Affirmative Action

[chris1216]

This whole "harms whites" argument is complete crap if you concede that white privilege is still a reality in today's society. It comes at the price of oppressing every other race.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How the hell do you cry and whine about privilege that is taken away because it was gained from enslavement and oppression?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, darkmage clearly managed to lose all credibility with his answer to my hypothetical question.

[Viktorkrum77]

This whole "harms whites" argument is complete crap if you concede that white privilege is still a reality in today's society. It comes at the price of oppressing every other race.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fail, ever heard of white trash?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or maybe you've heard of:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oprah Winfrey

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Beyonc̮̩̉̉ Knowles

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P. Diddy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Colin Powel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Condoleezza Rice

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the end, no matter your race or your income level (though certain people are are at an advantage, but that's history, what you can you do about it) you can do anything (whithin reason), see above examples.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example, in white middle class, a student may work his/her arse off to get into college, and they will. But they may be second up to someone who didn't work as hard, and had race as an advantage to them. I am glad that Michigan is finally doing something. As in my above examples, you can do anything (within reason). If you want it that bad, you can achieve it regardless of your race, etc. If you don't achieve it, than obviously you didn't want it badly enough. Success has no room for failure or quitters, you're either in, or your out. It all comes down to your choice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yes, some people will have to work harder than others. That's obvious, welcome to society.

[Adam007]

 

 

 

I think the part of your statement that actually made me laugh is when you said the "nation is mostly healed from racism and oppression".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, what kind of backward and blind thinking are you doing? You actually think this nation has "healed" anything? This nation has made oppression invisible to YOU. You clearly have led a privileged life, which blinds you to the real situation in the U.S. today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your ivory tower "ignore race and stop paying attention and racism will fade away" is the nihilistic equivalent of "if we can't see it, it'll disappear".

 

 

 

Here's a question for you. Are you assuming it's human nature to be racist to minorities? I live near Detroit, and my dad works in Detroit where the majority of his co-workers are black. Because he is white, should he have received special employment privileges because he's a minority and it would be assumed his employers would have a natural ingrained sense of racism towards him? Or are only white people racist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From my experiences going to an extremely diverse school, I see everyone being at an equal opportunity. I don't know what position you think you're in to play the "you don't know how bad it is for people" on me when you don't know my upbringing, but I've been brought up in a really diverse environment. I suppose my schooling system could be an exception, and it's possible that minorities at other schools truly have a disadvantage, but that just doesn't occur at my school. I just don't see any acts of racism. Any unlevelling of the playing field is brought upon oneself because of the self fulfilling prophecy of people thinking "since the world is racist, I can't get anywhere in life." IF we ever want to get above racism, reverse racism isn't the right path. Bite the bullet now with what has to be dealt with to eliminate race programs as a whole for future generations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really believe the only problems with perceived racism is due to self victimization. If someone is wronged and blame it on racism mentally, they're only hurting themselves. Even if it really was rooted on racism, escalating a situation only makes it worse. Call me delusional, but I really believe we're on a path to getting rid of racism. Inevitably with the level of globalization we're having the whole world will be one color. Granted this would take a few centuries, but my point is that we're on that path. And racial assimilation, although I'm against assimilation, is good for countering racism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have two examples from you:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) The "constitution" and "freedom" you so value was paradoxically built on enslavement

 

 

 

2) When Texas was owned by Mexico, slavery was ILLEGAL. When Texas declared "independence" and won its "freedom" from Mexico, slavery became LEGAL.

 

 

 

Explain how the constitution is built on enslavement? I'm not a history buff, but the whole deal about all men being equal always was emphasized. I doubt most of the founders supported the idealogy of owning another human being, and slavery didn't become rampant until later. I'm sure some founders could have owned slaves, but the words I read are what have value. Not whether or not someone back then was tempted into owning a slave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me wrap up by once again saying I'm not opposed to all forms of affirmative action. Economic factors are fine to base things on - they really show an upbringing a child faced. Race, on the other hand, is a terrible way of handing out freebies in life. You just can't classify someone by a few strings of genetic code. People are more than that. And if people really need these handouts and can't get anywhere in life without them, it's because of their own failures. They formed distorted expectations of themselves, and stopped believing in what they could do. Even if someone has one hurdle of racism, that's a hurdle they should be able to get over. To take a minority's hurdle and place it in front of a majority's is just reverse racism. I know it's a overused word in this setting, but it just makes no sense to take a majority's position at a university away from him/her when he/she is more qualified for it in favor of giving it to someone who has a skin color that happens to be more rare, under the assumption that people with rarer skin colors need really nonexistent hurdles removed from them(and in turn just placed in someone else).

[chris1216]

Your argument is terrible for reasons:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Being white is still an advantage in today's society

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) The existence of impoverished whites means nothing because even they still enjoy privileges from being white

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) Your list of 5 successful blacks is supposed to mean something? There's always exceptions, none of them disproving that white privilege is still a fact in today's society- not every white person is going to be incredibly successful, but not every black person is going to live in poverty for their entire lives.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4) http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/s ... vrace.html

 

 

 

Click and you'll notice the MASSIVE disparity in poverty levels between minorities and whites, and that's only from 3 seconds of Google

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5) Your argument about college entrance seems to imply that the white person that didn't get in is disadvantaged for life- which is stupid because a) that application is not in fact the end of the world for the, B) their skin color still gives them a massive advantage in every aspect of life

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6) Your argument that someone has to work harder of course comes from a perspective of someone who was born into and still lives with privilege, which means you've never considered the possibility that there are situations you can be born into that even hard work can't get you out of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many times have you heard the story: a single black mother working THREE JOBS to feed her children and still going nowhere?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The WORST part about us being privileged is the fact that we choose to ignore it.

[Viktorkrum77]

You want to know why, it's because of HISTORY!! Whites were in huge poverty at the turn of the century, and during the Great Depression, the numbers were huge, they were poor immigrants living on the streets. And you know what they did, they decided to better themselves, and they achieved it, and by the 1950's the American Dream was a reality, and hard working Americans benefited from their hardworking ancestors just one generation below them who were poor as hell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point? The whites today are people who themselves or their ancestors worked hard to earn. Hilton, Carnegie, Rockefeller, all these were normal people, and they changed that. If the whites changed themselves during the turn of the century and after the Great Depression by accepting opportunities, than why can't blacks today? A vast majority of poor blacks and Latinos don't care about success, they don't get raised properly, and they fall to drug abuse, and gangs, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alot of poverty stricken people live off welfare, and they don't try to get jobs, they just have more babies so they can have more welfare money. I respect those who try to better themselves and their lives, they are making a difference, but the sad truth is, most don't. They are just sucking America for all it's money and resources, and not paying their debt to society. Middle Class Whites get hurt by these taxes, they have to strive to pay bills, while others go out and spend this money of DG or Coach or drugs, etc. And I don't believe you should hurt normal hard working Americans who are themselves striving to get into college, by putting a race barrier upon them (and also poverty stricken blacks and Latinos trying to make a difference). This is just more of America being used for all the wrong reasons. No matter your background you have a chance, and it has been done and proved countless times that you can make something out of nothing (well, excluding matter anyway :P).

[chris1216]

You want to know why, it's because of HISTORY!! Whites were in huge poverty at the turn of the century, and during the Great Depression, the numbers were huge, they were poor immigrants living on the streets. And you know what they did, they decided to better themselves, and they achieved it, and by the 1950's the American Dream was a reality, and hard working Americans benefited from their hardworking ancestors just one generation below them who were poor as hell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point? The whites today are people who themselves or their ancestors worked hard to earn. Hilton, Carnegie, Rockefeller, all these were normal people, and they changed that. If the whites changed themselves during the turn of the century and after the Great Depression by accepting opportunities, than why can't blacks today? A vast majority of poor blacks and Latinos don't care about success, they don't get raised properly, and they fall to drug abuse, and gangs, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And there is quite possibly the most racist and ignorant statement ever uttered on the boards of Tip it: Minorities don't succeed because they don't care.

[mad4u689]

You want to know why, it's because of HISTORY!! Whites were in huge poverty at the turn of the century, and during the Great Depression, the numbers were huge, they were poor immigrants living on the streets. And you know what they did, they decided to better themselves, and they achieved it, and by the 1950's the American Dream was a reality, and hard working Americans benefited from their hardworking ancestors just one generation below them who were poor as hell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point? The whites today are people who themselves or their ancestors worked hard to earn. Hilton, Carnegie, Rockefeller, all these were normal people, and they changed that. If the whites changed themselves during the turn of the century and after the Great Depression by accepting opportunities, than why can't blacks today? A vast majority of poor blacks and Latinos don't care about success, they don't get raised properly, and they fall to drug abuse, and gangs, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alot of poverty stricken people live off welfare, and they don't try to get jobs, they just have more babies so they can have more welfare money. I respect those who do, they are making a difference, but the sad truth is, most don't. They are just sucking America for all it's money and resources, and not paying their debt to society. Middle Class Whites get hurt by these taxes, they have to strive to pay bills, while others go out and spend this money of DG or Coach or drugs, etc. And I don't believe you should hurt normal hard working Americans who are themselves striving to get into college, by putting a race barrier upon them. This is just more of America being used for all the wrong reasons. No matter your background you have a chance, and it has been done and proved countless times that you can make something out of nothing (well, excluding matter anyway :P).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the type of "thinking" that makes me sick. I can't even respond to it right now. Please read my previous post.

[Adam007]

 

You want to know why, it's because of HISTORY!! Whites were in huge poverty at the turn of the century, and during the Great Depression, the numbers were huge, they were poor immigrants living on the streets. And you know what they did, they decided to better themselves, and they achieved it, and by the 1950's the American Dream was a reality, and hard working Americans benefited from their hardworking ancestors just one generation below them who were poor as hell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point? The whites today are people who themselves or their ancestors worked hard to earn. Hilton, Carnegie, Rockefeller, all these were normal people, and they changed that. If the whites changed themselves during the turn of the century and after the Great Depression by accepting opportunities, than why can't blacks today? A vast majority of poor blacks and Latinos don't care about success, they don't get raised properly, and they fall to drug abuse, and gangs, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And there is quite possibly the most racist and ignorant statement ever uttered on the boards of Tip it: Minorities don't succeed because they don't care.

 

 

 

Granted that's a broad generalization, but a lot of the time it is because of their environment and what is put in their head. Which is why I support AA for economic factors - just not race.

 

 

 

And could you address the latest reply I made to you Chris?

[Viktorkrum77]

Yes, well, I did mean a broad generalization. There are lots of poverty stricken people trying to make a difference, and I respect that, but others are making them look bad, and they are being hurt by how people look down on them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I support AA based on income only. I do not support welfare unless one has a job, and what I wrote didn't come out right, it's not easy to write.

[Viktorkrum77]

And there is quite possibly the most racist and ignorant statement ever uttered on the boards of Tip it: Minorities don't succeed because they don't care.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, that was a sweeping generalization, it was a mistake, it came out wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not racist, I am even best friends with a black girl, trust me, I've heard worse things before in my life, especially when I went to Chicago.

[rocketman089]

"I'm not racist, I have a black friend!." That always makes me lol.

[Viktorkrum77]

"I'm not racist, I have a black friend!." That always makes me lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't want to use that as an example, because it seems pathetic, but it got the point across wither way so, yea, whatever works I guess lol.

[chris1216]

 

 

You want to know why, it's because of HISTORY!! Whites were in huge poverty at the turn of the century, and during the Great Depression, the numbers were huge, they were poor immigrants living on the streets. And you know what they did, they decided to better themselves, and they achieved it, and by the 1950's the American Dream was a reality, and hard working Americans benefited from their hardworking ancestors just one generation below them who were poor as hell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point? The whites today are people who themselves or their ancestors worked hard to earn. Hilton, Carnegie, Rockefeller, all these were normal people, and they changed that. If the whites changed themselves during the turn of the century and after the Great Depression by accepting opportunities, than why can't blacks today? A vast majority of poor blacks and Latinos don't care about success, they don't get raised properly, and they fall to drug abuse, and gangs, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And there is quite possibly the most racist and ignorant statement ever uttered on the boards of Tip it: Minorities don't succeed because they don't care.

 

 

 

Granted that's a broad generalization, but a lot of the time it is because of their environment and what is put in their head. Which is why I support AA for economic factors - just not race.

 

 

 

And could you address the latest reply I made to you Chris?

 

 

 

Chris, could you reply to the argument I just made?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gimme time, Adam. Despite the skills I'm getting from sparring with you that i'm going to use in writing my papers this semester, real life and love of ESPN.com interferes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll write out an answer after i'm done grocery shopping tonight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And seriously. "I'm not racist because I'm best friends with someone who's black?"

[Viktorkrum77]

In my opinion, this is a real world argument, you can't get the right points across on the internet through typing. I had this argument already, so I hold strong to what I wrote in the other thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm done for now, you all can continue this, but you're not going to achieve anything. We didn't in the 7 page or whatever it was other thread.

[Adam007]

 

 

 

You want to know why, it's because of HISTORY!! Whites were in huge poverty at the turn of the century, and during the Great Depression, the numbers were huge, they were poor immigrants living on the streets. And you know what they did, they decided to better themselves, and they achieved it, and by the 1950's the American Dream was a reality, and hard working Americans benefited from their hardworking ancestors just one generation below them who were poor as hell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point? The whites today are people who themselves or their ancestors worked hard to earn. Hilton, Carnegie, Rockefeller, all these were normal people, and they changed that. If the whites changed themselves during the turn of the century and after the Great Depression by accepting opportunities, than why can't blacks today? A vast majority of poor blacks and Latinos don't care about success, they don't get raised properly, and they fall to drug abuse, and gangs, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And there is quite possibly the most racist and ignorant statement ever uttered on the boards of Tip it: Minorities don't succeed because they don't care.

 

 

 

Granted that's a broad generalization, but a lot of the time it is because of their environment and what is put in their head. Which is why I support AA for economic factors - just not race.

 

 

 

And could you address the latest reply I made to you Chris?

 

 

 

Chris, could you reply to the argument I just made?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gimme time, Adam. Despite the skills I'm getting from sparring with you that i'm going to use in writing my papers this semester, real life and love of ESPN.com interferes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll write out an answer after i'm done grocery shopping tonight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And seriously. "I'm not racist because I'm best friends with someone who's black?"

 

 

 

Haha...I typed asking for you to respond, got distracted by something, and retyped it, forgetting I just did, making me look all hyperactive/impatient. :oops:

[gonpost]

I want you all to read a little comment I found on Digg (a technology news site). This is a very insightful comment, and it's from the affected party's point of view.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Admittedly, being black myself I often put myself in situations not unlike what was described in the commentary. What people don't understand is that even amongst black people there is something of a "schism" between the classes. Middle-to-upper class blacks want nothing more than to distance themselves from their lower classed counterparts. It's not difficult to pick these sort of people out. Few of their friends are black. They dress differently. Speak a different vernacular. All of this is intended to act as a clue to others, particularly non-blacks, that they are "different" from their lower-classed counterparts. They (we) intend this as a means to differentiate ourselves so that we are more palatable to a society that is otherwise not apt to accept a full integration of typical black ways of dress, speech, and behavior.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately there is a code of silence. Not only between blacks and whites who are afraid to address issues of race, but even among blacks ourselves. Bill Cosby's words while needlessly harsh and paternalistic, were nonetheless true. We can't expect Tayshaun to go to a college, get an education, and integrate into American society when he instead is captive to the lyrics of 50 Cent, chooses a substandard form of the English language, and drops out of school. It hurts for us to address these issues because we understand that a lot of it is true. I have quite possibly upset many other African-Americans reading this. However, one must also consider that society places pressure of many Blacks in America to "conform" to what society wants them to be. While "acting black" may be cool for the White kid, he can easily morph his way of speech, change his style of dress, conceal his taste in music, I, on the other hand, can never disguise my race. To anyone who doesn't know me, I'm just another Black guy. I'm just another drug-dealing, wanna-be aspiring rap artist, on a one-way path to prison. Society places pressure on Blacks to conform or die.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is this situation that leads some blacks to adapt. That is, dress differently, talk differently, and keep a lot of white friends. Alternatively, it leaves some to not adapt -- that is, to not conform. Therefore, in what can be considered an act of defiance, dress differently, talk differently, perpetuate patterns of poverty because they are unwilling to integrate into what American society pressures them to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I want nothing more than an open, honest discussion on race relations in America. It is long overdue, yet severely needed. If there were greater dialog perhaps situations for Blacks and non-Blacks could improve. Unfortunately, political correctness and uneasiness about the issue will prevent such from happening."

[mad4u689]

gonpost, thanks for posting that. It really made me think.

[Ambassadar]

Excellent post Gonpost.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As to the person that said this earlier:

 

 

 

2) Affirmative action, while not in the slightest a good long term solution, is all we've got and it has its benefits

 

 

 

It's all you have? What about your brain? Compete with everyone else mentally by getting better grades and scoring better on standardized tests to get into college and win your spot fairly. That is what the rest of the country and world has to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmitive action is like playing a basketball game and spotting the other team 10 points before the game even starts. If the team that was spotted the points wins you have to wonder... do you actually consider that a win?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I was black I would hate affirmitive action because I could succeed on my own without it and I would hate everyone second guessing me wondering if I had only gotten in to fill some racial quota. Earning their respect would be much harder because of this.

[chris1216]

Excellent post Gonpost.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As to the person that said this earlier:

 

 

 

2) Affirmative action, while not in the slightest a good long term solution, is all we've got and it has its benefits

 

 

 

It's all you have? What about your brain? Compete with everyone else mentally by getting better grades and scoring better on standardized tests to get into college and win your spot fairly. That is what the rest of the country and world has to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmitive action is like playing a basketball game and spotting the other team 10 points before the game even starts. If the team that was spotted the points wins you have to wonder... do you actually consider that a win?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I was black I would hate affirmitive action because I could succeed on my own without it and I would hate everyone second guessing me wondering if I had only gotten in to fill some racial quota. Earning their respect would be much harder because of this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That post you're quoting is from me, and you're wrong because

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Your argument assumes that the game being played is 0-0 without affirmative action, which is wrong because its more like being tilted 0-40 in favor of whites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) You have no idea what it's actually like to be born into situations that many people are born into- this whole "my brain can take me anywhere i want" is stupid motivational sayings that our teachers tried to drill into our brains since we were in diapers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) If you were black? Shut up. You have no idea what its like to have a different skin color, don't ever think about presuming to know what its like to be nonwhite.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not quite sure what makes some of you so presumptuous that you claim to be able to put yourself into other people's shoes, but the only thing many of you are qualified to talk about is the privilege you've received ever since you were born.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Adam, I swear I'll get to your post.

[ktmcf121]

 

Excellent post Gonpost.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As to the person that said this earlier:

 

 

 

2) Affirmative action, while not in the slightest a good long term solution, is all we've got and it has its benefits

 

 

 

It's all you have? What about your brain? Compete with everyone else mentally by getting better grades and scoring better on standardized tests to get into college and win your spot fairly. That is what the rest of the country and world has to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmitive action is like playing a basketball game and spotting the other team 10 points before the game even starts. If the team that was spotted the points wins you have to wonder... do you actually consider that a win?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I was black I would hate affirmitive action because I could succeed on my own without it and I would hate everyone second guessing me wondering if I had only gotten in to fill some racial quota. Earning their respect would be much harder because of this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That post you're quoting is from me, and you're wrong because

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Your argument assumes that the game being played is 0-0 without affirmative action, which is wrong because its more like being tilted 0-40 in favor of whites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) You have no idea what it's actually like to be born into situations that many people are born into- this whole "my brain can take me anywhere i want" is stupid motivational sayings that our teachers tried to drill into our brains since we were in diapers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) If you were black? Shut up. You have no idea what its like to have a different skin color, don't ever think about presuming to know what its like to be nonwhite.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not quite sure what makes some of you so presumptuous that you claim to be able to put yourself into other people's shoes, but the only thing many of you are qualified to talk about is the privilege you've received ever since you were born.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Adam, I swear I'll get to your post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

isnt this post just a little racist? you are putting all white people into the rich/priveliged stereotype. yes, i am white. what does that have to do with anything? i was born into a middle class family. i went through high school disgusted at all the favors teachers did for black people just because they were afraid that if they didnt give them special treatment that they would be considered racist. no i am not racist. i have friends that are black, i have friends that are asian, i have friends that are middle eastern. i think affirmative action is an outdated piece of legislation that has no value in today's society. when i graduated from high school, i applied for college, and i got into one of the best engineering schools in the US based solely on my act scores and gpa/work experience. scholarships, or job opportunities based on the color of your skin, whether white, black, asian, or whatever, is just pure racism. you can't argue that it isnt segregation. its illogical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

how is it that scholarships given only to blacks based on nothing but the color of thier skin are "cultural" while if there were a scholarship given only to whites based on the color of thier skin is "racist." disgusting.

[mad4u689]

Just to clear up something:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The reason chris and I are speaking about white people as privileged is that white people ARE privileged. There is subtle embedded racism everpresent in our society (that is, at least, in the US, the UK, and Australia; I can speak less for other societies internationally).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example, in kindergarten, a teacher will (without being conscious of it or realizing it) have lower expectations for a black student than a white student. Psychological studies show that when a teacher has lower expectations for a student, the student's performance suffers (and vice versa for higher expectations). Interestingly, a similar trend occurs with males and females in math and science classes - this is the most popular theory for the achievement gap between the sexes in the sciences.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Living as a black person in society, every day, 24/7, you are bound to have a different experience than a white person. People will see your skin color and judge you a little bit, before making a conscious effort to not judge you (after it's already too late).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Race is separate from class. The lived experience of every black person is certainly not the same as the lived experience of every working-class person, and so it is naive to think that affirmative action can just be boiled down to income.

[chris1216]

Calling me racist is hilarious, ktmcf, because of your following statement:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scholarships are given to blacks only because of their skin color.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument of course, means that the person who received that scholarship had ZERO qualifications for getting that scholarship.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Translation: Everyone that benefits from affirmative action is incompetent and undeserving, everyone that "gets screwed" because of affirmative action got screwed because they were more competent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You see where I'm going with this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What you fail to realize is that you in fact were born privileged, lived privileged, and still act as if you weren't getting any favors. How exactly do you think your ability to get those act scores/WORK EXPERIENCE/GPA came about? Did you scratch your way through a school that couldn't afford teachers, much less books?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone that argues with me on this thread really has no idea the kind of privilege they got during their lives- it's like they think they started out equal with everyone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your entire post is filled with racist privileged assumptions and you don't even know it. That's the entirety of the problem.

[ktmcf121]

 

 

 

Scholarships are given to blacks only because of their skin color.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument of course, means that the person who received that scholarship had ZERO qualifications for getting that scholarship.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Translation: Everyone that benefits from affirmative action is incompetent and undeserving, everyone that "gets screwed" because of affirmative action got screwed because they were more competent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i'm pretty sure i spoke in english, so no translation is necessary. i said exactly what i meant, and in no way implied that black people were incompetent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

all i'm trying to say is that scholarships, jobs, etc, should be given to people based only on thier qualifications. anyone can accomplish what they want with enough hard work. AA just allows lowers the standard for certain race groups.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if me believing that no one should be given special treatment based on the color of their skin makes me racist, then i'm proud to be racist.

[chris1216]

 

 

 

Here's a question for you. Are you assuming it's human nature to be racist to minorities? I live near Detroit, and my dad works in Detroit where the majority of his co-workers are black. Because he is white, should he have received special employment privileges because he's a minority and it would be assumed his employers would have a natural ingrained sense of racism towards him? Or are only white people racist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From my experiences going to an extremely diverse school, I see everyone being at an equal opportunity. I don't know what position you think you're in to play the "you don't know how bad it is for people" on me when you don't know my upbringing, but I've been brought up in a really diverse environment. I suppose my schooling system could be an exception, and it's possible that minorities at other schools truly have a disadvantage, but that just doesn't occur at my school. I just don't see any acts of racism. Any unlevelling of the playing field is brought upon oneself because of the self fulfilling prophecy of people thinking "since the world is racist, I can't get anywhere in life." IF we ever want to get above racism, reverse racism isn't the right path. Bite the bullet now with what has to be dealt with to eliminate race programs as a whole for future generations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really believe the only problems with perceived racism is due to self victimization. If someone is wronged and blame it on racism mentally, they're only hurting themselves. Even if it really was rooted on racism, escalating a situation only makes it worse. Call me delusional, but I really believe we're on a path to getting rid of racism. Inevitably with the level of globalization we're having the whole world will be one color. Granted this would take a few centuries, but my point is that we're on that path. And racial assimilation, although I'm against assimilation, is good for countering racism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Explain how the constitution is built on enslavement? I'm not a history buff, but the whole deal about all men being equal always was emphasized. I doubt most of the founders supported the idealogy of owning another human being, and slavery didn't become rampant until later. I'm sure some founders could have owned slaves, but the words I read are what have value. Not whether or not someone back then was tempted into owning a slave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me wrap up by once again saying I'm not opposed to all forms of affirmative action. Economic factors are fine to base things on - they really show an upbringing a child faced. Race, on the other hand, is a terrible way of handing out freebies in life. You just can't classify someone by a few strings of genetic code. People are more than that. And if people really need these handouts and can't get anywhere in life without them, it's because of their own failures. They formed distorted expectations of themselves, and stopped believing in what they could do. Even if someone has one hurdle of racism, that's a hurdle they should be able to get over. To take a minority's hurdle and place it in front of a majority's is just reverse racism. I know it's a overused word in this setting, but it just makes no sense to take a majority's position at a university away from him/her when he/she is more qualified for it in favor of giving it to someone who has a skin color that happens to be more rare, under the assumption that people with rarer skin colors need really nonexistent hurdles removed from them(and in turn just placed in someone else).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) White people are not the only racists, and to try to imply I'm saying otherwise is ludicrous. Your entire argument about your dad at work is illogical because your dad is NOT the minority. You take a literal definition of the word "minority", which is misguided on both metaphorical and literal levels.

 

 

 

A) On a literal level, whites are the overwhelming majority in the United States, and just because your dad works sorrounded by blacks does not somehow prevent him from no longer being grouped with the majority

 

 

 

B) On a metaphorical level, we take the concept of "majority" as the group with the majority of power. Unless you are deaf, dumb, blind, and without nerves so that someone can write on your hand like Hellen Keller, it's blindly obvious that the overwhelming majority of power in all forms in the United States is held by whites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Diversity has always been and will always be a buzzword used by people in their misguided attempt to dodge the label of "racist" instead of attempting to understand and break down racism. Don't bother using that word because it has zero meaning to me- diversity is a word people use because they're terrified of being called a racist, not being racist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) Your claim that you went to a diverse school also has absolutely no weight, and you are correct in saying that it was an exception.

 

 

 

A) The racial demographic of your school most likely still had a white majority, and even if it didn't, see D

 

 

 

B) There still exist schools that are lily-white with highly qualified well paid teachers and a wealth of funding for technology and books

 

 

 

C) There still exist schools that are nearly all black with no funding for ANYTHING.

 

 

 

D) Your individual school experience means as much as mine: absolutely nothing. Unless your school demographic represents every single school in the U.S., don't generalize it. I went to a school that was mostly middle class, mostly white, and while they still had "budget issues", they recently spent $15 million in upgrades. You find me a school in urban Chicago that got that much money without being beneficiaries of a celebrity or philanthropist, you let me know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4) Your argument that everyone brings the unleveling of the playing field upon themselves is discussed below due to its importance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5) You really want to know why this country was built on enslavement? Slavery started FAR before the Constitution was ever a twinkle in the founder's eyes. The constitution JUSTIFIED racism simply by not declaring it illegal or wrong- the statement "all men are created equal" comes with the omitted portion "except for negros, because we need to placate the south to stay in the war for independence with us, so we're going to allow slavery, which is easily and by far the worst crime humanity ever committed against itself"

 

 

 

A) Jefferson owned slaves

 

 

 

B) Black African slavery existed in the U.S. for 167 YEARS before the Constitution was written

 

 

 

C) It's hard not to point to the part of the constitution that gave 3/5ths of a vote for every black slave owned by a slaveowner as their way of counting blacks in the constitution. THREE FIFTHS of a PERSON.

 

 

 

D) When the Constitution, none of it was ever considered applicable to blacks

 

 

 

E) Section 9. The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION: We're going to allow slavery until 1808

 

 

 

Don't ever ask me on whether or not the ends justify the means.

 

 

 

F) Article 4, Section 2: No person held to service or labor in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due. TRANSLATION: Escaped slaves shall be returned to their owners

 

 

 

G) Here's the real kicker. Section 2 of Article 4 was removed. The Bill of Rights, adopted in 1791, states that "no person can be deprived of life, liberty, or property." Slaves were considered property, and slaveholders could take their property (slaves) with them even into free states.

 

 

 

H) Most Northern states abolished slavery by 1804 not because it was wrong, but because it wasn't profitable for them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your final argument, that racism nowadays is brought about by self victimization, is so absolutely racist, ignorant, abhorrent and presumptuous that it actually makes me angry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Stop attempting to generalize your personal experience (I can do anything I want if I work hard) to everyone else

 

 

 

2) Believing that this country is on a path towards eliminating racism is not delusional, it is dangerously corruptive and devastating to actual attempts to break down racism- your inability to see it in no way denies its existence

[chris1216]

 

 

 

 

Scholarships are given to blacks only because of their skin color.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument of course, means that the person who received that scholarship had ZERO qualifications for getting that scholarship.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Translation: Everyone that benefits from affirmative action is incompetent and undeserving, everyone that "gets screwed" because of affirmative action got screwed because they were more competent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i'm pretty sure i spoke in english, so no translation is necessary. i said exactly what i meant, and in no way implied that black people were incompetent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

all i'm trying to say is that scholarships, jobs, etc, should be given to people based only on thier qualifications. anyone can accomplish what they want with enough hard work. AA just allows lowers the standard for certain race groups.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if me believing that no one should be given special treatment based on the color of their skin makes me racist, then i'm proud to be racist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You still don't realize that the omitted portion of your argument that "affirmative action is wrong, people should only be judged on their qualifications" is that anyone that recieved benefits from affirmative action were unqualified and only got that scholarship or job offer because they were a minority.