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Open carry and gun law discussion


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#41
Nyosuht
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Seriously, how many times have you seen anyone use gun in self-defense? Do you know anyone who has used a gun in self-defence?

Without going into too much detail, that's a plural non-zero number, and it's more than I can count on one hand if you include the defense of others. I haven't had to shoot anyone, although I have complied with attackers in order to avoid escalating to that point.

I've also had people approach me shouting across a parking lot to ask whether I had a quarter or a lighter, then turning around and muttering when they realize that the thing hanging from my belt is a holstered pistol. I can't tell you that they would have otherwise, but I can tell you that they did me no harm.

My social circle includes police, military veterans, and security guards, as well as some people who have done less-than-legal things to make a buck. So yes, I do know people who have used guns in self-defense. I also know people who have had their houses and cars turned into swiss cheese by the minions of what passes around here for a drug lord while their toddlers were trying to sleep. I certainly can't fault them for shooting back.
 

Carrying a gun for self-defence only makes sense in upper-Northern Canada and Svalbard and Greenland, where they do have polar bears roaming aroung who actually can attack and kill you.

Carrying a gun for self-defense makes sense anywhere you might need to defend yourself, particularly against superior numbers or stronger attackers. Basically, anywhere. If you don't need it, which is most of the time, it sits on your belt and isn't an issue. If you are unfortunate enough to be in a position where it might be useful, well, at least it's an option.

 

I think I can count on the fingers of one hand for how many times the cops in the whole country have had to use a gun for the whole last year for anything other than a warning/attention shot in the air.

Warning shots are stupid, and anyone who uses them is stupid. If you want to make a big noise, use the bullhorn. If it's dangerous enough to pull a gun, don't take it off the threat and send a bullet arcing through the sky just to make some noise.

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#42
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Yeah I don't get open carrying for self defense. I would think if anything you become a higher target if you open carry.

"This guy has a gun. Maybe he would defend himself if I were to try threatening him. I could get hurt over the $100 in the drawer. Fsck this, I'll go hit some other place."

What you're describing simply doesn't happen. Or if it does, I can't seem to find any reference. There's a deterrent effect, which I touched above and has been documented. I've been openly carrying for years, and the only people who have targeted me for it are police officers who think it's okay to harass/intimidate people they disagree with politically. I carry for self-defense, but I carry openly so that people who might not otherwise can see that a holstered pistol isn't a harbinger of violence.
 

If you were robbing someone, wouldn't you want to eliminate the highest threat first? Open carrying just seems like a way to show everyone in the room that you have a small penis.

I guess my wife has a small penis then?

Do you actually have a point, or are you just expressing a fixation on penises?
 

Conceal and carry is fine with me, it's far superior to unequipping everyone of guns. I'll never conceal and carry or own a gun because I like to believe all people have a semblance of good.

I'll just be over here, in the real world, where it's unlikely (but possible) that I'll need to defend myself.

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#43
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Philly cop was just assaulted with a police issued pistol at near point blank range and thankfully only 3 of 13 bullets hit and they all hit his arm before he could drop he is assailant with a swift 3 shot kill.

I wonder how he got the police-issued pistol.
I wonder whether the assailant was properly licensed to carry.
I wonder whether the assailant would have (or did) observed laws prohibiting him from carrying the police-issued pistol.
 

This is why open carry and concealed carry are both unreasonable in the city. Cause bodies would just drop on the reg. Shits not like that in bumble [bleep] country ville

Let me make sure I've got this straight: the general populace should be disarmed, because they might have to defend themselves against an attacker who has a gun that was probably stolen from the police?

The reality is that (assuming you're in philly) you are in a holdout jurisdiction, and that none of the other places that have relaxed restrictions on carrying firearms have seen what you describe, even though opposition to relaxed restrictions nearly universally made the same claim you do. They were wrong, and so are you.

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#44
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You don't need a gun while going around outside.

I find my life dearer to me than my wallet and I believe people subconsciously do not want to kill another human being. No matter what. So if I behave properly in a situation of danger I can resolve it without lethal force.

I can't fathom justifying open carry for everyone when it just makes the people who don't want anything to do with guns to be a higher target.
Are you saying everyone should get a gun for self-defence? I wish guns had never been even invented.
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#45
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You don't need a gun while going around outside.

Generally, but there are certainly times I've been glad to have one.
 

I find my life dearer to me than my wallet and I believe people subconsciously do not want to kill another human being. No matter what. So if I behave properly in a situation of danger I can resolve it without lethal force.

It doesn't matter what you find dearer, because you're not the one in control when it really comes down to it.
A person who threatens your life to demand your wallet isn't threatening your wallet; they're threatening your life.


I believe that these people might disagree with your line of thinking:
http://www.cbsnews.c...ern-california/
http://www.stltoday....0b203ff961.html
http://www.kmov.com/...he-had-no-money
http://www.stltoday....99beff6cbd.html
http://wtvr.com/2014...2-50-to-robber/

How did these victims behave improperly? What might you have done differently in a similar situation?

 

I can't fathom justifying open carry for everyone when it just makes the people who don't want anything to do with guns to be a higher target.

Who says anything about forcing anyone to carry? Within the US, concealed carry is permitted (at least in theory) in every state. The "open carry debate" has more to do with whether a person who carries a gun should be forced to hide it than whether they should have it, and is not remotely about allowing everyone to carry a gun, never mind forcing anyone.
 

Are you saying everyone should get a gun for self-defence?

I'm saying that anyone who cares for self-defense should not be denied the means to it. You have no interest in defending yourself, so what use is a tool for that purpose?

As far as being a "higher target," I'd be interested to see any data whatsoever to support that. It's a claim I've heard, but I've yet to see a shred of evidence in support of it. Police universally open carry, why aren't they being targeted first when they happen to be at a 7/11 when someone tries to rob it? Why do I hear more about cops stopping crime or catching criminals than I do about them being taken out for posing a threat to criminals?
 

I wish guns had never been even invented.

I wish that we could just magically conjure everything we might need or want in life and spend time doing what we truly love instead of having a need to work for money to buy those needs. It's a nice fantasy, probably largely because it's a fantasy.

Guns are tools that have been around hundreds of years, and I'm having some difficulty imagining what the world might look like without them. Even modern guns aren't particularly complex devices, so the genie isn't going back in the bottle.

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In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837


#46
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My second post about the Philly incident was more for hyperbole than discussion, so I'll focus my response to this;

 

Not even for my safety, I've just been so sheltered from it that if I see a gun it's basically all I focus on. Not ideal in a school or workplace honestly. But that's why they're allowed to ban open carry.

Gay people make me uncomfortable, especially when they're open about it and I can see displays of affection. It's basically all I focus on. It's not that I think they're going to give me gonoherpasyphilaids, or somehow turn me gay, I've just been so sheltered from it that I can't function as a human being carrying out my responsibilities at work or school. It's really not ideal, which is why they're allowed to ban gay marriage.

 

 

This sounds like in the environment you grew up in, a foreign "noun" came up in existence and you didn't totally agree with it. For you, its open homosexuality. And while I never thought in a million years I'd have to compare homosexuality to gun law, I'm about to do just that. You carry on with your day with a gun at your waist, and the slightest homophobia in your head and you seem content in this lifestyle choice. I, on the other hand due to my "sheltering" of not being around military folk, but instead LGBT activists have lead me to a lifestyle quite the reciprocal. I am open about how I don't mind seeing two guys make out, and it doesn't jar me in the least. Just to bring this closer to our given parallels, I worked a few lesbian weddings. Seeing two women kiss while I was working gathered some interest from my co workers, but only because its not a commmon sight. It didn't bother me any, and I honestly didn't really think twice of it. Now, if at that same wedding there was a casual fella with a gun strapped around his belt I'd be hard pressed to stare at him - a direct distraction from my work.

 

I'm totally comfortable with homosexuality, but open carry makes me uneasy. This comes from what I'm familiar with. You have the opposite, where carrying a gun is second nature, but seeing "open carry" homosexuality makes you uneasy. So why am I wrong in my belief, but yours is the true answer for us all? 



 

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#47
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The thing is, the US is already thus far in the gun ownership that you can't really do anything about it.

It's just that I don't want us Europeans to take an example of you and start filling our streets with guns.
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#48
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My second post about the Philly incident was more for hyperbole than discussion, so I'll focus my response to this;

Not even for my safety, I've just been so sheltered from it that if I see a gun it's basically all I focus on. Not ideal in a school or workplace honestly. But that's why they're allowed to ban open carry.

Gay people make me uncomfortable, especially when they're open about it and I can see displays of affection. It's basically all I focus on. It's not that I think they're going to give me gonoherpasyphilaids, or somehow turn me gay, I've just been so sheltered from it that I can't function as a human being carrying out my responsibilities at work or school. It's really not ideal, which is why they're allowed to ban gay marriage.

 
This sounds like in the environment you grew up in, a foreign "noun" came up in existence and you didn't totally agree with it. For you, its open homosexuality. And while I never thought in a million years I'd have to compare homosexuality to gun law, I'm about to do just that. You carry on with your day with a gun at your waist, and the slightest homophobia in your head and you seem content in this lifestyle choice. I, on the other hand due to my "sheltering" of not being around military folk, but instead LGBT activists have lead me to a lifestyle quite the reciprocal. I am open about how I don't mind seeing two guys make out, and it doesn't jar me in the least. Just to bring this closer to our given parallels, I worked a few lesbian weddings. Seeing two women kiss while I was working gathered some interest from my co workers, but only because its not a commmon sight. It didn't bother me any, and I honestly didn't really think twice of it. Now, if at that same wedding there was a casual fella with a gun strapped around his belt I'd be hard pressed to stare at him - a direct distraction from my work.
 
I'm totally comfortable with homosexuality, but open carry makes me uneasy. This comes from what I'm familiar with. You have the opposite, where carrying a gun is second nature, but seeing "open carry" homosexuality makes you uneasy. So why am I wrong in my belief, but yours is the true answer for us all?

It's not, and that's exactly my point. What I wrote there was a reframing of what you had expressed previously; all the logic in a different context. The idea was to show how ridiculous it is to think that your discomfort at the unfamiliar is "why they're allowed to ban open carry."

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There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837


#49
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The thing is, the US is already thus far in the gun ownership that you can't really do anything about it.

It's just that I don't want us Europeans to take an example of you and start filling our streets with guns.


Given that one of the EU's primary agenda items is disarmament I don't think you need to worry.

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#50
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I always thought it'd be funny if humans never figured out how to create tools as weapons, yet still retained their capacity for violence. Instead of mass shootings, you'd have like this one super-strong disgruntled guy that just beats the shit out of dozens of people all by himself :lol:

 

idk what that says about me


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#51
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I always thought it'd be funny if humans never figured out how to create tools as weapons, yet still retained their capacity for violence. Instead of mass shootings, you'd have like this one super-strong disgruntled guy that just beats the shit out of dozens of people all by himself :lol:
 
idk what that says about me


don't let the government take our fists!

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#52
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I don't have a stance really though nyosuht, that was my point if I didn't make that clear. I know I'm not into guns but I wouldn't try to take the guns away from anyone that wants/has one

 

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#53
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I suppose if the question is limited to just open carry, then my only objection to open carry from any standpoint that concerns me is that it's going to be easier to disarm someone who has their gun in plain sight if they are so inclined (for immediate use or run of the mill theft). I'm not sure how much of a concern that actually is, but that's what came to mind.

 

I suppose another concern, though I think this is already a thing, is that if criminals see that a lot of people are armed, that means they need to be armed too, and the level of violence, when it happens, has therefore escalated. I'm not sure that qualifies as a concern though, since it's common knowledge any American can be armed, and guns are so easy to acquire in the states that there is no reason for a criminal not to be armed anyway.

 

If I were actually living in the States, or planning on it, then yeah, I'd have a huge personal issue with it. People just aren't armed in Canada, especially not with handguns. Even criminal elements are often armed with rifles, not pistols, because it's just not easy to get your hands on a handgun here. Where I grew up, if you are armed in public and you aren't a cop, it means you are in the process of, or about to start, shooting at people, so an armed civilian is to me an implicit threat: Cross me and die. For an analogy, imagine if the law was instead about the right to bring your dog(s) to work with you. Now, I would be totally fine with that. I was raised around dogs, and I had friends who also had dogs that would have attacked if you threatened their family. Anyway, I'd be fine with that, but I imagine people who didn't grow up with dogs, and don't know how to interact with them without being bitten, they would be really nervous.



#54
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People just aren't armed in Canada, especially not with handguns.


Rough estimates are that 10% of the Canadian population owns Firearms. That's not an insignificant number.

Even criminal elements are often armed with rifles, not pistols, because it's just not easy to get your hands on a handgun here.


Not true. The vast majority of gun crime is committed with restricted or prohibited Firearms, mostly handguns.

Where I grew up, if you are armed in public and you aren't a cop, it means you are in the process of, or about to start, shooting at people, so an armed civilian is to me an implicit threat: Cross me and die.


Well, yes, because it's illegal. The Canadian public has had the opportunity to prove otherwise taken away from them.

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#55
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I don't have a stance really though nyosuht, that was my point if I didn't make that clear. I know I'm not into guns but I wouldn't try to take the guns away from anyone that wants/has one

Yeah, I didn't think we were discussing confiscation or barring new purchases. You definitely seemed to have a stance against carrying in cities, while violent crime stats seem to indicate that I'm more likely to want to carry in cities.

 

I suppose if the question is limited to just open carry, then my only objection to open carry from any standpoint that concerns me is that it's going to be easier to disarm someone who has their gun in plain sight if they are so inclined (for immediate use or run of the mill theft). I'm not sure how much of a concern that actually is, but that's what came to mind.

So, here's a holster I use to carry concealed:

Notice how there's only a clip to hold it to my belt, and only the tight fit of the leather to hold the gun in the holster? Ideally, nobody would know it was there, but there's not much in place to keep someone from taking it in the event that my shirt rides up or the gun prints through the shirt.

Here's my open carry holster:


That gun isn't going anywhere unless it's down in the holster when the button behind the shield is pressed toward my body. If the gun is pulled up even slightly, the strap catches on the gun and doesn't disengage. If the button isn't pushed, or isn't pushed in the right direction, the strap doesn't disengage. If the strap is disengaged, but the gun isn't pulled straight out, it usually binds in the holster and doesn't come out. You can see where the belt threads through the plastic in the second picture... much more secure than the other holster. If your cops carry openly, they probably use similar gear.

That's not to say that everybody uses appropriate equipment, but most people I know do, and most of the organizations supporting open carry push proper equipment and training.

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#56
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So, here's a holster I use to carry concealed:


Ew, leather. I would never use one after seeing this picture: (although yours does look like much higher quality).

leather-holster-ad-nd-2.jpg

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#57
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I suppose another concern, though I think this is already a thing, is that if criminals see that a lot of people are armed, that means they need to be armed too, and the level of violence, when it happens, has therefore escalated. I'm not sure that qualifies as a concern though, since it's common knowledge any American can be armed, and guns are so easy to acquire in the states that there is no reason for a criminal not to be armed anyway.

We have enhanced penalties for crimes committed with weapons, which I guess are supposed to discourage the use of weapons in the furtherance of crime. I couldn't say off-hand whether they are effective.
 

If I were actually living in the States, or planning on it, then yeah, I'd have a huge personal issue with it. People just aren't armed in Canada, especially not with handguns.
Even criminal elements are often armed with rifles, not pistols, because it's just not easy to get your hands on a handgun here.

Pretty much any rifle is going to cause more damage than most pistols. Rifles tend to have larger, heavier bullets, more powder pushing the bullet, and longer barrels allowing more acceleration of the bullet. The main appeal of handguns is that they can be concealed and are more convenient to carry. Of course, it's not terribly difficult to cut down a rifle or shotgun to a more concealable size. Knock down the barrel and hack off the stock, and you basically have a rifle-caliber handgun or a shotgun pistol.
 

Where I grew up, if you are armed in public and you aren't a cop, it means you are in the process of, or about to start, shooting at people, so an armed civilian is to me an implicit threat: Cross me and die.

Because it's not generally legal for people to show you that they are armed, the only people you can see are armed are the people who are already operating beyond the legal bounds.
It's almost as though only criminals carry guns when carrying a gun is criminalized.
 

For an analogy, imagine if the law was instead about the right to bring your dog(s) to work with you. Now, I would be totally fine with that. I was raised around dogs, and I had friends who also had dogs that would have attacked if you threatened their family. Anyway, I'd be fine with that, but I imagine people who didn't grow up with dogs, and don't know how to interact with them without being bitten, they would be really nervous.

A few important disctinctions, I think:
Dogs have minds of their own, whereas guns are under the control of those who possess them. I can't make sure that my dog isn't going to bite someone, even though I think it's unlikely; I can be sure that my gun isn't going to pull itself out of my holster and start shooting people.
You touched on that when you mentioned that some people "don't know how to interact with [dogs] without being bitten." If someone else is carrying a gun, there's no special way to act around it to not get shot. Unless you want to count not attacking the person carrying it, I guess.
As dogs do have minds of their own, they require attention. If my dog comes to work with me, he's going to want me to play with him, he will need food and water, he will need to go outside and do his business. If my gun goes to work with me, it sits on my belt and nobody knows or cares; it doesn't interfere with my work in any way.


 

Ew, leather. I would never use one after seeing this picture: (although yours does look like much higher quality).

I don't know about higher quality, Galco has a pretty good reputation and lots of happy customers. A better design, certainly. That holster leaves the front end of the gun completely uncovered, which provides an opportunity for the front sight to catch on the holster while drawing.

It also doesn't cover as far back on the gun as I think it should. I get that the pistol maybe isn't fully inserted there, but look at these photos that come up when searching for that holster model:

The trigger guard isn't completely covered on either gun, and the trigger is almost completely exposed on the second. It doesn't look like the holster is formed to the gun in any of the pictures, so I'm having some trouble imagining there's much friction retention. Even if the leather wasn't initially soft enough to fold like your picture shows, it's probably not a great choice.
That said, equipment does wear out and should be checked periodically.

I do have a left-handed (in the waistband) kydex holster for the smaller gun that I use when I carry it on my left side, and I don't really have any complaints about it or the leather one shown earlier.

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In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837


#58
jasignhagj
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jasignhagj

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Nyoshut, you ever read More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott? It'd pretty much just be confirming your biases at this point but for me it removed any skepticism I had about legalized carry.



#59
Lower Levelled
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Nyoshut, you ever read More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott? It'd pretty much just be confirming your biases at this point but for me it removed any skepticism I had about legalized carry.


He doesn't seem biased

#60
jasignhagj
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jasignhagj

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Nyoshut, you ever read More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott? It'd pretty much just be confirming your biases at this point but for me it removed any skepticism I had about legalized carry.


He doesn't seem biased

 

 

 

There's a difference between having biases towards a political belief and being biased. I just mean the book wouldn't challenge his point of view, but likely reinforce it.






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