Issue in Iraq - Updated Again!

[Kryptic]

I dont know how much knowledge anyone on the forums has about the civil war going on in Iraq as we speak, but I really would like to express what I think is going on.

 

 

 

I am arab, born in Kuwait, with Palestine running through my blood. I was in Kuwait when Saddam was attacking (AKA Gulf War II). I was a little boy at the time, but I remember how society is in the Middle East.

 

 

 

The Middle East is basically where everything started, specifically religion. The three big religions populating the area are Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

 

 

 

For many years, these cultures clashed against one another, but some how found the grounds for peace, and have successfully stayed at peace. Currently in Iraq, these cultures (Includes more than Islam, Christianity, and Judaism... but those are more well known) are fighting one another.

 

 

 

But, they didnt use too.... up untill America came, and gave Saddam the boot from the presidential position.

 

 

 

Now, you all can sit here in your warm Third World countries, and say "Saddam is a tyrant!" Not saying this isn't true, but I think he had to be rough on his country.

 

 

 

Saddam understood that if he didnt keep a firm hand on everyone, the whole country would go crazy, and start attacking one another, such as whats happening now. Iraq is full of people that are ignorant to other religions, and see other religions and cultures as a threat to their religions well-being. So, they react the only way the know how too - fight. Saddam grew up knowing that everyone follows this philosophy, and knew that not only did he have to be strict, but he had to kill a few people to prove that he is the man in power.

 

 

 

How would you manage a country which was populated with cultures that wanted to kill one another? Its a difficult position to be put in, and I cant imagine how Saddam managed the situation.

 

 

 

All, for the most part, was fine. Saddam was in power, he had NO NUKES, and he maintained order and safety among his people.

 

 

 

But, Bush convinced everyone in America that he needs to go stop Saddam, cause he has Nukes.... long story short - Bush steals Iraqi oil, Saddam goes through International Court and its tried accordingly.

 

 

 

This is when everything gets messy. Without Saddam maintaining order and safety (through violence and fear), there is no one maintaining order and safety anymore! There are no police officers, no government, no court system, no nothing!

 

 

 

Now, extremists who see there is no power over the state, see it as their chance to take over. But what one extremist group didnt know was that the other extremist group, who happen to be their rivals, also want to take over. So now you get a whole bunch of extremist groups trying to take over.

 

 

 

So its like this..

 

 

 

I am home in Iraq today with my family. The door gets knocked down, and the extremists who belong to the X culture come in with guns drawn. They tell me I must join them, or I will be killed along with my familly.

 

 

 

But I belong to culture Y! So I refuse, demanding my rights as a citizen of Iraq. My family and I are then killed.

 

 

 

My brother, Moh'd gets notice that I have been killed by culture X. So he decides to get revenge, and joins a culture Y extremist group, and goes to someone elses house who belongs to culture X, and demands them to join their group.

 

 

 

So its like an on going chain. No matter what you do, this is whats going to happen if you dont be strict with them. Without Saddam, Iraq is going to be in a Civil War for a long time.

 

 

 

From CNN's website, I found that 50 people if not more are being killed due to Civil War a day. A DAY! And this has been going on ever since Saddam has been in custody.

 

 

 

Give or take, a year ago Saddam was captured... so in 1 year there are 365 days. 365 days x 50 people = 18250 deaths. Now understand that 50 people a day isn't accurate... because there is no database counting every single person dying. A lot of people are unaccounted for.

 

 

 

I am, in no way, justifying the measures Saddam took to maintain his country. But I do think that if he didn't, all hell would break loose.

 

 

 

Dont just Flame me.. Be good at it.

 

 

 

 

 

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Updated March 22, 2006

 

 

 

Iraq

 

 

 

I have nothing to do but laugh. There are a lot of opinionated people in this forum, and I didnt expect anyone to agree with me at first. But I did think someone would get atleast understand what I was saying. Surely no one didnt. Lol, so I laugh, and I will rephrase everything that was originally posted, and will post my views on Bush. Even though this thread wasn't initially made for that, I feel its important.

 

 

 

Just to get something clear.... Iraq, when being ruled by Saddam wasn't all that bad. The average person, who kept their "eyes open, mouth shut" (in other words, keeping your opinion to yourself) was living a very stable, safe life. "You would go to work, come home to the family, and expect the same thing everyday." - Abdul Hazim, my friend who lived in Iraq during Saddam's ruling.

 

 

 

My friend Abdul isn't the only one saying Saddam's ruling wasn't all that bad either. The Iraqis want Saddam back! I know that sounds drastic, but its true.

 

 

 

Ive been privilaged with a satalite feed from the Middle East, which has daily updates on the Iraqi issue. And from what Algezira, and ART News stations are reporting, the Iraqi people are living 100 times worse than the life they did in Saddams ruling.

 

 

 

Atleast you knew if you were going to be alive when you left the house in the morning, now you dont. The extremists have set bombs everywhere, its not safe to leave your home. You cant go outside and help but think the worst is going to happen.

 

 

 

Is Saddams ruling nearly as bad? No its not! And most of you think that it would be, but the same as I am being "Spoon fed with Anti-Bush videos" you are being Spoon fed with Anti-Saddam News! You guys only know part of the stories you see, you dont see the regular life Iraqis lived when Saddam was in rule, you only saw the images and videos of when he was slaughtering his people. The regular life was stable - economically, socially, politically, and for the most part, the people were safe. They didn't have fears of leaving their homes, expecting the next car their arm brushes by will blow up.

 

 

 

Saddam was a bad man. Im not saying he was a saint or anything, Im not stupid, I hate him as much as the next guy. He killed innocent lives for no reason at all, and there is no justicification in that.

 

 

 

But when I am trying to say is that Bush messed up, even though I didn't really say it. Bush thought he was doing the Iraqi people a favour when he took Saddam out of power, and so did I. I thought it was great that Saddam now didnt have the capability to kill another person.

 

 

 

But, when Saddam was taken out of power, another problem - 100 times worse was set to happen. Extremists going rabid in Iraq, I dont care how bad this sounds, is way worse than what Saddam has ever did.

 

 

 

Saddam actrually kept his people safe from this problem, believe it or not.

 

 

 

And I do sympathize for the lives lost under Saddams rule, I really do. I am Arab myself, I would understand this the same, if not better than anyone who posts in this thread.

 

 

 

But what Saddam did is over, its in the past. I shed a tear for all the lives lost, but I am trying to focus on the Iraq problem of today! We could sit here and argue about Saddam and what he did, but I initially started this thread to pick up awareness that Saddams ruling is not nearly as bad as the Iraq today.

 

 

 

From what I understand, and from what I get from my Arabic News fee, is that Iraq is in a lot more hell than it was when Saddam was president.

 

 

 

Dont just Flame me... Be GOOD at it. (I mean it)

 

 

 

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Sorry I didnt update when I said I would, but something came up.

 

 

 

Anywayz..

 

 

 

My View on Bush..

 

 

 

As I said before, Bush is a Texan Goof-ball, and I stand by that. Im not going to take it back, or apologize for it.

 

 

 

The reason I choose to dislike Bush is because of what he does. Believe it or not, Bush doesn't care about you Americans! He doesn't... Look what happened in New Orleans. The whole area was completly whipped out, and it took Bush around 1 week to act on the issue. BUT, it took Bush 5 days, and billions and billions of dollars to go to Afganistan to fight terrorism.

 

 

 

Why did it take Bush soo long to help out his own country? Isn't it the presidents obligation to help his/her people?

 

 

 

Bush insists on helping other countries such as Iraq, before he even helping his own country? Now that is scretchy.. Bush is in Iraq for oil, I dont care what anyone says.. You can say "My father is CIA, blah blah blah..." I dont care... Bush is in Iraq for oil. All Canadians know it, all Americans are in denial, because "Bush loves us!" - sure he does... :roll:

 

 

 

Ok, Bush has his troops in Iraq right? Bush should know better than anyone that there is a Civil War in Iraq - but he doesn't, infact he denies that there is a Civil War! Why would he do that? For oil? Nahh - "My father is CIA and Bush loves us!"

 

 

 

Why would Bush deny the Iraqi Civil War, when you, every American and Canadian, and myself know there is rabid Extremists killing everyone in sight?! It's because Bush wants oil - he doesnt want too much attention drawn towards Iraq, to hide his oil lines that he made.

 

 

 

Blaaaaah, you guys kill me... Lol

 

 

 

FLAME ME - but be good at it :lol:

 

 

 

Updated March 22/06 @ 7:50pm

[Biabf]

He was guilty of murder, torture, using chemicals in warfare and may many other crimes... He gased your lannds and people... Killing and threatening people is not a good way to maintain a country, it is certainly not the way to do it, he could of used good ways like Blair or Bush... He was a dictator and I feel he should just be death sentanced after all he has killed hundreds maybe thousands of people, in America they like kill you after one or something like that!

[Bubsa]

Uh, pal, Britain and America aren't Third World countries. That would be places like Ethiopia etc.

 

 

 

To be honest, if you really think those 3 religions managed to live together peacefully...where have you been? Do you ignore Israel or something?

[jackalope14]

 

From what I know there have always been religious clashes in the Middle East and it didnt just start because of the war in Iraq. The fighting in Iraq now is not between Judiasm, Christianity and Islam, its between two different groups of Islam

[Kryptic]

To be honest, if you really think those 3 religions managed to live together peacefully...where have you been? Do you ignore Israel or something?

 

 

 

I am Palestinian. I know of this issue a great deal... Thats a whole different story, under different circumstances thus it is a whole different thread, thank you.

 

 

 

From what I know there have always been religious clashes in the Middle East and it didnt just start because of the war in Iraq. The fighting in Iraq now is not between Judiasm, Christianity and Islam, its between two different groups of Islam

 

 

 

There are more relgions involved, though they may not be mentioned by the media.

[Guest GhostRanger]

To be honest, if you really think those 3 religions managed to live together peacefully...where have you been? Do you ignore Israel or something?

 

 

 

I am Palestinian. I know of this issue a great deal... Thats a whole different story, under different circumstances thus it is a whole different thread, thank you.

 

 

 

No, its not a different issue. You claim that these religions got along under Saddam's rule and that's inaccurate. There wasn't a Jewish population in Iraq. There wasn't a Christian population in Iraq. The civil war in Iraq has nothing to do with those three religions. Its all Muslims in Iraq.

 

 

 

You also said that you believe Saddam had to be hard on his people. I can't even consider anything you say to be a rational thought after that. Having rooms where women are forced into sexual acts against their will is "being hard on his people?" Mass murder is "being hard on his people?"

 

 

 

[Kryptic]

To be honest, if you really think those 3 religions managed to live together peacefully...where have you been? Do you ignore Israel or something?

 

 

 

I am Palestinian. I know of this issue a great deal... Thats a whole different story, under different circumstances thus it is a whole different thread, thank you.

 

 

 

No, its not a different issue. You claim that these religions got along under Saddam's rule and that's inaccurate.

 

 

 

You also said that you believe Saddam had to be hard on his people. I can't even consider anything you say to be a rational thought after that. Having rooms where women are forced into sexual acts against their will is "being hard on his people?" Mass murder is "being hard on his people?"

 

 

 

I Think a different issue because Israel was "legally" given to the Jews. While the Palestinians had no where to go.. Completely different because the Jews are kicking around the Palestinians. In Iraq extremist want power over the state. If there was someone in power, such as Saddam, then there wouldnt be any problems. But yet again Bush needed his oil...

 

 

 

And there is Christians and Jews in Iraq. I know this because I have Iraqi friends who are Christian, and they tell me there are Jews who live in Iraq.

 

 

 

If you were the president of a country which consisted of tons of groups that wanted nothing more but to kill the other groups... what would you do?

 

Saddam clearly chose violence, I didnt say it was right. I see it as wrong... All Im saying is that without him, look at what is happening.

[Evilperson]

The bottom line is Bush is right for the wrong reasons and Saddam is wrong for the right reasons.

 

 

 

Expansion of statement: I think it is commen knowledge that Bush wants oil from the middle east. The tactic he used was WMDs or Weapons of mass destruction. We found none. Did the public notice? Apparently not. But in America gas prices have gone up because Iran refuses to sell to us now. President Bush really shot himself in the foot. And you can't say that "the American people" bull, because the presidential rating as well as the war in iraq rating have dropped to about 20%.

 

 

 

And also i would like to remind people that mass killings are happening all over the place where war lords are in control. I guess we should go police the wolrd some more?

[Guest GhostRanger]

To be honest, if you really think those 3 religions managed to live together peacefully...where have you been? Do you ignore Israel or something?

 

 

 

I am Palestinian. I know of this issue a great deal... Thats a whole different story, under different circumstances thus it is a whole different thread, thank you.

 

 

 

No, its not a different issue. You claim that these religions got along under Saddam's rule and that's inaccurate.

 

 

 

You also said that you believe Saddam had to be hard on his people. I can't even consider anything you say to be a rational thought after that. Having rooms where women are forced into sexual acts against their will is "being hard on his people?" Mass murder is "being hard on his people?"

 

 

 

I Think a different issue because Israel was "legally" given to the Jews. While the Palestinians had no where to go.. Completely different because the Jews are kicking around the Palestinians. In Iraq extremist want power over the state. If there was someone in power, such as Saddam, then there wouldnt be any problems. But yet again Bush needed his oil...

 

 

 

And there is Christians and Jews in Iraq. I know this because I have Iraqi friends who are Christian, and they tell me there are Jews who live in Iraq.

 

 

 

I'm sorry but you're wrong. There are no substantial populations of Christians and Jews in Iraq - and as said before, the civil war in Iraq has nothing to do with the three religions. It has to do with Muslims fighting Muslims.

 

 

 

You're right, if Saddam was in power there wouldn't be civil war. There would be legal mass murder. Why don't you respond to the fact that Saddam killing thousands of his own people for no reason? Why don't you respond to Saddam's r.ape rooms? You say that Saddam was better for Iraq, yet he killed thousands of his own people? Please defend that statement.

 

 

 

Civil war happened in America once, it made our country stronger. Its better than peace that is only controlled by a dictator who will kill you if you are a different race or say something he doesn't like. That's fair. That's logical. :roll:

[Kryptic]

Evil, I dont think it's Iran who is screwing over the oil prices... but its an organization that is.

 

 

 

The arab oil companies realized that fighting eachother for the oil wont work... so they decided to join as one big oil company, to screw everyone else up. They say its Iran, but its really not..

[Guest GhostRanger]

I think it is commen knowledge that Bush wants oil from the middle east.

 

 

 

That statement couldn't be any less true. The only people still saying Bush wanted oil are the hippie protestors who just quit protesting Vietnam. Democrats don't even use that anymore. CNN reporters don't even use that anymore. It doesn't make logical sense - there's no basis for the claim and therefore, the ridiculous argument dropped.

 

 

 

There are much more reasonable anti-Bush arguments out there. Oil is tired.

[Kryptic]

Why don't you respond to the fact that Saddam killing thousands of his own people for no reason? Why don't you respond to Saddam's r.ape rooms? You say that Saddam was better for Iraq, yet he killed thousands of his own people? Please defend that statement.

 

 

 

Civil war happened in America once, it made our country stronger. Its better than peace that is only controlled by a dictator who will kill you if you are a different race or say something he doesn't like. That's fair. That's logical. :roll:

 

 

 

I said clearly that Im not justifying anything Saddam did. I for one hate Saddam for what he did. As I said before (hopefullly you will get it this time) that Saddam was preventing Civil War, whether you like it or not, he did. He also did other things, as you mentioned. This thread was just to open up everyones minds a bit, not to make anyone mad. Just wanted everyone to be aware that Saddam did prevent Civil War.

[Barihawk]

I will agree with you that Saddam was keeping the insurgents in check with fear until we ousted him. However, is genocide worth that? Hundreds of thousands died in the chemical attacks 20 years ago, and 3000 have died since he was removed. That's hardly worth comparing.

 

 

 

Right now, all the violence is between Shi'ite and Sunni factions. Add a sprinkling of Al Queda in there attacking Coalition troops and you have Iraq's violence. Many of the Coalition deaths recently have been unintentional as those troops were protecting mosques that were bombed.

 

 

 

So yes, there is much religious hatred in Iraq. But it's not limited there. Look at France (a few months ago), look at Israel...

[Guest GhostRanger]

I said clearly that Im not justifying anything Saddam did. I for one hate Saddam for what he did. As I said before (hopefullly you will get it this time) that Saddam was preventing Civil War, whether you like it or not, he did. He also did other things, as you mentioned. This thread was just to open up everyones minds a bit, not to make anyone mad. Just wanted everyone to be aware that Saddam did prevent Civil War.

 

 

 

Saddam prevented Civil War? You say it like its a good thing, and I'm pointing out that it doesn't mean anything. He prevented civil war by killing people who disagreed with him. Are you saying its good that he prevented civil war and it would be better if he was still in power killing his people?

[Kryptic]

I think it is commen knowledge that Bush wants oil from the middle east.

 

 

 

That statement couldn't be any less true. The only people still saying Bush wanted oil are the hippie protestors who just quit protesting Vietnam. Democrats don't even use that anymore. CNN reporters don't even use that anymore. It doesn't make logical sense - there's no basis for the claim and therefore, the ridiculous argument dropped.

 

 

 

There are much more reasonable anti-Bush arguments out there. Oil is tired.

 

 

 

Making me look like an idiot when it comes to Saddam is one thing... but to say Bush didnt want oil?

 

 

 

Are you stupid? Let me break it down for you...

 

 

 

The first and second WW were all about Politics right? There will be a third WW, its enevitable.

 

 

 

Currently, China basically runs the world, because they are soo advanced on many levels, and have a lot of money. Seeing how there will be a third WW, the winner will be the country with the most money. China is in the lead right now, and the Middle East Oil Alliance grouping is in second.

 

 

 

Bush see's this... notices that America will be screwed soon. So he cleverly tricks all you Americans into thinking Saddam/Osama/Hamas, whomever is after America. "Terrorists". Bush then invades Afganistan... blah blah blah... notices there is more oil in the fallin state of Iraq, and invades Iraq for oil too.

 

 

 

When DMX said "Its all about money.." He wasnt joking..

[Guest GhostRanger]

Making me look like an idiot when it comes to Saddam is one thing... but to say Bush didnt want oil?

 

 

 

Are you stupid? Let me break it down for you...

 

 

 

The first and second WW were all about Politics right? There will be a third WW, its enevitable.

 

 

 

Currently, China basically runs the world, because they are soo advanced on many levels, and have a lot of money. Seeing how there will be a third WW, the winner will be the country with the most money. China is in the lead right now, and the Middle East Oil Alliance grouping is in second.

 

 

 

Bush see's this... notices that America will be screwed soon. So he cleverly tricks all you Americans into thinking Saddam/Osama/Hamas, whomever is after America. "Terrorists". Bush then invades Afganistan... blah blah blah... notices there is more oil in the fallin state of Iraq, and invades Iraq for oil too.

 

 

 

When DMX said "Its all about money.." He wasnt joking..

 

 

 

Actually, America is still the economic hedgemon of the world - China is on its way, but not there yet.

 

 

 

That is beside the point though, that has nothing to do with oil. Show me how invading Iraq let's us obtain oil cheaper - and then show me how that causes America to have more money. I have yet to see it happen so will you outline the process for me? No one has ever done it - which is why the issue has been dropped completely by people who actually keep up with politics.

 

 

 

EDIT: I forgot to respond to one point. Bush didn't have to trick us into thinking Osama is after us. He organized 9/11 and admitted it and contiunally releases tapes where he declares that he will be responsible for our downfall. You need to get out of your ideological cave.

[Kryptic]

Do you agree that Iraq has no governing body that will protect anyone? If you say yes... then you have no other choice but to agree to the fact that the oil is up for grabs. No one will stop America from invading Iraq, not even Iraq will stop America, because metaphorically - Iraq doesnt exist.

 

 

 

That makes money for America because Bush simply sells the Oil to you Americans for money...DUH!

[Guest GhostRanger]

Do you agree that Iraq has no governing body that will protect anyone? If you say yes... then you have no other choice but to agree to the fact that the oil is up for grabs. No one will stop America from invading Iraq, not even Iraq will stop America, because metaphorically - Iraq doesnt exist.

 

 

 

That makes money for America because Bush simply sells the Oil to you Americans for money...DUH!

 

 

 

If America was going to take the oil, we would have it all by now. What's stopping us now? That's the problem with the oil argument - we have had the opportunity to take it and haven't. The argument is old and tired, just admit it.

[Kryptic]

What the hell do you mean? you do have it.... isnt it in everyones car? every gas station?

 

 

 

BE MORE CLEAR!

[Guest GhostRanger]

What the hell do you mean? you do have it.... isnt it in everyones car? every gas station?

 

 

 

BE MORE CLEAR!

 

 

 

Clearly we have oil...but we're paying to import that. I'm saying that the United States is not in ownership of Iraqi oil. It doesn't belong to us. If we're in it "for the oil" wouldn't we have taken it by now? (By the way, I've had oil in my car since before the Iraqi war...)

[Kryptic]

Bush does have the oil! He makes sure no one tells one him though.

[Guest GhostRanger]

Bush does have the oil! He makes sure no one tells one him though.

 

 

 

So what is he doing with that oil? Filling up his own car for free? That sure sounds like its going to help America become a richer and more powerful country. Drop the conspiracy theory.

[Kryptic]

Yea, hes filling up his car for free, thats how he makes his money - wow your stupid!

 

 

 

He sells it to other countries under his companies name.... DUH!

[Guest GhostRanger]

Yea, hes filling up his car for free, thats how he makes his money - wow your stupid!

 

 

 

He sells it to other countries under his companies name.... DUH!

 

 

 

Please don't call me stupid. I was making a sarcastic statement...I wasn't serious.

 

 

 

What's the name of this company? Can you provide me with profit records?

[Kryptic]

I dont have that kind of proof....

 

 

 

And now this gives your grounds to flame me and make me look stupid.

 

 

 

But you know what, Im not the one being fooled by a Texan goof ball.