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Intoxication and Consent - morality, legality, and other shenanigans


Omar

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There is plenty of literature on the topic, if you're interested.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to respond to his point.

Perhaps I'm just being baited by the 'emotionally-charged' nature of the topic, but all he really said was "It's going to happen and there's nothing anyone can do about

it except make sure it doesn't happen to them".

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Precisely. I understand that answer is not appealing as I used to be an idealist myself but its the only true answer.

But it doesn't really add anything new to the topic. You could even argue that it's rejecting the topic entirely (which, admittedly, is a hell of a lot better than the sidestepping we usually see in these arguments, but still).

 

There's nothing to address. That's the point I was trying to make.

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well okay then

 

Given that no matter how many arrests/convictions governments give to rapists it will never go away, and any individual who values autonomy over their body must do what it takes to not get raped. With that in mind most rapes happen because the vcitim was not vigilant enough to prevent it. Not that the victim deserves it but if they remained vigilant it would not have happened. Sure this isn't absolutely the case, as plenty of rape victims were coerced at a young age by adults with authority over them or outright violently forced to comply with no way of preventing that outcome.

 

so what constitutes "remaining vigilant", and where are some statistics to show that "remaining vigilant" would prevent a majority of rapes because that sounds like bullshit.

 

i also disagree that that's the only thing that can be down. at the orientation day for first year students at my uni, women were given a talk kinda thing on you know, not to drink too much, stick with friends, etc, when you go to parties. the men didn't get any kind of talks on not taking advantage of drunk people, making sure you definitely have consent, generally not to be a shitbag.

 

saying there's literally nothing else that can be done is ridiculous. there's a whole bunch of stuff that can be done to improve society's views on rape as a whole.

 

@giordano - literally google "effects of rape" it's not difficult

 

@obfuscator - the analogy is rubbish because a rape and a scam aren't comparable. the former is initiated entirely by one party, the other isn't. not to mention the insensitivity of comparing a traumatic event to useless videogame pixels.

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sleep like dead men

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@obfuscator - the analogy is rubbish because a rape and a scam aren't comparable. the former is initiated entirely by one party, the other isn't. not to mention the insensitivity of comparing a traumatic event to useless videogame pixels.

 

I see a lot of similarities between a rape and a scam. Rapes are just as likely to be "initiated by one person" as a scam is. They both involve someone being taken advantage of, and they can both be learned from (as can anything).

 

If no one ever said anything insensitive, one might as well just not say anything at all. Just because you're offended by something doesn't preclude it from being true or otherwise relevant.

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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I don't think anyone here is suggesting that women (who are far more likely to be victims of rape than men) shouldn't be educated about how to remain vigilant, simply because we feel that 100% of the responsibility for that crime lies with the perpetrator. Around 90% of female rape victims are attacked by men they knew before the attack, so while I am genuinely saddened to hear about your ex-girlfriend, it sadly doesn't surprise me that it occurred in that way.

 

Can we agree on one point, though: Your ex-girlfriend wasn't to blame for that, at all. The man who raped her was, and only he was. If we're to view this issue progressively, we have to avoid using statements like "being drunk makes women partially responsible", because while most people use that statement innocuously (and I personally believe, incorrectly), it acts as a mitigating factor, or even an excuse, for rapists' behaviour, when it isn't one.

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Can we agree on one point, though: Your ex-girlfriend wasn't to blame for that, at all. The man who raped her was, and only he was. If we're to view this issue progressively, we have to avoid using statements like "being drunk makes women partially responsible", because while most people use that statement innocuously (and I personally believe, incorrectly), it acts as a mitigating factor, or even an excuse, for rapists' behaviour, when it isn't one.

 

Reread my post here. Either you're somehow still misunderstanding me (or vice versa), or this again boils down to semantics, or we'll just have to agree to disagree. As Ring said, the lesson to be learned in cases like that is to be cautious and remain vigilant. But that lesson can't be learned/implemented without accepting at least some responsibility, even if doing so may seem politically incorrect or insensitive.

 

The way to be "progressive" about this is to encourage others to make smarter decisions. Failing to do so just because "that's mean" is a step in the wrong direction.

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Haven't we been telling women for thousands of years to make "sensible decisions"? Heck, it's only recently that women have had the full emancipation to engage in activities which may involve alcohol at all. And yet, throughout history, you see plenty of cases of rape. Which suggests that maybe alcohol isn't really the deciding factor in sexual assaults against women.

 

I'm not particularly interested in semantics, or definitions about certain words. It's pretty obvious what we're both saying; let's just stick to the matter at hand.

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Evil and suffering will exist as long as people behave emotionally instead of rationally. In other words, for the rest of humanity's existence. These are things that you can't do a whole lot to prevent without curtailing peoples' freedoms in the process.

 

This is where you say, "...but we can't just do NOTHING!" And I say, "that's exactly what we do." (From a legal standpoint, that is)

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Can we agree on one point, though: Your ex-girlfriend wasn't to blame for that, at all. The man who raped her was, and only he was. If we're to view this issue progressively, we have to avoid using statements like "being drunk makes women partially responsible", because while most people use that statement innocuously (and I personally believe, incorrectly), it acts as a mitigating factor, or even an excuse, for rapists' behaviour, when it isn't one.

I disagree. Responsibility and blame are not the same thing. Trying to dodge the discussion on responsibility (which is the touchy subject) under the guise of better focusing blame doesn't do anyone any favors.

 

Recognizing that evil exists and telling others they have a responsibility to guard against it does not blame them when bad things happen to them.

 

Try an example - I tell you to be responsible and turn off your electronics when you leave the room. One day you don't turn off your electronics when you leave, a short circuit occurs while you're gone and the house catches fire. Was it your responsibility to turn off your electronics? Yes. Did leaving your electronics on contribute to the house catching fire? Yes. Are you to blame for the house catching fire? No, that could have occurred even if you were there and did everything right. Instead you blame the shitty electronics, you had no way to know it might catch fire.

 

A girl goes to a party. She's told to be responsible and watch her drink at all times. Say she sets her drink down, looks away and gets drugged. Is she to blame for that? Absolutely not. Was that her responsibility? In my opinion, yes.

 

Hope you can see the difference in my examples.

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99 dungeoneering achieved, thanks to everyone that celebrated with me!

 

♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thought
Have some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪

♪♪ And I'm not done
And I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪

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I'm not particularly interested in semantics, or definitions about certain words. It's pretty obvious what we're both saying; let's just stick to the matter at hand.

You can solve a lot of problems by clearing up what you mean. Muggi and obfuscator have been using the word "responsible" in one sense, and you and I have used it in another. They were more concerned about what an individual can do to protect themselves; you and AML take a more collective approach in preventing attempts at rape from occurring to begin with. You're saying you shouldn't rape people; we're saying that's true, but you also shouldn't get wasted. At first blush, that seems like blaming the victim, but it isn't, and the reason is that "should" does not mean the same thing in both case--one is a matter of rights, and the other is a matter of self-interest. And while you're right that people do blame the victim in many cases--just look at the Steubenville rape--this is an entirely different issue. There, people claim that the victim is in the wrong for losing consciousness; here, we're claiming she made an unwise decision and everything would work out better if we let people know that this is frequent and avoidable. I think if you replace the word "responsible" with "instrumental" in sees' post, (or muggi's, or obfuscator's), you can pretty much end this discussion with people actually agreeing without changing the substance of anyone's position.

 

@Racheya: Do you feel offended that I say you shouldn't go out in the street holding wads of cash because it implies that mankind is a bunch of thieves? No, you don't, and that's because some people are thieves and some people aren't. Similarly, I don't think I'm a rapist, I just think some men are.

Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can

Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude?

Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you?

Camera guy: still laughing

Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy

Camera guy: runs away still laughing

Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down

Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]!

Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL!

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I'm going to refrain from continuing my previous post and focus on the immediate discussion.

 

I believe the original thread was for cases of drunk women not having conscious of what they're doing. I believe if a woman does not want to be taken advantage of, however she'll like to define it, don't loose your self-control in uncertain situtations (e.g. Don't get drunk in a large club with lots of strangers, Do get drunk with well-trusted friends).

 

And that is about as far as I go in giving some responsibly on the woman. Walking to your car in a dark parking lot is not her fault: she has no power to control the time of day nor any power to install lighting. Wearing a fancy dress, no matter how "slutty", is used to attract romantic response from males, not to attract rape. You do have the power to choose to get drunk and I believe, once intoxicated voluntarily you should have no say in the legal process.

"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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Gww had a really good video on "dressing slutty" which addressed your post, I'll try to find it once I get home..

 

EDIT: as promised:

 

 

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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The problem is when people are so drunk they can't remember whether or not they consented, and in the morning they don't think they would have done. The issue isn't that your judgement is clouded whilst drunk - when you got drunk you accepted that you weren't going to be thinking straight. The only issue is whether or not both parties consented.

 

Think of this situation: a particularly malicious girl gets drunk and sleeps with a guy she wants revenge on (for whatever reason). The next day she claims that she didn't consent to it. Social bias in these situations leads to most people immediately believing the guy actually raped her. There's obviously evidence that the two of them had sex, but it's just the guy's word against the girl's when it comes to whether it was consensual or not. Does anyone more knowledgeable than me know what would happen legally in a situation like this? Even if the guy is found to be innocent, many people will still believe he raped her as that's just the way our society works.

 

Turning the situation on it's head, what if the guy actually raped her, and claimed it was consensual 'rough' sex. If it was just the guy's word against the girl's, how would a court decide?

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In theory if it's literally just word against word i think the courts should always err on the side of not guilty...in any circumstance.

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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Yep, legally it's most likely nothing will happen, as in most rape cases, alcohol or not. In spite (or maybe because) of this, even a false accusation can have lasting effects on the accused.

Matt: You want that eh? You want everything good for you. You want everything that's--falls off garbage can

Camera guy: Whoa, haha, are you okay dude?

Matt: You want anything funny that happens, don't you?

Camera guy: still laughing

Matt: You want the funny shit that happens here and there, you think it comes out of your [bleep]ing [wagon] pushes garbage can down, don't you? You think it's funny? It comes out of here! running towards Camera guy

Camera guy: runs away still laughing

Matt: You think the funny comes out of your mother[bleep]ing creativity? Comes out of Satan, mother[bleep]er! nn--ngh! pushes Camera guy down

Camera guy: Hoooholy [bleep]!

Matt: FUNNY ISN'T REAL! FUNNY ISN'T REAL!

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