Zygimantas

No.

There is nothing to know. Even if I said " I know there is nothing to know", it would not be true. Because I can not even know that. Basically, I can not know, I can not know that I can not know, and I can not know that I can not know that I can not know, and etc.

But isn't that still an epistemologic assertion, the very thing you are reasoning against? Yes it is.

But being human is part of the nothing, and nothing can not be wrong or right. We can not escape nothing, and being human is nothing. The human factor and nothing are one thing.

Well obviously there is something making you sure enough to make that claim. For example, I know that a triangle has three sides. Ok, but in order for me to know something, there must first be something. But the only something there is is nothing. So that knowledge of a triangle having three sides is not knowing something. Of course I can say I know a lot of things, but just because I know a lot about nothing doesn't mean I know a lot about something.

Exactly. Except I don't understand what you mean by "Nothing can ever be the right decision, because our existence itself is wrong," For nothing to be right, something has to be wrong, but there is nothing wrong ( how is existence wrong?), so there is neither "wrong" or "right." Either way, your words bring joy. Nothing matters, not even enjoying it matters. Stop trying to enjoy, stop trying to do anything, you don't even have to try to stop trying. Nothing is serious, it just is. I can not even know that, I can not know anything, because there is nothing to know ;)

I am interested, may you please explain?

In your view ;) Note, I am not referring to you personally, but to everyone. I think people don't realize that in philosophy it's a lot more opinionated than people make it out to be, people constantly argue that their side is right, the other people don't know what they are talking about; and its all just perception. Which I guess is in itself an opinion, but I get greatly perturbed when people say something like "your an idiot if you believe in objective idealism@@!!" ok. So am I an idiot for like peppermint ice cream? Well, in this case I would say yes, that stuff is gross. But this subject is just an opinion, which people seem to forget. Yes, it is all just perception. :P

Everything is made out of energy. You probably think that size is true because you can measure an object's dimensions (length,width, etc.) and mass. All of these are just measurements of amount of energy. But if everything is made out of energy, then energy is everywhere. Only our perceptions make things appear different from anything else. In reality everything is just energy, which in turn is really just made out of nothing. You can not have more nothing in one area then another, it is all the same. For example, I am holding a stapler in my hand, and I feel the weight of it. This weight is only perception. In reality it weighs as much as anything else does, except our perceptions make it seem like it does not. Measurements are just human concepts. Everything is equal to everything else. Equally energy,equally nothing.

Exactly :thumbsup:

Well of course, thats how school works. You complete assignments and then you get more. So I just stopped stressing all together, why spend my life stressing?

Ok, I agree, I just think that that "it" is nothing, because when you take way all the attributes of something caused by perceptions then that's all that is left.

So things are not what we see them as, but they still exist? So our perceptions aren't real about real things?

I liked this.

Well, say I die, then there is no more perceptions in the brain and nothing is left. So therefore, without the brain there is nothing, and reality is just perception. Basically, true reality is not and can not be perceived. Well is everyone else a figment of your imagination then? Or is their perceptions real as well? Not exactly. What I'm trying to say is that yes, there is matter out in the universe, but that matter is really just nothing. The sun is there, but it is human perception that makes it hot, big, bright and round. As soon as the mind labels something it becomes untrue. When you look at a black book it is only black because your mind is there to perceive the light waves emitted from it. There is nothing behind those light waves, only our minds perceive it as something. Basically it is as if your mind perceives everything around you and puts you in a dream state where you think that everything you perceive is real, but then sometimes you can wake up and see that none of it is real and it is the mind that is creating all of those illusions. Then you can go back to your dream knowing that nothing can harm you because it is just a dream. I am not sure what you are saying, are you a Nihilist? What I am trying to say is that nothing but nothingness itself actually exists, everything else is just caused by perceptions which are ultimately just illusions. You can say that I am a nihilist for the most part. Well that makes sense, eventually even matter wont exist and black holes will eventually run out of energy as well and cease to exist. However what is nothingness? Space itself would still exist, as would time are those things or forces? I know I am moving away from what you were talking about, but it is the only way I can make myself understand this concept. Edit: you are right to say a lot of the world is based on how we perceive it, such as this: Is it a vase or 2 faces? [hide][/hide] I think nothingness is just what it sounds like. It is nothing really. If no time or matter ever existed then nothing would still be there. It is really something that is hard to grasp when one thinks about it too deeply. It's both, but I usually see the faces first.

Well, say I die, then there is no more perceptions in the brain and nothing is left. So therefore, without the brain there is nothing, and reality is just perception. Basically, true reality is not and can not be perceived. Well is everyone else a figment of your imagination then? Or is their perceptions real as well? Not exactly. What I'm trying to say is that yes, there is matter out in the universe, but that matter is really just nothing. The sun is there, but it is human perception that makes it hot, big, bright and round. As soon as the mind labels something it becomes untrue. When you look at a black book it is only black because your mind is there to perceive the light waves emitted from it. There is nothing behind those light waves, only our minds perceive it as something. Basically it is as if your mind perceives everything around you and puts you in a dream state where you think that everything you perceive is real, but then sometimes you can wake up and see that none of it is real and it is the mind that is creating all of those illusions. Then you can go back to your dream knowing that nothing can harm you because it is just a dream. I am not sure what you are saying, are you a Nihilist? What I am trying to say is that nothing but nothingness itself actually exists, everything else is just caused by perceptions which are ultimately just illusions. You can say that I am a nihilist for the most part.

Well, say I die, then there is no more perceptions in the brain and nothing is left. So therefore, without the brain there is nothing, and reality is just perception. Basically, true reality is not and can not be perceived. Well is everyone else a figment of your imagination then? Or is their perceptions real as well? Not exactly. What I'm trying to say is that yes, there is matter out in the universe, but that matter is really just nothing. The sun is there, but it is human perception that makes it hot, big, bright and round. As soon as the mind labels something it becomes untrue. When you look at a black book it is only black because your mind is there to perceive the light waves emitted from it. There is nothing behind those light waves, only our minds perceive it as something. Basically it is as if your mind perceives everything around you and puts you in a dream state where you think that everything you perceive is real, but then sometimes you can wake up and see that none of it is real and it is the mind that is creating all of those illusions. Then you can go back to your dream knowing that nothing can harm you because it is just a dream.

Well, say I die, then there is no more perceptions in the brain and nothing is left. So therefore, without the brain there is nothing, and reality is just perception. Basically, true reality is not and can not be perceived.

Existence- Something that is;being of something. (EX: Most people think that a unicorn exists only in imagination.) Real- Something that is there; it actually exists, rather then just the illusion of it. (EX: People say that emotions are real because we feel them)

Do you think that reality only exists within the mind? If so, then what do you think is real outside of the mind? If not, then please explain why.

You of all people should understand that it's not. It is. Clearly not or we'd have an awful lot of American TIF'ers bashing Islam here, which isn't the case. Well I was inferring that by summation he meant average. In that case he is right. The "average" Americans usually do not visit these forums.

You of all people should understand that it's not. It is.

I live to experience these types of questions, human emotion and human thought. To experience pain and suffering as well as happiness and satisfaction. Every thought is just a thought, every action is just an action. Nothing is of importance other then what you make to be of importance. I laugh when sometimes people tell me " You must do this." There is nothing I must do, there is nothing I must feel, nothing I must believe. It's all just.... an experience. Everyone can have their own reason, it is just a reason after all.

Ah, well the discussion ends here then :P

But see if you told me that you refused to eat, I will tell you that your body will die. Not you, just your body and mind. I feel that there is this sense of nothingness beyond the body and mind. This nothingness, empty space, it can not be harmed because it is only aware of the human mind, it does not label it. We all have this nothingness, the whole universe is composed of it, one can even argue that the universe came from it. Atoms themselves are mostly empty space. I believe that if we could look beyond fundamental particles, we will see that the most fundamental is nothingness, something like the quantum universe. This empty space is who we truly are, all the mind and body is is emptiness in a form. This form forms ideas and values that have no substance in them. Take away the observer, the mind, and there is nothing there. How can anything then have any true value? We don't die, I don't, and you don't die. Only our minds and bodies do, the nothingness just takes another form. Im confused about the three selves in your example, you say, "you dont die" but your mind, and your body does. The you that I think you are referring to is probably the soul. In my own personal belief I think the thing people traditionally call a soul is your consciousness, and by all accounts that goes away with death. The consciousness (soul) is in my opinion a lot like the operating system of a computer, and the mind is the software in the background and the body is hardware in there. Why I make this comparison is your consciousness is a lot like the operating system of a computer in that it is your higher mind noticing all the information around it and putting it together (even though the software in the back is responsible, your consciousness is the part you are aware of much like the OS of a computer). And like a computer I believe your consciousness is the result of chemical reactions in your brain - not a self or soul. I have no reason to believe that there is any sense of self after death. With that being said I suppose I cannot prove that our consciousness or soul is not found in the empty spaces between our atoms however I probably wont give it too much credit unless some evidence can be found to support this. But you would be right to say that true value is only an illusion, does your fame, your wealth, anything, truly matter to you when you die? Since I think that when I die all sense of self dies too (not transfered to a heaven or hell or by nothingness to a new form) I would agree all achievements or failures are truly worthless. So to the original question, I still think people value things because it gives them life and happiness, as pointless as it is the grand scheme of things. Like you stated, I am referring to this abstract consciousness. But I just don't think it is formed by the mind, even though the mind can be aware of it. The consciousness is nothing in itself, what is beyond chemical reactions and atoms and all that. It is just nothing, and it takes different forms. It is in everything within the universe. If you die, your idea of consciousness will die with the brain, but the consciousness itself will just take another form. It is like matter, you can not create or destroy it. You have no date of birth, you were always there, just taking another form. When people say "you", or "I" they are referring to their minds and bodies. But in reality we are all the same, we are all just nothingness. We are all one. When one becomes fully aware that true value is just an illusion, instead of just saying it and understanding it they might actually feel it. I look at sadness and happiness and realize that yes, they are true feelings and concepts inside of the mind, but outside of the mind they are nothing. This way nothing can really trouble you. You know that you are just being aware of these feelings, and they are not true.