why are u even bothering to debate the existance of god? this is a topic about whether christians r pursecuted - and we surely are on this board.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GOOD Christians are not persecuted at all. Anywhere. They practice their faith and don't tell others they're going to perish in enteral hell-fire for not doing that same. They do right by what the Bible says and stick to it, unswaying. They are good people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People like you, who tell people they're going to Hell, are not good people. You're not good Christians. You have zero right to tell me where I'm going. Look it up it your precious book. No really, just look! It says only God can judge me. Are you God? No, I'm seriously asking, because you seem to think he talks to you, so you're either completely skitzo, or you're God. Should I pity you as you pity me, or should I bow? Just wondering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But you know me. I'm very Jesus-like. I forgive you. Jesus will too. Afterall, the Bible does say that the only unforgivable sin is denying the exsistence of the Holy Spirit. So obviously, my seat in Hell isn't as solid as you thought.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅTruly I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they say, ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹ÃâHe has an unclean spiritÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

Well actually Christians may define 'good Christians' as those that go around informing people that nonChristians go to hell when they die. They call this 'witnessing.' Also there's a verse in the Bible telling them to do this. It's called 'the Great Commission.' So if they were a 'good Christian' wouldn't they follow through with this verse urging them to do this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However they can take it too far if they go around forcing people to convert, yelling at them if they don't cooperate, etc. This is even viewed as a disgrace toward other Christians when some person misrepresents them to the world like this. Then the Atheists like to stereotype Christians.

 

why are u even bothering to debate the existance of god? this is a topic about whether christians r pursecuted - and we surely are on this board.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GOOD Christians are not persecuted at all. Anywhere. They practice their faith and don't tell others they're going to perish in enteral hell-fire for not doing that same. They do right by what the Bible says and stick to it, unswaying. They are good people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People like you, who tell people they're going to Hell, are not good people. You're not good Christians. You have zero right to tell me where I'm going. Look it up it your precious book. No really, just look! It says only God can judge me. Are you God? No, I'm seriously asking, because you seem to think he talks to you, so you're either completely skitzo, or you're God. Should I pity you as you pity me, or should I bow? Just wondering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But you know me. I'm very Jesus-like. I forgive you. Jesus will too. Afterall, the Bible does say that the only unforgivable sin is denying the exsistence of the Holy Spirit. So obviously, my seat in Hell isn't as solid as you thought.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅTruly I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they say, ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹ÃâHe has an unclean spiritÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

 

 

 

I ponder...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If humans were not intelligent enough to write, would God still 'exsist'?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not even close to irrelevance...If it were never written, does God still exist? Does he? If it was never written to be passed on from person to person, does he still exist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems irrelevant to you because you have this cloud around you that disallows you from asking weither or not God actually exists. You've been raised to believe, nay, to know that he does. But if the Bible was never written, does God still exist? That's a pretty good question, actually. You just can't answer it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think your brain just can't comprehend how putting a pen to paper is irrelevant to a transcendent being existing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like seriously; someone writes "God did this", and all of a sudden God exists? Give me a break. Just because someone has the idea of God it doesn't mean that God exists and just because someone doesn't have the idea of God it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. I honestly can't believe you don't understand how thought is irrelevant to existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I can't believe you still don't get it...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God does nothing today. Nothing. Not a thing! People SAY he does stuff for them because they have faith in him, and then something good happens. That isn't necessarily God doing something, it's just something happening. God's exsistence proven? Hardly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the Bible was NEVER written, God would not exist. How could he? The existence of something is based 100% on weither or not people can see it and know about it. That's where God's get their power.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a God. His name is Oogle Monkey. He's an Oogle Monkey and rules over the kingdom of Gonka. I have never, before this moment, written about Oogle Monkey. I believe in him fully now that I have written about him. He's real to me. I have a picture of him in my mind and I imagine the things he can do. And let me tell you, he can do great things. Like backflips. But, before I wrote about him, he was just an idea in my head that didn't exist. Noone knew about him. Not even me. I just MADE him exist to myself and others. Now he exists to me because I made him real, and trust me, if I wrote a book promising rewards and punishments for not believing in him...Others would follow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You will, of course, think that's the dumbest thing you've ever heard, because you cannot comprehend God NOT existing. The Bible says he's always existed, and you believe the Bible is his word, therefore you just can't think that way. You're just not capable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it is Philosophy that goes over your head. I do not blame you.

When people do something, its usually for a purpose. Power, Money.. something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't believe the people wrote the Bible were fakes who just wanted to entertain the thoughts of millions. After all.. what you wrote was 100% cartoonish and silly.. anyone can see that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the Bible, I do not see that. They literally try to explain to the reader how things happened.. instead of playing it off as a "get rich quick Jesus Scam!".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People have died for Christ instead of choosing to live. They were simpley asked "Denounce him and live or do not and die". They chose death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, why would people choose to die for something fake? We have proof that Jesus Existed and his ways were recorded in the Bible. He was born just like the rest of us.. and one day he just got up and said.. "i'm gonna go die for God and be 100% perfect.."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is more to it than you are seeing. You should sit and think and ask yourself why would someone go to extreeme conditions for God if it was all vain anyway?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

I do wonder why Athiests do not believe in God. Is it because the evidence objects to God's existance?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then what will they do when evidence shows he does exist? Bow down and worship him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. Not in the submissive sense though; more like me and god would be mates and go out to the pub on fridays and I could say 'god's a top bloke, lets have him over for a barbie on the weekend.'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't know what I'm talking about? Niether do I because I would have no idea what I'd do if I saw god.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll always go with the evidence. I'm not even an atheist becuase I won't openly deny anything. I will remain accountable for my beliefs in the possible existance of a god and they will change with science and evidence presented (provided it's compelling and shows an obvious revelation, unlike all of the 'evidence' some creationists try to give as infallible).

 

 

 

People have died for Christ instead of choosing to live. They were simpley asked "Denounce him and live or do not and die". They chose death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just like buddhists have burned themselves to death in protest of their rulers in the name of their religion, extreme muslims have martyred themselves in hopes of getting into paradise and, during crusades, rather suicide than convert, native americans have sacrificed their own sons to appease the gods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By looking at other countless other cultures and general history, that's nothing unique. Some people will do anything because they were taught it as an absolute truth, regardless where or when they lived. Christianity is just one amongst the masses.

 

I do wonder why Athiests do not believe in God. Is it because the evidence objects to God's existance?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then what will they do when evidence shows he does exist? Bow down and worship him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. Not in the submissive sense though; more like me and god would be mates and go out to the pub on fridays and I could say 'god's a top bloke, lets have him over for a barbie on the weekend.'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't know what I'm talking about? Niether do I because I would have no idea what I'd do if I saw god.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll always go with the evidence. I'm not even an atheist becuase I won't openly deny anything. I will remain accountable for my beliefs in the possible existance of a god and they will change with science and evidence presented (provided it's compelling and shows an obvious revelation, unlike all of the 'evidence' some creationists try to give as infallible).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*God appears before warri0r45 in his room*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

God: Believe in me now warri0r45?

 

 

 

*warri0r45 stands their shaking and nervous*

 

 

 

God: Speak.

 

 

 

warri0r45: Uhh... :uhh: What lvl is your Runescape Charater?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:XD: :mrgreen:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

I ponder...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If humans were not intelligent enough to write, would God still 'exsist'?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not even close to irrelevance...If it were never written, does God still exist? Does he? If it was never written to be passed on from person to person, does he still exist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems irrelevant to you because you have this cloud around you that disallows you from asking weither or not God actually exists. You've been raised to believe, nay, to know that he does. But if the Bible was never written, does God still exist? That's a pretty good question, actually. You just can't answer it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And Barihawk, that wasn't flaming of spelling. That was me actually committing the unforgivable sin of typoing. :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Though its against the point you are trying to make, people would still believe in having a creator whether its written about or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Though to answer your question, it depends on if there really is a god like the Christians make him out to be, if he is real, then yes he is, but if he isn't, its not very likely, though some people would probably hold onto the theory of his existance, their ideas of it, compared to this realitys Christians, would be skewed, seeing as stories passed on by mouth inevitably become warped over time.

When people do something, its usually for a purpose. Power, Money.. something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't believe the people wrote the Bible were fakes who just wanted to entertain the thoughts of millions. After all.. what you wrote was 100% cartoonish and silly.. anyone can see that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the Bible, I do not see that. They literally try to explain to the reader how things happened.. instead of playing it off as a "get rich quick Jesus Scam!".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People have died for Christ instead of choosing to live. They were simpley asked "Denounce him and live or do not and die". They chose death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, why would people choose to die for something fake? We have proof that Jesus Existed and his ways were recorded in the Bible. He was born just like the rest of us.. and one day he just got up and said.. "i'm gonna go die for God and be 100% perfect.."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is more to it than you are seeing. You should sit and think and ask yourself why would someone go to extreeme conditions for God if it was all vain anyway?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Question: What makes Oogle Monkey from Gonka anymore Cartoonish than God from Heaven? Is it because he has the word "Monkey" in his name, thus you pictures a clown-suit wearing primate? I really want to know why MY character is "Silly" and yours is "Omnipotent, powerful and factual". If "Oogle Monkey" is too "silly" for your liking...We'll call him Anon instead. He was a greek philosopher...Nothing funny about that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There isn't more to it than I am seeing. I'm fully aware that Jesus was a real person. Indeed, he was! The question isn't "Was he real?" it's "Was he the son of a deity?" that needs an answer. Do you believe him just because he said he was? Lots of people say they are Jesus. Noone believes them. Ah - but Jesus performed miracles, you will say. Yes, and if a modern magician claimed to be Jesus, surely he would fool SOMEONE, right? Afterall, someone like Kris Angel performs some pretty weird stuff that makes you go "Huh? Wait, how?"...If he claimed to be Jesus, someone would probably believe him. Is it possible Jesus was just a really smart dude who was good at tricking people? Sure. Is it possible Jesus was just a completely random insane dude and his followers lied about these miracles? Absolutely. Afterall, there have been MANY modern people who have been deemed "insane" and have had many followers. People believe ANYTHING if they want to bad enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And is it possible Jesus was who he said he was? Yea it is. That doesn't change the fact that, to me, the Bible is an unreliable source. Yes, I said it. It's not reliable. It contradicts itself many times, and one is enough to make you see it obviously isn't the DIRECT inspired word of an omnipetent deity. The church also has MANY scriptures that they've deemed "unreleasable" to the public. THAT is unnerving. The direct word of God...Being censored.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Listen, if God exsists, I don't need to join some cult to be a part of that. Don't get to up on your religion - they're ALL cults in their own ways. The very definition of cult is a group of fanatical people. They don't have to steal money and kill people to be a cult. Though I do find it odd that Christians see it as "okay" to drink and eat what represents human blood and flesh. That's creepy. Jesus' or not.

 

When people do something, its usually for a purpose. Power, Money.. something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't believe the people wrote the Bible were fakes who just wanted to entertain the thoughts of millions. After all.. what you wrote was 100% cartoonish and silly.. anyone can see that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the Bible, I do not see that. They literally try to explain to the reader how things happened.. instead of playing it off as a "get rich quick Jesus Scam!".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People have died for Christ instead of choosing to live. They were simpley asked "Denounce him and live or do not and die". They chose death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, why would people choose to die for something fake? We have proof that Jesus Existed and his ways were recorded in the Bible. He was born just like the rest of us.. and one day he just got up and said.. "i'm gonna go die for God and be 100% perfect.."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is more to it than you are seeing. You should sit and think and ask yourself why would someone go to extreeme conditions for God if it was all vain anyway?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Question: What makes Oogle Monkey from Gonka anymore Cartoonish than God from Heaven? Is it because he has the word "Monkey" in his name, thus you pictures a clown-suit wearing primate? I really want to know why MY character is "Silly" and yours is "Omnipotent, powerful and factual". If "Oogle Monkey" is too "silly" for your liking...We'll call him Anon instead. He was a greek philosopher...Nothing funny about that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There isn't more to it than I am seeing. I'm fully aware that Jesus was a real person. Indeed, he was! The question isn't "Was he real?" it's "Was he the son of a deity?" that needs an answer. Do you believe him just because he said he was? Lots of people say they are Jesus. Noone believes them. Ah - but Jesus performed miracles, you will say. Yes, and if a modern magician claimed to be Jesus, surely he would fool SOMEONE, right? Afterall, someone like Kris Angel performs some pretty weird stuff that makes you go "Huh? Wait, how?"...If he claimed to be Jesus, someone would probably believe him. Is it possible Jesus was just a really smart dude who was good at tricking people? Sure. Is it possible Jesus was just a completely random insane dude and his followers lied about these miracles? Absolutely. Afterall, there have been MANY modern people who have been deemed "insane" and have had many followers. People believe ANYTHING if they want to bad enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And is it possible Jesus was who he said he was? Yea it is. That doesn't change the fact that, to me, the Bible is an unreliable source. Yes, I said it. It's not reliable. It contradicts itself many times, and one is enough to make you see it obviously isn't the DIRECT inspired word of an omnipetent deity. The church also has MANY scriptures that they've deemed "unreleasable" to the public. THAT is unnerving. The direct word of God...Being censored.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Listen, if God exsists, I don't need to join some cult to be a part of that. Don't get to up on your religion - they're ALL cults in their own ways. The very definition of cult is a group of fanatical people. They don't have to steal money and kill people to be a cult. Though I do find it odd that Christians see it as "okay" to drink and eat what represents human blood and flesh. That's creepy. Jesus' or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, if Jesus is real, which you have claimed and accepted he is, then the Bible writing about him is not something just trying to get a sale out. Its a book of reality and the events taken place thereof.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, people could have lied in the Bible and said Jesus healed people.. but then why would Jesus Die?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know for a fact that if I was a magician, and suddenly had to die for my false ways of deception, I would be running for the hills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyman with common sense would, anyways. Are you saying that Jesus was a master of deception and illusion? I can understand why he said "love everyone then!" shocking! :shock:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, listen to yourself talk. You put the bible off as a Fictional Book, when even if you don't take the content within seirously, you should atleast take it as seirously to a Historical Level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You just put it off like a child's play toy that makes abo[bleep]ely no sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no idea why Jesus or the Disciples would die for "nothing" if they were deceptive con artists in the name of God. I'm sure they would take their money and run.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Besides that, you just don't "know" deceptive attacks and tricks inless it comes from someone else that teachs you. I'm sure his poor mom taught him all he knows.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure Jesus didn't use his time to sit down and write "how to fool the people part 1".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You really need to sit down and think why would people go to extreeme measures, such as scraficing their life for God..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Instead, you just say "fictional.." and walk on by. Thats very closed minded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

You really need to sit down and think why would people go to extreeme measures, such as scraficing their life for God..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I must ask again, what makes christianity so exclusive? Members of other religions still sacrifice their own lives for their God, every single day. Read the news. Some people will do anything either out of desperation or they truly believe they are doing something 'noble'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know for a fact that if I was a magician, and suddenly had to die for my false ways of deception, I would be running for the hills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyman with common sense would, anyways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look at any mentally unstable patient. They can believe they are the premier of a small island and nobody can shake their belief. They may even fool a modern lie detector because they're so convinced. Jesus was without a doubt a historical person. That's where the proof ends.

 

 

 

I think your brain just can't comprehend how putting a pen to paper is irrelevant to a transcendent being existing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like seriously; someone writes "God did this", and all of a sudden God exists? Give me a break. Just because someone has the idea of God it doesn't mean that God exists and just because someone doesn't have the idea of God it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. I honestly can't believe you don't understand how thought is irrelevant to existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But this argument applies to basically anything unknown like fairies, ghosts, vampires, dragons, spaghetti monsters etc. God is a human construct, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. It doesn't rule out that God is some transcendent, inconsequential being but at the same time it doesn't rule out anything else; that's the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thought is relevant to existence in the case of invented ideas. If humans didn't think think up there idea, people would have no reason to expect the idea to exist. If I asked you if there was Space Orc ruling our galaxy, of course you would say no. That is because the idea of a Space Orc existing is not perpetuated through society so you have no reason to believe in it. However, have you been around the galaxy; how would you know that Space Orc's don't exist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I asked you if ghosts exist, you might say yes or you might say no. In the case of ghosts, the idea that they exist is commonly perpetuated through society. So that the idea that they exist doesn't sound so far fetched to many people. God is in the same class of ghosts, they are ideas which are perpetuated through society but neither are strong enough to be fully believable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can't seriously say that God or Space Orc's exist if I didn't mention them to you, since there is no reason for them to exist from an infinite number of possible things. That's like saying people said the Earth was at the centre of the universe and was later found to be at the centre of the universe or saying that there was an ether and later shown to be an ether. Our ideas have been wrong before and there is no reason to believe that we will not be wrong again.

 

 

When people do something, its usually for a purpose. Power, Money.. something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't believe the people wrote the Bible were fakes who just wanted to entertain the thoughts of millions. After all.. what you wrote was 100% cartoonish and silly.. anyone can see that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the Bible, I do not see that. They literally try to explain to the reader how things happened.. instead of playing it off as a "get rich quick Jesus Scam!".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People have died for Christ instead of choosing to live. They were simpley asked "Denounce him and live or do not and die". They chose death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, why would people choose to die for something fake? We have proof that Jesus Existed and his ways were recorded in the Bible. He was born just like the rest of us.. and one day he just got up and said.. "i'm gonna go die for God and be 100% perfect.."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is more to it than you are seeing. You should sit and think and ask yourself why would someone go to extreeme conditions for God if it was all vain anyway?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Question: What makes Oogle Monkey from Gonka anymore Cartoonish than God from Heaven? Is it because he has the word "Monkey" in his name, thus you pictures a clown-suit wearing primate? I really want to know why MY character is "Silly" and yours is "Omnipotent, powerful and factual". If "Oogle Monkey" is too "silly" for your liking...We'll call him Anon instead. He was a greek philosopher...Nothing funny about that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There isn't more to it than I am seeing. I'm fully aware that Jesus was a real person. Indeed, he was! The question isn't "Was he real?" it's "Was he the son of a deity?" that needs an answer. Do you believe him just because he said he was? Lots of people say they are Jesus. Noone believes them. Ah - but Jesus performed miracles, you will say. Yes, and if a modern magician claimed to be Jesus, surely he would fool SOMEONE, right? Afterall, someone like Kris Angel performs some pretty weird stuff that makes you go "Huh? Wait, how?"...If he claimed to be Jesus, someone would probably believe him. Is it possible Jesus was just a really smart dude who was good at tricking people? Sure. Is it possible Jesus was just a completely random insane dude and his followers lied about these miracles? Absolutely. Afterall, there have been MANY modern people who have been deemed "insane" and have had many followers. People believe ANYTHING if they want to bad enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And is it possible Jesus was who he said he was? Yea it is. That doesn't change the fact that, to me, the Bible is an unreliable source. Yes, I said it. It's not reliable. It contradicts itself many times, and one is enough to make you see it obviously isn't the DIRECT inspired word of an omnipetent deity. The church also has MANY scriptures that they've deemed "unreleasable" to the public. THAT is unnerving. The direct word of God...Being censored.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Listen, if God exsists, I don't need to join some cult to be a part of that. Don't get to up on your religion - they're ALL cults in their own ways. The very definition of cult is a group of fanatical people. They don't have to steal money and kill people to be a cult. Though I do find it odd that Christians see it as "okay" to drink and eat what represents human blood and flesh. That's creepy. Jesus' or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, if Jesus is real, which you have claimed and accepted he is, then the Bible writing about him is not something just trying to get a sale out. Its a book of reality and the events taken place thereof.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, people could have lied in the Bible and said Jesus healed people.. but then why would Jesus Die?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know for a fact that if I was a magician, and suddenly had to die for my false ways of deception, I would be running for the hills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyman with common sense would, anyways. Are you saying that Jesus was a master of deception and illusion? I can understand why he said "love everyone then!" shocking! :shock:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, listen to yourself talk. You put the bible off as a Fictional Book, when even if you don't take the content within seirously, you should atleast take it as seirously to a Historical Level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You just put it off like a child's play toy that makes abo[bleep]ely no sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no idea why Jesus or the Disciples would die for "nothing" if they were deceptive con artists in the name of God. I'm sure they would take their money and run.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Besides that, you just don't "know" deceptive attacks and tricks inless it comes from someone else that teachs you. I'm sure his poor mom taught him all he knows.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure Jesus didn't use his time to sit down and write "how to fool the people part 1".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You really need to sit down and think why would people go to extreeme measures, such as scraficing their life for God..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Instead, you just say "fictional.." and walk on by. Thats very closed minded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can answer all the above questions easily.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1.) I never denied the historical facts of the Bible. The Bible is absolutely a historical record, and has been proven to be so many times over. A lot of Christians take this as proof of God being real - Why? It's the equivalent of me seeing a guy screaming that he is Jesus outside of Wal-mart (HAVE BEFORE! :lol:) and then saying God is real because Wal-mart is an actual place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, Sodom And Gomorrah existed. Yes, Jesus existed. Yes, the Red Sea exists! The questions are not "Do these places exist?", it's "Were they acted upon by a devine being, or was it something explainable (by today's knowledge) and people had no explaination (then), so thought it MUST be devine?" That is the question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2.) Jesus being not who he said he was is completely plausible. How many people claim to be Jesus these days? Tons. How many of them do you think would die believing that? Many. I'm sure the mentally ill ones would surely do it. If these people believe in God and Jesus, they'll go to Heaven no matter what they say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Same goes for Jesus. He was a Jew. He believed in God. No matter what he said, he'd therefore go to Heaven. He said he was the Messiah, and if he denied it later, they probably would have killed him for blasphemy ANYWAYS. :lol: If he was some crazy dude and was familiar with the Jewish religion (he obviously was), he could have easily said he was the Messiah; and even believed it. Of course I'm speculating. Jews, as a whole, however, don't speculate. They believe Jesus was NOT the Messiah. They don't worship him, and they don't believe in him as anything more than a man who claimed to be (and apparently lied?) their Messiah. They are still waiting for him to come. WHY they don't believe it was Jesus, I couldn't tell you...But they do not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You would think that people who believe in the same God would also believe in the same Messiah, but *Shrug*. Apparently Jesus's proof wasn't good enough for the very followers of a religion based around his father. *Boggle*

Does Jesus sound like a crazy man when you read what he says?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He sounds pretty darn resonable to me....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All of them make logical sense. He sounds pretty sane..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

It doesn't matter if he sounds sane. Jesus wrote exactly nothing in the Bible himself. Nothing. People wrote ABOUT him. These people could be considered biased. If Jesus believed he was the son of God, truely, for whatever reason, he could have made others believe the same things. Jesus may have believed it SO much that he actually said extremely wise things. Not all crazy people are stupid. Infact, most of them are highly intelligent. Plus, he was a religious man...Obviously he's going to say something inspirational. Most of them do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Just thought of somethin'...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's like how the church itself lies to make things seem real. Ever heard of that stupid vial of "Blood" they carry around and show people, and it seems solidified, but when you touch it (thus warming it) it liquifies? They claim it is either a Saint's blood, or Jesus's blood, I forget. Either way, it's bogus. You can make it yourself at home if you wish. I don't remember the stuff you need, but I saw it on TV many years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And how about that shroud of Turin that was proven fake? They still hold that peice of junk sacred. Why? Because it gives "evidence". And they need all they can get. As if there was any doubt that thing was fake anyways? It has the face of a modern-day Jesus nearly painted on it. It's a fact that Jesus was not the creepy looking white man we all see today. He had to of been Arabic.

No.. not really. He was born out of the Holy Spirit, not another man. Therefor, he didn't have any requirement to look arabic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have never heard about any of this stuff your mentioning.. saints blood???

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guy claiming to be Jesus in wall mart? Well I got 2 see that.. :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But it looks like you have already made up your mind that Jesus is a fake. However, I won't believe that just because "he was religious, and their suppose to say such things".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus went above and beyond your average preacher. He gave to the poor, he healed tons of people, all of these deeds are mislooked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Instead, he is looked apon some sort of con artist trying to give himself glory which there is nothing further from the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But please, I ask you, rather than showing me evidence.. that i have never heard of before.. tell me what was wrong in his teachings? Love everyone? Where do you find wrong in that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Remember that if a Christian comes up to you and slaps you.. Its not Gods fault.. its not the Bible's Fault.. its not Jesus Christ Fault..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but for some reason.. people point at God and say its his fault.. :-s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

No.. not really. He was born out of the Holy Spirit, not another man. Therefor, he didn't have any requirement to look arabic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have never heard about any of this stuff your mentioning.. saints blood???

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guy claiming to be Jesus in wall mart? Well I got 2 see that.. :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But it looks like you have already made up your mind that Jesus is a fake. However, I won't believe that just because "he was religious, and their suppose to say such things".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus went above and beyond your average preacher. He gave to the poor, he healed tons of people, all of these deeds are mislooked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Instead, he is looked apon some sort of con artist trying to give himself glory which there is nothing further from the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But please, I ask you, rather than showing me evidence.. that i have never heard of before.. tell me what was wrong in his teachings? Love everyone? Where do you find wrong in that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Remember that if a Christian comes up to you and slaps you.. Its not Gods fault.. its not the Bible's Fault.. its not Jesus Christ Fault..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but for some reason.. people point at God and say its his fault.. :-s

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yea, I saw it on TV a longggg time ago. Couple years ago. I really have no idea, I've been googling it and can't find anything yet. I'm 100% sure I'm not just talkin' crap though. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never said I don't believe in Jesus. I merely question and theorize. If Jesus and God truely are deity's, that would be awesome, because the rewards promised are great. However, all evidence points to God being made-up, and Jesus being a phoney of some sort. The Bible was written so long ago...You really can't blame them for writing what they wrote. They didn't know about dinosaurs. They didn't know about early man (which is even more damning than dinosaurs, I dare say), they didn't know about the Universe. They just didn't know. Now *we* know and we can choose to say "You know what? I believe that's all made up, because I'm looking at the FACTS of the world and it's all right in front of me." and that is better than religion. We can actually see it. Way cool. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The hardest thing to believe is that God would entrust the most important text EVER to be written into the hands of humans, which he knows are imperfect, sinful, story-telling all-around-failures. The 10 Commandments were STRAIGHT from the mouth of God, and even those were jotted down (well, you know...pounded, really...) by a human. It's like...God is Omnipotent...But he hasn't wrote a damn letter of his word. Human's are bound to screw something up, and usually intentionally to make it sound better. We're dumb like that.

I was reading your other post about the Dinosuars and that is a intresting view how they got on all continents.. however I don't agree with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why this may sound silly.. but here is why.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There use to be a fun game called the "sand game". It requires you to do stuff while sand is falling down on the screen. You can make all kinds of sorts of stuff happen.. like you can fill the oil sand up in a bowl, and then burn it. The Green sand is considered plant life and when the water sand hits it.. it converts the water into plant sand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then there is salt sand.. umm which does nothing, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, the kewlest thing about this game was planning a scene.. Then acting it out. One of my scenes was lighting a string of plant on fire.. which would orignally go through the process in domino effect. The plant would go through all sorts of material and eventually hitting the big pot of oil, blowing everything up! (WOOT FUN! :thumbsup: )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, a miscalculation came into place. The fire had caught onto some OTHER burnable material and reached the oil earlier than expected..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lets just say while it looked great on the screen, the actually event did not occur. I hope you understood all that :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The same thing with Science. They can show you a planned graph of how it all came to be.. why the dinosuars where on other contients. But just because they can show you that, doesn't mean thats how it happened. Something could have gotten miscalculated, perhaps not enough information is presented to get even more real results.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scientists were not living thousands of years ago to record the "actual" scene, so their really using their Best Educated Guess on how it came to be.. not the actually fact of how it came to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is my Educated Guess. When you throw a rock into a moving river, it will sink, but first, it gets carried down the river a bit ways before hitting the bottom. Sometimes, it will still roll even if its at the surface of the floor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion, when the flood happened, every piece of land on this earth was completely covered in water. Now keep in mind it was flooding, so I do not believe the water was very "calm" till it stoped raining. During this time, the bones of dinosuars could have been moved anywhere or in any position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also to note, Water changes landscapes. Who knows how much of the surface of the earth was changed before and after the flood. How can we bo so certain and correct mathimatically if we are using our current landscape for research without knowing the previous one?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

New Mountains could have been formed under water, or new ravenes. We don't know for sure, but I know for sure that Scientists don't have all the information and to say that its fact would be certainly using your best Educated Guess on the situation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats why your Faith in Science is curious to me.. they don't have all the information but you'll believe it as its a fact. Its not a fact, its a guy saying.. "well guys here's what we got about some information a few thousands of years ago.. what did you think happened?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Noob Scientist: I think..

 

 

 

Scientist: GENIOUS!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Scientist writes it down as possible fact*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man is imperfect, and not all knowing like God is. This is not to say man cannot know, but to say that some things are just impossible to get all the information from, to know what really/truely happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I agree that Science is certainly fun and entertaining, so is God when you combine both into one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So that means i'm having TWICE as more fun than you! :P lol. :mrgreen:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

I was reading your other post about the Dinosuars and that is a intresting view how they got on all continents.. however I don't agree with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why this may sound silly.. but here is why.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There use to be a fun game called the "sand game". It requires you to do stuff while sand is falling down on the screen. You can make all kinds of sorts of stuff happen.. like you can fill the oil sand up in a bowl, and then burn it. The Green sand is considered plant life and when the water sand hits it.. it converts the water into plant sand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then there is salt sand.. umm which does nothing, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, the kewlest thing about this game was planning a scene.. Then acting it out. One of my scenes was lighting a string of plant on fire.. which would orignally go through the process in domino effect. The plant would go through all sorts of material and eventually hitting the big pot of oil, blowing everything up! (WOOT FUN! :thumbsup: )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, a miscalculation came into place. The fire had caught onto some OTHER burnable material and reached the oil earlier than expected..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lets just say while it looked great on the screen, the actually event did not occur. I hope you understood all that :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The same thing with Science. They can show you a planned graph of how it all came to be.. why the dinosuars where on other contients. But just because they can show you that, doesn't mean thats how it happened. Something could have gotten miscalculated, perhaps not enough information is presented to get even more real results.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scientists were not living thousands of years ago to record the "actual" scene, so their really using their Best Educated Guess on how it came to be.. not the actually fact of how it came to be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is my Educated Guess. When you throw a rock into a moving river, it will sink, but first, it gets carried down the river a bit ways before hitting the bottom. Sometimes, it will still roll even if its at the surface of the floor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion, when the flood happened, every piece of land on this earth was completely covered in water. Now keep in mind it was flooding, so I do not believe the water was very "calm" till it stoped raining. During this time, the bones of dinosuars could have been moved anywhere or in any position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also to note, Water changes landscapes. Who knows how much of the surface of the earth was changed before and after the flood. How can we bo so certain and correct mathimatically if we are using our current landscape for research without knowing the previous one?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

New Mountains could have been formed under water, or new ravenes. We don't know for sure, but I know for sure that Scientists don't have all the information and to say that its fact would be certainly using your best Educated Guess on the situation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats why your Faith in Science is curious to me.. they don't have all the information but you'll believe it as its a fact. Its not a fact, its a guy saying.. "well guys here's what we got about some information a few thousands of years ago.. what did you think happened?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Noob Scientist: I think..

 

 

 

Scientist: GENIOUS!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Scientist writes it down as possible fact*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man is imperfect, and not all knowing like God is. This is not to say man cannot know, but to say that some things are just impossible to get all the information from, to know what really/truely happened.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I agree that Science is certainly fun and entertaining, so is God when you combine both into one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So that means i'm having TWICE as more fun than you! :P lol. :mrgreen:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll give you a free science lesson.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly, scientists don't merely 'guess' what happened in the past. They hypothesise what could have happened, based on techniques that are tried and proven. For example: geological rock layers, rings of growth in trees, radioactive dating, air trapped in ice samples etc, etc. In other words, we don't just guess, we provide the best postulation possible which is subject to accountability, which unfortunately religion is not. The accountability of science means that (due to the fact that a conclusion is formed after evidence is presented, not evidence formed to support a conclusion) when any theory, guess or hypothesis is shown to be wrong, it can change and will change according to any new evidence presented.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Catch my drift? So you see, we don't have faith in science whatsoever. Faith is believing in something that won't change and basically can not be proven. Scientific facts, theories, hypothesis, whatever can change and can be proven.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just as a side note, your theory that dinosaur bones were spread around the planet via the flood that covered every piece of land on earth is not scientifically sound. Why? Because there is not possibly enough water on earth to cover up past the tip of mount everest. Unless you say god did it, which is fine but it makes your theory basically null and void because it is based on the belief in god, which itself is based on faith alone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a side side note, water does not form mountains.

 

 

 

 

I think your brain just can't comprehend how putting a pen to paper is irrelevant to a transcendent being existing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like seriously; someone writes "God did this", and all of a sudden God exists? Give me a break. Just because someone has the idea of God it doesn't mean that God exists and just because someone doesn't have the idea of God it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. I honestly can't believe you don't understand how thought is irrelevant to existence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But this argument applies to basically anything unknown like fairies, ghosts, vampires, dragons, spaghetti monsters etc. God is a human construct, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. It doesn't rule out that God is some transcendent, inconsequential being but at the same time it doesn't rule out anything else; that's the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thought is relevant to existence in the case of invented ideas. If humans didn't think think up there idea, people would have no reason to expect the idea to exist. If I asked you if there was Space Orc ruling our galaxy, of course you would say no. That is because the idea of a Space Orc existing is not perpetuated through society so you have no reason to believe in it. However, have you been around the galaxy; how would you know that Space Orc's don't exist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I asked you if ghosts exist, you might say yes or you might say no. In the case of ghosts, the idea that they exist is commonly perpetuated through society. So that the idea that they exist doesn't sound so far fetched to many people. God is in the same class of ghosts, they are ideas which are perpetuated through society but neither are strong enough to be fully believable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can't seriously say that God or Space Orc's exist if I didn't mention them to you, since there is no reason for them to exist from an infinite number of possible things. That's like saying people said the Earth was at the centre of the universe and was later found to be at the centre of the universe or saying that there was an ether and later shown to be an ether. Our ideas have been wrong before and there is no reason to believe that we will not be wrong again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All your argument applies to is the expectation of something existing. Not the actuality of something existing. Putting a pen to paper doesn't bring anything into existence - only the thought of something existing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If nobody wrote about God, then it doesn't change the fact that God might still be somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The existence of something is based 100% on weither or not people can see it and know about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So before we knew about other galaxies, they didn't exist? The second we saw another galaxy was the second it came into existence? Maybe in our minds, but not in actuality. Unless you're a pantheist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But, before I wrote about him, he was just an idea in my head that didn't exist. Noone knew about him. Not even me. I just MADE him exist to myself and others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you made the thought that he exists exist to yourself and others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You will, of course, think that's the dumbest thing you've ever heard, because you cannot comprehend God NOT existing. The Bible says he's always existed, and you believe the Bible is his word, therefore you just can't think that way. You're just not capable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you're just not capable of believing in existence apart from thought. See galaxy example above. You're assuming your atheism in your argument more than I am assuming theism in mine. All I'm saying is that your question is irrelevant to God's existence. The only assumption I'm making is that existence is separate from thought. If existence is dependent on thought, then why do people get surprised?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*someone jumps out from behind a wall*

 

 

 

AAHHHHHHHH!!!!!! I only KNEW that thing existed right there, my thought just surprised me! Frig.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or from your point of view:

 

 

 

That thing came into existence the second I thought about it! Up until the point that I saw him, that person didn't exist!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yah right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it is Philosophy that goes over your head. I do not blame you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My university transcript begs to differ.

To reiterate insane's point in as concise a way as I can death_by_pod.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If something exists, it either exists or it does not. Writing about it does not affect its existence. By saying, "God only exists because humans wrote about Him," you are actually trying to say that God does not exist and the only thing that does exist is an idea of "God." If God Himself actually does exist, His existence would have to precede people writing about Him. If He does exist, his existence is not dependent on the writing's of man, only ideas about Him (whether they be true or false) are dependent on our writings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, it is a subtle use of the Law of Non-Contradiction. God exists or he does not. It cannot be both, and by saying that our writings which assume that God precedes them actually made God come into existence cause God to exist and not exist at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are confusing the notions of "the idea of a God that may or may not exist" and "a God that exists." One is affected by man's ability to write, the latter is not.

The Bible wasn't the cause of Gods existance if he does exist. The Bible was the cause of a lot people to beleive he exists. If the Bible didn't exist then God can exist because the bible did not create God. If it did then that would save a lot of questions about the logic of God being an uncaused cause.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1)Everything has a cause.

 

 

 

(2)The Universe must be caused by something.

 

 

 

(3)God created or caused the universe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which the premise undermines the conclusion. I guess you could counter that with God being spiritual therefore not needing cause - which is faith. Or that infinite regress' are impossible which again doesn't neccessarily lead to a God.

I think we have a good post to break down here to tie into the original poster's question with this thread. This comes from a post on the thread about Radical Islam.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here we have someone making a random offtopic post because he feels the need to share his views. I don't think any malice was purposefully intended in this post yet when you look at it from a different perspective it can be taken as an offensive personal attack against anyone that is

 

 

 

religious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example...

 

 

 

Here's a fun little fact...Some of the same species of dinosaur can be found on different continents. They had NO WAY to get there other than through the Earth being one continent; Pangea. When it started to split, they were stuck there. Now...What does that mean? To logical thinkers and scientists, it means "Holy wow! A lot of scientific work must've went into that to find that out! That's amazing!"...To religious people, it means "God put them there. End of story. Praise God."

 

 

 

Implication... religious people aren't logical thinkers...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...Religious people are boring.

 

 

 

And this quote equals a personal attack on anyone believing in religion...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The actual Earth's history is way more exciting than God's version of history.

 

 

 

This reads to me as... "What I believe is better and exciting and your way is dull and boring"

 

 

 

And this is just an opinion... An opinion in a debate(not that anyone is even debating him in that thread, he just brought this up out of the blue) doesn't amount to jack.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know he probably didn't mean anything by these quotes but hopefully he can see how it could come across offensively to someone. It would be so easy for that person to get offended and fire back something at him. Suddenly we have a pointless flame war and the thread blows up. Everyone just needs to pay more attention to how they word things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean as long as no one actually hates someone for not having the same views as them I don't see why we should have any problems as long as we get on the same page. Personally I think it is ridiculous to hate someone merely on their outlook on life. Yeah I might think you are wrong but you probably think I am wrong. That's fine, I can live with that. As long as no one gets angry because the other person doesn't automatically agree it can lead to some really interesting and educational debates and discussions. I think all of this is the root of the strife on these threads.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you disagree with me on anything I would be glad to hear on what.

I love the mass generalizations of illogical inductive reasoning going on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Religious types don't believe in dinosaurs"

 

 

 

"Religious types do this, don't do that" blah blah blah.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The blanket statements are insulting. We are all not a bunch of fools blinded by the Bible. We believe in science, we believe in creation at the same time.