New/More Moderators

[Logdotzip]

I think it good that Tip.It perhaps enlist some new moderators, global mods, and admins for their website, focused mostly on RuneScape game related things, and less on forum upkeep and backend stuff.

 

I'm sick of all the hand holding that goes on because someone gets told to shut up or because someone loses their bank from gambling or whatever. Sick of MOST staff seemingly not knowing shit about the game and dashing down people who, albeit sarcastic and sometimes fiesty, know their stuff.

 

I used to be very active on this forum until some odd months back when most Tip.It staff showed true face with their power-abusing tendencies, especially during the altercations with the Meta-Community (XP Waste members, specifically). Since that point I have used this forum far less frequently as a result of a lot of Staff running the forums ass-backwards, providing no actual help regarding RuneScape and more than anything acting like a Parent On-duty or something comparable to that. Most of them can't take criticism and are quick to silence users they consider problems, even if those users have legitimate concerns or complaints.

 

I would love to see some players who have proven their worth on the game that are filled with helpful game info running forums applicable to that, and keep the mommy and daddy type warnings at bay. Unless much has changed since like, last may or so, this is a huge issue I have with a lot of staff. Now there are some exceptions, they're not all terrible, I am not an authority hater, but holy shit, there are some ignorant staff members. I feel like we may as well have Mods from World of Warcraft forums overseeing these forums.

[Sy_Accursed]

I fail to see any logic behind this. Admittedly of late 1 or two moderators seem a bit on edge/borderline rude (eg fuelling or starting flaming/off topicness) but they do a fine job overall and at the end of the day they are human; they are allowed to have periods of time when they are a bit stressy or wound up.

 

Plus there is no need for moderators or admins to know the ins and outs of the game, their duty is not to be some deity of knowledge, it is to keep forum rules enforced and deal with the technological backend & adminstrative backend duties of the forum and website. It is the crewbies job to research game stuff.

[tripsis]

Honestly, this has proven to be almost impossible. We would love to get more active RuneScape players on staff. We have tried recruiting quite a few but they have either rejected the offer outright or have proven to be more passionate about RuneScape than Tip.It, resulting in inactivity and generally not top notch moderator work. It's hard to find someone who is both active and knowledgeable in-game and is still qualified to be a moderator.

 

While I do understand the desire for more variety, and all of us would like to get more active RuneScape players on the team, I honestly don't think we're at a huge disadvantage right now as you are implying. For starters, being a moderator/admin on Tip.It is about enforcing our own rules and management. It isn't about playing RuneScape and who has the best stats. And secondly, we do have quite a few people who still actively play RuneScape:

 

• Siobhana
  
• tripsis
  
• Kimberly
  
• Quyneax
  
• Ellac
  
• Leik
  
• Randox
  
• Ezkaton
  
• Lord_Paul

I may have even left some out. That's 8/21. Not quite half, but considering that I may have missed a few and some of our moderators are 100% dedicated to Off-Topic, I don't think that's a horrible number.

 

It is very important to consider that just because someone actively plays RuneScape does not mean they would be an active or good/quality moderator. All it means is that they may end up posting more in RuneScape-related forums, which would help you get to know the team better, which is a good thing and something that I value, but once again it doesn't mean they're qualified to actually be a moderator.

 

Furthermore, I know we have had some issues in the past, but especially in recent months, I haven't seen many of the issues you brought up:

 

Most of them can't take criticism and are quick to silence users they consider problems, even if those users have legitimate concerns or complaints. [...] and keep the mommy and daddy type warnings at bay. [...] there are some ignorant staff members.

 

If you have some recent examples I would really love to see them. To avoid pointing fingers and bashing people, you are welcome to PM me any examples. I'm not even really sure what you mean by "mommy and daddy type warnings." Warnings are necessary. They're a way of 1) informing a user that they have broken the rules, 2) explaining why we have this rule and why it's important, 3) helping the user to understand the rule, 4) helping them avoid violating it again, 5) and informing them of the consequences should they violate it again. It's not meant to be punishment, but a form of education. Yes we have rules, you may not like them, but you do have to follow them. Warnings are meant to be a non-punishing way of letting the user know that they have violated them so they can be more careful in the future.

[Logdotzip]

I don't see why a player can't focus primarily on helping with RuneScape stuff, and knowing its ins and outs, with moderation as a secondary perk they have and occasionally enforce, instead of always the other way around.

 

I would love to see some staff members that play RuneScape more than they browse forums, but have the ability to take action if need be, on forums.

 

Like I said I don't browse on Tip.It like I used to because of said actions back when, so I can't say that Staff handles criticism the way I used to see all the time. I suppose the simple fact that this wasn't removed without notice or that I wasn't sent a threatening message from staff about it already DOES mean it's shaped up a bit.

 

And by handholding, I mean people's posts getting removed when they discuss things "not in the spirit", but also not against the rules, be it gambling, luring, etc. I can go to general discussion and handpick examples of posts discussing such things, but the moment I post about it under help and advice, with a clear connection to the topic at hand, it is removed extremely quickly. There have been many cases like this with other users as well.

 

If you're going to allow words like shit, etc. On the forums, I would love to see staff continue on that trend and stop babying the forum members who can't bear the thought of discussing slightly touchy subjects, or at least be consistent with their allowance on specific boards.

[Logdotzip]

I don't even care if their powers are severely limited by comparison to real staff members, I think Tip.It desperately needs a member group who knows their stuff about RuneScape, can differentiate between sarcasm and trolling and idiocy, and will enforce things of that nature when applicable.

[tripsis]

But the whole point of the moderator role is enforcing the rules and managing the community. If we had moderators who just helped assist with game knowledge, they wouldn't be moderators. We have very knowledgeable crew members and regular users for helping out in the community with RuneScape knowledge. If our moderators did it, the only benefit would be that they happen to have a green coloured name.. and I don't particularly see how that's a benefit.

 

You're concerned about having moderators who aren't knowledgeable about the game.. but if we have "inactive" but RuneScape-knowledgeable moderators, they would be ignorant about actually moderating. They wouldn't know our rules well enough and generally wouldn't be good moderators. The best moderators we have are those who are engaged in the community and extremely active moderators who are up to date and involved in all our private rule discussions. Having people moderating who aren't even active enough to bother being involved in those discussions would NOT end well.

 

And by handholding, I mean people's posts getting removed when they discuss things "not in the spirit", but also not against the rules, be it gambling, luring, etc. I can go to general discussion and handpick examples of posts discussing such things, but the moment I post about it under help and advice, with a clear connection to the topic at hand, it is removed extremely quickly. There have been many cases like this with other users as well.

 

This is a criticism about our actual forum rules rather than moderators (which is fine, but they're two different things). Encouraging and "advertising" gambling/trust trading are very, very clearly against the rules. I'm not saying that will never change, but if your post gets removed for that the moderator is just doing his/her job. There's nothing wrong with the actual moderator. Instead, challenge the actual rule rather than the moderator who's doing their job just fine. Right now our rule is that general discussion about the topics is fine. You can talk about them existing and seeing them happening and Jagex's stance, but you cannot encourage the action or advertise it (i.e. "Hey try gambling out!" or "Join my dicing clan!").

[Logdotzip]

Maybe I'm not seeing something here, and that's entirely possible, but I don't understand how difficult it would be to teach a few well-versed RuneScape veterans when to delete a post or move a topic, or when not to do something. If your guidelines for moderation are changed so much that a Moderator who wasn't on 24/7 was out of the loop, then that, in my opinion, is something else that needs addressing.

 

There ought to be clear cut and obvious rules which any player would know how to enforce, given the trust and power of the privilege to enforce it. I just happen to think the ones who (hopefully one day) are given such privilege are ones who know when to stop an argument, and when to see that it might just be someone crying that he got "mistreated" (read: Trolled) by someone else, and can handle it a little more quickly and quietly than other staff members do. Obviously I feel most who are active in the metagame subforum would be very good candidates for such a group, and if I recall correctly, this was something Das discussed last year when he still held some control over Tipit (Specific Board moderators that specialize in RS). I think it would make for a great addition...

 

A group of moderators primarily dedicated to forum moderation

AND

A group of moderators dedicated to educating forum users about the game, and can step in when needed to solve small disputes quickly.

[tripsis]

The problem is that you're talking about an ideal situation. Believe me, we would LOVE to have more active moderators who are already knowledgeable about the game. We do have a pretty extensive training process to ensure that new moderators know what they're doing and that they'll make good decisions/judgements on the public boards. But in the past we've still seen problems like these moderators just ignoring the rule-breaking posts around them, not participating in moderator discussions AT ALL, not performing the correct moderator action, etc. And I think it's a good thing that we have high standards for our moderators.. otherwise you'd probably be complaining about a lot more ;)

 

I'm just saying it's very, very hard to find moderators who fit what you're looking for. They don't have to be online 24/7 but they do have to be fairly active and read up on moderator discussions when they occur. That's not hard to do but we have had moderators who just don't pay attention to them at all and as a result, they're not updated on our recent rule changes or moderator policies. That's the kind of thing that would result in unfair warnings and heavy criticisms of the moderator team (rightfully so).

 

Our absolute ideal moderators are people who:

 

• Are active on the forums as regular users, and as such, they are able to moderate and solve problems when they come across them (before they are reported even);
  
• Handle reports as well;
  
• Serve as leaders/role models for the community;
  
• Follow the rules and don't have a history of rule-breaking;
  
• AND participate in moderator policy/rule discussions.

Then you can add RuneScape knowledge as a bonus.

 

I guess part of me is wondering why you're not currently satisfied. Yes we can always improve and get more great moderators, but I think we already have a great bunch. Just to name a few:

 

• @Quyneax is absolutely invaluable in Help & Advice. She's one of the go-to so sources for combat training suggestions. Even I read up on her advice. Just read through her post history to see what I mean. She also regularly participates in General Discussion and BlogScape.
  
• @Leik is huge in BlogScape. He's a big member of that community and by engaging in peoples' blogs, he's very easy to get to know and become friends with.
  
• @Randox posts all over - in RuneScape boards and Off-Topic boards. Furthermore, she's a member of our Monster Hunting Team, which makes her a great person to hang out with and get to know in-game. She moderates the forums and is very community/game-oriented.
  
• has been very, very helpful in Help & Advice, which is one of the reasons we noticed him as a potential moderator. He regularly offers great advice and participates in topics in General Discussion.

These are just a few examples. I don't think we're quite as lacking as you're implying. Again, we're always happy to have more, but how many until you think we have enough knowledgeable moderators?

 

I would also like to say that if something breaks the rules that requires game knowledge to fully understand, we always ask that our RuneScape knowledgeable moderators take care of it. Or at least the moderator taking action discusses it with a game knowledgeable moderator first to understand the situation.

[Sy_Accursed]

But WHY do moderators need some indepth rs knowledge at all?

 

The community at large deals with any help or advice needs or debates with its vast collective knowledge. What difference does moderator status make to this ability? Especially seeing as the duties of moderating and game knowledge have no overlap to them at all in terms interaction.

[obfuscator]

I don't see what the point is to having "a group of moderators to educate people about the game" - if moderation isn't their primary role then why call them moderators? If anything, you're asking for some kind of "runescape expert" staff group...which is an interesting thought in itself; but not as a moderator.

 

EDIT: @Sy: it helps in the rs boards to determine what is trolling and what isn't. Also, there are rules in H&A about giving incorrect advice. When I was a moderator, most of the time I stayed out of GEN and H&A from a mod perspective, since I didn't really know the game much. Obviously if someone posts "bronze dagger is better than Godsword lololol" I know they're trolling; but if it's something a little less obvious, having more in-depth rs knowledge helps. And I do think we have that - we do have (as tripsis pointed out) a handful of good moderators who know the game quite well.

 

Also, not everyone is suitable to be a moderator. You can't just give power to anyone and expect them to thrive with it, and do well with it.

[Sy_Accursed]

I don't see what the point is to having "a group of moderators to educate people about the game" - if moderation isn't their primary role then why call them moderators? If anything, you're asking for some kind of "runescape expert" staff group...which is an interesting thought in itself; but not as a moderator.

 

EDIT: @Sy: it helps in the rs boards to determine what is trolling and what isn't. Also, there are rules in H&A about giving incorrect advice. When I was a moderator, most of the time I stayed out of GEN and H&A from a mod perspective, since I didn't really know the game much. Obviously if someone posts "bronze dagger is better than Godsword lololol" I know they're trolling; but if it's something a little less obvious, having more in-depth rs knowledge helps. And I do think we have that - we do have (as tripsis pointed out) a handful of good moderators who know the game quite well.

 

That much is true, but you still don't need mega in-depth rs knowledge to deal with that kind of thing and there's always the ability to pass notification of a possible issue on to someone more qualified to judge it, plus if it was indeed trolling/wrong odds are a report would come through or other users would flag it up as such. Besides having such 'experts' just sounds to me like a road to an officially moderated version of a few months back where certain metagamers flamed the crap out of any advice that was not the absolute 100% metagame perfect route to take. Well perhaps that's a little bit of an extreme extrapolation, but it seems to kinda vibe aimed at, which just seems unnecessary to me.

[obfuscator]

I don't see what the point is to having "a group of moderators to educate people about the game" - if moderation isn't their primary role then why call them moderators? If anything, you're asking for some kind of "runescape expert" staff group...which is an interesting thought in itself; but not as a moderator.

 

EDIT: @Sy: it helps in the rs boards to determine what is trolling and what isn't. Also, there are rules in H&A about giving incorrect advice. When I was a moderator, most of the time I stayed out of GEN and H&A from a mod perspective, since I didn't really know the game much. Obviously if someone posts "bronze dagger is better than Godsword lololol" I know they're trolling; but if it's something a little less obvious, having more in-depth rs knowledge helps. And I do think we have that - we do have (as tripsis pointed out) a handful of good moderators who know the game quite well.

 

That much is true, but you still don't need mega in-depth rs knowledge to deal with that kind of thing and there's always the ability to pass notification of a possible issue on to someone more qualified to judge it, plus if it was indeed trolling/wrong odds are a report would come through or other users would flag it up as such. Besides having such 'experts' just sounds to me like a road to an officially moderated version of a few months back where certain metagamers flamed the crap out of any advice that was not the absolute 100% metagame perfect route to take. Well perhaps that's a little bit of an extreme extrapolation, but it seems to kinda vibe aimed at, which just seems unnecessary to me.

 

We've also had all kinds of false reports about trolling from people who want the moderators to take action on someone because they don't like them. Having moderators with a lot of RS knowledge helps with sorting through what complaints are valid and what aren't. Once again - I believe we have these moderators.

[Kimberly]

But WHY do moderators need some indepth rs knowledge at all?

 

It might not seem like it, but it is important. I'm not talking about super in-depth end-game knowledge and experience. But knowing the direction the community is in, knowing the basics of the game we're playing, aware of current events in RS, and so on. Anything beyond that is a gigantic plus, but is largely dependant on the individual's play-style. Siobhana does laid-back cost effective training and knows a lot about that. Leik's a Completionist. Ezkaton, Leik, Ellac, and a few others are brilliant with Dungeoneering and have their ear to the ground for new developments there. Etc etc. I know that if I go in the 200M in all skills thread and I see someone calling another person an idiot, that's clear-cut and any trained moderator will see that. There are some things though that memorizing the rules won't teach you, though.

 

One example: we had a rule for years and years that prohibited users from posting about things obtained via the RS Cache. In most cases, they weren't explaining how to do it or advertising the programs they used. Just simple screenshots that people loved and discussed. And who wouldn't get excited over seeing a new character model for a slayer master? It's tiny things like that which really intrigue the average 'Scaper. Thanks to the pushing of some RuneScape active moderators (in-game and on the forums) the staff decided to finally re-evaluate this dinosaur guideline, check with Jagex to make sure it's not against the rules and forced them to take a public stance. Now they're allowed to be posted. It wouldn't have been possible if those people weren't aware of the community's needs and desires and were simply trained letter-of-the-laws who never really cared about RuneScape.

 

In a less idealistic turn on things, most of the violations we see in a day-to-day basis require some level of current game knowledge to deal with appropriately. 'Dealing with things appropriately' isn't just determining what has to be removed and what doesn't. Like you pointed out correctly, assuming all reports were correct (sadly they aren't) the community can point things like these out faster than a moderator could spot them on their own! But the process is so much more than that. It's not supposed to be simply a naughty-corner experience. It's supposed to be a learning experience. The ideal hope is that after contacting anyone, that the same thing doesn't have to be dealt with again. Simply slapping them with a generic warning copied and pasted from a text pad isn't sufficient. You have to be able to identify what was wrong, explain why it was wrong, and advise them on how they can avoid it for the future. If it's RS related, you can't do that if you don't have at least some basic understanding on how the game works. And to do anything less is a failure on our part as moderators.

 

And as several others before me explained in waaay better detail than I ever could, not everyone is able to be a moderator. To help achieve a higher level of consistency and service--because users are 'king' here--they have to be suitable for the role. Otherwise, it's a very dangerous practice to rely upon users to solely point out to us why things are bad, or where the bad things are.

[n_odie]

Its interesting to note that most reports are handled in an active mod chat or via the forum. If it is something very game related... the experience and thoughts of a active player are really valued.

 

There are times some mods mess up, but that's just part of being human and/or different backgrounds.

 

When I was part of the process of finding a moderator... I noticed that players who play the game... want to play the game.... being a mod takes a crap ton of time and one is usually forced to decide: Tip.it or Runescape.

 

Future mods also have thier posting habits looked at... if the forums need a RuneScape mod... staff will look at their posts in RS... where an Offtopic Mod would have his/her posts reviewed from OT.

 

 

 

But yes.... it would be amazing to have mods who have time to be super active both in RS and Tip.it.

[Hedgehog]

I know of plenty of people who are active on tif and runescape.

[Acre]

being a mod is probably even more work they're saying they can't find a lot of people who can be active on tif and runescape and be good mods

obviously there are tons of people who are active on tif and runescape.

[Kaida23]

I know of plenty of people who are active on tif and runescape.

There are, but try and envision being that active in the moderator discussions on top of that. I know there are some weeks where my EP duties take up a lot of extra time, and that's just dealing with one or two specific discussions. I can only imagine how much extra time being an active moderator must take on a daily basis.

 

Personally, I think the mods/admins/staff do a pretty darn good job of riding herd on these forums (I've been on game forums where mod activity was nothing short of draconian). I've seen plenty of discussions, and arguments, go for some time without interference unless necessary. As already pointed out, we have several mods who are active in RuneScape without needing to try and recruit more simply because of in-game knowledge.

 

That said, I do agree with obfuscator that the idea of a "RuneScape Expert" staff group would be an interesting idea if people with the right combination of knowledge and willingness to help could found.

[obfuscator]

I wasn't thinking so much as a staff group, but maybe a title or badge for those who have proven over time to have given a lot of excellent, constructive advice.

[tripsis]

I'm not sure how this supposed group would differ that much from the website crew. The group may not be called "Knowledgeable RuneScape Players" or whatever but people are generally (main exception being coders) recruited into the website crew because they're knowledgeable about the game. I would trust them to give good advice.

 

I guess the one difference would be that more people could join this knowledge/advice group since there would be no activity/behaviour requirements. But it still seems a little redundant to me next to the website crew.

 

Slightly more on-topic.. you'll be pleased to know that we have greatly loosened our rules regarding encouraging/admitting to gambling/trust trading/dicing/etc. In short, the only rule we now have against it is no advertising gambling clans/groups or loan "companies."