Thanks for all your views guys. It's good to see we can talk about this without flame wars sarting out. :anxious:

 

 

 

So I don't see it fair for atheists who think they should be able to choose *not* God - and then find it unfair when that's what they get afterwards - to expect God to put them in heaven (which by defintion, is the presence of God - the very thing an atheist would abhorr), seems ludicrous to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just for reference sake, I'm an agnostic. I can't deny or hate something I basically know nothing about or have had no contact with. It's nonsensical to me.

You know....Its not like only christains are always being flamed and saying thier wrong about religon, and that evoultion is right. Other religons can also be made fun of. I know some people who were made fun of becuase they believed in religon.

You know....Its not like only christains are always being flamed and saying thier wrong about religon, and that evoultion is right. Other religons can also be made fun of. I know some people who were made fun of becuase they believed in religon.

 

 

 

I agree with you. I know the reason you see more defense of Christianity is because it is more of a personal question and most of the people stepping in to answer it are Christians so they can only say how that question relates to their experience with Christianity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Feel free to enlighten us to some Jewish perspective on things. :wink:

 

 

 

This belief is held both by Christians and Hebrews (note that I use the actual name of the religion, not "Jew" which really is an odd term. The Bible always refers to the Hebrew Faith).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew isn't the name of the religion. Jews are to judaism as muslim is to islam as christian is to christianity. Hebrew is like chinese is to china.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also I notice that people are taking the bible literally or not literally, so it really depends on who you are and what you believe. Everyone is different, so it's very ethnocentric to think only what you believe for the rest of the world.

Can God sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would say no. I would say sinning is acting not according to God's character. Thus if God does something, it is according to his character and not a sin.

 

Can God sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would say no. I would say sinning is acting not according to God's character. Thus if God does something, it is according to his character and not a sin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God's rules for us apparently don't apply to himself, so the simple answer would be "No." He killed hudreds of thousands of people in the Bible, and that's a no-no for us.

this a very deep post, please dont clutter it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

edit: oops :oops: !

 

 

 

So I don't see it fair for atheists who think they should be able to choose *not* God - and then find it unfair when that's what they get afterwards - to expect God to put them in heaven (which by defintion, is the presence of God - the very thing an atheist would abhorr), seems ludicrous to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how its fair for good people to recieve eternal damnation just because they doubted something, that hasn't even bothered to prove itself to the world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If God wants us to believe in him so bad, then why can't he come here and prove to us hes real?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, how can he have the right? To throw people into the bowels of hell, for not believing, when he has never given us a reason to believe, I've seen some pretty arrogant people before, but that would take the cake.

 

 

 

 

So I don't see it fair for atheists who think they should be able to choose *not* God - and then find it unfair when that's what they get afterwards - to expect God to put them in heaven (which by defintion, is the presence of God - the very thing an atheist would abhorr), seems ludicrous to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how its fair for good people to recieve eternal damnation just because they doubted something, that hasn't even bothered to prove itself to the world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If God wants us to believe in him so bad, then why can't he come here and prove to us hes real?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, how can he have the right? To throw people into the bowels of hell, for not believing, when he has never given us a reason to believe, I've seen some pretty arrogant people before, but that would take the cake.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd have to agree with you there. The concept that a decent person could end up in hell for eternity just dosen't sit right with me, irrespective of anything scripture proclaims.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew isn't the name of the religion. Jews are to judaism as muslim is to islam as christian is to christianity. Hebrew is like chinese is to china.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In other words Hebrew is the Language.

I don't see how its fair for good people to recieve eternal damnation just because they doubted something, that hasn't even bothered to prove itself to the world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If God wants us to believe in him so bad, then why can't he come here and prove to us hes real?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, how can he have the right? To throw people into the bowels of hell, for not believing, when he has never given us a reason to believe, I've seen some pretty arrogant people before, but that would take the cake.

 

 

 

I have a feeling that if you ever meet a God figure, and ask those questions, It'd probably make you look like an idiot, and you'd probably feel like an idiot. Basically in the same way that Jesus did to those who questioned his opinions or tried to trick him :lol: . Jesus is a slick one, he'd be awesome at poker...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Besides, if you don't believe in It, and don't want to be with It, It'd just be granting your wish. Personally, you'd sound like a real [wagon] and a whiner if you felt you deserved passage into "Heaven", or whatever it is that defines being with "God". Hell has been defined as not being with God, which has has been stated. You don't want to be with a God. Therefore, you'd enter into "Hell", of your own choice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, good people would techincally be with God, and thus would not enter into "Hell". They are following the natural moral order or the universe that God has set, and that's as close to being with God as you can get.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, this is all speculation, we don't know for sure if a God exists :-$ . To me it seems like something has to be out there (from information I've gathered), but to each his own opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hebrew isn't the name of the religion. Jews are to judaism as muslim is to islam as christian is to christianity. Hebrew is like chinese is to china.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In other words Hebrew is the Language.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

also the name of the ppl

If God wants us to believe in him so bad, then why can't he come here and prove to us hes real?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If God were to come to earth, live among us, spend years teaching us, demonstrate power over sickness, nature, the supernatural, and even over death, would that be sufficient?

 

If God wants us to believe in him so bad, then why can't he come here and prove to us hes real?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If God were to come to earth, live among us, spend years teaching us, demonstrate power over sickness, nature, the supernatural, and even over death, would that be sufficient?

 

 

 

Sadly, if God came to earth and was living with us directly, we would have no reason to live. Knowing God is the end of it all, if God really is the creator of everything (there would be nothing past God). So knowing him within our human lifetime would make it completely pointless to even bother with anything, since we would already know what is the greatest thing in the universe, and have been in direct contact with it, making everything worthless and pointless in comparison. Why strive for something we've already obtained?

 

 

If God wants us to believe in him so bad, then why can't he come here and prove to us hes real?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If God were to come to earth, live among us, spend years teaching us, demonstrate power over sickness, nature, the supernatural, and even over death, would that be sufficient?

 

 

 

Sadly, if God came to earth and was living with us directly, we would have no reason to live. Knowing God is the end of it all, if God really is the creator of everything (there would be nothing past God). So knowing him within our human lifetime would make it completely pointless to even bother with anything, since we would already know what is the greatest thing in the universe, and have been in direct contact with it, making everything worthless and pointless in comparison. Why strive for something we've already obtained?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How could it ever be fully obtained? We are finite beings; God would be an infinite being. Knowing God would be the greatest adventure humans could ever embark on. We know God some, and are amazed by that knowledge. We get to know God better, and are amazed by that knowledge even more. God would be a infinite being - we could never exhaust the joy and excitement of knowing Him, for there would always be more to learn.

My point is, how can we be expected to believe in God, when we can't even be sure he exists?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It would be rather arrogant to throw good people into hell, just because they didn't believe, when there was no real proof to lead them to believe in the first place.

 

 

If God wants us to believe in him so bad, then why can't he come here and prove to us hes real?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If God were to come to earth, live among us, spend years teaching us, demonstrate power over sickness, nature, the supernatural, and even over death, would that be sufficient?

 

 

 

Sadly, if God came to earth and was living with us directly, we would have no reason to live. Knowing God is the end of it all, if God really is the creator of everything (there would be nothing past God). So knowing him within our human lifetime would make it completely pointless to even bother with anything, since we would already know what is the greatest thing in the universe, and have been in direct contact with it, making everything worthless and pointless in comparison. Why strive for something we've already obtained?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sucks for Moses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Though seriously, I'd like to see God leave at the least, a message of some kind.

How could it ever be fully obtained? We are finite beings; God would be an infinite being. Knowing God would be the greatest adventure humans could ever embark on. We know God some, and are amazed by that knowledge. We get to know God better, and are amazed by that knowledge even more. God would be a infinite being - we could never exhaust the joy and excitement of knowing Him, for there would always be more to learn.

 

 

 

Now this gets complicated since we don't really understand God... but even though He is infinite, we would be striving for God, not other things. We would seek only Him, and ignore everything else. Maybe He is an infinite being, but maybe we're hit with it all at once, and would be with the same God for all eternity...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Though, this is where it gets complicated..., if God really is just everything else anyways, then we're already doing that (learning about Him), and God is already with us, so crimson's question would answered anyways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sucks for Moses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Though seriously, I'd like to see God leave at the least, a message of some kind.

 

 

 

He probably has, and it probably seems unbearably obvious to Him, we're probably just too blind to see it :lol: .

My point is, how can we be expected to believe in God, when we can't even be sure he exists?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It would be rather arrogant to throw good people into hell, just because they didn't believe, when there was no real proof to lead them to believe in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course God doesn't throw good people into hell. Your problem is that you assume there is such a thing as a truly good person. Of course, you also assume that there is no proof. I challenge you to prove both of those assumptions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How could it ever be fully obtained? We are finite beings; God would be an infinite being. Knowing God would be the greatest adventure humans could ever embark on. We know God some, and are amazed by that knowledge. We get to know God better, and are amazed by that knowledge even more. God would be a infinite being - we could never exhaust the joy and excitement of knowing Him, for there would always be more to learn.

 

 

 

Now this gets complicated since we don't really understand God... but even though He is infinite, we would be striving for God, not other things. We would seek only Him, and ignore everything else. Maybe He is an infinite being, but maybe we're hit with it all at once, and would be with the same God for all eternity...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Though, this is where it gets complicated..., if God really is just everything else anyways, then we're already doing that (learning about Him), and God is already with us, so crimson's question would answered anyways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, in the Christian belief, God is not "everything else." The universe is dependent on God, but it is a seperate thing from Him, so that point is irrelevant to Christian theology. My point is simply that we as finite beings could spend eternity exploring a relationship with an infinite being, and never exhaust that source of knowledge, novelty, and adventure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And to Viktor, what if God did leave a message that we missed?

I'm talking about a very clear message. Something otherworldly, like a miracle beyond human proportion and human comprehension.

I'm talking about a very clear message. Something otherworldly, like a miracle beyond human proportion and human comprehension.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Such as dying, raising Himself back up to life, appearing to hundreds of people, showing the wounds from His death, and ascending to heaven?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or something such as His followers speaking in languages they've never learned, raising people from the dead, healing the sick, feeding the poor, traveling to all ends of the world, and in all ways being transformed from cowards who easily betrayed their Lord into saints who changed the world by serving Him even to their deaths?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or would feeding 5000 with a couple loafs of bread be enough for you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If those are too outdated for you, maybe you wouldn't mind hearing some stories of such things happening in modern times to people I know?

I'm talking about a very clear message. Something otherworldly, like a miracle beyond human proportion and human comprehension.

 

 

 

Well, that's basically forcing belief on someone. By doing that we wouldn't be making the choice to be with God- we'd simply see the miracle and be forced to believe in God. Where's the faith and trust in that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Astra, I don't see the Christian God as a changing being (though my version of Him does). The Christian God is the same no matter how we view Him, so once we come in direct contact with Him, personally that seems like the end, an infinite, yet unchanging, end. If we are dead, that would basically be going to Heaven, and living with and examining (as you have suggested) the same being in happyness for all of eternity. But if God were to come to earth, then we'd have already done what we seeked to do in death- to be with God. That is where the "life is pointless now" factor comes in. Once we meet Him in life, we'd just want to get our life over with and go back to Him.

 

If God wants us to believe in him so bad, then why can't he come here and prove to us hes real?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If God were to come to earth, live among us, spend years teaching us, demonstrate power over sickness, nature, the supernatural, and even over death, would that be sufficient?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Apparently not, because half the followers of your God believe Jesus's miracles were not real. You would know them as "Jews". They felt so strongly that they were fake, infact, that they tried him, found him guilty of faking miracles, and killed him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus isn't even the first to "do" these things. I've stated here before that Jesus' tale was the exact same as a much, much older story about the Hindu's Goddess "Shiva", who had a prophet named Krishna who did everything that Jesus did. Died, was ressurected, performed miracles, the works!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a list of other, much older deity's who've done the same thing Jesus has:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Asklepios

 

 

 

- Hercules

 

 

 

- Prometheus

 

 

 

- Dionysos

 

 

 

- Osiris

 

 

 

- Horus (Osiris's son)

 

 

 

- Mithra

 

 

 

- Krishna, of course.

 

 

 

- Buddha

 

 

 

- Apollonius of Tyana

 

 

 

- Zarathustra

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But of course, all of these much earlier deity's are seen as "fake" and "copies", somehow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you know why? I do. It's because people were forced, hudreds of years ago, to believe in Jesus. They were not asked. They did not just do it willingly because they believed. They either did it, or they were killed. That is why it's the most popular religion on this Earth. It isn't because it's the best, and it isn't necessarily because it's the truth, either.

Such as dying, raising Himself back up to life, appearing to hundreds of people, showing the wounds from His death, and ascending to heaven?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or something such as His followers speaking in languages they've never learned, raising people from the dead, healing the sick, feeding the poor, traveling to all ends of the world, and in all ways being transformed from cowards who easily betrayed their Lord into saints who changed the world by serving Him even to their deaths?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or would feeding 5000 with a couple loafs of bread be enough for you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If those are too outdated for you, maybe you wouldn't mind hearing some stories of such things happening in modern times to people I know?

 

 

 

The Bible is figurative language. A few loafs of bread and a little fish didn't actually feed 5,000 people; it's just a story with a meaning behind it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Same goes for the other stuff :-$ . Water wasn't turned to wine, Lazarus wasn't actually raised from the dead; they're just stories with a meaning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the bolded part, the whole world was basically the Meditteranean (sp?) area at the time lol. Not that far...