January 31, 200719 yr The Bible wasn't the cause of Gods existance if he does exist. The Bible was the cause of a lot people to beleive he exists. If the Bible didn't exist then God can exist because the bible did not create God. If it did then that would save a lot of questions about the logic of God being an uncaused cause. (1)Everything has a cause. (2)The Universe must be caused by something. (3)God created or caused the universe. Which the premise undermines the conclusion. I guess you could counter that with God being spiritual therefore not needing cause - which is faith. Or that infinite regress' are impossible which again doesn't neccessarily lead to a God. Actually, the principles of formal logical, specifically the principle of causality states that all things in the physical world have a cause. The principles of logic do not make that statement about things that might or might not exist outside of the physical world. It is not a counter to your argument because your argument itself is fallacious. You are using logical principles that only pertain to the physical world for events or beings that exist (or do not exist) outside the physical world. I said my argument could be countered by that. However we are assuming non-material things do not need causes. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed.
January 31, 200719 yr If something exists as more than one thing, it still exists. Plural existence (the holy spirit and jesus being the same entity, for example) does prove the self-contradiction and simultaneous existence and non-existence of reality (and objects and concepts within it), insofar as the concept illustrates the human dillemma (later expressed as existentialism) that I myself have already explained; it being the gap between the ability of human beings to understand what senses define their privately created sentient reality and how many actually affect their consciousness. The best representation of this dilemma comes from Plato's Cave. If a man lives his entire life in a cave, with only a tiny pinhole of light to flesh out his small reality, if ever a cave wall is broken down and he experiences the full light and joy of life, it will be as if he has broken down the gate of heaven and ran inside. It still does not show that something exists and simultaneously does not exist. The allegory of the cave, for instance, still depends on the existence of reality outside of the cave. Whether or not the person in the cave ever experiences it, and even if his perception of reality is hindered, whatever is outside of the cave still exists. This is especially true by Plato's insistence that the Forms are not mere conceptual ideas, but that they actually do exist. Whether or not someone knows about the Forms, the Forms still exist. You have still failed to explain how something can exist and not exist simultaneously. I understand that there are beliefs that reality is dependent on perception, but even then, something in that reality either exists or it does not exist. I said my argument could be countered by that. However we are assuming non-material things do not need causes. I know you did. Forgive me, I do not understand the point you are trying to make.
January 31, 200719 yr If we apply the logics of the world (that God made if he exists) then this would support the argument i made earlier. However i also said that we may not apply these things too God as he is not a material being. If we do that we are assuming he isn't logical and is defying his own rules. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed.
January 31, 200719 yr I understand that there are beliefs that reality is dependent on perception, but even then, something in that reality either exists or it does not exist. I have established that reality is the representation of a collection of inputs from the five senses and other sources (such as societal pressures, chemical imbalances in the brain, etc..) and that all of our life experience takes place in this representation and not within the "Actual" reality, insofar as we do not have a direct connection with the physical world without filters and extreme variation from individual to individual. Therefore, the existence or nonexistence of anything is entirely up to whether we choose to believe in it or not, whether we want it to exist, whether we care, etc... To experience a breakdown of the logical functioning of the brain, I recommend everyone tries smoking salvia extract, which will completely open your mind. Salvia affects the Kappa opiate receptor in the brain, and is more powerful than acid. Having done both, I can vouch for that quality of the extract, as well as its spiritual benifit. Salvia extract is legal, I recommend buying 20x from iamshaman.com and trying it yourself for a breakdown of what it means to be a sentient being.
January 31, 200719 yr If we apply the logics of the world (that God made if he exists) then this would support the argument i made earlier. However i also said that we may not apply these things too God as he is not a material being. If we do that we are assuming he isn't logical and is defying his own rules. No, you are confusing the logics of the world and the physics of the world. Logic allows you to make predictions and declarations about the world by connecting the physics of the world together. Logic, however, would remain the same if applied to another set of physical laws. If the physical universe, for instance, had a force that was opposite of gravity, you could still use logic to make statements about the universe. The statements themselves change because the physical boundaries of the universe are different, but Logic itself remains the same. I have established that reality is the representation of a collection of inputs from the five senses and other sources (such as societal pressures, chemical imbalances in the brain, etc..) and that all of our life experience takes place in this representation and not within the "Actual" reality, insofar as we do not have a direct connection with the physical world without the filters of simian consciousness. Therefore, the existence or nonexistence of anything is entirely up to whether we choose to believe in it or not, whether we want it to exist, whether we care, etc... Yes, and I do not refute that at all. However, you are still saying the existence or non-existence because they cannot happen at the same time. If you believe something exists, it cannot NOT exist by the very nature of the meaning of existence. It might be entirely up to your perception of reality as to whether or not it exists, but it still cannot exist and not exist at the same time.
January 31, 200719 yr Locke, surely you're not trying to apply the laws of the "creator's" universe to the "creator" itself? Forgive me if i'm misunderstanding. "Da mihi castitatem et continentam, sed noli modo"
January 31, 200719 yr Locke, surely you're not trying to apply the laws of the "creator's" universe to the "creator" itself? Forgive me if i'm misunderstanding. It depends on what you consider the laws of the creator's universe. Does "good" exist? It is the Christian belief that God is good, therefore, applying the idea of "good" to him. Yet, the idea of "good" exists in the universe as well. In the same way that Christians might believe that God is good, I posit that if God exists, it appears that He is "logic."
January 31, 200719 yr If we apply the logics of the world (that God made if he exists) then this would support the argument i made earlier. However i also said that we may not apply these things too God as he is not a material being. If we do that we are assuming he isn't logical and is defying his own rules. No, you are confusing the logics of the world and the physics of the world. Logic allows you to make predictions and declarations about the world by connecting the physics of the world together. Logic, however, would remain the same if applied to another set of physical laws. If the physical universe, for instance, had a force that was opposite of gravity, you could still use logic to make statements about the universe. The statements themselves change because the physical boundaries of the universe are different, but Logic itself remains the same. I thought if God existed then he would have created logic. Therefore I am making a prediction about God and the laws he created. Such as no uncaused cause. Therefore his existance would go against the logic he created. Logic doesn't have to apply just to the physical world it can apply to our thought and objects that do not exist. With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed.
January 31, 200719 yr Locke, you have officially twisted yourself into a semantical pretzel. Reality exists only inside our own minds; we each have a working model of the universe inside of our brains. Unless you are proposing that the only influences on this model are the five physical senses, then you must admit that reality and non reality are relative concepts at best. Which brings me to the point which you failed to respond to previously, that drugs can allow anyones perception of reality, no matter how closeminded, to be radically expanded and changed.
January 31, 200719 yr that drugs can allow anyones perception of reality You just agreed with Locke. Their perception changes. Their reality does not.
January 31, 200719 yr You just agreed with Locke. Their perception changes. Their reality does not. Obviously drugs don't change reality. They change your perception of reality. My point is that none of us ever experience reality, or know what it is. We are already viewing it through many filters, through a strange lense made up of social pressures, chemical changes in the brain, and of course primate logic. To understand this point of view you must view sentient thought as what it truly is: an adaptation of monkeys to allow them to absorb sunlight faster. Because we only experience reality within our own model of reality inside each of our minds, using drugs can alter your perception of reality (and hence reality) forever. For example, taking LSD has a profound and lifechanging effect on almost everyone people who take it. The altering of the logic functioning of the brain can be achieved by using acid or other drugs such as salvia. Now my question is this, if using certain substances permanently changes your perception of reality, haven't you essentially changed reality itself? When I took acid for the first time I drank alot of sobe energy drinks. Now whenever I drink them I feel amazingly stimulated, happy, and aware of my surroundings. Colors become more distinct and bright, I become alert and am able to learn things faster. This is an example of something being existent and non-existent at the same time; there is actually no psychadellic effect of drinking sobe energy drinks, but I get one all the same. Why? Because my brain has decided that's the way it's going to be and that's the way it is. Just like millions and millions of Christians are happier when they pray more or confess more.
February 1, 200719 yr Now my question is this, if using certain substances permanently changes your perception of reality, haven't you essentially changed reality itself? When I took acid for the first time I drank alot of sobe energy drinks. Now whenever I drink them I feel amazingly stimulated, happy, and aware of my surroundings. Colors become more distinct and bright, I become alert and am able to learn things faster. This is an example of something being existent and non-existent at the same time; there is actually no psychadellic effect of drinking sobe energy drinks, but I get one all the same. Why? Because my brain has decided that's the way it's going to be and that's the way it is. Just like millions and millions of Christians are happier when they pray more or confess more. You only changed your perception of reality though. If there was another person in that room with you those colors would not have become more distinct, more bright and would not be able to learn things faster just because you were on acid. It was only what you thought reality is. I see what you are trying to say, however, that reality is to ourselves and ourselves alone. I don't really have anything to say to that but it largly depends on what you belive.
February 1, 200719 yr If we apply the logics of the world (that God made if he exists) then this would support the argument i made earlier. However i also said that we may not apply these things too God as he is not a material being. If we do that we are assuming he isn't logical and is defying his own rules. No, you are confusing the logics of the world and the physics of the world. Logic allows you to make predictions and declarations about the world by connecting the physics of the world together. Logic, however, would remain the same if applied to another set of physical laws. If the physical universe, for instance, had a force that was opposite of gravity, you could still use logic to make statements about the universe. The statements themselves change because the physical boundaries of the universe are different, but Logic itself remains the same. I thought if God existed then he would have created logic. Therefore I am making a prediction about God and the laws he created. Such as no uncaused cause. Therefore his existance would go against the logic he created. Logic doesn't have to apply just to the physical world it can apply to our thought and objects that do not exist. What if, somehow, time throughout the universes is an infinite loop, with no beginning and no ending? (And just for you Sat) like the Ouroborus, which appears on the homunculi in Fullmetal? :P Therefore, God would not have to be created, for It would, as so many annoying people I know have said, "have been and will always be." Besides, if other universes existed, there could be other laws for a God. Each universe supposedly could have different laws, so as Sat has argued, maybe in some other universe or possible even on a different level of this one God could make a spherical cube. Not saying I believe in God (or at least the kind most people describe- from what I've read I know there's at least something our there), but it's plausible. Basically, we know so little, that it's hard for us to come anywhere close to understanding a God, or what It can do, let alone what It is. It's possible that God even defeats human logic. Also Sat, don't take a humans view of God, disprove it, and say that for that reason God does not exist. You seem to do that a lot :? . [if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.] Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.
February 1, 200719 yr ah, just the reason why i stick to pastafarianism 8-) Click for mah Blog!- I'm not sure why you would though because i never update it Achieved 99 Thieving 3/10/07-992nd to it
February 1, 200719 yr How do YOU think Christians/other religions are being treated? Bad. This is almost as good as your post in the marijuana thread...
February 1, 200719 yr How do YOU think Christians/other religions are being treated? Bad. Proof? ah, just the reason why i stick to pastafarianism Flying spaghetti monster ftw.
February 1, 200719 yr I see what you are trying to say, however, that reality is to ourselves and ourselves alone. I don't really have anything to say to that but it largly depends on what you belive. Right, in a very simplified explanation of my thesis, god exists because reality exists only as a model of the world, in our minds, based upon our senses and other factors (social pressures, belief, drugs, natural chemical changes in the brain, etc.). Therefore having faith in god causes him to exist.
February 1, 200719 yr I thought if God existed then he would have created logic. Therefore I am making a prediction about God and the laws he created. Such as no uncaused cause. Therefore his existance would go against the logic he created. Logic doesn't have to apply just to the physical world it can apply to our thought and objects that do not exist. It is fine for you to assume logic is his creation, there really is no way to no anyway. But the point you are making is that through logic, we can deduce that an uncaused cause cannot happen. However, my point is that you are applying logic to the physical universe and its laws and it is my firm belief that logic transcends the physical world. You are right. In this physical universe, an uncaused cause cannot happen. Anything else is merely speculation on our part. Locke, you have officially twisted yourself into a semantical pretzel. Reality exists only inside our own minds; we each have a working model of the universe inside of our brains. Unless you are proposing that the only influences on this model are the five physical senses, then you must admit that reality and non reality are relative concepts at best. Which brings me to the point which you failed to respond to previously, that drugs can allow anyones perception of reality, no matter how closeminded, to be radically expanded and changed. Pault you have taken this completely off the point. The point you are responding to is this: Can something both exist and not exist at the same time? You have still failed to respond to this. None of your examples, which include plural existence and one's perception of reality being reality itself, even address the issue of it being impossible to both exist and not exist at the same time. I'm not responding to the point about drugs because 1) You admit it is only your perception of reality, not reality itself that is changed and 2) That has nothing to do with whether or not existence and non-existence can happen simultaneously. The only point I am making is that something cannot exist and not exist at the same time. By the definition of existence, it is impossible for it to happen.
February 1, 200719 yr How do YOU think Christians/other religions are being treated? Bad. Proof? I don't need proof. It's all around you. Spray painted onto buildings. On the news. On websites. Written in chalk on the side of a church. "GOD SUCKS BURN IN HELL"
February 1, 200719 yr How do YOU think Christians/other religions are being treated? Bad. Proof? I don't need proof. It's all around you. Spray painted onto buildings. On the news. On websites. Written in chalk on the side of a church. "GOD SUCKS BURN IN HELL" That's nothing compared to how Christians treat others sometimes. ;) The popularity of any given religion today depends on the victories of the wars they fought in the past. - Me!
February 1, 200719 yr How do YOU think Christians/other religions are being treated? Bad. Proof? I don't need proof. It's all around you. Spray painted onto buildings. On the news. On websites. Written in chalk on the side of a church. "GOD SUCKS BURN IN HELL" That's nothing compared to how Christians treat others sometimes. ;) Hmmm true but we aren't the only ones *cough*Terrorists*cough*
February 1, 200719 yr How do YOU think Christians/other religions are being treated? Bad. Proof? I don't need proof. It's all around you. Spray painted onto buildings. On the news. On websites. Written in chalk on the side of a church. "GOD SUCKS BURN IN HELL" That's nothing compared to how Christians treat others sometimes. ;) Yup, I could bring up millions of quotes of Christians saying that we are all going to go to he.ll because we doubt the existance of god. ~^v^~Ex-Leader of the Divine Flames of Redemption~^v^~
February 1, 200719 yr How do YOU think Christians/other religions are being treated? Bad. Proof? I don't need proof. It's all around you. Spray painted onto buildings. On the news. On websites. Written in chalk on the side of a church. "GOD SUCKS BURN IN HELL" That's nothing compared to how Christians treat others sometimes. ;) Hmmm true but we aren't the only ones *cough*Terrorists*cough* Abortion clinic bombing and the like FTW?
February 1, 200719 yr How do YOU think Christians/other religions are being treated? Bad. Proof? I don't need proof. It's all around you. Spray painted onto buildings. On the news. On websites. Written in chalk on the side of a church. "GOD SUCKS BURN IN HELL" That's nothing compared to how Christians treat others sometimes. ;) Hmmm true but we aren't the only ones *cough*Terrorists*cough* Terrorists often built upon religion.
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