.

[marcustullius]

I am not denying that the ATF messed up, and made stupid choices, but these Cartels would have obtained guns by other means. Blaming the ATF for these deaths directly is a stretch.

If the Cartel are using weapons and ammunition illegally bought from shops in which the ATF authorized illegal sales, then yes, the blood is on the ATF's hands. There is no way that the blame can be placed, or for that matter, reduced by any degree, anywhere else but on the ATF.

 

It's not like it's hard for Mexicans with cartel connections to get guns from the US.

Drug gangs seek out guns in the United States because the gun-control laws are far tougher in Mexico. Mexican civilians must get approval from the military to buy guns and they cannot own large-caliber rifles or high-powered pistols, which are considered military weapons.

The gun laws in the United States allow the sale of multiple military-style rifles to American citizens without reporting the sales to the government, and the Mexicans search relatively few cars and trucks going south across their border.

 

What is more, the sheer volume of licensed dealers — more than 6,600 along the border alone, many of them operating out of their houses — makes policing them a tall order. Currently the A.T.F. has about 200 agents assigned to the task.

 

...

 

Some of the smuggled weapons are also bought from private individuals at gun shows, and the law requires no notification of the authorities in those cases.

 

The authorities in the United States say they do not know how many firearms are transported across the border each year, in part because the federal government does not track gun sales and traces only weapons used in crimes. But A.T.F. officials estimate 90 percent of the weapons recovered in Mexico come from dealers north of the border.

 

In 2007, the firearms agency traced 2,400 weapons seized in Mexico back to dealers in the United States, and 1,800 of those came from dealers operating in the four states along the border, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico.

 

...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html?_r=1

 

 

 

It's not like the ATF did anything that can't already be done easily enough.

[No_M0re]

 

 

Oh and schizophrenia but in my experience everyone I've known who got it (3 people :P) were right weirdos before. So bound to go scitz at some point.

 

 

Weed doesn't cause schizophrenia fyi

 

 

 

Like I said, they were bound to skitz anyway.

 

But it did cause it, trust. There's no proof because it's incredibly hard to prove. But mate I watched a mate of mine go skitz. it was the weed.

[Range_This11]

I am not denying that the ATF messed up, and made stupid choices, but these Cartels would have obtained guns by other means. Blaming the ATF for these deaths directly is a stretch.

If the Cartel are using weapons and ammunition illegally bought from shops in which the ATF authorized illegal sales, then yes, the blood is on the ATF's hands. There is no way that the blame can be placed, or for that matter, reduced by any degree, anywhere else but on the ATF.

 

It's not like it's hard for Mexicans with cartel connections to get guns from the US.

 

Drug gangs seek out guns in the United States because the gun-control laws are far tougher in Mexico. Mexican civilians must get approval from the military to buy guns and they cannot own large-caliber rifles or high-powered pistols, which are considered military weapons.

The gun laws in the United States allow the sale of multiple military-style rifles to American citizens without reporting the sales to the government, and the Mexicans search relatively few cars and trucks going south across their border.

 

What is more, the sheer volume of licensed dealers more than 6,600 along the border alone, many of them operating out of their houses makes policing them a tall order. Currently the A.T.F. has about 200 agents assigned to the task.

 

...

 

Some of the smuggled weapons are also bought from private individuals at gun shows, and the law requires no notification of the authorities in those cases.

 

The authorities in the United States say they do not know how many firearms are transported across the border each year, in part because the federal government does not track gun sales and traces only weapons used in crimes. But A.T.F. officials estimate 90 percent of the weapons recovered in Mexico come from dealers north of the border.

 

In 2007, the firearms agency traced 2,400 weapons seized in Mexico back to dealers in the United States, and 1,800 of those came from dealers operating in the four states along the border, with Texas first, followed by California, Arizona and New Mexico.

 

...

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html?_r=1

 

 

 

It's not like the ATF did anything that can't already be done easily enough.

This car is rapidly approaching Pointless Argument Road, you know, the one that's right after Smash My Face Against a Wall Avenue?

 

I am well aware that weapons are bought and sold illegally in America and often wind up south of the border BUT THAT DOES NOT ABSOLVE ATF FROM RESPONSIBILITY. It is so frustrating to watch people try to justify the authorized sale of illegal weapons to Mexican drug Cartel with the only logic being "Uh, well dude, they would have gotten them anyway, so it's all good." NO, it is not okay under any circumstances for an entity of the United States government to sell illegal weapons to known international criminals.

[marcustullius]

 

 

 

Like I said, they were bound to skitz anyway.

 

But it did cause it, trust. There's no proof because it's incredibly hard to prove. But mate I watched a mate of mine go skitz. it was the weed.

 

Does not cause schizophrenia. If you are already genetically predisposed to schizophrenia it can make it worse/compound it/whatever. Also, this is assuming that you are actually talking about friends getting clinically diagnosed with schizophrenia and not that they acted weird a couple times when they smoke.

 

 

 

I am well aware that weapons are bought and sold illegally in America and often wind up south of the border BUT THAT DOES NOT ABSOLVE ATF FROM RESPONSIBILITY. It is so frustrating to watch people try to justify the authorized sale of illegal weapons to Mexican drug Cartel with the only logic being "Uh, well dude, they would have gotten them anyway, so it's all good." NO, it is not okay under any circumstances for an entity of the United States government to sell illegal weapons to known international criminals.

 

It's just not as big a deal as people are making it. It makes for a funny/embarrassing news story, but it isn't that big of a deal.