I would have a LOT to say on this discussion, but I'll try to streamline my points for digestibility.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly, Thomas Edison was a deist, not a Christian.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Secondly, on the topic of extraterrestrial life. The odds are overwhelming that intelligent life outside of Earth exists, without even mentioning the fact that it is absurdly likely that SOME kind of life exists beside us- almost definite. In addition, the U.F.O.s "real or not" debate is fallacious. While I personally do not believe they are legitimate spacecraft, even if I'm right that does not speak about the truth of the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial life. Perhaps they are only at our level of intelligence, and incapable of interstellar travel. Perhaps they are capable of visiting us but choose not to, or haven't found us, or visit us without us knowing at all. What I mean to say is, the U.F.O. debate is a moot point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Corrected my statement on Edison's beliefs.

As for noah and the ark.. Back in those times.. the atmosphere of the world was different than today. The flood is what changed the atomsphere of the entire world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They even used a atomspheric chamber and put a poison snake it in.. if you was to get bit inside the chamber with that snake.. the amtosphere change actually made the snake non-poisoness. I saw this with my own eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you think people started living from 1000 years down to approximately 120? The atmospheric change. Most likely your scientists says it was never "possible" because they was using math on our current atmosphere! It was a different one back then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know tigra explained a bit on this, but i think its just preposterous that you attempt to use science to explain it, when you dont seem to be able to explain it very well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, the atmosphere was different thousands of years ago. But its only because of the introduction of pollution. Tell me how H2O in mass quantities can change the chemical composition of the air? The oxygen in water does not simply remove it self from the air and attach to hydrogen molecules making it turn to water.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

About the snake. You have no scientific backup for how a snake bite changes under a different atmosphere. The composition of the snake venom is a constant, and will not change over time. Since the venom is not released into the air, but directly into a person, there is no pressure change to cause the venom to become less concentrated, ergo making it perhaps less toxic. Since the venom is passed directly into a person, the venom stays at a constant concentration, and does not change once in the body because the pressure in the body is constant, since the change in atmosphere is only on the outside, not on the inside of the body. And since the chemical composition of the inside of the body stays the same, this means that nothing is different, therefore the venom is still has the same effect. (*Note* unless the pressure outside does effect the pressure of blood, what ive said should be true)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You say people lived 1000 years at a time? I call that complete Bull. The human body can only live so long because cells eventually are given to command to stop going through mitosis (The way cells reproduce) which means the body stops making new cells which are constantly damaged. This can cause organs to stop working, ect. Also, we survive on oxygen. The air now is about 22% oxygen (Im going off what i can remember, correct me if im wrong). But the thing is, the human body only needs 16% of that oxygen per breath. therefore, 6% is always wasted, and no matter how much excess oxygen there is in the air, there will always be more then we need.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now im not attacking your religious views, i could care less about that. But that statement im making is that you attempt to use science to prove your point, but you have no way of backing it up if you dont know how the science works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have never once insulted a persons religious beleifs on this forum. I was merely saying he should do a bit of research before he makes assumptions or chooses not to believe something which has science backing it up (by all means, question scientific theory if you want to, it's how science progresses). I haven't brought my 'atheistic beliefs' into this argument either, just science and last time I checked, science does not equal atheism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry if your comment was not directed at me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't worry, it isn't. I didn't mean to say that science=atheism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am just protesting moderator action. Tripsis locked the Evolution thread because "zealots" (in his own words) were taking the topic off track.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that atheists (not synominous with science) are taking this thread off track, nothing is being done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can see where you're coming from. I think it's the few that upset it for the majority though, on both sides.

 

As for noah and the ark.. Back in those times.. the atmosphere of the world was different than today. The flood is what changed the atomsphere of the entire world.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They even used a atomspheric chamber and put a poison snake it in.. if you was to get bit inside the chamber with that snake.. the amtosphere change actually made the snake non-poisoness. I saw this with my own eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you think people started living from 1000 years down to approximately 120? The atmospheric change. Most likely your scientists says it was never "possible" because they was using math on our current atmosphere! It was a different one back then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know tigra explained a bit on this, but i think its just preposterous that you attempt to use science to explain it, when you dont seem to be able to explain it very well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, the atmosphere was different thousands of years ago. But its only because of the introduction of pollution. Tell me how H2O in mass quantities can change the chemical composition of the air? The oxygen in water does not simply remove it self from the air and attach to hydrogen molecules making it turn to water.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

About the snake. You have no scientific backup for how a snake bite changes under a different atmosphere. The composition of the snake venom is a constant, and will not change over time. Since the venom is not released into the air, but directly into a person, there is no pressure change to cause the venom to become less concentrated, ergo making it perhaps less toxic. Since the venom is passed directly into a person, the venom stays at a constant concentration, and does not change once in the body because the pressure in the body is constant, since the change in atmosphere is only on the outside, not on the inside of the body. And since the chemical composition of the inside of the body stays the same, this means that nothing is different, therefore the venom is still has the same effect. (*Note* unless the pressure outside does effect the pressure of blood, what ive said should be true)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You say people lived 1000 years at a time? I call that complete Bull. The human body can only live so long because cells eventually are given to command to stop going through mitosis (The way cells reproduce) which means the body stops making new cells which are constantly damaged. This can cause organs to stop working, ect. Also, we survive on oxygen. The air now is about 22% oxygen (Im going off what i can remember, correct me if im wrong). But the thing is, the human body only needs 16% of that oxygen per breath. therefore, 6% is always wasted, and no matter how much excess oxygen there is in the air, there will always be more then we need.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now im not attacking your religious views, i could care less about that. But that statement im making is that you attempt to use science to prove your point, but you have no way of backing it up if you dont know how the science works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Inncorrect.. I, nor Science, nor you.. know what kind of atmosphere was present. It could have been completely oxygenless! (I don't believe that, but you get my point).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing is.. intill we know what type of atmosphere is.. you can't make sciencetific claims for Todays Atomspheric results.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your using Todays Rules for something that doesn't abide by them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

So what you're saying is, you don't know what the air was composed of then, but it made us live longer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, there is less of that in the air and we've somehow, oh, I dunno'...evolved a way to breathe without it being present.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My my, aren't you a budding little evolutionist! I didn't know you had it in you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But seriously - The whole "atmosphere made people live longer" stuff is bunk. It doesn't matter if magical pixies were in the atmosphere, you wouldn't live to 960 years old. Like Lionheart said, your cells stop reporducing at a certain point, and from that point on, you're screwed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How about this...Abraham WASN'T 960 when he died! :shock: It was just a story!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Oh, and yes, we do know what the atmosphere was like before this "flood". No matter when the "flood" was (assuming it happened, it doesn't matter when), we have records. Ever heard of Amber? Solidified tree-sap? Yea, we've found lots of cool stuff in it...Ancient bugs, Misquitoes...Bee's...Oh, and even air bubbles. Guess what? No magic long-life dust! Only less oxygen in comparison from then to now, and we KNOW 100% that more oxygen doesn't = longer life. Ever seen someone hooked to an oxygen tank? Do they look healthier to you?

 

 

 

Inncorrect.. I, nor Science, nor you.. know what kind of atmosphere was present. It could have been completely oxygenless! (I don't believe that, but you get my point).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing is.. intill we know what type of atmosphere is.. you can't make sciencetific claims for Todays Atomspheric results.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your using Todays Rules for something that doesn't abide by them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think you fully understand that science, with today's knowlege, can make excellent predictions about the past. Not only can it make logical predictions, but we can have actual proof through fossil records, air bubbles in ice sheets, rings of growth in trees, radioactive dating, geological rock layers etc. Please, try and do a bit of research before you post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And as someone stated above, there is sufficient oxygen in the air today to keep us going i.e. we do not need any more. Unless your suggesting we evolved from higher beings (which could utilise more oxygen and thus make us live longer) to lesser ones, which would suggest a) you believe in evolution or B) [i wont say because it's offensive] because we don't evolve from higher beings to lesser ones if the the reason why we are higher beings makes us live stronger and longer.

As I said.. go back to the bible and you'll see the number of years the desecends live. What happens? The number gets lower.. and lower.. and lower.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If your going to critize the bible, ATLEAST READ IT FIRST.. and then come here and say "why its wrong".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And no, I don't buddy with evolutions.. the idea that people evovled to breath was something you conjectured in that little mind of yours. So that tells me something about you..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You make conclusions and statements beyond the degree of the points people are making. Atleast Lion Heart did not..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

Inncorrect.. I, nor Science, nor you.. know what kind of atmosphere was present. It could have been completely oxygenless! (I don't believe that, but you get my point).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing is.. intill we know what type of atmosphere is.. you can't make sciencetific claims for Todays Atomspheric results.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your using Todays Rules for something that doesn't abide by them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my head, All i can hear myself screaming is "SCIENCE NOOB!" But im calm and collective, and wouldn't actually say something like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OF COURSE WE KNOW WHAT THE ATMOSPHERE CONTAINED. It is a constant, and although we have more CO2 levels in the air, there had to be oxygen in order for everything to start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course there are bacteria that can live without oxygen, but if you seriously think that there is no evolution, then those bacteria (which are basic life forms) cant of given life to those that do need oxygen because the oxygen needing bacteria would die! But we have oxygen breathing bacteria. You are making an absurd conclusion. If those bacteria did evolve into anaerobic bacteria (The ones that do use oxygen) Then there would have to be oxygen present in the atmosphere. If not, things would die of instantly.Not to mention i don't know of any plant that cant survive off absolutely no CO2. And for there to be CO2, there has to be oxygen so that the oxygen breathing bacteria can go through cellar respiration causing CO2 to be produced.

As I said.. go back to the bible and you'll see the number of years the desecends live. What happens? The number gets lower.. and lower.. and lower.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If your going to critize the bible, ATLEAST READ IT FIRST.. and then come here and say "why its wrong".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And no, I don't buddy with evolutions.. the idea that people evovled to breath was something you conjectured in that little mind of yours. So that tells me something about you..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You make conclusions and statements beyond the degree of the points people are making. Atleast Lion Heart did not..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've read the Bible. Why am I still not convinced? I know someone who was raised Christian, being told Jesus loved them, then read the Bible and now considers himself atheist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What you claimed happened was that we had to evolve to breathe without your "magic pixie dust" in the air, so yea, you're an evolutionist apparently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See what you did here? You ignored our scientific facts (not opinions, but facts) on the way the world works. You ignored them for what a 6,000 year old book said and said THAT is fact. Abraham was 960, and from there on they died younger and younger...So what? That's proof of God? That's proof that you're making stuff up out of a coincidence. Is it not possible that the writer of the Bible simply wanted Abraham to be considered "superior" and thus let noone be older than him while writing it? It is impossible, now AND at any time, for humans to be 960 years old. As far as I know of, nothing on Earth can reach that age.

 

 

 

If your going to critize the bible, ATLEAST READ IT FIRST.. and then come here and say "why its wrong".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I went to a Lutheran school and studied the chapter of genesis. I have also read through the chapter on my own. If you don't want to listen to what I have to say and just come back with immature and insulting comments, i'm not going to bother.

Firstly, Lionheart, not attacking your post, you made some good points, I just want to point out that you said anaerobic bacteria are those that use oxygen. Actually it's the other way around (anaerobic meaning "without oxygen").

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most importantly, this is another moot point. We are, as has been mentioned, genetically predisposed to an eventual breakdown after a certain point. This point is when the telomeres have reached their shortest point. They shorten after each cell division. Simply put, after a certain number of cell divisions, the cell stops dividing. The content of the atmosphere would have no effect whatsoever on this. Now, Defender, since you do not believe in evolution, you do not believe in a species' genotype changing radically over any period of time, correct? This means that, if we as humans, today, have this predisposition to breaking down after 70-100 years, then however many thousands of years ago you think these events occurred, we were still predisposed to doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no plausible scientific explanation for what you are claiming. If you want to argue magic, though, I cannot, and will not, challenge your view.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Also, Abraham lived to be 175 years old. You may be thinking of Methuselah, who lived to be 969 years old, according to your book.

Firstly, Lionheart, not attacking your post, you made some good points, I just want to point out that you said anaerobic bacteria are those that use oxygen. Actually it's the other way around (anaerobic meaning "without oxygen").

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Memorizing terms in Biology class was my worst part :P But thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way defender. I hope you realize im not attacking you or your belief, but the fact that you are using incorrect science. Other then that, although ive never read the bible, id like to someday, just for fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mods, if this is getting too off topic, let me start some kinda of thread about science.

I thought it would be important to point out, aswell, that Oxygen in high levels can kill you at certain pressures. Anyone living below sea-level wouldn't have lived longer, they would have died faster. Oxygen is a free-radical, which are bad for your body. It canreact with metals and superoxidize your blood which will attack fatty acid in your blood cells. Eventually, it'll form stuff like Nitric Oxide and harm your DNA directly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure if it would absolutely effect anyone, as things like this usually effect scuba-divers and stuff, but like I said...Anyone under sea-level could apparently be done harm.

In my head, All i can hear myself screaming is "SCIENCE NOOB!" But im calm and collective, and wouldn't actually say something like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OF COURSE WE KNOW WHAT THE ATMOSPHERE CONTAINED. It is a constant, and although we have more CO2 levels in the air, there had to be oxygen in order for everything to start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, the fact that there used to be little to no oxygen is the only reason anything did start. Cells just later developed to use oxygen is all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is impossible, now AND at any time, for humans to be 960 years old. As far as I know of, nothing on Earth can reach that age.

 

 

 

I believe certain trees can :-k .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just felt like pointing that junk out, ignore me :lol: .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone else notice how the science threads always get religious spam, and the religious threads seem to get science spam? :lol:

Edit: Also, Abraham lived to be 175 years old. You may be thinking of Methuselah, who lived to be 969 years old, according to your book.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yea, whatever his name was. :lol:

 

 

 

Memorizing terms in Biology class was my worst part :P But thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No prob- I usually wouldn't be so picky about it, I just want to save you the trouble of maybe having someone look it up, see your mistake and go "OMG YOU DON'T KNOW NUTHIN N00B" :wink: .

 

In my head, All i can hear myself screaming is "SCIENCE NOOB!" But im calm and collective, and wouldn't actually say something like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OF COURSE WE KNOW WHAT THE ATMOSPHERE CONTAINED. It is a constant, and although we have more CO2 levels in the air, there had to be oxygen in order for everything to start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, the fact that there used to be little to no oxygen is the only reason anything did start. Cells just later developed to use oxygen is all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mind linking me to anything that can explain it a little more (something other then wikipedia and preferably a university site or something of the sorts.)

I think every religion is criticized by someone at some point. I don't think Christians are treated any worse than atheists. We both gawk our views at each other and insult one another all the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, I skimmed through some of the more recent posts and things are getting a little out of hand. At least pretend to respect your personal differences and keep this discussion as civilized as possible.

Ehhh...I think you'd be hard-pressed to find even a tree that can live to be that old, but I was talkin' more along the lines of...You know...Creatures. :P

 

 

In my head, All i can hear myself screaming is "SCIENCE NOOB!" But im calm and collective, and wouldn't actually say something like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OF COURSE WE KNOW WHAT THE ATMOSPHERE CONTAINED. It is a constant, and although we have more CO2 levels in the air, there had to be oxygen in order for everything to start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, the fact that there used to be little to no oxygen is the only reason anything did start. Cells just later developed to use oxygen is all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mind linking me to anything that can explain it a little more (something other then wikipedia and preferably a university site or something of the sorts.)

 

 

 

I just had a test on "The Origin of Life" in Bio, and basically my book and teach' claimed that the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere would hinder the formation of organic molecules from inorganic molecules because of oxygen's bonding qualities. Thus, it is hypothesized that in the beginning of the Earth that there wasn't much oxygen in the atmosphere. The "Heterotroph First" hypothesis also supports that claim.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, that's way before life, so it's a bit off topic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The site for the textbook is mhhe.com/maderbiology9 . Look under self study, Chapter 19, section 1. It might be in there somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ehhh...I think you'd be hard-pressed to find even a tree that can live to be that old, but I was talkin' more along the lines of...You know...Creatures. :P

 

 

 

Ya, the one tree I'm thinking of may be like 850 years old... not sure. But ya, I get what you're saying :P .

It depends on the dominant faith.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If a country is controlled by Muslims or Christians you can have them trying to impliment their religion into every aspect of life to "save the heathan from the infernal flames of hell".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This leads to oppression.

 

 

 

If something is true, does it need to change over time? If Pythagoras, 2500 years ago or so, discovered that a^2 + b^2 = c^2, do we need to update that truth because times have changed?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It has, a^2 + b^2 = c^2 is only true for a flat geometry.

 

 

 

I'm standing on Earth, I say I'm standing still however someone sitting on the moon would say your moving at around 1000 miles per hour and someone on the sun would say your moving at 67,000 miles per hour. Who is correct?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Without religion the social order would be in chaos.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example, if the good religious leaders hadn't thought up Heaven and Hell (whether they believe in it or not), then everyone would feel like they can do whatever they want in life and not get punished for it in the afterlife. There are a lot of people that are good solely because they believe in Heaven and Hell, so kudos to those guys for thinking those two places up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Many species of great apes have a proper social order without god; For example the Bonobo chimpanzee. Things like Religion being the centre of culture, morality etc. all really on the same fallacy, Correlation doesn't not mean causation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Elaborate? In the evolution thread, I never stated that evolution existed. I merely stated that I don't believe in "man from monkey" and tried to use some religious examples to back up scientific ones. I was willing to carry on a civil discussion about evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No it was locked because people like you ignore extremely compelling evidence without any justification for why it might be wrong and just go on spouting the same old line. "Man from monkey" evolution is shown to be real by shared retroviral DNA fragments. This is only one piece of evidence out of many, however I like this one the most since it's simple and straightforward. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses

 

 

 

The sky is blue, get over it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem isn't the topic, many people here are just incapable of providing a factually valid argument.

Rational Reality: There are billions of stars PER GALAXY. There are billions of galaxies. Each star has a potential for planets around it. Statistically, it is impossible for there to not be life outside our solar system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I saw a documentary that was pretty farfetched but that said God could an alien race from another planet. UFO's have been around for a very long time, Ezekiel even documents a could be UFO encounter in the Bible. However it basically said this Alien race populated this planet as in they created us, they will return for us. Really it's just supplementing God with Alien. But it was interesting. Also at the end of it it showed art work from throughout history of Jesus and Biblical drawing which seemed to have UFO's in them in some form or another. Heres the site with art on i googled it. http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml

 

Rational Reality: There are billions of stars PER GALAXY. There are billions of galaxies. Each star has a potential for planets around it. Statistically, it is impossible for there to not be life outside our solar system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I saw a documentary that was pretty farfetched but that said God could an alien race from another planet. UFO's have been around for a very long time, Ezekiel even documents a could be UFO encounter in the Bible. However it basically said this Alien race populated this planet as in they created us, they will return for us. Really it's just supplementing God with Alien. But it was interesting. Also at the end of it it showed art work from throughout history of Jesus and Biblical drawing which seemed to have UFO's in them in some form or another. Heres the site with art on i googled it. http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/ufo/art.shtml

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yea...Sounds insane, but it's more plausible than God. The funny thing, I think, is how everyone who describes a "God-ly" encounter describes birhgt white lights...Everyone who describes an "Alien" encounter describes bright white lights aswell. :P

The funny thing, I think, is how everyone who describes a "God-ly" encounter describes birhgt white lights...Everyone who describes an "Alien" encounter describes bright white lights aswell. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ahh, but does everyone who describes a 'god-ly' encounter describe being intimately probed in their darkest caverns?