Project Gun Runner and Operation Fast and Furious

[sees_all1]

Congress and the Department of Justice appear to be headed for a showdown this week over documents detailing Operation Fast and Furious, the botched gunrunning sting set up by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that funneled more than 1,700 smuggled weapons from Arizona to Mexico.

 

The Justice Department has until Wednesday to deliver to congressional investigators a stack of records and emails naming the individuals responsible for the gun trafficking operation that may have killed dozens, if not hundreds of Mexicans, and is becoming a growing embarrassment for the Obama administration.

 

Under Project Gunrunner and the Phoenix off-shoot, dubbed Fast and Furious, the ATF encouraged gun store owners to sell to straw buyers -- consumers who they suspected of working on behalf of Mexican drug cartels.

 

Project Gunrunner purposely allowed the straw buyers to illegally buy and export guns only to see where they surfaced in Mexico. Using this investigative technique, the ATF hoped to take down the entire gun trafficking organization. Instead, records show it allowed more than 1,700 guns, including hundreds of AK-47s and high-powered, armor-piercing .50-caliber rifles to be trafficked to Mexico

 

Buying guns for non-personal use is illegal. Yet gun store owners were assured by ATF agents the buyers were under investigation and the guns were being intercepted before crossing into Mexico.

 

Instead, whistleblowers say the guns were allowed "to walk."

 

President Obama, speaking for the first time about the growing scandal, conceded last week Fast and Furious may have been "a serious mistake," but he claimed, "I did not authorize it; Eric Holder, the attorney general, did not authorize it. He's been very clear that our policy is to catch gunrunners and put them into jail."

 

But an investigation by Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, could show otherwise.

 

The ATF operates under Justice Department, and two assistant U.S. attorneys in Phoenix authorized virtually every wiretap, affidavit and investigation conducted in Operation Fast and Furious.

 

Some, like Issa, wonder how Holder could not have known about an investigation that size.

 

"One of the questions we always ask is who is lying," Issa told Fox News. "We lose our credibility if we don't come clean and make the changes necessary to save lives on both sides of the border."

 

If the Justice Department and ATF refuse to deliver the records Issa requested, as it already has done with similar requests by Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, Issa can subpoena the records.

 

"We will subpoena if we have to, we'll hold hearings if we have to, we'll call in officials if we have to. But at the end of the day, the two Americans likely to have died as a result of this action pale in comparison to the countless numbers of Mexicans who have been killed," said Issa.

 

He is referring to Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent Jamie Zapata. The guns used to kill both men were bought in the U.S. and investigators will now see if they are linked to Project Gunrunner.

 

Humberto Trevino, a senior Mexican lawmaker, says at least 150 people have been shot with ATF-monitored guns.

 

Two of the gun stores involved were Carter's Country in Houston and J&G Gun Sales in Prescott, Ariz.

 

"Let me tell you something about Carter's Country. They have been co-operating with ATF from the get-go," says Carter's County attorney [bleep] Deguerin.

 

"They were told to go through with what they considered to be questionable sales. They were told to go through with sales of three or more assault rifles at the same time or five or more 9-mm guns at the same time or a young Hispanic male paying in cash. It's all profiling, but they went through with it."

 

Both gun stores felt burned by the ATF -- first by leaked records to The Washington Post that showed the two stores responsible for dozens of guns found at Mexican crime scenes, and now by Operation Fast and Furious.

 

"You assumed they had your back," added J&G President Brad Desaye. "Absolutely, we felt like partners with ATF in a lot of ways."

 

Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich said in a Feb. 4 letter the operation's purpose was "to dismantle the entire trafficking organization, not merely to arrest straw purchasers."

 

"The allegation -- that ATF 'sanctioned' or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to a straw purchaser who then transported them into Mexico -- is false," he wrote.

 

Holder also says his department policy is not to "let guns walk."

 

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/28/obama-administration-mounting-pressure-botched-gun-trafficking-investigation/#ixzz1I8ZncRff

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/28/obama-administration-mounting-pressure-botched-gun-trafficking-investigation/

 

Discuss.

[marcustullius]

Hahaha my favorite bit

 

Project Gunrunner purposely allowed the straw buyers to illegally buy and export guns only to see where they surfaced in Mexico. Using this investigative technique, the ATF hoped to take down the entire gun trafficking organization. Instead, records show it allowed more than 1,700 guns, including hundreds of AK-47s and high-powered, armor-piercing .50-caliber rifles to be trafficked to Mexico

[Range_This11]

What's to discuss...this is [bleep]ing horrible.

[marcustullius]

America should really reconsider some of their drug laws...oh wait, making weed legal would hurt pharmaceutical companies

[sees_all1]

What's to discuss...this is [bleep]ing horrible.

I heard about this, and was like

 

 

I hope that everyone involved with this brilliant idea is moved to the basement, and have their red staplers taken away.

[stevepole]

America should really reconsider some of their drug laws...oh wait, making weed legal would hurt pharmaceutical companies

 

Arizona legalized medical marijuana.

[Wisp]

Bad way of doing things, but let's be honest, it's not like these are the only guns getting into Mexico. Those who want guns wouldn't have just been like "damn, we couldn't get one of the thousand or so guns they let slip though, I guess I'll get out of this business." They would have got guns no matter what, they just wouldn't have been the same guns.

 

Very stupid on the ATF's part, but I wouldn't go as far to say as the deaths were caused by this. It's the person firing the gun that's the cause, not the gun itself.

[obfuscator]

Shrug. I don't know why there's so much outrage over this when it's most likely happening all the time anyways.

 

But seriously, does anyone need an ak-47 in the first place?

[marcustullius]

America should really reconsider some of their drug laws...oh wait, making weed legal would hurt pharmaceutical companies

 

Arizona legalized medical marijuana.

 

One state legalizing it under strict rules isn't what I was talking about. I remember reading about pharmaceutical companies manufacturing synthetic marijuana to sell as well, funny how weed is supposedly bad enough to make illegal, but beneficial enough that pharmaceutical companies mimic it (I imagine that regular old weed would be a lot cheaper than the stuff they're making)

[Wisp]

America should really reconsider some of their drug laws...oh wait, making weed legal would hurt pharmaceutical companies

 

Arizona legalized medical marijuana.

 

One state legalizing it under strict rules isn't what I was talking about. I remember reading about pharmaceutical companies manufacturing synthetic marijuana to sell as well, funny how weed is supposedly bad enough to make illegal, but beneficial enough that pharmaceutical companies mimic it (I imagine that regular old weed would be a lot cheaper than the stuff they're making)

For reference, the artificial stuff (and not many people ever used it, comparatively) caused several deaths, while cannabis hasn't ever caused a death. But we're getting far off topic.

[obfuscator]

while cannabis hasn't ever caused a death.

Pretty hard to prove that.

[sees_all1]

Bad way of doing things, but let's be honest, it's not like these are the only guns getting into Mexico. Those who want guns wouldn't have just been like "damn, we couldn't get one of the thousand or so guns they let slip though, I guess I'll get out of this business." They would have got guns no matter what, they just wouldn't have been the same guns.

 

Very stupid on the ATF's part, but I wouldn't go as far to say as the deaths were caused by this. It's the person firing the gun that's the cause, not the gun itself.

Its 1700 guns that went from legitimate sales people directly to thugs based on requests by the US government. The guns that also went out were also high powered, AK-47s or .50 caliber rifles (or similar), which they probably would have had a much harder time obtaining otherwise.

[marcustullius]

while cannabis hasn't ever caused a death.

Pretty hard to prove that.

 

Actually, it's pretty hard to prove (read: impossible) to prove the marijuana kills people. But if you can do it, by all means go for it. Think about it though, if we assume that even a single person died from it in the past 2 decades, the media would be all over that [cabbage] spouting how bad marijuana is and look at our youth and blah blah blah.

[marcustullius]

 

While there is a lot of people that die because of stupid decisions that relate to use, and long term affects such as lung cancer I am willing to say that with proper use it is less dangerous then Alcohol which is a legal mind altering drug.

 

Always remember dont argue against something by citing abuse. It doesnt take away from the proper use of the thing. IE: Cars are useful to travel, someone uses a car as a weapon. It doesnt mean every driver should lose their car because of it.

 

To the first part, from what I've read, if you use a vaporizer then you get rid of the bad levels of carcinogens from lighting marijuana and smoking it, thus removing the cancer risk.

 

The second part really reminds me of I believe John Stewart Mill's thoughts about rational law. Those being that the government shouldn't be able to tell you not to do something because it will harm YOU, but only if it will harm OTHERS.

[stevepole]

while cannabis hasn't ever caused a death.

Pretty hard to prove that.

 

Theres millions of users of the drug, how many documented "overdoses" have there ever been for cannabis users? None that I've heard of.

 

While there is a lot of people that die because of stupid decisions that relate to use, and long term affects such as lung cancer I am willing to say that with proper use it is less dangerous then Alcohol which is a legal mind altering drug.

 

Always remember dont argue against something by citing abuse. It doesnt take away from the proper use of the thing. IE: Cars are useful to travel, someone uses a car as a weapon. It doesnt mean every driver should lose their car because of it.

 

You'd have to smoke something like a metric ton of weed to die directly from smoking it but that doesn't eliminate all deaths while under the influence.

 

@marcustullius Legalizing marijuana is a work in progress, it's just winning over the older generations that believe it's absolutely evil kinda like the old stigma that tattoos are bad.

[obfuscator]

while cannabis hasn't ever caused a death.

Pretty hard to prove that.

 

Actually, it's pretty hard to prove (read: impossible) to prove the marijuana kills people. But if you can do it, by all means go for it. Think about it though, if we assume that even a single person died from it in the past 2 decades, the media would be all over that [cabbage] spouting how bad marijuana is and look at our youth and blah blah blah.

 

Oh, I'm well aware that the immediate medical effects of marijuana use are largely negligible.

 

 

 

Theres millions of users of the drug, how many documented "overdoses" have there ever been for cannabis users? None that I've heard of.

 

While there is a lot of people that die because of stupid decisions that relate to use, and long term affects such as lung cancer I am willing to say that with proper use it is less dangerous then Alcohol which is a legal mind altering drug.

 

Always remember dont argue against something by citing abuse. It doesnt take away from the proper use of the thing. IE: Cars are useful to travel, someone uses a car as a weapon. It doesnt mean every driver should lose their car because of it.

 

True, but cases that relate to use should still be considered fatalities cause by marijuana. Just as we consider alcohol to cause a drunk driving death, marijuana should be the same.

 

The problem with "don't argue against something by citing abuse" is that marijuana is by definition taken for its side effects and is therefore being abused. The reason alcohol is legal is because it can be taken and enjoyed without and not for its side effects.

 

But yes, if you're talking about abuse, marijuana is no worse than alcohol (except perhaps the smoke to lungs issue).

[Wisp]

I'll rephrase that, there has never been a recorded death due to the substance alone, while there have been several from the artificial version, which didn't have many users to start.

 

Ak-47's are the most common gun in the world. They may have a tough time getting them as directly as going to a US store and buying them, but to be honest I doubt that they actually bought Ak-47's, since in order to get a rea AUTOMATIC ak-47 in the US you need to get a class 3 permit, go through all that, get approved by the town sheriff, etc. Even if all that was waived, they still cost 15 grand for a legal class 3 automatic ak47 in the US. They probably bought a semi auto rifle designed to look like an ak-47, which is no different than any other semi auto rifle except in appearance and name. Also, .50 cal is held to the same laws as all other guns, except in california I believe, so I don't think getting black market .50's would be terribly difficult compared to other black market weapons.

Getting real automatic Ak-47's would probably be thousands of times cheaper and easier from sources outside of a store in Arizona. An AK costs a few hundred bucks in most countries with few regulations, versus over ten thousand here and an assload of paperwork.

[marcustullius]

 

 

True, but cases that relate to use should still be considered fatalities cause by marijuana. Just as we consider alcohol to cause a drunk driving death, marijuana should be the same.

 

The problem with "don't argue against something by citing abuse" is that marijuana is by definition taken for its side effects and is therefore being abused. The reason alcohol is legal is because it can be taken and enjoyed without and not for its side effects.

 

But yes, if you're talking about abuse, marijuana is no worse than alcohol (except perhaps the smoke to lungs issue).

 

Drunk driving deaths aren't alcohol deaths, they're alcohol RELATED. Alcohol wasn't what killed them, if they just drank the alcohol they wouldn't have died, their choice to get in the vehicle and drive drunk was what killed them. If someone died by driving their car off a bridge while high, it wouldn't be a marijuana death, it would be marijuana RELATED. There is nothing inherently dangerous about marijuana, but if you pair it with other variables it could be, but so could virtually any other item in the world.

 

Also, I'm not sold on marijuana use being marijuana abuse. What is the the function of marijuana then, if getting high is a side effect? Alcohol's function is to get drunk, so I don't see how that could be any worse than marijuana

[obfuscator]

 

 

The problem with saying the "for the side affect" argument is that the government doesnt say to alcohol drinkers that you are allowed to drink as long as its under a limit that would get you intoxicated they say you can drink as much as you want just dont drive.

 

If the government had that precidence on drinking you would have a valid arguement there.

 

I agree, I think the law is silly. But it would be too arbitrary to tell people they could drink to a certain extent, which is why that isn't the case.

[sees_all1]

I should edit in a pot article so you guys are all on topic. :wink:

[marcustullius]

 

 

regardless we operate largely on precedence, so in the case that it ever was legal it would follow the same laws as alcohol, as in massive trouble for DUI crimes, acting stupid on the street while under the influence, but while in your own home you would be allowed to use as you wanted.

 

In my personal opinion I would have no problem with this, and it would hurt criminal gangs the most since people would be willing to pay more to buy from a store legally instead of shady deals with dealers

 

To my knowledge, regarding the driving bit, DWI's already cover driving while using drugs. There are in all likelihood laws that cover drugs in public already too

 

I should edit in a pot article so you guys are all on topic. :wink:

They masterminded this botched infiltration attempt as a way to disrupt Mexican drug cartels' ability to obtain guns. Without such strict drug laws in the US, these Mexican cartels wouldn't be so prominent.

 

Or, you know, you could have added SOME content to your OP to steer the topic

[jasignhagj]

I'll rephrase that, there has never been a recorded death due to the substance alone, while there have been several from the artificial version, which didn't have many users to start.

 

Ak-47's are the most common gun in the world. They may have a tough time getting them as directly as going to a US store and buying them, but to be honest I doubt that they actually bought Ak-47's, since in order to get a rea AUTOMATIC ak-47 in the US you need to get a class 3 permit, go through all that, get approved by the town sheriff, etc. Even if all that was waived, they still cost 15 grand for a legal class 3 automatic ak47 in the US. They probably bought a semi auto rifle designed to look like an ak-47, which is no different than any other semi auto rifle except in appearance and name. Also, .50 cal is held to the same laws as all other guns, except in california I believe, so I don't think getting black market .50's would be terribly difficult compared to other black market weapons.

Getting real automatic Ak-47's would probably be thousands of times cheaper and easier from sources outside of a store in Arizona. An AK costs a few hundred bucks in most countries with few regulations, versus over ten thousand here and an assload of paperwork.

 

Depends on the state. You can buy an AK47 built pre Assault Weapons Ban with a simple permit for a few hundred in some states. Barret .50 cal snipers are also legal for purchase and even hunting in some states.

[Wisp]

I think we should have a separate topic for this discussion (I assume it's allowed to have a civil discussion on legality, and not personal use etc. of drugs? I could be wrong), and focus on the topic of the gun runner/fast and furious.

 

The simple permit you mentioned spork is the class 3, which requires the signature of the sherrif, which most of the time they simply won't sign it. A pre-ban ak-47 isn't too common. I have never seen even an auto sold for a few hundred dollars, and I've seen them sold for ten thousand+, which is what I based my last statement off of. Needless to say, they're far from cheap. There are better ways to get an AK than through the US. .50 cals aren't regulated differently than normal guns, in most states, so finding a black market one probably wouldn't be too hard either.

[marcustullius]

I think we should have a separate topic for this discussion (I assume it's allowed to have a civil discussion on legality, and not personal use etc. of drugs? I could be wrong), and focus on the topic of the gun runner/fast and furious

 

A marijuana topic would devolve into stupid stuff and go on WAY too long, while this one will lose steam by tomorrow. The gun running topic was weak anyway, this one is much better and is actually relevant

[Wisp]

I think we should have a separate topic for this discussion (I assume it's allowed to have a civil discussion on legality, and not personal use etc. of drugs? I could be wrong), and focus on the topic of the gun runner/fast and furious

 

A marijuana topic would devolve into stupid stuff and go on WAY too long, while this one will lose steam by tomorrow. The gun running topic was weak anyway, this one is much better and is actually relevant

Perhaps a broader drug legalization thread? It's an interesting topic with highly varying opinions, regardless of political affiliation.