Pault you have taken this completely off the point. The point you are responding to is this: Can something both exist and not exist at the same time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right, in a very simplified explanation of my thesis, god exists because reality exists only as a model of the world, in our minds, based upon our senses and other factors (social pressures, belief, drugs, natural chemical changes in the brain, etc.). Therefore having faith in god causes him to exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because gods existence depends on who is thinking about him and believing in him (or not), I can safely say that god exists and does not exist. All of my points have been in support of my position.

It still doesn't seem to explain how something can both exist and not exist at the same time in reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lets say that what you are saying is true. There is nothing in your reality that is both there and not there at the SAME TIME. That computer on your desk is not both existing and not.. exisitng at the same time. It is physicaly impossible and, hell, I'd venture to say its nearly mentaly impossible to concept the idea of something both being there and not being there at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because gods existence depends on who is thinking about him and believing in him (or not), I can safely say that god exists and does not exist. All of my points have been in support of my position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Acording to your position though their reality is their own "reality". That means everyone has a different version of reality and you can't compare realitys.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so yeah, I've repeated this a lot but:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Something can not exist and be non-existant at the same time, in the same reality.

i dont kare about religion. i think it causes fights

Something can not exist and be non-existant at the same time, in the same reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We all live in the same reality. We simply build unique models of this reality in our minds, based not only on our perceptions of reality from our physical senses, but from other factors such as societal pressures or faith in a higher being or the use of mind altering drugs. Because we are each living in our own model of reality, yet still existing and interacting with actual reality, which has no definable substance (is there a world if there is no mind to apply logic to it? of course not, everything is just matter floating around, mass is frozen energy, etc...). Consider for a second that you spend a huge amount of your mental resources simply logically parsing what you see, hear, touch, smell, and feel at any given moment. You do not think about all the process your brain must go through to achieve this understanding of self. And yet, by meditating or using certain substances you can easily reveal the workings of this unseen mechanism, and train your minds eye upon it, showing you how to see music, or hear coors. There is no reality without a mind to apply logic to it, and therefore everyone creates their own reality. Yet, in the same token, we all live in the same ineffable "Real" space. Anyone can make god real, by believing. Therefore god exists, and he does not exists. He is a girl, and her name is eros.

Make no mistake, my Christian friends. You won't be able to point fingers at Muslim's and say "Terrorists!" for very long, for the leaders of your own religion are breeding their own little war-mongers in the name of the love of Jesus. Give it 10...Maybe 15 years, tops, and you'll start seeing the nifty little backlash from Christian groups. I don't know how they could convince someone to commit suicide, being that it's against their religion, but I do recall every child in the film "Jesus Camp" raising his hand and cheering when asked "Who would die for Jesus?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

New rule - If you're going to kill yourself, please do it with your followers close to you. Just get it over with so the rest of us can not worry about walking into a resturaunt and being torn to peices by shrapnel. That goes for Muslim's and Christian's both. :P

Now my question is this, if using certain substances permanently changes your perception of reality, haven't you essentially changed reality itself?

 

 

 

Pault, I have a question in response to your question. If a person is tripping on drugs, walks out in the street in front of a bus but all they see is a giant gentle furry pink elephant coming to hug them instead of a bus and then that bus runs them over splattering their brains all over the windshield. What is the reality of their situation? Were they correct that a giant gentle furry pink elephant came to hug them or was it really just a bus about to make them road kill the entire time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perception: I am about to get a wonderful hug

 

 

 

Reality: A bus is about to kill you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lesson: Don't do drugs. :P

 

Something can not exist and be non-existant at the same time, in the same reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We all live in the same reality. We simply build unique models of this reality in our minds, based not only on our perceptions of reality from our physical senses, but from other factors such as societal pressures or faith in a higher being or the use of mind altering drugs. Because we are each living in our own model of reality, yet still existing and interacting with actual reality, which has no definable substance (is there a world if there is no mind to apply logic to it? of course not, everything is just matter floating around, mass is frozen energy, etc...). Consider for a second that you spend a huge amount of your mental resources simply logically parsing what you see, hear, touch, smell, and feel at any given moment. You do not think about all the process your brain must go through to achieve this understanding of self. And yet, by meditating or using certain substances you can easily reveal the workings of this unseen mechanism, and train your minds eye upon it, showing you how to see music, or hear coors. There is no reality without a mind to apply logic to it, and therefore everyone creates their own reality. Yet, in the same token, we all live in the same ineffable "Real" space. Anyone can make god real, by believing. Therefore god exists, and he does not exists. He is a girl, and her name is eros.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I generally agree with you on most accounts there pault, we all have a unique perception of the world and hence we all put our own spin on the one objective reality in which we all co-exist. In other words, to some people a god exists, to others he dosen't. And to some peole god is a leperchaun on thier shoulder. In my opinion reality and existance is highly subjective, yet if it is indeed objective, it is highly warped by perception. So in my view something can both exist and not exist at the same time. For example, my mate Frank exists to me, his family, his friends and anyone who has ever seen him or had some perception of him. Seeing as Frank is never on the news and lives a fairly secluded life, the pm John Howard has no perception of Frank's existance and hence, to Johnny boy, old mate Frank does not exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The lesson here, I suppose, is that there is not one true definition of existance, it varies with the perception of the individual who makes the definition. But, of course, your definition and views on existance could be different. :?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ouch. Metaphysics FTL. #-o :P

 

Now my question is this, if using certain substances permanently changes your perception of reality, haven't you essentially changed reality itself?

 

 

 

Pault, I have a question in response to your question. If a person is tripping on drugs, walks out in the street in front of a bus but all they see is a giant gentle furry pink elephant coming to hug them instead of a bus and then that bus runs them over splattering their brains all over the windshield. What is the reality of their situation? Were they correct that a giant gentle furry pink elephant came to hug them or was it really just a bus about to make them road kill the entire time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perception: I am about to get a wonderful hug

 

 

 

Reality: A bus is about to kill you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lesson: Don't do drugs. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Noticed how I said permanent, and not temporary. I was not referring to the actual inebriation that takes place during the use of the drug, but to the profound and life long effects of responsibly using powerful psychadelics such as lsd, salvia, magic mushrooms, etc... to open the mind and soothe the soul.

 

 

Now my question is this, if using certain substances permanently changes your perception of reality, haven't you essentially changed reality itself?

 

 

 

Pault, I have a question in response to your question. If a person is tripping on drugs, walks out in the street in front of a bus but all they see is a giant gentle furry pink elephant coming to hug them instead of a bus and then that bus runs them over splattering their brains all over the windshield. What is the reality of their situation? Were they correct that a giant gentle furry pink elephant came to hug them or was it really just a bus about to make them road kill the entire time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perception: I am about to get a wonderful hug

 

 

 

Reality: A bus is about to kill you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lesson: Don't do drugs. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Noticed how I said permanent, and not temporary. I was not referring to the actual inebriation that takes place during the use of the drug, but to the profound and life long effects of responsibly using powerful psychadelics such as lsd, salvia, magic mushrooms, etc... to open the mind and soothe the soul.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok... Have you been doing these drugs?

Noticed how I said permanent, and not temporary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And to this I refer you back to my post that was ignored earlier.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will repost it for you to respond to since it directly applies to a permanent situation vs. a temporary drug trip.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know someone who has schizophrenia. He believes Britney Spears came to Wendy's when he was eating there and made him move to the other side of the resteraunt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then he followed that story up saying he also saw Pamela Anderson there one time. BTW this Wendy's isn't anywhere close to a place stars would be visiting. (he can't get out much so he incorporates what he sees on television into his real life)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He truly believes this happened... It didn't. It is not true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You could also use my drug and pink furry elephant example on a person that has some kind of mental disorder that is a permanent condition. Does that change the truth of the situation? No. All it means is they will permanently keep their flawed perception of reality because their brain is too damaged to function properly.

 

 

 

All your argument applies to is the expectation of something existing. Not the actuality of something existing. Putting a pen to paper doesn't bring anything into existence - only the thought of something existing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If nobody wrote about God, then it doesn't change the fact that God might still be somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you ask a nonsensical question, do you expect a sensible answer in return? It doesn't make sense to be able to answer if a God exists or not since it is impossible to evaluate God's existence. There is no way that you can disprove that we did in fact imagine god into existence since the position is just as nonsensical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even if you could evaluate God's existence, it doesn't change the fact that reality is subjective; there is no way to objectively determine whether something exists or not. There are many things which exist for one population, which don't for another and jumping up and down isn't going to change anyone's mind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So before we knew about other galaxies, they didn't exist? The second we saw another galaxy was the second it came into existence? Maybe in our minds, but not in actuality. Unless you're a pantheist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, I'm an Anti-Realist; a perfectly defendable position to take. Ever heard about it, your fancy philosophy transcript would've shed some light on it. Can you prove our galaxy was here before we saw it? Of course not, so why are you so adamant in defending that position. It's a similar reason why I don't think electrons exist as a physical entity; sure it might be a useful model but it still doesn't validate its existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All it means is they will permanently keep their flawed perception of reality because their brain is too damaged to function properly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And what if everyone's brains are too damaged to function properly; what then?

 

Something can not exist and be non-existant at the same time, in the same reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We all live in the same reality. We simply build unique models of this reality in our minds, based not only on our perceptions of reality from our physical senses, but from other factors such as societal pressures or faith in a higher being or the use of mind altering drugs. Because we are each living in our own model of reality, yet still existing and interacting with actual reality, which has no definable substance (is there a world if there is no mind to apply logic to it? of course not, everything is just matter floating around, mass is frozen energy, etc...). Consider for a second that you spend a huge amount of your mental resources simply logically parsing what you see, hear, touch, smell, and feel at any given moment. You do not think about all the process your brain must go through to achieve this understanding of self. And yet, by meditating or using certain substances you can easily reveal the workings of this unseen mechanism, and train your minds eye upon it, showing you how to see music, or hear coors. There is no reality without a mind to apply logic to it, and therefore everyone creates their own reality. Yet, in the same token, we all live in the same ineffable "Real" space. Anyone can make god real, by believing. Therefore god exists, and he does not exists. He is a girl, and her name is eros.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What you are describing then, is that God can be different for everyone because it is only based on their reality. All you are doing, though, is stating that "God exists and he does not exist." It's still not possible just because you state it. You are giving no account for how both something can exist and not exist, you are merely stating it over and over. Even if God exists for me, and does not exist for you, those are still different instance, and logically acceptable. You have yet to prove how something can exist and not exist at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you ask a nonsensical question, do you expect a sensible answer in return? It doesn't make sense to be able to answer if a God exists or not since it is impossible to evaluate God's existence. There is no way that you can disprove that we did in fact imagine god into existence since the position is just as nonsensical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If by writing about what God did in the past, before he existed, because it happened before we imagined him, you are assuming God both existed and did not exist at the exact same time. This is impossible. Either what was written is false, or God existed before he was thought up.

 

 

 

And what if everyone's brains are too damaged to function properly; what then?

 

 

 

That situation is what they call a ward at a mental hospital. We aren't in one. Go ask someone that works at a mental hospital the answer to this question. They could give you a better answer than I could.

Make no mistake, my Christian friends. You won't be able to point fingers at Muslim's and say "Terrorists!" for very long, for the leaders of your own religion are breeding their own little war-mongers in the name of the love of Jesus. Give it 10...Maybe 15 years, tops, and you'll start seeing the nifty little backlash from Christian groups. I don't know how they could convince someone to commit suicide, being that it's against their religion, but I do recall every child in the film "Jesus Camp" raising his hand and cheering when asked "Who would die for Jesus?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

New rule - If you're going to kill yourself, please do it with your followers close to you. Just get it over with so the rest of us can not worry about walking into a resturaunt and being torn to peices by shrapnel. That goes for Muslim's and Christian's both. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can't really remember the last time I've ever called an Islamic person a terrorist. That's a really intolerant and racist thing for you to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I would die for Jesus. Of course, that means if someone put a gun to my head and asked me what I believed in, that's what I would say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you are not funny. Laughing about suicide bombers is sick.

 

Make no mistake, my Christian friends. You won't be able to point fingers at Muslim's and say "Terrorists!" for very long, for the leaders of your own religion are breeding their own little war-mongers in the name of the love of Jesus. Give it 10...Maybe 15 years, tops, and you'll start seeing the nifty little backlash from Christian groups. I don't know how they could convince someone to commit suicide, being that it's against their religion, but I do recall every child in the film "Jesus Camp" raising his hand and cheering when asked "Who would die for Jesus?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

New rule - If you're going to kill yourself, please do it with your followers close to you. Just get it over with so the rest of us can not worry about walking into a resturaunt and being torn to peices by shrapnel. That goes for Muslim's and Christian's both. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can't really remember the last time I've ever called an Islamic person a terrorist. That's a really intolerant and racist thing for you to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I would die for Jesus. Of course, that means if someone put a gun to my head and asked me what I believed in, that's what I would say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you are not funny. Laughing about suicide bombers is sick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice try, but you're not going to turn me into the "racist, intolerant" person here just because I said that some Christians call Islamic people terrorists at the drop of a hat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yes, I am hilarious. Suicide bombing is funny to me, and it should be to you. These people run into buildings and blow themselves up for the promise of Heaven. They are not rewarded. Even according to your own religion, you know that to be true. To me, that is hilarious. The stuff people will do because they believe so strongly in something that just doesn't exist. They waste their whole life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And why would you die for Jesus like that? If someone asked if you believe in Jesus, you're free to say "No." and then be forgiven 5 seconds after. Furthermore, do you really think Jesus is stupid? You must. If you jump off a cliff with suicidal hopes in your heart, but say "Oops." as you're falling, do you trick Jesus into thinking it was an accident? Same applies here. If you believe in Jesus in your heart, but say "No.", you shouldn't be fooling him, you're only fooling the person who asked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or do you take the whole "Deny me before man and I will deny you before my father." thing way too seriously? Probably. Do you honestly think Jesus would send a life-time believer to Hell just because that person wanted to not be shot in the head? Some awesomely righteous God you have there.

 

 

 

What you are describing then, is that God can be different for everyone because it is only based on their reality. All you are doing, though, is stating that "God exists and he does not exist." It's still not possible just because you state it. You are giving no account for how both something can exist and not exist, you are merely stating it over and over. Even if God exists for me, and does not exist for you, those are still different instance, and logically acceptable. You have yet to prove how something can exist and not exist at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no reality without a mind to apply logic to it, and therefore everyone creates their own reality. Yet, in the same token, we all live in the same ineffable "Real" space. Because we are each living in our own model of reality, yet still existing and interacting with actual reality, which has no definable substance (is there a world if there is no mind to apply logic to it? of course not, everything is just matter floating around, mass is frozen energy, etc...). Anyone can make god real, by believing. Therefore god exists, and he does not exists. He is a girl, and her name is eros.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My argument is essentially that there is a difference between reality, and the model of reality that we create in our minds and interact with. Because of this important gap (wherein things like societal pressures, faith, drugs, etc... which define our reality, come in) there is no single universal reality. We all live in vastly different worlds, defined by an infinite multitude of factors. The existence of god depends on only one thing, faith. And because some people believe and some don't, god exists, and he doesn't exist.

If I don't believe you exist pault what does that mean?

Tigra...wow. You don't understand religion at all. I would much rather die than deny God. You see, as a Christian I do not fear death. If you can laugh at people murdering others, you will not be laughing when you spend the last years of your life fleeing death like a wounded animal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I still hold face that you are pervertedly sick if you laugh at murder. Such as if I knew you, I would get you psychiatric help.

 

 

 

 

What you are describing then, is that God can be different for everyone because it is only based on their reality. All you are doing, though, is stating that "God exists and he does not exist." It's still not possible just because you state it. You are giving no account for how both something can exist and not exist, you are merely stating it over and over. Even if God exists for me, and does not exist for you, those are still different instance, and logically acceptable. You have yet to prove how something can exist and not exist at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no reality without a mind to apply logic to it, and therefore everyone creates their own reality. Yet, in the same token, we all live in the same ineffable "Real" space. Because we are each living in our own model of reality, yet still existing and interacting with actual reality, which has no definable substance (is there a world if there is no mind to apply logic to it? of course not, everything is just matter floating around, mass is frozen energy, etc...). Anyone can make god real, by believing. Therefore god exists, and he does not exists. He is a girl, and her name is eros.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My argument is essentially that there is a difference between reality, and the model of reality that we create in our minds and interact with. Because of this important gap (wherein things like societal pressures, faith, drugs, etc... which define our reality, come in) there is no single universal reality. We all live in vastly different worlds, defined by an infinite multitude of factors. The existence of god depends on only one thing, faith. And because some people believe and some don't, god exists, and he doesn't exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aaand somebody's been smoking too much dope lately. D'oh!......P

 

 

 

Seriously, though, the only people I've ever heard espouse that idea are those who also smoke dope. Sit down and compare notes with someone who hasn't sometime. We all live in the same reality, though some have differing perceptions of it.

If I don't believe you exist pault what does that mean?

 

 

 

Then on your own reality he doesn't, but in my reality (and probably everyone elses reality, at least those who know him), he does.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Though you believe he exists, so w/e :P .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aaand somebody's been smoking too much dope lately. D'oh!......P

 

 

 

Seriously, though, the only people I've ever heard espouse that idea are those who also smoke dope. Sit down and compare notes with someone who hasn't sometime. We all live in the same reality, though some have differing perceptions of it.

 

 

 

For all I know I'm the only one in this reality, and this world is fake and simply built for me to appear like a real world. For all I know, none of you think at all, you just act in the way my reality says your supposed to act.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could be all alone. Same goes for you :ohnoes: .

Seriously, though, the only people I've ever heard espouse that idea are those who also smoke dope.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Read more books?

Tigra...wow. You don't understand religion at all. I would much rather die than deny God. You see, as a Christian I do not fear death. If you can laugh at people murdering others, you will not be laughing when you spend the last years of your life fleeing death like a wounded animal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I still hold face that you are pervertedly sick if you laugh at murder. Such as if I knew you, I would get you psychiatric help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It came across to me that he was laughing at the fact that suicide bombers gave up thier lives for a fallacy. I don't think he was laughing at the fact that they murder people, that would be sick.

Suicide isn't really funny either. Death is nothing really to laugh at.

Death is nothing really to laugh at.

 

 

 

Why, because you've been taught that it's taboo? Read up on the Darwin awards dude :P .

My argument is essentially that there is a difference between reality, and the model of reality that we create in our minds and interact with. Because of this important gap (wherein things like societal pressures, faith, drugs, etc... which define our reality, come in) there is no single universal reality. We all live in vastly different worlds, defined by an infinite multitude of factors. The existence of god depends on only one thing, faith. And because some people believe and some don't, god exists, and he doesn't exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand that point entirely. However, what you are saying is that for this reality, God exists. and for an entirely different reality, God does not exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God does not exist and not exist at the same time because you are not talking about the same realities.