Masking the True Problem

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I'll be the first to admit it - I was highly skeptical of Jagex being able to successfully pull off a technical solution to stopping macro scripts. I'll also admit that, even though they can enjoy short term success, it will only be a matter of time before this hurdle is overcome.

 

However, it seems that we as a community have not realized what has happened to the game in the wake of the bot invasion. I won't disagree that bots were a significant issue, but ultimately, they were not the true problem.

 

First, let's review what the game's nature is. RuneScape has a vast amount of middle-game material, and very enticing end-game content. The only problem? You have to invest a substantial amount of time into the game itself to get to the endgame. Most people wouldn't see this as a problem, myself included, if it weren't for the repetitive, dull nature that the game gives us. Let's be honest - various facets of RuneScape's game are simply not entertaining, no matter how we try to bend our minds to make it so. As a former player, I couldn't really find myself enjoying Agility or Runecrafting, and before Make-X, I couldn't see myself breaking the level 80 threshold on Fletching, if only to save my wrists from intense CTS. However, after some years of enjoying the game's middle content - some six or so years since the release of RS2 - I was able to consider myself close to the endgame, which is considerably more enjoyable.

 

What it takes to get there, of course, is mind-numbing, wrist-tingling, brain-rotting, watch-paint-dry-and-you'll-get-more-entertainment-value-out-of-that-instead grinding. Many people simply hate the grind, and for the most part, the game hasn't been changed to break up the monotonous grind since its inception. Therefore, where an opportunity to take a shortcut with automated means exists, bots will flourish.

 

Next, let's review what bots actually did to the game. It's not hard to see that, for most everyone, they cheapened the level of gameplay and satisfaction we got out of the entire ordeal. In essence, it's not enjoyable to invest time [and money] into a game, only to have someone else breeze past you and your efforts in a fraction of the time it took you. Of course, there are legitimate players that did the same thing, however, they too have suffered from ennui or feel that the time to move on from the game is coming.

 

Bots also made skilling a considerably moot point in the game. If you could mine vast quantities of coal, Mith, and Adamantite, you were doing pretty good for yourself. Bots and RWT companies could outmine any quantity of legitimate players in no time at all, and thus, those goods acquired with technical means flooded the economy, and caused a major resource drop. Many will argue that this was beneficial for the game, since it meant that more players could level faster, or "buy" their levels to get to the endgame. I would be quick to disagree; bots drove prices down globally, meaning that legitimate players gathering the same goods were much, much worse off.

 

Bots and botters created friction between the loyal, legitimate player base and Jagex. This prompted Jagex to take drastic measures to "remove" them as best as they could at the time, but with each attempt being marked down with notable failure and even more friction, this caused both the player base and Jagex to become increasingly frantic about the situation. It also didn't help Jagex's public image and perception, either.

 

Third, we can see that from the success of Jagex's new deployment- Clusterfu ClusterFlutterer, bots and botting players were a very substantial portion of the active gaming community. It will take much longer to successfully ascertain any real information from this update, but the game itself hasn't peaked over 110,000 since the update. This can be seen as a form of both success and defeat, coming from the world's most popular F2P game - there aren't a lot of people actually playing the free game, in comparison to the subscription-based game.

 

This leads me into what the true problem with RuneScape is, and has always been: It's just not entertaining enough to the average gamer.

 

There are a lot of people that will willingly debate this with me (and I welcome it!), but the amount of people logging in after this update is a pretty telling sign. Their target demographic has all but moved on to greener pastures. No longer is Jagex capable of boasting about the number of players online at any one given time, unlike in the past, due to the general lack of interest in the game.

 

Now, there have been some unpopular moves that Jagex has made in regards to RuneScape over the years, many of which have caused what's left of their loyal fanbase to question where they stand or why they're still supporting the company. While it may be a little early to tell, it could very well be the case that the demographic that overwhelmingly supported Jagex's more controversial notions simply doesn't care about the game or where it ends up. It could be that the wool is finally being removed from the community's eyes about the state of the actual game.

 

My open question is now, even though it may be a bit too early to call it, where do you think Jagex can go from here? How can they adjust and learn from this? Do they have enough momentum left in the market to captivate an audience, even with the (alleged) release of Stellar Dawn and the new Transformers MMO?

 

My stance was outlined in a post I made way back in March on these very forums, which dealt with a solution to end bots - the only way that Jagex could adapt from here on out is to rethink the way the game is played, to make it more interesting. However, such a move like that at a time like this would finish off what's left of the community.

[Assume Nothing]

This has been reiterated time and time again - indeed, grind is a major factor that makes RuneScape a 'mind-less' game with overly simplistic gameplay where achievement (in the context of stats) is measured by persistence and determination, rather than actual ability.

 

It does seem that your OP is littered with rhetoric though - it may be in your interests to edit that in order to make your rant a little more persuasive. This was indeed the main gist of my article that's been published a few months ago.

 

EDIT - Is it possible to post a shorter version of a proposed solution? I would say a way to remove grind is to make many alternate training methods which are spontaneous, engaging and unpredictable.

 

I'd say by keeping a player's mind active, it does indeed enhance enjoyment of the game, as it's constantly devising strategies rather than anticipating a repetitive activity.

[Ellac]

I love the grind. It's awesome.

 

You have good points, but I enjoy RS *because* of the grind. I love to work, and when I have no schoolwork to do I play RS. Could get a job, but meh.

[Assume Nothing]

Whilst that's a valid point - perhaps JaGex should focus on creating alternate methods without the grind, and thus allow the player to choose how they want to play.

[Platinum_Myr]

I feel like the best ways to counteract feelings of grind involve

 

a) remove the bots, so that achievements have meaning (which they are working on)

 

b) introduce methods comparable to current fast methods which are more engaging, and spontaneous. fun to train methods which are not comparably decent experience rates have proven to flop in the past.

 

c) introduce "end-game" style content somewhere in the middle to upper reaches of the middle-game. Don't make me feel like I can't have fun bosses like nex simply because I am not willing to put so much time to get all of the contents necessary to compete.

 

d) make sure that this end-game style content is not swamped by better players (hint.. instanced bosses help a lot. especially if the reward is somehow not useful for super high leveled players)

 

e) provide, in game, features which allow performing chatting and other fun things. For example, allow me to play the types of games that are provided in the game shop from anywhere, IN GAME (no browser tab necessary) but still perform banking and doing skills such as that. Ala, words-with-friends style game against other rs players while performing levelup tasks.

 

f) update the private message system to see individual logs with other players, and be able to sort out what you last said to certain people.

 

Other good features which help eliminate grind would include proper team automation from across multiple worlds so that the time it takes to get a decent dungeoneering team for example, is minimized, and the game itself can be played. :)

[Guest jrhairychest]

Whilst that's a valid point - perhaps JaGex should focus on creating alternate methods without the grind, and thus allow the player to choose how they want to play.

 

They do provide alternatives, some of which I choose myself. The trouble is no matter how many alternatives are given, the same core will complain it's too grindy unless you make it so easy for them to 99 skills. It isn't the game that's the problem, it's player attitude with a lack of appreciation that anything worth having in the game takes time.

[Platinum_Myr]

They do provide alternatives, some of which I choose myself. The trouble is no matter how many alternatives are given, the same core will complain it's too grindy unless you make it so easy for them to 99 skills. It isn't the game that's the problem, it's player attitude with a lack of appreciation that anything worth having in the game takes time.

 

Correct. Also, the attitude that the only good way to train a skill is to get the fastest xp possible. (which is great for some). We focus on the goal instead of on the game itself. However, there is real grind that isn't just "omg this takes too long".

 

For example, I spent ~3 weeks unlocking the maximum levels for all of my temple trekking companions. I don't have a single 99. Had I spent the exact same amount of time, (in game, and note I don't play for 8-10 hrs every day) I could've gotten things like 99 cooking or similar. But Temple Trekking (after the revamp) is great fun! I really enjoyed it. I do not enjoy cooking things on a range as much.

 

Yes, this is mostly opinion. But if jagex provided minigames of that quality for skill training, that would be awesome.

[Will H]

I'd say that you have to get rid of the infection before you can heal the wound, even if it means the procedure is temporarily painful. One thing that I have seen is that with the update, the amount of customer trust in Jagex has risen quite a lot. It's that kind of trust that pushes the word-of-mouth advertisements that Runescape previously thrived on. Tackling and eliminating the 'grinding' aspects of the game without cheapening the effort required, which basically means adding varied and interesting content will keep that momentum going.

Make no mistake, Jagex did the right thing, they just need to keep going and make this game fun again.

 

Distractions and diversions are good, but what we really need is content that comes integrated with training skills. It may be worth actually slowing down the rate of xp given for doing things the traditional way, and then providing bonuses for doing more complicated alternative things that require thought on the spot to carry out, perhaps as a random event while training in the traditional way. Repetition should really be discouraged.

 

I personally love those moments when I'm tasked to go to an obscure location, and mentally calculate a route using the various teleportation networks in the game. Sometimes they'll involve using a fairy ring in feldip hills to catch a glider, or a lunar home teleport to grab a teleport to house tablet, and then diving in a house portal. Getting there faster is a little reward for thinking on my feet, and I'd like more of those little moments.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Correct. Also, the attitude that the only good way to train a skill is to get the fastest xp possible. (which is great for some). We focus on the goal instead of on the game itself. However, there is real grind that isn't just "omg this takes too long".

 

For example, I spent ~3 weeks unlocking the maximum levels for all of my temple trekking companions. I don't have a single 99. Had I spent the exact same amount of time, (in game, and note I don't play for 8-10 hrs every day) I could've gotten things like 99 cooking or similar. But Temple Trekking (after the revamp) is great fun! I really enjoyed it. I do not enjoy cooking things on a range as much.

 

Yes, this is mostly opinion. But if jagex provided minigames of that quality for skill training, that would be awesome.

 

I did 99 agility in Brimhaven with a group of friends and had a cracking time so I can see where the temple trekking comes in. Sure it could have been done faster, but not fun for me. You're absolutely right that the decision to vary gameplay works. You'll probably find those people who complain about grind are those who stick relentlessly to a skill and use the same methods all the time because they 'gotta get 99.......'.

[lordkafei]

They do provide alternatives, some of which I choose myself. The trouble is no matter how many alternatives are given, the same core will complain it's too grindy unless you make it so easy for them to 99 skills. It isn't the game that's the problem, it's player attitude with a lack of appreciation that anything worth having in the game takes time.

 

+1

 

These are the people Jagex has chosen to market to, however.

[Assume Nothing]

I don't think that's the point - there's simply an imbalance between desirable high level content versus the undesirable low level content. The proposed solution isn't to make the game faster, the goal is to make it seem less repetitive and 'mindless' - i.e. by making RS engaging, like the nature of PvP.

 

The effectiveness of the proposed update will largely depend on how they execute it.

[hatebringer]

To be honest I love the "grind" or competition to reach max 99 in all levels. It may be a pain to get all this grind xp for the skills but it still to me anyways is fun. The amount of older players has dwindled because the boringness but more so for the ages. I know when I first started college I quit rs for quite a long time and still dnt play at all compared to the amount I used to play but I still enjoy playing. Its more about being bored and having more to do instead of playing hour upon hour.

[J35u5_M4]

I agree with the part of the grinding, some skills should get revamped so they're actually fun to train, although I know that some people like the grinding repetitive skills, perhaps alternative methods for skills should be released, just like the Artisan's Workshop (Many say it sucked, but in my own opinion it made Smithing fun, I'm currently lv 95 Smithing and I've done Adamant Ceremonial Swords ever since 90, sometimes I even went there just for fun and XP was just a bonus), the truth is that there will always be people who want to get the best items with no effort at all, which is why gold farmers exist, and for gold farmers to get their cash, they use a major amount of bots.

 

A real solution for this problem would be, add a lot of extra content to every skill that is currently in a state of endless grinding, being that way they can attract more people to the game, and have fun training the skills (Although sometimes I enjoy the grind of RuneCrafting, most of the time I simply hate it, I know that there are people out there who love these skills, but the big majority of people don't like the grind, also, having a grindy game doesn't attract new players; they look for something new, something entertaining, something not-so grindy).

 

And I said this once and will say it again; we have to wait at least one week to see the real result of the bot nuke, because only after a good amount of time has passed, we'll actually see if the bots break their way in again or if they'll be left out for good, leaving legitimate players have their achievements be worth something once again.

 

On note the Author: It was a good read, good article my friend, keep it up.

[pal2002]

In the old days I use rs as a chatroom/facebook/social/rp media. It was really never about levels. I spend more time goofing around and making friends rather than getting xp and more xp. Few had 99s and few really cared enough to want 99s.

 

I really hope rs can become like that again.

[Sly_Wizard]

Bots botting is not an indicator that something is wrong with the game, but rather that the botter wants to get to the end/attain high level gear without putting in the manual time required to get there. This is true of any MMO.

[stonewall337]

I don't think that's the point - there's simply an imbalance between desirable high level content versus the undesirable low level content. The proposed solution isn't to make the game faster, the goal is to make it seem less repetitive and 'mindless' - i.e. by making RS engaging, like the nature of PvP.

 

The effectiveness of the proposed update will largely depend on how they execute it.

Or by fixing PvP (Better safe PvP with some type of reward) Death in combat (graves are idiotic.) Because bosses are so much more complex, or at least require more then one combat style, by nature one needs to risk more to be competitive. Dying @ DKS used to cost me3-5m. Now it'd cost me 40m and 8m worth of DG xp. Items kept on death is majorly broken, especially when lag is a major factor, as well as just the plain unresponsive nature of the game.

 

Also, no easier way to do complex tasks, like switch gear sets. Mousekeys plz?

 

Game is broke.

[Randox]

I read all the gold posts on one of the threads that enjoyed sticky status for a few hours on the update day, and MMG (the CEO) talked about how they are actually looking at the root problem, grinding. I don't expect anything to change soon, but I think Jagex might be coming around to the fact that the game is set up in a very frustrating format for people looking to get to the high ground. If they really can take on this problem, more power to them.

 

And yes, the bots might be able to counter the clusterflutter one day, but I've been looking at descriptions of what they actually did, and I think it could take the bot developers even longer to counter it than it took Jagex to program it (10 months or so). And it's not like its the only barrier they plan on throwing up, in a very short period of time. The bots it affected are going to be out of commission for a long time I think. Long enough for Jagex to reformat the game into something a little less monotonous if they so choose.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Thanks for the replies, folks.

 

First, to everyone that "likes" the grind - okay, you like it. There are plenty of people that don't, though. ;)

 

I don't think that's the point - there's simply an imbalance between desirable high level content versus the undesirable low level content. The proposed solution isn't to make the game faster, the goal is to make it seem less repetitive and 'mindless' - i.e. by making RS engaging, like the nature of PvP.

 

The effectiveness of the proposed update will largely depend on how they execute it.

 

I disagree about the "mindless" part. If a game is mindless then its "interesting" value is still pretty low.

 

However, certainly the game can be made more interesting while minimizing/reducing/penalizing repetitive tasks.

 

 

Bots botting is not an indicator that something is wrong with the game, but rather that the botter wants to get to the end/attain high level gear without putting in the manual time required to get there. This is true of any MMO.

 

This begs the question, does every MMO have to be bogged down by hours upon hours of tedium? I think that Jagex could do better.

 

 

I don't think that's the point - there's simply an imbalance between desirable high level content versus the undesirable low level content. The proposed solution isn't to make the game faster, the goal is to make it seem less repetitive and 'mindless' - i.e. by making RS engaging, like the nature of PvP.

 

The effectiveness of the proposed update will largely depend on how they execute it.

Or by fixing PvP (Better safe PvP with some type of reward) Death in combat (graves are idiotic.) Because bosses are so much more complex, or at least require more then one combat style, by nature one needs to risk more to be competitive. Dying @ DKS used to cost me3-5m. Now it'd cost me 40m and 8m worth of DG xp. Items kept on death is majorly broken, especially when lag is a major factor, as well as just the plain unresponsive nature of the game.

 

Also, no easier way to do complex tasks, like switch gear sets. Mousekeys plz?

 

Game is broke.

 

That would require an interface overhaul, not necessarily a game overhaul. But good points nonetheless.

 

 

I read all the gold posts on one of the threads that enjoyed sticky status for a few hours on the update day, and MMG (the CEO) talked about how they are actually looking at the root problem, grinding. I don't expect anything to change soon, but I think Jagex might be coming around to the fact that the game is set up in a very frustrating format for people looking to get to the high ground. If they really can take on this problem, more power to them.

 

And yes, the bots might be able to counter the clusterflutter one day, but I've been looking at descriptions of what they actually did, and I think it could take the bot developers even longer to counter it than it took Jagex to program it (10 months or so). And it's not like its the only barrier they plan on throwing up, in a very short period of time. The bots it affected are going to be out of commission for a long time I think. Long enough for Jagex to reformat the game into something a little less monotonous if they so choose.

 

I'll get my optimism of them looking into the grind soon out in the open - they've been looking into solving the bot problem since before Easter Eggs. I'll wait for them to look at the grind, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

As for bot makers defeating the ClusterFlutterer: It's only a matter of time. As long as CF isn't the infamous Halting Problem, it will be solved.

[Sona]

This begs the question, does every MMO have to be bogged down by hours upon hours of tedium? I think that Jagex could do better.

 

No.

 

Classical MMOs either have established end-game (WoW, L2, Dark Age of Camelot), completely determined by player interactions and player community (EVE), is Guild Wars, or operates on a instanced-persistent model (League of Legends, World of Tanks). Or it's got a specific premise that's its main draw - City of Heroes is a good example of a game that's still going pretty strong due to its strong roleplaying community.

 

The former makes the end-game accessible early in minor forms and offers a lot of "incentives" to grind to end game. The second basically determines what is end-game. Guild Wars is sort of unique in that it's basically a single player game and everything else is either for PVP or is for cosmetics, and the last two games can be played in bursts, making it feel like an actual game. I don't need to comment on League of Legends or Tanks - my best friend swears by tanks because he plays a little scouting tank. He goes in and dies and waits for ten minutes while the round is over. During the wait time he works on his engineering assignments.

 

(For the record, you could use other tanks and play other rounds - so it's not like you're waiting for long. Each round lasts for ten minutes max)

 

... Basically the first time I've seen a game actively contribute to productivity. League of Legends is a party game for me. I never play it without at least two or three people I know in real life. Needless to say, I find it enjoyable.

 

RS is what I do when I have ten-twenty minutes between classes, really. I pop in, farm a plant or kill a demon or something and then log back out. I have all the requirements for the quests anyways, which is what I'm really interested in. Some of RS's writing is surprisingly good. :P

[WoodenFruit]

If you don't like what you're grinding, do something that you do like.

[Assume Nothing]

Which involves not achieving goals by doing things too slowly. I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making a game with less grind - why exactly are people against it?

[War_Junky_91]

Which involves not achieving goals by doing things too slowly. I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making a game with less grind - why exactly are people against it?

I think some wires are getting crossed here. From what i see people are agreeing on two things:

1. We would not mind an alternative grind thats more interactive (such as the smithing update).

2. We do not want to eliminate the grind. We still want it to take hours and hours to reach desirable levels (aka we dont want it to be WoW where you can reach max level in a few weeks).

[Amonitas]

One of the reasons I love rs is because everything takes so long. Every level is an achievement. I love the grind, it's reason I play this game. I can relax and play and every single time I log out, I know my character is better.

But yeah, they should come up with alternatives that are more interesting, but similar in xp/h.

Also no more afk spots. It's bad game design.

[codecRS]

I dont mind them adding different ways of training that dont involve grinding, as long as they are similar xp rates and they leave the old methods in.

 

having skills like fishing and woodcutting that arent click intensive are one of the reasons i play it, its relaxing.

[Syd]

While I do agree at part, that RS certainly is a very grindy game, I don't see it only as a bad thing. Besides, not everything in my opinion is a "mindless grind."

 

Actually there is awful alot of content in RuneScape (compared to many other games I've ever played) to do many different things, like minigames, distractions and diversions, quests, miniquests, collect things, train skills, play games, build house or throw a houseparty. Just to name a few. I really can't recall remembering games that would be more versatile than RuneScape is.

 

On the other hand, while I personally don't like all the skills, I do understand why some other people like. What I see as the problem here, is that awful alot of people can't really agree with not being great in everything. It's a game, and one wants to be good in every skill and every activity. Have people ever thought that perhaps you don't need to have all levels in 99, or every item in game to have fun in it?

 

One thing I would like to see, is more rewards for players who wish to stick around on certain skills, instead of going through the meta-game. I personally am a meta-gamer, and do try to find out interesting aspects from all around the game, but I do enjoy some skills more than others. Frankly, in skills that I like the most, I've already reached level 99 and unlocked pretty much all the possible content the skill adds in. There is really no other reason than "ranks" to go for past 13 million experience. 13 million experience, after all, is not that much for a game which is designed to take years to get good at. Adding max and completionist capes certainly threw the game into the meta-gamer direction, and I think it's a bit onesided view.

 

So in my opinion, I would of course, like to see more content, but I don't think that is the real problem. I think the problem (like some have already said) is in the fact, that everyone thinks they have to unlock all the content and be in the very top, to be able to enjoy the game. No wonder it gets frustrating, when the game has so much content and more is coming all the time. I think there should be "impressive" rewards for those too, who might not want to go for 2475 or 2496 total. :-)