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Open carry and gun law discussion

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ITT: People who know nothing about guns making uninformed irrational statements about them.

Which is something every single one of us (including you) has been guilty of in one thread or another, so what makes guns so sacred? :-D

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ITT: People who know nothing about guns making uninformed irrational statements about them.

Which is something every single one of us (including you) has been guilty of in one thread or another, so what makes guns so sacred? :-D

Nothing. I've pointed out the same in other threads as well. Actually, the majority of people in this thread are being fairly reasonable, it's only a small percentage I was referring to.


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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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Considering we have only like 10 people ITT the percentage can't be small :D

 

And I don't count reddit as a correct source if my question was do YOU know anyone who has had to use a gun in self-defence.

The USA is pretty much the size of the whole Europe. The margins are so big that there is bound to happen something.

What I meant is, most of us live in neighbourhoods where owning a gun is absolutely not necessary. Does not need to be used. And the less guns are around, the better for all of us.

 

I know that there are like maybe 10 psychos with guns roaming around in my country. But here's a million people who are not psychos with guns. But here is like, maybe 10 thousand psychos. But I am not afraid of those psychos. Because those psychos can't get guns from the local [bleep]ing Wal-Mart. Thanks to mandatory psychological evaluation in the country. And, because we don't have Wal-Marts here :D

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So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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Something something CAPITALISM yadda yadda


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Philly cop was just assaulted with a police issued pistol at near point blank range and thankfully only 3 of 13 bullets hit and they all hit his arm before he could drop he is assailant with a swift 3 shot kill. This is why open carry and concealed carry are both unreasonable in the city. Cause bodies would just drop on the reg. Shits not like that in bumble [bleep] country ville


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Rpg I don't understand what that has to do with open or concealed carry. It just sounds like a criminal shooting at a cop, which would happen whether or not guns were legal to carry.

 

Saq, the one Wal Mart I've seen carrying guns sold rifles as sporting/hunting equipment, next to the fishing poles. It's not like they're running a deal where if you buy a pack of chicken you get a Glock 17 free. Also you talk a lot about making guns harder to access for psychos, but I've yet to see any suggestions for making that happen without making it also inconvenient to people who aren't going to do harm with them.

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Rpg I don't understand what that has to do with open or concealed carry. It just sounds like a criminal shooting at a cop, which would happen whether or not guns were legal to carry.

 

Saq, the one Wal Mart I've seen carrying guns sold rifles as sporting/hunting equipment, next to the fishing poles. It's not like they're running a deal where if you buy a pack of chicken you get a Glock 17 free. Also you talk a lot about making guns harder to access for psychos, but I've yet to see any suggestions for making that happen without making it also inconvenient to people who aren't going to do harm with them.

Every walmart around where I'm from sells guns

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Rpg I don't understand what that has to do with open or concealed carry. It just sounds like a criminal shooting at a cop, which would happen whether or not guns were legal to carry.

 

Saq, the one Wal Mart I've seen carrying guns sold rifles as sporting/hunting equipment, next to the fishing poles. It's not like they're running a deal where if you buy a pack of chicken you get a Glock 17 free. Also you talk a lot about making guns harder to access for psychos, but I've yet to see any suggestions for making that happen without making it also inconvenient to people who aren't going to do harm with them.

 

We make cars hard to access for psychos and inconvenience legitimate drivers. Driving is a much more important skill in life than shooting yet it is much less accessible. But, and here is the big but, cars are the most lethal weapon most of us have access to and more people are killed by cars each year than guns so the regulation makes a lot of sense.

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Rpg I don't understand what that has to do with open or concealed carry. It just sounds like a criminal shooting at a cop, which would happen whether or not guns were legal to carry.

 

Saq, the one Wal Mart I've seen carrying guns sold rifles as sporting/hunting equipment, next to the fishing poles. It's not like they're running a deal where if you buy a pack of chicken you get a Glock 17 free. Also you talk a lot about making guns harder to access for psychos, but I've yet to see any suggestions for making that happen without making it also inconvenient to people who aren't going to do harm with them.

We make cars hard to access for psychos and inconvenience legitimate drivers. Driving is a much more important skill in life than shooting yet it is much less accessible. But, and here is the big but, cars are the most lethal weapon most of us have access to and more people are killed by cars each year than guns so the regulation makes a lot of sense.

The only thing you have to do to get a drivers license is prove that you're capable of driving a car without incident. Then if you do something stupid they suspend or revoke your license.

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It's way too easy to get a drivers' license back in the states aswell. We have 40 hours of mandatory theoretical classes before you can even start test driving with an instructor. And there is the bare minimum of 20 hours of driving lessons here before you can even apply for exams to get the drivers' license here.

 

And yeah, I agree with making small inconveniences to people wanting to get [bleep]ing guns. If you really do want to defend yourself you are better off getting a basic self-defence melee course.


t3aGt.png

 

So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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This is why open carry and concealed carry are both unreasonable in the city. Cause bodies would just drop on the reg.

Once again, this is simply not true. There are many cities where carrying happens frequently and in many cases they have lower crime rates than cities that have bans on carrying.


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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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Crime rates are not dependent on whether the open carry is permitted or not. Crime comes from inequality and poverty.

Or, in some cases, cultural background.

 

If people have it good, why would they ever need to turn to crime?


t3aGt.png

 

So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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Crime rates are not dependent on whether the open carry is permitted or not. Crime comes from inequality and poverty.

Or, in some cases, cultural background.

I know they aren't. That was his point, not mine.


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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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I don't want a gun but I'm not gonna be the guy to threaten to take the guy's gun that owns one.

Good on you, even if it does seem that you're implying that anyone who owns a gun might be dangerous to you.

 

Being around guns makes me uncomfortable.

That says more about you than it does about guns in general or open carry in particular.

 

Something that's designed specifically to end human life has no place in my hands. Or near me. It makes me unfocused.

Are you of the belief that it is never appropriate to end human life? That it's morally superior to be a victim whose attacker got away (and maybe eventually caught, tried, and even convicted) than to be a would-be victim who stopped a threat? Are you incapable of finding yourself in a situation where lethal force might be appropriate, or even necessary to your continued survival?

 

Bullets don't care what they're launched at. Human, dog, cardboard silhouettes, injured deer after a deer-car crash, it's all the same to the bullet. The gun doesn't seem to care either.

 

Not even for my safety, I've just been so sheltered from it that if I see a gun it's basically all I focus on. Not ideal in a school or workplace honestly. But that's why they're allowed to ban open carry.

Gay people make me uncomfortable, especially when they're open about it and I can see displays of affection. It's basically all I focus on. It's not that I think they're going to give me gonoherpasyphilaids, or somehow turn me gay, I've just been so sheltered from it that I can't function as a human being carrying out my responsibilities at work or school. It's really not ideal, which is why they're allowed to ban gay marriage.

 

So I'll close with this; country side can do what it wants with gun laws but that shit won't go well in the city

Most states allow open carry, more than a few without a license. Over the course of the past five years or so, I've carried openly in Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, Indianapolis, and lots of smaller places in between. The only problem I've had is with cops who don't know the law, or who know the law and either don't care or don't expect me to. I live in a smaller city of about 30k people, and am regularly thanked by random people on the street and in stores for carrying.

 

There was some dissent when my state relaxed restrictions on concealed carry; it sounded a lot like you, and it was demonstrably wrong.


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In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837

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Seriously, how many times have you seen anyone use gun in self-defense? Do you know anyone who has used a gun in self-defence?

Without going into too much detail, that's a plural non-zero number, and it's more than I can count on one hand if you include the defense of others. I haven't had to shoot anyone, although I have complied with attackers in order to avoid escalating to that point.

 

I've also had people approach me shouting across a parking lot to ask whether I had a quarter or a lighter, then turning around and muttering when they realize that the thing hanging from my belt is a holstered pistol. I can't tell you that they would have otherwise, but I can tell you that they did me no harm.

 

My social circle includes police, military veterans, and security guards, as well as some people who have done less-than-legal things to make a buck. So yes, I do know people who have used guns in self-defense. I also know people who have had their houses and cars turned into swiss cheese by the minions of what passes around here for a drug lord while their toddlers were trying to sleep. I certainly can't fault them for shooting back.

 

Carrying a gun for self-defence only makes sense in upper-Northern Canada and Svalbard and Greenland, where they do have polar bears roaming aroung who actually can attack and kill you.

Carrying a gun for self-defense makes sense anywhere you might need to defend yourself, particularly against superior numbers or stronger attackers. Basically, anywhere. If you don't need it, which is most of the time, it sits on your belt and isn't an issue. If you are unfortunate enough to be in a position where it might be useful, well, at least it's an option.

 

 

I think I can count on the fingers of one hand for how many times the cops in the whole country have had to use a gun for the whole last year for anything other than a warning/attention shot in the air.

Warning shots are stupid, and anyone who uses them is stupid. If you want to make a big noise, use the bullhorn. If it's dangerous enough to pull a gun, don't take it off the threat and send a bullet arcing through the sky just to make some noise.

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In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837

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Yeah I don't get open carrying for self defense. I would think if anything you become a higher target if you open carry.

"This guy has a gun. Maybe he would defend himself if I were to try threatening him. I could get hurt over the $100 in the drawer. Fsck this, I'll go hit some other place."

 

What you're describing simply doesn't happen. Or if it does, I can't seem to find any reference. There's a deterrent effect, which I touched above and has been documented. I've been openly carrying for years, and the only people who have targeted me for it are police officers who think it's okay to harass/intimidate people they disagree with politically. I carry for self-defense, but I carry openly so that people who might not otherwise can see that a holstered pistol isn't a harbinger of violence.

 

If you were robbing someone, wouldn't you want to eliminate the highest threat first? Open carrying just seems like a way to show everyone in the room that you have a small penis.

I guess my wife has a small penis then?

 

Do you actually have a point, or are you just expressing a fixation on penises?

 

Conceal and carry is fine with me, it's far superior to unequipping everyone of guns. I'll never conceal and carry or own a gun because I like to believe all people have a semblance of good.

I'll just be over here, in the real world, where it's unlikely (but possible) that I'll need to defend myself.

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In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837

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Philly cop was just assaulted with a police issued pistol at near point blank range and thankfully only 3 of 13 bullets hit and they all hit his arm before he could drop he is assailant with a swift 3 shot kill.

I wonder how he got the police-issued pistol.

I wonder whether the assailant was properly licensed to carry.

I wonder whether the assailant would have (or did) observed laws prohibiting him from carrying the police-issued pistol.

 

This is why open carry and concealed carry are both unreasonable in the city. Cause bodies would just drop on the reg. Shits not like that in bumble [bleep] country ville

Let me make sure I've got this straight: the general populace should be disarmed, because they might have to defend themselves against an attacker who has a gun that was probably stolen from the police?

 

The reality is that (assuming you're in philly) you are in a holdout jurisdiction, and that none of the other places that have relaxed restrictions on carrying firearms have seen what you describe, even though opposition to relaxed restrictions nearly universally made the same claim you do. They were wrong, and so are you.


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In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837

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You don't need a gun while going around outside.

 

I find my life dearer to me than my wallet and I believe people subconsciously do not want to kill another human being. No matter what. So if I behave properly in a situation of danger I can resolve it without lethal force.

 

I can't fathom justifying open carry for everyone when it just makes the people who don't want anything to do with guns to be a higher target.

Are you saying everyone should get a gun for self-defence? I wish guns had never been even invented.


t3aGt.png

 

So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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You don't need a gun while going around outside.

Generally, but there are certainly times I've been glad to have one.

 

I find my life dearer to me than my wallet and I believe people subconsciously do not want to kill another human being. No matter what. So if I behave properly in a situation of danger I can resolve it without lethal force.

It doesn't matter what you find dearer, because you're not the one in control when it really comes down to it.

A person who threatens your life to demand your wallet isn't threatening your wallet; they're threatening your life.

 

 

I believe that these people might disagree with your line of thinking:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/robber-kills-hiker-in-remote-northern-california/

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/st-louis-robbery-victim-hands-over-cash-is-shot-anyway/article_8d865a60-f691-5bf1-b668-920b203ff961.html

http://www.kmov.com/story/30966796/man-48-shot-after-telling-would-be-armed-robber-he-had-no-money

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/mayor-police-pledge-more-officers-near-busch-stadium-after-shooting/article_300320e5-a575-537d-8a5b-c899beff6cbd.html

http://wtvr.com/2014/11/03/richmond-man-shot-nearly-killed-after-handing-over-2-50-to-robber/

 

How did these victims behave improperly? What might you have done differently in a similar situation?

 

 

I can't fathom justifying open carry for everyone when it just makes the people who don't want anything to do with guns to be a higher target.

Who says anything about forcing anyone to carry? Within the US, concealed carry is permitted (at least in theory) in every state. The "open carry debate" has more to do with whether a person who carries a gun should be forced to hide it than whether they should have it, and is not remotely about allowing everyone to carry a gun, never mind forcing anyone.

 

Are you saying everyone should get a gun for self-defence?

I'm saying that anyone who cares for self-defense should not be denied the means to it. You have no interest in defending yourself, so what use is a tool for that purpose?

 

As far as being a "higher target," I'd be interested to see any data whatsoever to support that. It's a claim I've heard, but I've yet to see a shred of evidence in support of it. Police universally open carry, why aren't they being targeted first when they happen to be at a 7/11 when someone tries to rob it? Why do I hear more about cops stopping crime or catching criminals than I do about them being taken out for posing a threat to criminals?

 

I wish guns had never been even invented.

I wish that we could just magically conjure everything we might need or want in life and spend time doing what we truly love instead of having a need to work for money to buy those needs. It's a nice fantasy, probably largely because it's a fantasy.

 

Guns are tools that have been around hundreds of years, and I'm having some difficulty imagining what the world might look like without them. Even modern guns aren't particularly complex devices, so the genie isn't going back in the bottle.


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In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837

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My second post about the Philly incident was more for hyperbole than discussion, so I'll focus my response to this;

 

Not even for my safety, I've just been so sheltered from it that if I see a gun it's basically all I focus on. Not ideal in a school or workplace honestly. But that's why they're allowed to ban open carry.

Gay people make me uncomfortable, especially when they're open about it and I can see displays of affection. It's basically all I focus on. It's not that I think they're going to give me gonoherpasyphilaids, or somehow turn me gay, I've just been so sheltered from it that I can't function as a human being carrying out my responsibilities at work or school. It's really not ideal, which is why they're allowed to ban gay marriage.

 

 

This sounds like in the environment you grew up in, a foreign "noun" came up in existence and you didn't totally agree with it. For you, its open homosexuality. And while I never thought in a million years I'd have to compare homosexuality to gun law, I'm about to do just that. You carry on with your day with a gun at your waist, and the slightest homophobia in your head and you seem content in this lifestyle choice. I, on the other hand due to my "sheltering" of not being around military folk, but instead LGBT activists have lead me to a lifestyle quite the reciprocal. I am open about how I don't mind seeing two guys make out, and it doesn't jar me in the least. Just to bring this closer to our given parallels, I worked a few lesbian weddings. Seeing two women kiss while I was working gathered some interest from my co workers, but only because its not a commmon sight. It didn't bother me any, and I honestly didn't really think twice of it. Now, if at that same wedding there was a casual fella with a gun strapped around his belt I'd be hard pressed to stare at him - a direct distraction from my work.

 

I'm totally comfortable with homosexuality, but open carry makes me uneasy. This comes from what I'm familiar with. You have the opposite, where carrying a gun is second nature, but seeing "open carry" homosexuality makes you uneasy. So why am I wrong in my belief, but yours is the true answer for us all? 


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Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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The thing is, the US is already thus far in the gun ownership that you can't really do anything about it.

 

It's just that I don't want us Europeans to take an example of you and start filling our streets with guns.


t3aGt.png

 

So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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My second post about the Philly incident was more for hyperbole than discussion, so I'll focus my response to this;

 

Not even for my safety, I've just been so sheltered from it that if I see a gun it's basically all I focus on. Not ideal in a school or workplace honestly. But that's why they're allowed to ban open carry.

Gay people make me uncomfortable, especially when they're open about it and I can see displays of affection. It's basically all I focus on. It's not that I think they're going to give me gonoherpasyphilaids, or somehow turn me gay, I've just been so sheltered from it that I can't function as a human being carrying out my responsibilities at work or school. It's really not ideal, which is why they're allowed to ban gay marriage.

 

 

This sounds like in the environment you grew up in, a foreign "noun" came up in existence and you didn't totally agree with it. For you, its open homosexuality. And while I never thought in a million years I'd have to compare homosexuality to gun law, I'm about to do just that. You carry on with your day with a gun at your waist, and the slightest homophobia in your head and you seem content in this lifestyle choice. I, on the other hand due to my "sheltering" of not being around military folk, but instead LGBT activists have lead me to a lifestyle quite the reciprocal. I am open about how I don't mind seeing two guys make out, and it doesn't jar me in the least. Just to bring this closer to our given parallels, I worked a few lesbian weddings. Seeing two women kiss while I was working gathered some interest from my co workers, but only because its not a commmon sight. It didn't bother me any, and I honestly didn't really think twice of it. Now, if at that same wedding there was a casual fella with a gun strapped around his belt I'd be hard pressed to stare at him - a direct distraction from my work.

 

I'm totally comfortable with homosexuality, but open carry makes me uneasy. This comes from what I'm familiar with. You have the opposite, where carrying a gun is second nature, but seeing "open carry" homosexuality makes you uneasy. So why am I wrong in my belief, but yours is the true answer for us all?

 

It's not, and that's exactly my point. What I wrote there was a reframing of what you had expressed previously; all the logic in a different context. The idea was to show how ridiculous it is to think that your discomfort at the unfamiliar is "why they're allowed to ban open carry."

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In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. ~Samuel Adams; 1 August, 1776
There are men, in all ages, who mean to exercise power usefully; but who mean to exercise it. They mean to govern well; but they mean to govern. They promise to be kind masters; but they mean to be masters. ~Daniel Webster; 15 March, 1837

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The thing is, the US is already thus far in the gun ownership that you can't really do anything about it.

 

It's just that I don't want us Europeans to take an example of you and start filling our streets with guns.

Given that one of the EU's primary agenda items is disarmament I don't think you need to worry.

  • Like 1

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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I always thought it'd be funny if humans never figured out how to create tools as weapons, yet still retained their capacity for violence. Instead of mass shootings, you'd have like this one super-strong disgruntled guy that just beats the shit out of dozens of people all by himself :lol:

 

idk what that says about me


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