compfreak847

He's going to have a bad day when the spirit mages do a number on him. I went there without a sara item once, and only fast clicking and a teleport tablet saved me from an embarrassing loss of full void and 5m+ in items. Zammy kite in exchange for the unholy book, and sara plateskirt. Expensive, bad stats, but you pay the price for not having 70 range ;) Not really. It's only decent (35-40k) XP, and he'll barely break even at his level. Alch bracelets or yew longs for faster XP. Not sure about tele tabs, I think it's around 35k XP with 300-350k profit. Probably (slightly) worth it for you. ive never got owned by the sara mages because im near the gorak and northwest area Then your getting significantly XP due to the farther spread out Avansies, and your going to have one heck of a run to that area, living with the fear of wandering too close to the Saradomin monsters just east of your training spot.

I don't see how my setup was "terrible". The only difference is prayer bonus and strength bonus (also defence, but the Bunyip compensates enough that it is irrelevant). At my Prayer level (75), it would take 2.61 minutes to drain all of the prayer using Bandos. With Proselyte it would take 3.33 minutes. That would result in about 5 extra trips to recharge prayer per hour. That would incur a small loss going up the ladder, recgarging and back down takes very little time. About 5 seconds, or 10 if slow. I would also be killing at a faster rate, nothing overly significant though. If anything I would have lost less than 1k experience by using Bandos. That is far from "terrible". You misread what I posted then. I did not "notice" any loss in speed with another person there, so that didn't need to be said. As I said, with one other person there there are more than enough Zombie spawns so that I am always in combat (as was the other person) with extra spawns to spare. The only loss of speed that may have been incurred was a chance of an increased distance between Zombies. However, the distance would be so minimal that the loss in time would be little to none. You also misread why I was clicking on the Zombie. The only reason for slower experience was the 3rd person showing up. There were not enough spawns to sustain 3 people, but there is more than enough for 2 people. The main problem with clicking them is that after you kill one and click another, your character runs towards it but gets attacked by another one instead. This results in a loss in hits. In this respect I let auto-retaliate do the job. When I pick up the drops I am already in combat, and I pick up the drops between Whip hits, I then click to attack the Zombie so no loss of speed is incurred. Only sometimes did I accidentally click the wrong one, yes it would have lowered the experience rate, but it would have been a very small loss. I already said more tests would be better, but one hour is a reasonable approximation. This applies to the experience rates and also the profit (although not quite as much on the profit). As for the lower stats, I could have sworn we went through this pages back with Zombie Monkies. Your stats are not that much higher (although more so now than it was before) that the loss in speed won't be significant. Keep in mind, the average player does not have near or at 99 combat stats. So the point of stating 100k as the average isn't accurate, as I said in my previous post. The point is, while these are a good alternative, it is too close to tell which is more efficient without extensive testing. The experience rate for the average player will be less than on Slayer, the profit could be lower or higher. Also, the person who was there with me at the time I asked what he was getting. He said with his stats all at 85 that he got about 86k experience per hour and about 100k profit. He was using proselyte armour, but a DFS instead of a Rune Defender. Going back to one of your original arguments of why Slayer is bad, is saying Zombie Monkies were far easier than doing Slayer. At Armoured Zombies, potting every 5 minutes, recharging prayer, and the "knack for timing picking up with auto retaliate" requires far more attention than Slayer. So Slayer is easier. Step one: You can stop referring to armored zombies at your numbers, because I have tested them much more and I'm telling you that they are 102k XP and 190k profit. These are number that have been precisely recorded (trading with a friend every 60 minutes and screenshotting for price; screenshotting XP before and after; adding everything to an excel table to compute averages), not a general guesstimate from an hour or so of testing like most of the RS population does. Potting every 5 minutes isn't exactly a difficult skill to pick up (click on -> super attack (3)), or recaraging prayer (climb ladder -> pray altar); picking up drops is fairly insignificant and will reduce your XP by maybe 3k per hour until you get the hang of it after a couple of hours (basically, pick up drops shortly before their attack hits you so you lose less time). The outfit for monkies is standard and simple; a tele and bank are very close by; there is hardly any compition or need to learn anything, and attention is only required for a few seceonds every couple of minutes to recharge prayer and pot. Your trying to argue that it requires more attention then slayer? Hello, you've got a set of 20+ different monsters in various spots with different armor setups, requiring hundreds of hours of stratgey and timing (2 space cannon double firing? I spent 15+ hours figuring out the best possible spots and lurings for cannon, and I'm still learning), a high level of attention clicking on every monster (no switching to youtube for 3 minutes here), and 100s of other little nuances that will require far more skill, practice, reading, and experience then zombie monkies, which is: stand there in a standard outfit, pick up anything valuable, and recharge prayer\pot when your prayer points run out. Armored zombies requires 15+ hours of training under the exact same conditions (zero competition, same armor, same stats, same populations etc.), as would every one of the 20+ slayer tasks; an utterly impossible task, given that in the 300+ hours of testing one would have advanced many levels and spent far more time trying to find a completely empty Iron Dragon world that no one came into for 15 hours of testing. Even then, it's still got a huge number of variables; it's far easier to find an empty zombie spot then metal dragons, for example, and slayer requires a far larger set of acquired skills.

I could've got a 99 stat or a hell of alot of money instead of getting barrows gloves. Therefore using your logic barrows gloves are trash. Not the point I'm making, as quests unlock so many pieces of game content that doing them is almost vital. The point I'm saying (goes along with this): There's a big difference - those items are actually worth using. Fighter torso has ZERO use, since other platebodies are better. So assuming you do spend the time getting it, it will simply rot in your bank, as it has no uses whatsoever.

Because you get faster XP from other platebodies, meaning that torso becomes a waste of bank space. Barrows gloves are the best in class, fighter torso is garbage. Your trading +35 slash for an unnoticeable difference that most likely won't even affect your max hit. If your going to value your PVP hits that much, spend the 1.4 hours more to get bandos chestplate and enjoy getting beat by people in barrows. Tell me a better weapon you can fight black demons with at 70 attack that's black and brown striped with a [bleep]e hanging down from the end of it.

He's going to have a bad day when the spirit mages do a number on him. I went there without a sara item once, and only fast clicking and a teleport tablet saved me from an embarrassing loss of full void and 5m+ in items. Zammy kite in exchange for the unholy book, and sara plateskirt. Expensive, bad stats, but you pay the price for not having 70 range ;) Not really. It's only decent (35-40k) XP, and he'll barely break even at his level. Alch bracelets or yew longs for faster XP. Not sure about tele tabs, I think it's around 35k XP with 300-350k profit. Probably (slightly) worth it for you.

Actually, you have to make roughly 60k an hour to make it worthless. Most 100+ people I know that get torso can make a hair more then this :|

Don't bother with the quotes around the facts, as they ARE facts. I nicely answered your perception argument under my opinion section. As for the 'only wasting 8 hours', your not just wasting those yours - your wasting every minute you train, due to the slower XP. Again, it's like wielding a dragon scimitar with whip in inventory while training because you just can't bear to part with the item that took you so long to get, even if it is rubbish. You might be the type of person that does that, but I dare say your in the minority. Actually d scimmy takes even longer to get; I assume you wield one while training? 40-65 defence = 412,204 XP, or roughly 50k XP\hour; obtainable by anyone with 50+ combat stats, and most of those 'pures' wearing a torso at 40 defence are a tad higher then 50 strength.

I've done more PVP (over 900 hours and counting) then almost anyone else I've ever met. And torso stinks for PVP, very badly. Barrows makes it look pathetic. If you can't afford the 3k per hour repair cost you shouldn't be doing PVP, as you would have to do 2,000+ hours of PVP just to break even with the time spent on torso - all the time fighting with vastly inferior torso stats. Perception. Some ppl prefer the torso over barrows like me. To me winning a fight isn't everything. I want to own...and if i lose so be it. I still remembered the time i hit 46 on my 99 def friend, he higher lvl then me. I 3 hit him. U may say its luck but i hit the 46. Which wuld not of happend without the +4 str bonus from the torso. everying goes backt o perception and my\others views you can say torso is inferior as much as you want. but to me its not, to others its not. and i stand by my point. Wrong, the max with a whip is 48; 47 is possible without torso. The times that it actually affects your max hit is very rare.

I've done more PVP (over 900 hours and counting) then almost anyone else I've ever met. And torso stinks for PVP, very badly. Barrows makes it look pathetic. If you can't afford the 3k per hour repair cost you shouldn't be doing PVP, as you would have to do 2,000+ hours of PVP just to break even with the time spent on torso - all the time fighting with vastly inferior torso stats.

Then just put it on when your woodcutting\whatever, or put it in your inventory to admire it and thinka bout all the time you spent on it. Use another plate so you get better XP. It's similar to wielding a dragon scimitar over a whip just because you can't help thinking about all the time you spent on getting that scimitar.

Here's some FACTS. Your having a problem confusing them with opinions: [FACTS] Torso is NOT worth getting, the time taken to get a torso far outweighs the benefits If you do get a torso, you will get faster XP by dropping it and putting on a proslyte plate\dharoks plate. On certain strength levels it will raise your max hit by 1, but this is fairly unlikely and will most likely not be noticeable; a significant amount of XP will be sacrificed for this. [/FACTS] [OPINION] Every now and then I hit 1 higher with torso, even though I'm getting less XP, I prefer that over getting more XP but occasionally seeing 1 lower hit with a different platebody [/OPINION]

I'm not always efficient, but I do factor fun into it : Incorrect. Realistically: Even if you love BA and do end up getting a torso, simply drop it; your wasting a bank space. Wrong. See above. Regardless of how much you love BA, you might as well drop the torso. It's worthless.

But why? The +4 str is not worth the time you lost. It just mathematically isn't. be more specific please. additionally, i will stand on my argument. I value torso and its +4 str over any money, and exp i could of gotten. Mathematically, I don't care. lol no offense, but it gets it through i think. Be more specific? Read my post. Your wasting millions and slowing your training down for the imaginary 'training' advantage you think your getting. But like i said, I value torso over all that. it goes back a perception argument. If someone likes torso, they get it because they like it and it outweighs any exp or money they would get. No, it will not outweigh any exp or money they would get unless they train for hundreds of millions of exp. Perception is useless here, you are fundamentally wrong. 1 + 1 cannot be perceived to equal anything other than 2. The fun factor holds no mathematical value, so please stop using that. I disagree with that; fun is very important. The problem is, most of the torso are being obtained via the incorrect assumption that they are worth using, not because players love BA. The reality is that your better off dropping it. See above.

Unfortunately, the vast majority (in my experience) of players who get torso don't do it because BA is their favorite in game activity; they do it because they think it's better. And I'm here to say it's not. Even if you do waste (NOT a waste if your having fun) your time getting torso, your better off dropping it and wearing proslyte\dharoks top.

Yes, but then I'd have to get into the whole degrading thing argument, even though it's obviously worth it. This was just a very simple yet very efficient way to silence torso advocates; save yourself 6m and buy an adamant chainbody for faster training. It's a great way to argue, even though it seems absurd when you first look at it :P Perception. I value the torso then 6 mil, additionally, faster training eventually is irrelevant when u max your stats. I want to hit 46s on whip without buying a bandos plate, which is 12mil. Like i said, my perception shifts my view and I do not evaluate any mathematical data or any efficiency that saves me if i don't get the torso. Don't bother with the whole maxing your stats argument. I'm basically maxed. There is no place to use torso once your maxed. Not one. PVP? What a joke. Your maxed, you can fight with a 3k-per-hour DH plate for 2,000 hours straight before you approach the time it takes to get fighter torso, and you'll be fighting far better with it too.

Playing the game for FUN. Exactly what I do. I happen to hate BA, and there's a multitude of threads asking 'is fighter torso really worth it?'. No, it's not, your waisting a huge amount of time. If you really enjoy BA more then anything else in game you could be doing (I love PVP, as an example), then sure, go ahead and have fun; consider the torso a slight bonus that would be better off dropped :P (proslyte\dh plate > torso for everything) For the rest of us who don't love BA, it's not worth getting. And I happen to enjoy conceiving the best way to be efficient. Hence why I do it, even if it isn't efficient :

But why? The +4 str is not worth the time you lost. It just mathematically isn't. be more specific please. additionally, i will stand on my argument. I value torso and its +4 str over any money, and exp i could of gotten. Mathematically, I don't care. lol no offense, but it gets it through i think. Be more specific? Read my post. Your wasting millions and slowing your training down for the imaginary 'training' advantage you think your getting.

(THROTTLE THROTTLE THROTTLE THROTTLE) Yeah, I suppose that's the attitude you refer to :P Anyway, rather then let this thread slowly fall into barely noticed arguments, I've created my own thread to deal with it: http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=778280 Not sure if a portion of that thread was an insult to me. Probably wasn't but I think it was. And from a completely un-biased view, that looks like Thread hijacking in a different way. :o The exact opposite, actually :? I'm cold, precise and arrogant when arguing. I'm nice, friendly, and personable when not. Problem is, I mostly come on these forums to debate, I'm quite different in game :cry:

Yes, but then I'd have to get into the whole degrading thing argument, even though it's obviously worth it. This was just a very simple yet very efficient way to silence torso advocates; save yourself 6m and buy an adamant chainbody for faster training. It's a great way to argue, even though it seems absurd when you first look at it :P

That's true, but it's not based on perception - in order for you to occasionally see 1 higher hit, your sacrificing roughly 600k XP, 1.2 million cash, and 50k summoning XP you could have gotten otherwise, or 6m from GWD, or 600k fletching XP etc. etc. etc. That's your choice, but for someone who wants to know which one is better, as in, will make for faster training, this is a more logical answer. It also applies to a lot of people (like me) who hate BH; the majority of my friends that have gotten a torso said they hated it and never wanted to do it again, and would gladly have avoided it had they known it wasn't worth it anyway.

Most monsters use a crush attack, and torso is only +4 over the chainbody; an insignificant factor, especially with the latest summoning\SGS\BTP healing skills, and certainly far smaller a difference then the '100% hit rate' I used, which would swing the balance more in favor of the adamant chainbody.

120 (average strength bonus with whip) /4 (for the exact boost the torso provides) *2 (to allow for strength bonus being only half of the formula, strength being the other half) / 100 (to convert to a percentage) = .6% (final allowance for how much of a boost fighter torso provides at a hypothetical 100% hitting rate) Testing to determine such an exact decimal would be virtually impossible; there are far too many variables, and far too much variance in combat to determine that. However, previous mathematical experiments of mine have proven that results in combat can be calculated with a high degree of accuracy if one simply has a general idea of the underlying factors behind combat hits and XP.

(THROTTLE THROTTLE THROTTLE THROTTLE) Yeah, I suppose that's the attitude you refer to :P Anyway, rather then let this thread slowly fall into barely noticed arguments, I've created my own thread to deal with it: http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=778280

So, I created this thread in response to http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=778258. Apparently someone read a small portion of one of my posts, thinking I was only comparing the stats. In reality, time is just important. A few arguments have been used since I originally typed that: #1, Godswords cost lots money and will never beat a d scimmy unless you train massive amounts of XP #2, Not everyone can make 450k+ per hour In response: #1, Godswords can be resold for almost as much as they were bought, now that they have stabilized, but the time spent playing BH cannot be recovered. #2, Avansies are something open to almost everyone, as are green dragons and dragonhide tanning; 3 easy, low risk methods that a mid-high level can easily do with almost no prior experience. I'm sure there will be other arguments that will pop up, but rest assured I will be replying personally to each one : [hide=]Oh, and I'm trying to be less of an arrogant jerk :cry:[/hide] [hide=]Seriously. I'm nicer in game. I promise. Just ask deathmath\sirhemen\pigunmaden O:)[/hide]

Wrong, for anything but eating PKing (not clan wars), a single SGS spec is equal to 2 AGS specs. Don't go sounding off about how amazing it is, it's HALF as good as SGS for PKing.