Masking the True Problem

[Crocefisso]

In the old days I use rs as a chatroom/facebook/social/rp media. It was really never about levels. I spend more time goofing around and making friends rather than getting xp and more xp. Few had 99s and few really cared enough to want 99s.

 

I really hope rs can become like that again.

I agree, but I've come to reconcile myself with the fact that it's a quixotic fantasy.

[GlowinRedM]

In the old days I use rs as a chatroom/facebook/social/rp media. It was really never about levels. I spend more time goofing around and making friends rather than getting xp and more xp. Few had 99s and few really cared enough to want 99s.

 

I really hope rs can become like that again.

 

this sums it all up for me

[Guest jrhairychest]

Which involves not achieving goals by doing things too slowly. I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making a game with less grind - why exactly are people against it?

I think some wires are getting crossed here. From what i see people are agreeing on two things:

1. We would not mind an alternative grind thats more interactive (such as the smithing update).

2. We do not want to eliminate the grind. We still want it to take hours and hours to reach desirable levels (aka we dont want it to be WoW where you can reach max level in a few weeks).

 

I like what you've said here. The problem is that for some the first point is used as a smokescreen for what they really don't want in your second point. Many don't want to put in the time. They have the expecation of high levels/99's for the least amount of effort and time put into the game. If updates don't give faster XP then these players are disappointed and complain some more.

 

It's something I've always been against simply because...hey...I actually enjoy taking my tme in the game on my levels. I don't want the likes of RC to have a dubious reputation as something like fletching. There's no point to playing a game that's over before it's begun. The reason I have stayed with RS for the last 5 years is because of it's longevity.

 

Edit - Perhaps they made RS too accessible for those who were never going to get into the spirit of the game and the grind that made it.

[Kaida23]

Perhaps they made RS too accessible for those who were never going to get into the spirit of the game and the grind that made it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. RS is definitely not for those looking for an instant gratification/god cheat code/warp to the final boss kind of game.

[quitthegame]

Ok, the game takes too long, and you don't enjoy the game, that's cool, enjoy finding a new game that's more suited for you. I wish you well.

 

Buuuut: The irony here is that you take soooo many paragraphs to explain how Runescape takes too long to play. Perhaps this explains why you started playing such a grindy game in the first place, these hidden tendencies that incline you in that direction seemingly against your better judgement. You feel like you want to play a game that gets right to the complicated endgame,( of which there are a plethora,) but something impels you to stick with this grindfest; but to change it from the inside, as if by changing RS you might change yourself. It's a chimaera, my friend. As the Dalai Lama says, if you want to change Gielenor, change yourself first.

[hatebringer]

Perhaps they made RS too accessible for those who were never going to get into the spirit of the game and the grind that made it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. RS is definitely not for those looking for an instant gratification/god cheat code/warp to the final boss kind of game.

 

And again that is why I love this game and continue to play it because everything feels like an achievement. Every level and grind and item i obtain is a great feeling. Even thou some things take forever to get (99 agility :o) i really believe that this game isn't meant to be able to power through maxed out in a few months.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Which involves not achieving goals by doing things too slowly. I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making a game with less grind - why exactly are people against it?

I think some wires are getting crossed here. From what i see people are agreeing on two things:

1. We would not mind an alternative grind thats more interactive (such as the smithing update).

2. We do not want to eliminate the grind. We still want it to take hours and hours to reach desirable levels (aka we dont want it to be WoW where you can reach max level in a few weeks).

 

I'll take this a step further. The so-called grind needs to be entertaining and captivating enough for the general target demographic of RuneScape continue. Things like diversions and minigames were the initial attempt at replacing grind, but you soon realize that you'll just be grinding those minigames out too. The most prominent examples: Soul Wars and Stealing Creation.

 

If the game could be rebuilt on a foundation that made skilling more interactive, rather than a battle of cost efficiency, then this could help tons.

 

Another thing that would help is to severely reduce the reliance on GP in the middle- to end-game. This means that the player would have to earn more things themselves, but this would allow room for the player to acquire levels for skilling. The logic has to be worked out there, of course - something which takes me out of the scope of this topic.

 

Perhaps they made RS too accessible for those who were never going to get into the spirit of the game and the grind that made it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. RS is definitely not for those looking for an instant gratification/god cheat code/warp to the final boss kind of game.

 

Only problem is that their target demographic is looking for just that. This is why you notice some stronger permanence of Members' advertising into the free game now, since level skills in Members is way faster than F2P.

 

There's no point in an instant 99, but at the very least, make the 99 feel more like fun instead of more like work...

 

Ok, the game takes too long, and you don't enjoy the game, that's cool, enjoy finding a new game that's more suited for you. I wish you well.

 

Buuuut: The irony here is that you take soooo many paragraphs to explain how Runescape takes too long to play. Perhaps this explains why you started playing such a grindy game in the first place, these hidden tendencies that incline you in that direction seemingly against your better judgement. You feel like you want to play a game that gets right to the complicated endgame,( of which there are a plethora,) but something impels you to stick with this grindfest; but to change it from the inside, as if by changing RS you might change yourself. It's a chimaera, my friend. As the Dalai Lama says, if you want to change Gielenor, change yourself first.

 

So I can derive from this post that you've all but missed my point, right? Let me help you along a bit - I "retired" back in June.

 

With this in mind, go back and re-read the main post. Think about the points I've raised. When you're ready to respond, I'm ready to listen. :)

[quitthegame]

"So I can derive from this post that you've all but missed my point, right?"

 

No.

 

" Let me help you along a bit - I "retired" back in June."

 

But you're still posting about how to change RuneScape, and keeping up with every update so that you can post intellegibly on the current state of the game, and make threads of this length about it?

1. You haven't really 'retired' in the full sense of the word.

2. That kind of devotion to the game proves that RS is a much better game,to you, than you claim it is. Your actions speak soooo much louder than your words. Heck, I've quit RS 3-4x. When I quit, do I make any posts whatsoever about RS here? No.

 

 

"With this in mind, go back and re-read the main post. Think about the points I've raised. When you're ready to respond, I'm ready to listen. :) "

 

It's customary to settle terms of payment before placing an order like this. I charge 200$ an hour for that kind of work. PM me if you'd still like to hire me at that price, and we'll work out some method of payment. It goes without saying that a gentleman would never callously order someone around like that without them being your ward or in your employ already, so I'll just assume if I don't hear from you that my rates are too high, and not that you didn't intend to hire me to perform those tasks.

[Althalus7]

You're all wrong This is why Runescape will always have people playing it. Playing slot machines isn't any more entertaining and is just as repetitive as anything (e.g. mining, fishing) but it's a huge industry. So...I guess Jagex has got you all there.

[Guest jrhairychest]

I'll take this a step further. The so-called grind needs to be entertaining and captivating enough for the general target demographic of RuneScape continue. Things like diversions and minigames were the initial attempt at replacing grind, but you soon realize that you'll just be grinding those minigames out too. The most prominent examples: Soul Wars and Stealing Creation.

 

If the game could be rebuilt on a foundation that made skilling more interactive, rather than a battle of cost efficiency, then this could help tons.

 

Another thing that would help is to severely reduce the reliance on GP in the middle- to end-game. This means that the player would have to earn more things themselves, but this would allow room for the player to acquire levels for skilling. The logic has to be worked out there, of course - something which takes me out of the scope of this topic.

 

This is because players do the same thing to death until they're bored of the skill or minigame. It's nothing to do with a grindy game, its how that player plays their own game. So in the end it's up to the player to vary their gameplay. Unless the player takes their own responsibility in doing this it won't matter what changes Jagex make - The same players will still complain because they'll either flog whatever Jagex put out next to death or complain it doesn't give them enough xp.

 

Reducing the reliance on GP is also up to the player. Anyone can level something like herblore by simply buying the skill. Where's the fun in that? I steal my own herb seeds, grow them and level that way. I change skills accordingly and for me it has never got boring. The best thing is it doesn't cost me a bean, it varies my gameplay and it's fun. My point being everyone has the choice to either earn those things themselves or go out and buy them.

 

If players can't take responsibility for their own gameplay, what do they expect?

 

Perhaps they made RS too accessible for those who were never going to get into the spirit of the game and the grind that made it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. RS is definitely not for those looking for an instant gratification/god cheat code/warp to the final boss kind of game.

 

Only problem is that their target demographic is looking for just that. This is why you notice some stronger permanence of Members' advertising into the free game now, since level skills in Members is way faster than F2P.

 

 

There's no point in an instant 99, but at the very least, make the 99 feel more like fun instead of more like work...

Fun is again up to the player. Keep doing the same thing over again and you're gonna find it hard work. Jagex provides you with the tools but it's up to you how you use them.

 

Ok, the game takes too long, and you don't enjoy the game, that's cool, enjoy finding a new game that's more suited for you. I wish you well.

 

Buuuut: The irony here is that you take soooo many paragraphs to explain how Runescape takes too long to play. Perhaps this explains why you started playing such a grindy game in the first place, these hidden tendencies that incline you in that direction seemingly against your better judgement. You feel like you want to play a game that gets right to the complicated endgame,( of which there are a plethora,) but something impels you to stick with this grindfest; but to change it from the inside, as if by changing RS you might change yourself. It's a chimaera, my friend. As the Dalai Lama says, if you want to change Gielenor, change yourself first.

 

So I can derive from this post that you've all but missed my point, right? Let me help you along a bit - I "retired" back in June.

 

With this in mind, go back and re-read the main post. Think about the points I've raised. When you're ready to respond, I'm ready to listen. :)

 

Delepaz does have some points here. Quitting is the most logical option in a game you've obviously become unhappy with, perhaps spending too many hours on it? You could play something else that suits you better, rather than expecting a game to change to suit you.

[Pinata]

While I do agree at part, that RS certainly is a very grindy game, I don't see it only as a bad thing. Besides, not everything in my opinion is a "mindless grind."

 

Actually there is awful alot of content in RuneScape (compared to many other games I've ever played) to do many different things, like minigames, distractions and diversions, quests, miniquests, collect things, train skills, play games, build house or throw a houseparty. Just to name a few. I really can't recall remembering games that would be more versatile than RuneScape is.

 

On the other hand, while I personally don't like all the skills, I do understand why some other people like. What I see as the problem here, is that awful alot of people can't really agree with not being great in everything. It's a game, and one wants to be good in every skill and every activity. Have people ever thought that perhaps you don't need to have all levels in 99, or every item in game to have fun in it?

 

One thing I would like to see, is more rewards for players who wish to stick around on certain skills, instead of going through the meta-game. I personally am a meta-gamer, and do try to find out interesting aspects from all around the game, but I do enjoy some skills more than others. Frankly, in skills that I like the most, I've already reached level 99 and unlocked pretty much all the possible content the skill adds in. There is really no other reason than "ranks" to go for past 13 million experience. 13 million experience, after all, is not that much for a game which is designed to take years to get good at. Adding max and completionist capes certainly threw the game into the meta-gamer direction, and I think it's a bit onesided view.

 

So in my opinion, I would of course, like to see more content, but I don't think that is the real problem. I think the problem (like some have already said) is in the fact, that everyone thinks they have to unlock all the content and be in the very top, to be able to enjoy the game. No wonder it gets frustrating, when the game has so much content and more is coming all the time. I think there should be "impressive" rewards for those too, who might not want to go for 2475 or 2496 total. :-)

 

 

Best post here, I only do skills I enjoy or are fast enough that it doesn't really matter like, prayer/herblore. I also don't understand why people force themselves to be bored, going for all 99s. I understand if you like repetition, but when people complain about how boring it is, why do they make themselves bored in their free time? Runescape is meant for entertainment, it shouldn't cover your feeling of accomplishment. That is what real life is for. You also don't need to be maxed stats to have fun, maybe to do nex, but if youre playing RS for bossing, I'd suggest a different game. I just think if people took a step back, and had fun, didn't play rs to pass the time, or to have self gratification, it would be a much better game community wise.

 

In other words people should make RS more like a hobby rather than a timekiller.

 

I hear people say, I only play rs because I have nothing better/else to do.

 

I don't hear people say, I only play instruments/sports/games/collect stuff because they have nothing else to do, but because they enjoy it.

[Assume Nothing]

In order to avoid confusion - there needs to be a little more clarity in the posts on this thread. There is a subtle, yet profound difference that differentiates the concept of grinding in the context of doing a repetitive activity (e.g. mining, runecrafting, agility), to the concept of what's essentially grinding (e.g. DK's, Tds, etc.) that doesn't feel as mundane/monotonous as the aforementioned activities. The unpredictability, the risky nature and the level of interaction is at completely different magnitudes, and thus it alleviates the fatigue that would normally be associated with 'grinding'.

 

Non linear gameplay is a double edged sword - it allows players to do what they like, but it also allows players to bore themselves by doing something they don't like, but is expected to have. It's too bad that we have too many people that are determined to get a specific high level goal, as 99's have become a social norm. The problem seems to be that most training methods, including Slayer, is considered to be too mundane.

 

To the guy with 1 postcount: It would be better if you were to provide a quote, as it's difficult to trust a new user with links (tip.it is prone to phishers). Your argument seems highly flawed though - people play slot machines for completely different reasons than to play RS, and to say it's the same/similar is simply quite ignorant of the intent of the players.

[Maximusa]

I play the game because I like the grind. Its a game for mindless fun. It also has the option to be less grindless depending on what I want to do anyway. Loads of other reasons I like it too..but thats an important reason.

 

Its why players that bot honestly just need to step back, think about their life, their hobbies. Consider if they arnt enjoying the game, feel the need to bot? Then play another freaking game you idiot! Find something you do enjoy.

 

I can understand bug abuse, I wouldnt do it but I do understand it. I can understand cracking games to make the games more enjoyable. (Which proper rs you cant.) However botting never made much sense. I just do something else or find another game.

 

Even games I have cheated a bit because it actively made the game more fun to have extra features - Which I still actively PLAYED at the computer. (Even then it tends to be a separate thing to do away from legit play - Which you do elsewhere and also enjoyed.) I never did understand the fanboy religious loyalty towards bot makers/crackers/wtf. I mean I have to read these idiots to make sure I know what im using etc to try be safe as possible.

[Kaida23]

While I'll admit that I've also used cheats/cracks to open up higher level content in some of my single-player PC games (it is pretty cool to walk though a game laying waste to all I see :grin: ), I always go back to playing the game properly after a while because there's no feeling of accomplishment and the game becomes very boring very quickly. I guess that's why I don't see the point in botting RS, it takes away any feelings of having achieved something. Even if it is just in a video game.

[stonewall337]

Or make skilling pay off somehow, some way to get rid of wines/broad arrows, etc. Some reason to train those skills.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Or make skilling pay off somehow, some way to get rid of wines/broad arrows, etc. Some reason to train those skills.

You mean, like adding more commodities to the Mobilisng Armies list?... :P

But yeah, it'd definitely be good if they could introduce an alternative disposal method for many finished products, especially those that don't deplete themselves normally (140k broad arrows, ugh...)

[Blyaunte]

Or make skilling pay off somehow, some way to get rid of wines/broad arrows, etc. Some reason to train those skills.

 

Well there's ^this^ for sure.

 

There's a lot of "meta-gaming" solutions out there wherein you can max-skill quickly, with a lot less grind, but your bank account suffers in the short term for it.

 

The real reward is, as you know, that once you get the "skilling" out of the way, you've a lot more time for "end game" scenarios which are far more profitable.

 

... but I wonder too -- if the problem is not as much an issue of the community involved, as opposed to the actual game play. Do we, as players, put way too much emphasis on the "e-peen" (i.e. coins, items and skill levels), and not enough emphasis on the community itself? I wonder. :unsure:

 

Last night, one of my clan mates attained her first ever 99 skill (woodcutting), and it was a momentous occasion for her. Most of the clan gathered at the site and we watched her get her 99 skill and her cape. She was so emotionally moved by the moment that she actually had to go AFK to get some tissues and dry her tears. It simply meant that much to her to not only achieve the 99 skill, but to also have her friends around her lending her their support and approval.

 

Now, the non-sentimental among you will poke fun at this -- sure, go ahead. But those among you who understand what it means to have both the community around you, and appreciate the work and dedication involved in achieving the skill level, may actually appreciate what she felt last night, upon achieving that ever-elusive first 99 skill.

 

:shades:

[Kaida23]

... but I wonder too -- if the problem is not as much an issue of the community involved, as opposed to the actual game play. Do we, as players, put way too much emphasis on the "e-peen" (i.e. coins, items and skill levels), and not enough emphasis on the community itself? I wonder. :unsure:

Unfortunately, the bot scourge of the last year has mostly done away with any remaining feelings of community the average player might have had left. I've been seeing that slowly return now that they're gone but sometimes I'm afraid that the damage has already been done.

 

Of course, that's not going to stop me from chatting with anyone around me that wants to. An hour of skilling and chatting with less xp is better than grinding max xp per hour anytime. :grin:

 

Personally, I always try to attend when my friends achieve a 99 whenever I can, be it their first or their tenth. I don't know if it counts as being sentimental, but the TIF community has helped me maintain my faith in my fellow players and supporting their achievements has been a big part of that.

[Blyaunte]

... but I wonder too -- if the problem is not as much an issue of the community involved, as opposed to the actual game play. Do we, as players, put way too much emphasis on the "e-peen" (i.e. coins, items and skill levels), and not enough emphasis on the community itself? I wonder. :unsure:

Unfortunately, the bot scourge of the last year has mostly done away with any remaining feelings of community the average player might have had left. I've been seeing that slowly return now that they're gone but sometimes I'm afraid that the damage has already been done.

 

Of course, that's not going to stop me from chatting with anyone around me that wants to. An hour of skilling and chatting with less xp is better than grinding max xp per hour anytime. :grin:

 

Personally, I always try to attend when my friends achieve a 99 whenever I can, be it their first or their tenth. I don't know if it counts as being sentimental, but the TIF community has helped me maintain my faith in my fellow players and supporting their achievements has been a big part of that.

 

Well considering that the "community" itself has considerably "shrunk" in the past week, with most P2P worlds averaging running in the 300-400 players per world range on any given night, and F2P worlds averaging considerably less, it may well be more like those heady early days of RSC when one could wander the world and not see another soul. When you did actually see another player, you were so grateful for outside contact that you'd willingly start up a friendly conversation.

 

I dunno -- most places I go, I'm not seeing a lot of people, but when I do see someone they're almost always friendly now.

 

I am hopeful that the friendly "community" aspect of the game is going to return -- so far, it seems well on its way in any event ...

 

:mrgreen:

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

It's been about a week since this CF was deployed, and while there's still plenty more time left to reflect and analyze what's happened to the game, some preliminaries can be teased out.

 

- Of the "active" community, 60% of the players were actively botting. Of that, 90% came from F2P. That is a lot of players, even from the sliver that P2P owns up to.

- From some of the content reactions at Runefest, it seems that the content creators have conflicting goals. They do want to make the game less grindy, but can't seem to find the first step on how to do so. There's also just the interesting confusion/reaction about content updates that are designed to serve one purpose but ultimately fail (e.g. absorption update).

 

So, we need more time to see what effect this has had on what's left of the game. The population did go above 100,000 for the weekend, which is promising, but not much higher than 135K.

 

"So I can derive from this post that you've all but missed my point, right?"

 

No.

 

" Let me help you along a bit - I "retired" back in June."

 

But you're still posting about how to change RuneScape, and keeping up with every update so that you can post intellegibly on the current state of the game, and make threads of this length about it?

1. You haven't really 'retired' in the full sense of the word.

2. That kind of devotion to the game proves that RS is a much better game,to you, than you claim it is. Your actions speak soooo much louder than your words. Heck, I've quit RS 3-4x. When I quit, do I make any posts whatsoever about RS here? No.

 

 

"With this in mind, go back and re-read the main post. Think about the points I've raised. When you're ready to respond, I'm ready to listen. "

 

It's customary to settle terms of payment before placing an order like this. I charge 200$ an hour for that kind of work. PM me if you'd still like to hire me at that price, and we'll work out some method of payment. It goes without saying that a gentleman would never callously order someone around like that without them being your ward or in your employ already, so I'll just assume if I don't hear from you that my rates are too high, and not that you didn't intend to hire me to perform those tasks.

 

I refer to the air quotations I made. Retiring from a video game that's low-impact isn't what I'd call "normal". Something like retiring from professional SC2, if only to save one's wrists, is beyond justifyable. Not just that, but I do like to stay current on the company, so I can learn from its successes/failures so I may prepare for my own future development firm. As a Computer Science major, we get very little experience with real-world situations, and I like to observe whenever and whereever possible.

 

As for the payment, if you want to re-read the post or reply to these points, then I will assume that you have waived your fee, and will not need to contact me for any form of price consulting. If this is not the case, PM me and we can arrange terms in which I don't pay you anything to hear your opinion, and you don't pay me to hear mine. :)

 

 

I'll take this a step further. The so-called grind needs to be entertaining and captivating enough for the general target demographic of RuneScape continue. Things like diversions and minigames were the initial attempt at replacing grind, but you soon realize that you'll just be grinding those minigames out too. The most prominent examples: Soul Wars and Stealing Creation.

 

If the game could be rebuilt on a foundation that made skilling more interactive, rather than a battle of cost efficiency, then this could help tons.

 

Another thing that would help is to severely reduce the reliance on GP in the middle- to end-game. This means that the player would have to earn more things themselves, but this would allow room for the player to acquire levels for skilling. The logic has to be worked out there, of course - something which takes me out of the scope of this topic.

 

This is because players do the same thing to death until they're bored of the skill or minigame. It's nothing to do with a grindy game, its how that player plays their own game. So in the end it's up to the player to vary their gameplay. Unless the player takes their own responsibility in doing this it won't matter what changes Jagex make - The same players will still complain because they'll either flog whatever Jagex put out next to death or complain it doesn't give them enough xp.

 

Reducing the reliance on GP is also up to the player. Anyone can level something like herblore by simply buying the skill. Where's the fun in that? I steal my own herb seeds, grow them and level that way. I change skills accordingly and for me it has never got boring. The best thing is it doesn't cost me a bean, it varies my gameplay and it's fun. My point being everyone has the choice to either earn those things themselves or go out and buy them.

 

If players can't take responsibility for their own gameplay, what do they expect?

I see your point, but I respectfully disagree.

 

First, many of us take pride in making fun of a normally boring situation or activity. However, if the game itself is captivating enough, there's no need to be distracted from the grind. I am of the opinion that the game should be built on top of more engaging ways of playing the game instead of rewarding repetition.

 

As for reliance on GP, there's ways to reduce that within the game as well as the culture. [Although, fat chance with the culture.] Simply allowing only a certain tier of goods to be purchased, then having the player earn their way up to better tiers of equipment would be the way I would solve that. Having boss NPCs drop exclusive enhancements that could be added to existing, easily obtainable equipment (thus rendering it untradable), would also help. Bind-on-Pick-Up isn't something I'm a fan of, but this is another way to reduce reliance on GP - instead of being able to simply buy the best gear, you'd have to earn it.

 

Delepaz does have some points here. Quitting is the most logical option in a game you've obviously become unhappy with, perhaps spending too many hours on it? You could play something else that suits you better, rather than expecting a game to change to suit you.

 

This is why I said he missed my point. I wasn't referring to myself - I had stated long ago that I already left the game. I was, and always have been, examining this from the angle of Jagex's target demographic. Saying, "if you don't like it, then quit" may work for a disgruntled veteran player, but some newbie that sees this won't put up with that.

 

This topic has always been, in my eyes, what Jagex needs to do to recapture the imagination and enthusiasm that only their target demorgraphic can bring. Without new players, there is no RuneScape.

 

In order to avoid confusion - there needs to be a little more clarity in the posts on this thread. There is a subtle, yet profound difference that differentiates the concept of grinding in the context of doing a repetitive activity (e.g. mining, runecrafting, agility), to the concept of what's essentially grinding (e.g. DK's, Tds, etc.) that doesn't feel as mundane/monotonous as the aforementioned activities. The unpredictability, the risky nature and the level of interaction is at completely different magnitudes, and thus it alleviates the fatigue that would normally be associated with 'grinding'.

 

Non linear gameplay is a double edged sword - it allows players to do what they like, but it also allows players to bore themselves by doing something they don't like, but is expected to have. It's too bad that we have too many people that are determined to get a specific high level goal, as 99's have become a social norm. The problem seems to be that most training methods, including Slayer, is considered to be too mundane.

 

I agree to an extent.

 

There is a difference between grinding skills and grinding minigames for skills. However, this difference is subtle, and becomes less pronounced when players begin using minigames as their sole form of leveling up (Soul Wars, Pest Control). Some boss matches or boss-like NPCs are indeed in their own league, and wouldn't be considered a grind. Although my list is pretty small - TDs and Nex.

 

I play the game because I like the grind. Its a game for mindless fun. It also has the option to be less grindless depending on what I want to do anyway. Loads of other reasons I like it too..but thats an important reason.

 

Its why players that bot honestly just need to step back, think about their life, their hobbies. Consider if they arnt enjoying the game, feel the need to bot? Then play another freaking game you idiot! Find something you do enjoy.

 

I can understand bug abuse, I wouldnt do it but I do understand it. I can understand cracking games to make the games more enjoyable. (Which proper rs you cant.) However botting never made much sense. I just do something else or find another game.

 

Even games I have cheated a bit because it actively made the game more fun to have extra features - Which I still actively PLAYED at the computer. (Even then it tends to be a separate thing to do away from legit play - Which you do elsewhere and also enjoyed.) I never did understand the fanboy religious loyalty towards bot makers/crackers/wtf. I mean I have to read these idiots to make sure I know what im using etc to try be safe as possible.

 

Right, there are people that like the grind. What about the target demographic? Do you expect them to sit down and grind out these skills if they're not having fun while doing it? Now, I realize that "fun" is a subjective phrase, and should always be treated with a grain of salt. However, fun is a very real thing, and should always be factored in when we're talking about playing a game. If a player doesn't have fun grinding out, but enjoys the end-game content, they'll do whatever they can do to skip the boring stuff, and get straight to the fun part. It's the same reason people often used Gameshark and cheat codes; the boring stuff was in the way of actually having fun, so they found an out.

 

Is this ideal? Well, no. I don't think that anyone that wants a short cut to a game should get one. Is this the current trend? Yes. Especially in MMOs, where they're grind intensive.

 

Or make skilling pay off somehow, some way to get rid of wines/broad arrows, etc. Some reason to train those skills.

 

Well there's ^this^ for sure.

 

There's a lot of "meta-gaming" solutions out there wherein you can max-skill quickly, with a lot less grind, but your bank account suffers in the short term for it.

 

The real reward is, as you know, that once you get the "skilling" out of the way, you've a lot more time for "end game" scenarios which are far more profitable.

 

... but I wonder too -- if the problem is not as much an issue of the community involved, as opposed to the actual game play. Do we, as players, put way too much emphasis on the "e-peen" (i.e. coins, items and skill levels), and not enough emphasis on the community itself? I wonder.

 

Last night, one of my clan mates attained her first ever 99 skill (woodcutting), and it was a momentous occasion for her. Most of the clan gathered at the site and we watched her get her 99 skill and her cape. She was so emotionally moved by the moment that she actually had to go AFK to get some tissues and dry her tears. It simply meant that much to her to not only achieve the 99 skill, but to also have her friends around her lending her their support and approval.

 

Now, the non-sentimental among you will poke fun at this -- sure, go ahead. But those among you who understand what it means to have both the community around you, and appreciate the work and dedication involved in achieving the skill level, may actually appreciate what she felt last night, upon achieving that ever-elusive first 99 skill.

 

 

 

This is a great reply. I feel mostly the same way - players enjoy talking about efficiency and rushing through levels just to get to the fun part. We often skip over the more interesting aspect of the game - sociability. For instance, back in 2009 I took a very long path to 92 Smithing - 70,000 iron ores.

 

Efficient? For the budget I had, you bet it was.

Boring? I could have watched paint dry twice and felt more accomplished.

 

What kept it interesting was the sociability aspect of it. That was around the time I happened into Mod MMG's clan chat, and made a lot of friends there. No one really bashed my inefficient leveling scheme, nor did they want to. That was really just about a player going at their own pace, enjoying the game.

 

Nowadays it isn't like that, and that's becoming painfully evident. The community isn't focused on having fun because the game isn't as fun as it once was. I feel that the two of them are interconnected; feel free to disagree with me on this.

[Kaida23]

The community isn't focused on having fun because the game isn't as fun as it once was. I feel that the two of them are interconnected; feel free to disagree with me on this.

The community moved away from focusing on fun because the bot drove us away from the community. No, scratch that, the bots became the community. People aren't going to feel like they're having fun if everyone they see around them is a bot. Now that they're gone, we're slowly seeing a return of the sense of community that was once there.

[Guest jrhairychest]

I see your point, but I respectfully disagree.

 

First, many of us take pride in making fun of a normally boring situation or activity. However, if the game itself is captivating enough, there's no need to be distracted from the grind. I am of the opinion that the game should be built on top of more engaging ways of playing the game instead of rewarding repetition.

 

Having listened to Andrew and Paul Gower (amongst others) at Runefest they were specific that skills were there for quest pre-requisites. The game is supposed to be about quests and immersing ourselves into the RS world, not to judge it purely on skill base and not to flog skills, or indeed other content, to death until we become sick of them.

 

You say ‘The game isn’t as fun as it once was’ based on a lack of community aspect. Doesn’t this mean that you’ve set your own tone for the game and followed the flock instead of doing your own thing? Have you made this game a grindfest for yourself instead of making it a fun thing to play? If Jagex changed tried to change the tone of gameplay would you really be that interested in it or would you just go along with the fastest xp or the best drops because that’s what you’ve always done and simply flog the same content again to death?

 

As for reliance on GP, there's ways to reduce that within the game as well as the culture. [Although, fat chance with the culture.] Simply allowing only a certain tier of goods to be purchased, then having the player earn their way up to better tiers of equipment would be the way I would solve that. Having boss NPCs drop exclusive enhancements that could be added to existing, easily obtainable equipment (thus rendering it untradable), would also help. Bind-on-Pick-Up isn't something I'm a fan of, but this is another way to reduce reliance on GP - instead of being able to simply buy the best gear, you'd have to earn it.

 

This type of thing is happening already in areas such as dung rewards, quests and task rewards and I’m sure they will expand this further. I agree with this.

 

 

This is why I said he missed my point. I wasn't referring to myself - I had stated long ago that I already left the game. I was, and always have been, examining this from the angle of Jagex's target demographic. Saying, "if you don't like it, then quit" may work for a disgruntled veteran player, but some newbie that sees this won't put up with that.

 

This topic has always been, in my eyes, what Jagex needs to do to recapture the imagination and enthusiasm that only their target demorgraphic can bring. Without new players, there is no RuneScape.

 

When did you find newbies harping on about grinding, efficiency and the like? Skilling, fighting and quests are actually fun when you're a newbie as you don't get caught up in the 'must get 99' or 'best drops' culture. Newbies will still come to RS and those who like the game will progress. Those that don't won't. You can't please everyone.

 

Non linear gameplay is a double edged sword - it allows players to do what they like, but it also allows players to bore themselves by doing something they don't like, but is expected to have. It's too bad that we have too many people that are determined to get a specific high level goal, as 99's have become a social norm. The problem seems to be that most training methods, including Slayer, is considered to be too mundane.

You’ve pointed out here that it’s (quite correctly) primarily a player attitude problem, yet you conclude that it’s a game fault?

[Assume Nothing]

It's inherently two issues that must coexist in order to allow the issues to arise. I would say that I should have revised what I wrote before I pressed 'Post' though >.<

[Guest jrhairychest]

It's inherently two issues that must coexist in order to allow the issues to arise. I would say that I should have revised what I wrote before I pressed 'Post' though >.<

 

It would help if I did the same thing (put 'quote' instead of 'quite' in my last statement - Fixed).

 

Jagex are already moving to a revised combat system and a resetting of armour stats that will help with the likes of slayer. Your original quote seemed quite correct to me in that it is more about player attitude to the whole thing. I find it interesting that players blame the game for shortfalls in their playing style.