Advanced Dungeoneering Guide Corrections

[Nifflin]

To start off, this is all for members dungoneering. I suggest you split the guides into members and f2p dung because they are really two very different things.

 

First, the binds section. It is more or less accepted that primal 2h > primal baxe > prom 2h > your best 2h. Maul should only be used if your strength level is 20 levels higher then your attack level. Make it clear that by 80 dung a person should have t7 berserker and t9 by 90 dung. The only bow that should ever be bound is hexhunter. Only keyers should ever bind a plate as a third bind. The best third binds are ccs/emp fire staff, hexhunter, primal gaunts, blood neck and primal/prom rapier. For ammo surgebox > laws. Only bind arrows if you are using a hexhunter.

 

Skillers should only be present in f2p dungeons.

 

"Before entering a room, survey the guardians within and be aware of their attack styles. Activate the appropriate prayer to protect your weaknesses, and enter as a team."

 

This is false, you should immediately enter unless it is a raperoom. The time lost by waiting for the whole team, ect is too great. Just pray mage and run in, adapting as you go.

 

The section on important resources. First, resources should be carried until you happen to pass the ht (herbs,blue/crim charms and stuff for alter). Carrying unf pots and 2nds is a really good way to speed up the dung if you can gather them as you move. You should never need to fish/cook food. Leather bags are also useless, one of the surest signs of a novice dunger is that they make worldbearers. The only familiars to make are ragers and their scrolls for the boss. No other familiars speed up the dungeon.

 

I'll add stuff if I think of anything. I personally think there should be separate guides for rushing, clearing and f2p as they are all very different dung styles.

[Jimmyw3000]

"Before entering a room, survey the guardians within and be aware of their attack styles. Activate the appropriate prayer to protect your weaknesses, and enter as a team."

 

This is false, you should immediately enter unless it is a raperoom. The time lost by waiting for the whole team, ect is too great. Just pray mage and run in, adapting as you go.

grow a pair and immediately enter anyway, if everybody does so, it wont make a difference.

 

 

 

I agree with making it clear that this is a members guide. obviously DGing in F2P is different. As this is an 'advanced' dging guide, it might be worthwhile mentioning that the tactics mentioned apply for 'mains' not 'pures' or 'skillers' or 'tanks' (ie, any account that doesnt level a stat)

 

 

A section on the tiered rings, + recommendations would be nice - (zerk, desp, blitz/blaze, gatherer are the recommended, but zerker takes priority. T7 is cheap and worthwhile, it only gets really costly at about T9-t10 )

 

 

add Dinos to the resource section (cant believe you forgot those things lol), and a perhaps a guide on skinning it 'losslessly' - likewise, you can mine ore/cut a tree in between attacks to avoid DPS reduction

 

The bit on worldbeaers need removing, nobody should ever use one - Ragers's scrolls lower melee defence, which is why they're recommended. Slingers have the highest DPS but Ragers are better anyway (slingers take up more resources to make too)

 

 

'If a room has a Guardian Door, ask all teammates to teleport to you to clear the room.' Or the GGS, (keyer shouldnt really need to be clearing a room unless it's 1wayed)

'To avoid angry teammates, try to have the Group Gatestone location be as safe as possible. Call out any necessary prayers that might be needed when asking people to teleport to you.' Again, the implication that the keyer keeps the GGS with themselves isnt really good.

 

'Unless the Keyer is far away and there is a key on the ground for a door in the same room, you should not touch keys. Having random members with random keys defeats the purpose of a Keyer and leads to wasted time and confusion.' the DPSer should mention that there's a key on the ground anyway.

 

 

A section on abbreviations would not go amiss.

 

 

Another good idea is to keep the keyer's invent in the DG tab (quest tab) so you can see into it, an what keys they have

 

 

 

on the whole a very good guide :)

[Ned]

Nice, I was hoping for DGS feedback.

Good point about F2P vs. P2P. Luckily we do have an F2P Dungeoneer on crew who may be able to help.

 

I'll add in that binding info. Much appreciated.

 

Section on tier rings is definitely appropriate. I'll work on that.

And I will remove the bit about worldbearers as, you're right, reading it again it sounds like they are recommended over other familiars. I will make the section about bloodragers a bit more noticeable.

Dinos should be added. Sorry about that.

Also about waiting to enter a GD, this was written with w117/w148 rage quitters in mind (which doesn't happen in DGS because everyone knows what they are doing usually) so I thought it might be wise to warn against suiciding/rushing in seeing as not all people who read the guide might be aware they could get killed. I'll make it more clear.

 

Also yes, I will clarify that the GGS should be dropped at certain points. That was not worded well.

Abbreviations section is a good idea. Will work on it.

 

Thanks so much for the feedback. It really helps. I'll edit this post when everything's been added/changed.

 

Certainly should not be called an "advanced dungeoneering guide" all the information on it is basic and some of the information is bad (i.e go kill things in denks for food, wait to enter a gd.) - a basic dungeoneering guide with bad ideas is a much more fitting title.

 

The statement you are referring to is "Do not waste time clearing dead ends unless you are in need of food drops" which implies that it is not recommended to do that unless absolutely necessary. From personal experience, there have been instances where there is an insanely difficult room in which suiciding is unrealistic and there are no ways of obtaining food that don't deter from the path (i.e. all GD food has been exhausted, etc.) However I will change it to make that more clear.

 

Also, I realize for the extremely experienced players in DGS this is not an advanced guide. Tip.It's audience is much broader than that. The guide details some more complex methods relative to the original skill guide which lays out what the skill is. A lot of people have no idea what keying is, or rushing, DPSers, GD clearing, etc.

 

I was anticipating DGS feedback in a positive way so we could work together to change the guide for the better. Please tell me what bad information you see so it can be edited.

[Obtaurian]

My problem with the guide (besides the stuff like recommending worldbearers, which has already been mentioned) is that everything in it is stuff that I expect any brand new DGSer to know within a week of first using the chat. An advanced dungeoneering guide would cover combat mechanics (kiting, safe-spotting, trampling, etc), advanced boss tactics, puzzle/skill room tricks, lossless skilling (making potions, hunting dinos), third bind use, the differences between battleaxes and 2hs, monster priority, etc.

 

EDIT: tl;dr everything in your guide should be promoted as being basic material that EVERY dungeoneer should know, DGS or otherwise.

[Ned]

My problem with the guide (besides the stuff like recommending worldbearers, which has already been mentioned) is that everything in it is stuff that I expect any brand new DGSer to know within a week of first using the chat. An advanced dungeoneering guide would cover combat mechanics (kiting, safe-spotting, trampling, etc), advanced boss tactics, puzzle/skill room tricks, lossless skilling (making potions, hunting dinos), third bind use, the differences between battleaxes and 2hs, monster priority, etc.

 

EDIT: tl;dr everything in your guide should be promoted as being basic material that EVERY dungeoneer should know, DGS or otherwise.

 

If you would like to help with writing your concept of an advanced guide that would be great. I'll be first to admit you guys know more than I do with those things (kiting, etc). If that came into being we could merge the "basic" guide into something else.

 

Also I'd really prefer not to start up a hostile discussion attacking everyone, and get some good results instead for everyone's benefit.

[Jimmyw3000]

i took a min to think about it...this guide would be 'advanced' for the average runescaper. The DGS leaders consider it basic because the info is expected of every DGSer.

 

 

Tip.it is written for every runescaper looking for help, the majority of them would use w117, who's dg techniques are [cabbage]

 

 

 

 

Maybe leave this one as is, then release a new for want of a better word... 'efficient' dg guide, with techniques like kiting, safespotting, pray flashing, l.ossless resource gathering/pot making

 

 

or else just rename it basic.

[Cowman_133]

Hey guys,

 

I've removed several posts from this topic that did nothing more than insult the efforts of members of the website crew. We do not tolerate blatant disrespect towards our crew and their efforts in our content on our forums. What we want in this forum is constructive criticism of our content so that we can improve it. If you are browsing this topic and thinking of replying without the intention of helping improve our guide, please stop yourself now and don't bother posting.

 

The title "Advanced Dungeoneering Guide" will remain. If you're interested in helping us improve the content, please continue posting. I'd like to thank Nifflin, Rare_Pain and Obtaurian to a certain extent for providing a starting point for us to improve. Their posts are good examples of what we want posted in this forum. I am perfectly fine with negative feedback, because we're never going to have a perfect guide, but if you don't give us any suggestions to improve the actual content (title aside, we don't need that mentioned again) we really cannot address your concerns with the guide and it is a waste of time for all parties involved.

 

That being said there seemed to be a bit of confusion above with what Warriormonkx was asking when he said we needed constructive criticism. We are NOT looking for users to re-write the guide: we are looking for ideas to improve. The Website Crew is fairly separate from the Admin and Moderator teams and any conflict in existence between any of you and one of those teams either needs to be put aside when working with the crew or if you're not able to do that, it does not need to be dragged into here where the Crew is just trying to do their job with the unfortunate burden of fairly experienced players being unwilling to help us. If you're not willing to help the Crew with this project, please stay off this topic. Negotiations on things we'd have to do to get you to help us will not get you anywhere here and are more suited for a private message between me and you.

 

Further unnecessary posts will be removed without a warning.

 

Thank you.

 

Cowman_133

Tip.It Website Administrator

[All_Bogs]

i took a min to think about it...this guide would be 'advanced' for the average runescaper. The DGS leaders consider it basic because the info is expected of every DGSer.

 

Very important to keep this in mind. It may be basic stuff for DGS-members and other people with an interest in maximizing their XP gains, but the average W117-goer and your average casual DG-once-a-week player will no doubt pick up a thing or two from reading the guide. And frankly, the latter category makes up the majority of the people reading our site - other than being a handy reference list, we just don't have a whole lot to offer to experienced players who know pretty much everything there is to know already.

 

Our basic guides are, for the most part, just a reference. This is true for the main dungeoneering guide as well. The advanced guide definitely goes a step above that. Still, 'advanced' might not really cover the contents - what does 'advanced' mean exactly? The guide's focus is mostly on things that improve speed, so having something like speed or efficiency in the guide title might be better. Nicely sidesteps the issue of the knowledge in the guide being basic or advanced as well :P

 

We're working on a combat basics guide - praying flashing will be covered in that. Dungeoneering specifics such as boss tricks, puzzle tricks, lossless gathering and whatnot definitely deserve a place in this guide, though. Boss and puzzle tricks probably each deserve a paragraph of their own, whereas more general stuff such as the lossless gathering could be collected in an 'expert tricks' section or such.

[Nifflin]

*checks Cowman on the highscores*

 

Level 60 dungoneering. Good point Obt.

 

And I agree that these are not advanced techniques, hopefully though we can look forward to an actual advanced guide in the future.

[Obtaurian]

It may be basic stuff for DGS-members and other people with an interest in maximizing their XP gains, but the average W117-goer and your average casual DG-once-a-week player will no doubt pick up a thing or two from reading the guide.

 

I don't think you understand. I said NEW members of DGS are expected to know this stuff within a week of using the chat. When I say NEW, I mean the equivalent of 117/148ers. These are not advanced dungeoneering tactics. These are the basics, like it or not. This guide is literally a "here's how to get started" affair.

 

Unfortunately I feel the need to reiterate that this is not an insult; rather, I'm explaining that this guide should be advertised as providing basic, foundational knowledge of dungeoneering that everyone should know before they really begin training the skill. Once again, there is nothing advanced in this guide.

[All_Bogs]

Unfortunately I feel the need to reiterate that this is not an insult; rather, I'm explaining that this guide should be advertised as providing basic, foundational knowledge of dungeoneering that everyone should know before they really begin training the skill.

 

What do you mean exactly by "really begin training the skill"?

[Jimmyw3000]

There is a chance these guidelines wont be followed by w117 goers who see the word 'advanced' and think "nty"

[Obtaurian]

Unfortunately I feel the need to reiterate that this is not an insult; rather, I'm explaining that this guide should be advertised as providing basic, foundational knowledge of dungeoneering that everyone should know before they really begin training the skill.

 

What do you mean exactly by "really begin training the skill"?

 

As soon as you stop using lamps/pengs/TOG to gain exp and start actually dungeoneering.

 

The advanced guide definitely goes a step above that. Still, 'advanced' might not really cover the contents - what does 'advanced' mean exactly?

 

I already made a short list of subjects that would be covered in an advanced guide.

 

The guide's focus is mostly on things that improve speed, so having something like speed or efficiency in the guide title might be better.

 

No, this guide actually pertains to both "rush" and "non-rush" (completely outdated terms considering that no-one does "non-rushing"), so it can't be considered a "speed" or "efficiency" guide. Rather, it covers the basics that ANY dungeoneering team - regardless of experience, play style, whatever - must know.

 

We're working on a combat basics guide - praying flashing will be covered in that. Dungeoneering specifics such as boss tricks, puzzle tricks, lossless gathering and whatnot definitely deserve a place in this guide, though. Boss and puzzle tricks probably each deserve a paragraph of their own, whereas more general stuff such as the lossless gathering could be collected in an 'expert tricks' section or such.

 

A paragraph each? I don't think you guys realize how expansive a proper dungeoneering guide would be. None of the advanced dg techniques I've previously listed should be incorporated into this guide, because this guide covers BASICS only. Best to keep them separate for ease-of-access.

[Nifflin]

Unfortunately I feel the need to reiterate that this is not an insult; rather, I'm explaining that this guide should be advertised as providing basic, foundational knowledge of dungeoneering that everyone should know before they really begin training the skill.

 

What do you mean exactly by "really begin training the skill"?

 

It's more or less accepted that you shouldn't step foot in deamonheim until you have 60-70 dung from tears and pengs. Really training the skill usually comes later when people start training because they love it and not just for the rewards. At that point they need to learn a lot about the skill in very little time which of course, they will do and then eventually become able to proficiently function in teams.

 

You aren't really training the skill until you can function in a team and consistently do sub 30 dungeons.

 

Edit: Beat me to it.

[Jimmyw3000]

There is a chance these guidelines wont be followed by w117 goers who see the word 'advanced' and think "nty"

So you're saying because the people that look at tipit don't want good guides, tipit should just keep on putting out crap guides? Up to tipit if they want to be a place where you learn useless crap.

wat

 

I'm saying that the word 'advance; might put off people who are perfectly capable of the techniques, but think they cant, or else cant be bothered.

 

 

where the [bleep] did you get 'people that look at tipit don't want good guides, tipit should just keep on putting out crap guides? Up to tipit if they want to be a place where you learn useless crap.'people that look at tipit don't want good guides, tipit should just keep on putting out crap guides? ' from???

[Andy]

There is a chance these guidelines wont be followed by w117 goers who see the word 'advanced' and think "nty"

So you're saying because the people that look at tipit don't want good guides, tipit should just keep on putting out crap guides? Up to tipit if they want to be a place where you learn useless crap.

wat

 

I'm saying that the word 'advance; might put off people who are perfectly capable of the techniques, but think they cant, or else cant be bothered.

 

 

where the [bleep] did you get 'people that look at tipit don't want good guides, tipit should just keep on putting out crap guides? Up to tipit if they want to be a place where you learn useless crap.'people that look at tipit don't want good guides, tipit should just keep on putting out crap guides? ' from???

 

By your first post you imply that an advanced guide would put people off -> That would mean you think tipit should just simply have basic guides.

[Cowman_133]

I'd like to think I'm a pretty reasonable guy. From day one of this particular debate I have been more lenient than I needed to be because I value user feedback. This is not the place to discuss it and I have already mentioned that if you have concerns about anything unrelated to this guide, please address them in a private message with me and I will get back to you. I am not out with a vendetta here - I simply do not appreciate having topics in this forum go off on a tangent. It really doesn't matter what your forum name is on this topic: I apply my actions fairly.

 

If you want to discuss it, you know where. Please leave it off this topic. I cannot be any more clear than that.

 

Cheers,

 

Cowman_133

Tip.It Website Administrator

[Obtaurian]

I'd like to think I'm a pretty reasonable guy. From day one of this particular debate I have been more lenient than I needed to be because I value user feedback. This is not the place to discuss it and I have already mentioned that if you have concerns about anything unrelated to this guide, please address them in a private message with me and I will get back to you. I am not out with a vendetta here - I simply do not appreciate having topics in this forum go off on a tangent and it really doesn't matter what your forum name is on this topic: I apply my actions fairly.

 

If you want to discuss it, you know where. Please leave it off this topic. I cannot be any more clear than that.

 

Cheers,

 

Cowman_133

Tip.It Website Administrator

 

Is this in regards to moderation, or providing constructive criticism of the guide? I assume the former, as the latter would be ridiculous.

[Andy]

I'd love to know what my post had to do with any vendatta.

 

Thanks

[Cowman_133]

Hi there,

 

Great questions! I'd be thrilled to answer them in a private message.

 

Cheers.

[Andy]

:wall:

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Hi there,

 

Great questions! I'd be thrilled to answer them in a private message.

 

Cheers.

automated responses, great.

[All_Bogs]

A paragraph each? I don't think you guys realize how expansive a proper dungeoneering guide would be. None of the advanced dg techniques I've previously listed should be incorporated into this guide, because this guide covers BASICS only. Best to keep them separate for ease-of-access.

Um, yeah, I probably meant to say section. I realize you're not going to cover special tactics for all bosses in a single paragraph :P having them on separate pages is probably a good idea. Adding some sort of 'dungeoneering landing page' that in turn links to all the pages covering various subjects - if we add pages for those things we'd have the basics, tour/tutorial, skills reference, resource dungeons, "advanced basics ;)", advanced tricks, puzzle tricks and boss tricks - would be a bit messy having links to that thrown all over the site.

 

No, this guide actually pertains to both "rush" and "non-rush" (completely outdated terms considering that no-one does "non-rushing"), so it can't be considered a "speed" or "efficiency" guide. Rather, it covers the basics that ANY dungeoneering team - regardless of experience, play style, whatever - must know.

Well, everything but the section on etiquette focuses on techniques that in the end will reduce the amount of time you spend horsing around in the dungeon. I'm also willing to bet that the majority of players doesn't rush, and that the vast majority of players will set foot in Daemonheim before they get to 60-70 through tears and pengus. Those people don't _need_ to know this stuff, but it may be interesting to them nonetheless. Still, I'm hesitant to call it basics that everybody should know.

[Obtaurian]

A paragraph each? I don't think you guys realize how expansive a proper dungeoneering guide would be. None of the advanced dg techniques I've previously listed should be incorporated into this guide, because this guide covers BASICS only. Best to keep them separate for ease-of-access.

Um, yeah, I probably meant to say section. I realize you're not going to cover special tactics for all bosses in a single paragraph :P having them on separate pages is probably a good idea.

 

No, this guide actually pertains to both "rush" and "non-rush" (completely outdated terms considering that no-one does "non-rushing"), so it can't be considered a "speed" or "efficiency" guide. Rather, it covers the basics that ANY dungeoneering team - regardless of experience, play style, whatever - must know.

Well, everything but the section on etiquette focuses on techniques that in the end will reduce the amount of time you spend horsing around in the dungeon. I'm also willing to bet that the majority of players doesn't rush, and that the vast majority of players will set foot in Daemonheim before they get to 60-70 through tears and pengus. Those people don't _need_ to know this stuff, but it may be interesting to them nonetheless. Still, him hesitant to call it basics that everybody should know.

 

I'm facedesking so hard right now. THERE IS NOTHING IN THIS GUIDE THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERY DUNGEONEERING TEAM THAT HAS EVER BEEN CREATED. EVER. As such, it is a guide of basics.

 

I'm done discussing this. You should try to be less defensive and start being more receptive of constructive criticism. I was honestly thinking of recommending this guide to the multitudes of people who ask about dungeoneering basics in H&A (once the requested changes had been made), but [bleep] that. I won't be promoting ignorance on Tip.it, unlike Tip.it staff/crew.

 

Enjoy your guide.

[Jimmyw3000]

THERE IS NOTHING IN THIS GUIDE THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERY DUNGEONEERING TEAM THAT HAS EVER BEEN CREATED. EVER. As such, it is a guide of basics.

you've convinced me of your view.

 

I now support the motion of renaming this guide.