Barihawk

Really? Really? I mean, I would not call 26.3% of the population that labels themselves, "Evangelicals" a "very few" amount at all. Sure, there is the evangelical "left", but THEY are the ones that are in the very tiny minority. That's just evangelicals, that's not even Baptists or whatever else sect that there is that believes in a literal translation of the creation story, and history of the bible. Also, a gallup poll was just performed and 44% of US Adults agree that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. That's very far from, "very few". There is something VERY wrong with either that poll or the Education system. I'll vote for the latter. Not all Evangelicals believe the same thing. Just like not all liberals are card carrying communists. The stereotypes based upon a WORD are getting out of hand here. EDIT: Just checked some things. Most all major Christian Denominations (AKA Catholics, Methodists, Episcopals, etc) have in their written doctrines and disciplines that the Earth's age is currently believed to be approximately 4.5 billion years old. At the very least there is major theological debate in seminaries which focuses on the theological side rather than the scientific view of the argument. The broader unorganized denominations (like Baptists) are hit and miss, because there is no central authority, only individual churches that interpret things differently. I can see this as being a reason for your figures (although I still think the gallup poll was seriously wierd) as those groups make up large portions of the international Christian assembly.

On that note, why don't we teach more abstinence in schools? Not for religious reasons but for the fact that teenagers screw up sexual relationships? Off topic, but food for thought. I expect a crapstorm because most of you ARE teenagers but I digress. Jeb should support the drug war because most drugs come into the US via Florida. Mostly cocaine, which is without a doubt a bad drug. Also, your hypothetical situation is wrong, and not hypothetical. His name was Strom Thurman and he served in the Senate for forty years, only retiring in the last decade. People still voted for him because while he had very controversial political beliefs, he represented his constituency well. He was a good Senator. Despite what you may think, everyone has a personal set of beliefs. They do not always involve these in everything they do. Most politicians don't. Most Senators do not. If Jeb Bush got elected, you'd forget about him in months. The only thing that stands out about him is that he is George Bush's brother. There are many Senators on both sides of the table who believe the same things. You don't complain about them, do you? No, you complain about Jeb because of his brother.

Think of the political spectrum on any INDIVIDUAL issue as a bell curve. Liberal on left, Conservative on right. The vast majority of people are going to be near the center and the smallest on the extremes. The problem we get into is that everyone likes to lump EVERYTHING together into one political view, which does not work. You can be conservative on some issues, liberal on others. At least you should. People in the extremes tend to come off as obnoxious and pretentious.

The Bible says nothing about the Earth being 6000 years old or even how long the Hebrews considered a year to be. Hell, to be honest God is telling the story in the first place. Everything is relative, not literal. There are VERY few Jews or Christians that believe the world is 6000 years old, the vast majority agree with the scientific view of the age of the Earth. We also believe in dinosaurs and the Big Bang. Ooooh. This thread is 55 pages of the same basic kiddie arguments being shelled out over and over again on both sides. I'd love to ask some doctorates in theology to come lay some of you straight but I don't see the point in wasting their time. The intelligent posting in this thread ended long ago. It's simply boiled down into "Nuh uh, Uh huh!" back and forth.

There are a lot of things wrong with him, a lot more than good, but I will say that he was good for Florida's economy and handled hurricanes quite well. However, he would vote horribly in the Senate as per stances mentioned above. God forbid someone who thinks differently than you do should ever be put into power. Let's turn this into a fascist police state and condition everyone to believe the same thing. Wouldn't that be nice. No war, violence, crime. Yeah. Just because people have stances that are different from yours does not mean they will act on those stances. He is not his brother. For instance, I oppose gay marriage. However, when it comes to voting on it I will refuse to vote either way as I don't agree with it yet I do not like the idea of denying people rights for such reasons. Jeb Bush has voted against his beliefs before, all politicians do. It's something you have to do if you want to survive in politics. He's no different than any other Senatorial candidate. And from what I have seen of his governatorial career, he puts his constituency first before himself. Something a number of Senators could learn.

What's wrong with him? You don't hear anything about him because he's doing a good job. Which doesn't sell news. I'll be glad to see somewhat more equal representation in Congress again.

Speaking as an advocate for further gun control and against a ban, let me say this. Violence should indeed only be used as a last resort. I hate to say something out of Halo, but the world has enough dead heroes. You can retrieve your credit cards, you can get a new cell phone. If you ever find yourself mugged, you should always do what they say unless you feel your life is in immediate danger. Same goes for home defense. An unloaded weapon makes for a good tool, a loaded one is simply asking for trouble. Don't rely on either. First thing you should do is call the police and barricade yourself into a closet or safe room, and then protect yourself/your family. Chances are that a guy trying to remove your TV through the window is not going anywhere fast.

Not really. The entire top ten got screwed when Texas rose FIVE RANKS on a bye week. That was bullcrap.

... An increase in other weapons which are less lethal, thus resulting in an overall decline in homicide rates. Likewise, suicide rates can also be lessened by a reduction in firearm availability. You do realize the vast majority of suicides occur from poisoning or overdose? Hell, gun related suicides are less common than slitting of wrists and HANGINGS. Most people seek the least violent way out. Guns may theoretically be quick (if done right) but the concept of having your head blown to hell is not a pretty one. "Less lethal." Knives still kill a significant amount of people. They are also very easy to procure and incredibly hard to trace.

You are required by law to register with Selective Services at the age of 18. The military has been voluntary since Vietnam, and it is unlikely the draft will be used unless the world goes down the tubes.

What good is the axe/bat/knife, or whatever? You are still injuring/killing them. Which brings me to the freaking point. A gun is no more of a weapon than any of those. Convenient? Sure. But a reduction in gun crimes only leads to an increase in others. And as I type (progressively) I am starting to wonder about this thread in general. Like many things in OT, we only observe the extremes on either side. Either gun-toting Billy Bobs or anal Commie Liberals. The fact is that the majority of gun owners in the US use them safely, do not keep them loaded, and only use them for recreational or sporting use. The preferred weapon for suspicious noises in the middle of the night is indeed a baseball bat or a golf club. Do not assume that every person who owns a weapon is going to necessarily grab it and start shooting when they see a burglar. Hell, the only reason I have that pistol in the nightstand is because it's a display piece and I don't know where to show it yet. As I said previously in my post, sure, it may injure/kill them, but why make it so that it's GOING to kill them? Why make it so overly efficient that it is guaranteed to kill them? Why not just take ALL the guns away? Have cops use tasers except for high ranking officers, that way we wouldn't NEED defence. How would you manage to take away all the guns? How would you keep guns away from seedier elements to society? How will you deal with the rise of an underground gun trade? How would you enforce these laws? How...You see my point? Just because it works in England does not mean it will work here. Hell, people BRAG in England about owning guns and at least with our friends there would drag them out like they were status symbols. We don't really do it that much, here (well, some people and their gun racks...). Mine are personally in the furthest recesses of my home, unloaded, and in boxes where it would be difficult for someone to find them. Oh, with locks, as well. Instead of enforcing laws that can never truly work, why not invest that time into educating people about firearms and the safe ways to handle/store them? It would for one be cheaper. Also, as stated before, maybe expand the license process for gun ownership to include rifles and shotguns. What about those who already have them? How about expanding the firearms license to include ammunition. That way everyone who even buys ammo would have to have taken a mandatory class (hell, not even that long of one) in safety and storage. Refine the current system, don't put a poor replacement in it's place.

Apologies. I misquoted. Someone else had made the stereotype and then you made a crack about being able to shoot someone just for taking your CD player. My mistake. While I don't agree with the decisions, the twinkie deal was covered as there was an "implied threat" faced as interpreted by the judge. Do I agree with that? No. I will grab a gun if I hear someone smash in a window in the middle of the night. I will not fire if they drop and run. Hell, take the item as I am insured. I'd even hesitate if they drew a weapon on me. From there I guess it would have to be adrenaline. It doesn't matter either way as I don't keep any ammunition in the house and the pistol in my bedstand, while imposing, has not been fired in 60 years. What good is the axe/bat/knife, or whatever? You are still injuring/killing them. Which brings me to the freaking point. A gun is no more of a weapon than any of those. Convenient? Sure. But a reduction in gun crimes only leads to an increase in others. And as I type (progressively) I am starting to wonder about this thread in general. Like many things in OT, we only observe the extremes on either side. Either gun-toting Billy Bobs or anal Commie Liberals. The fact is that the majority of gun owners in the US use them safely, do not keep them loaded, and only use them for recreational or sporting use. The preferred weapon for suspicious noises in the middle of the night is indeed a baseball bat or a golf club. Do not assume that every person who owns a weapon is going to necessarily grab it and start shooting when they see a burglar. Hell, the only reason I have that pistol in the nightstand is because it's a display piece and I don't know where to show it yet. Again, I support things like adding a mandatory psychological profile to buy guns. But not to ban them entirely. It screws over the many people who use them safely and will be abused by not only criminals, but these so called Jim Horns who would likely hide their weapons. There's no way to ensure that nobody has a gun. You can't do it. Police can not search homes without a warrant, regardless. The current system of selling guns is actually better since a ban would encourage a "black market" of acquiring arms, while the current method allows law enforcement agencies a chance to use sales information to track down specific customers in a majority of the cases. Even ammunition follows that positive trait.

1) I was talking to magekllr, who is from Virginia. Not you. I don't even want to get into the British stereotype of Texans as I have been there. When I lived in England people sincerely asked me who was taking care of our horses while we were away. Also, your Tex-Mex sucks badly. English restaurants should not offer "authentic Tex-Mex" food when the salsa actually COOLS your mouth. 2) For my renters insurance covering $35000 dollars worth of property (the minimum available from any carrier), the yearly price is about $350 a year. That's on the low side. Many VERY LOW INCOME (AKA POVERTY) people may not be willing to trade other items for insurance. I know it's stupid, but it's true. It's very easy to sit in your relative wealth and compare others experiences to yourself, but realize that not everyone lives as comfortably as you. I know some people who come from low income families who blow 50-60 bucks a month on going to the movies but don't have health insurance offered as part of their work plan because it might reduce their paycheck. As for the US having low housing rates, we also have lower minimum wages. Also, while they may be able to afford, they don't always do it. That's their problem and not mine to judge. I'm just bringing up an example. And a note, I've not met many people who are dreading Obama coming into office except this wierd gun trader guy at a flea market the other day. But he was probably a little odd in the head.

Not true. In Texas, you can shoot someone for jacking your CD player. Joe Horn is a perfect example. You can even use deadly force if someone is stealing someone else's property. Err, no you can't. I just asked a lawyer friend of mine. The Castle clause only protects those who shoot in self defense to protect themselves or a member of their families. The only exception is when the intruder is armed, in which intent to cause harm to anyone inside is assumed. That being said, the law is interpreted by county judges. They might call things differently in far west Texas than they do in the rest of the state. But yes, I totally agree with your repeated and radical use of stereotypes. I've called you out on this in the past. I'm not defending myself, I'm defending the rest of the people down here. Sure, there might be a few "hicks" but the vast majority of Texans (and southerners in general) are no different than you. That goes for all of you. Also remember that many of the cases in which a criminal is shot in this circumstances, it happens to someone who is in the lowest levels of social strata (and before you say "why waste money on a gun!" it's probably passed down) who has felt that they have worked very hard for their possessions and likely does not have the insurance to cover that. Oh yeah, like in the Joe Horn incident.

The next thing that you're going to tell me is that there is no such thing as separation of powers or checks and balances :roll: #-o :wall: No, the Democrats are just as liberal as every right wing conservative party around the developed world. I think the Republicans should move to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or India. They would fare much better over there with their twisted backwards views. 1) No, he's saying that there is no actual wording in the constitution as to the separation of Church and State. It was written in a letter and suggested by George Washington. I personally think it's a wise rule. It's never been a problem, either, because of those very checks and balances. Which, by the way, are written in bold print in the constitution itself. 2) Look at me! My argument is mature and valid. Seriously man, lighten up. You've referred to me as closed minded in the past yet I am currently eager for Obama to come into office despite the fact I specifically did not want him to be President. If it was the opposite, you'd be whining about McCain throughout the term. You are the closed minded one, you always have been. I'm really sick of your "anything that differs from thine views is wrong" approach to these conversations. I'm sorry. I notice that the vast majority of people here who claim that other groups are "backwards" have some terrible character flaw that ends up making them much more "backwards" than the few Republicans who actually post here.

Can you guys grow up? Seriously?

Exactly, that's one important reason for guns (unless you want the military slaughtering deer and leaving them to rot). I disagree on pistols, although I do think that restrictions on caliber should be put in place. Like how the Desert Eagle should only be sold in the .357 variation, not the .50AE. Same goes for .50BMG rifles. There is no reason in my mind why people should own those for private use. I doubt they would be used in violent crimes, but it's just absurd. I plan on buying a small caliber pistol (like a Walther P22 or a Ruger MkII) for target shooting but aside from that I see no real reason to own one aside from defense. And in that case a simple 9mm or .32 will do, no need for a Dirty Harry or something of that nature.

The actual reason is to give the people of the United States a means to enforce the constitution and uphold their rights. Without any method of backing up the constitution, the rest of the rights listed there are empty words on a piece of paper. That sounds like the government's job. I think he meant that it's a preventative measure. The old "the government should fear it's people and not vice versa" approach, which while not currently relevant is a powerful tool in the average joe's arsenal. Personally as a gun owner I have no "scary" or "lucrative" firearms. Just a typical 12 gauge for skeet shooting and a .22LR for plinking. I would hate to have to pay money to "stow" these at a gun club which according to Google I would have to drive over a hundred miles for (a club with a range at it). Ban assault rifles (which are NOT real assault rifles, simply semi automatic bastardized versions that give the LOOK of assault rifles) if you want. Those aren't being used in crimes. Why? Because they are highly specialized and catalogued pieces that can and will be easily traced if used in a crime. Regardless, there may be a correlation between crime rates in nations with or without guns. But when you compare overall crime ratios total, the nations with guns by population have lower crime rates. Part of the idea of this is that there is less motivation to break into a house where a man with a gun may be waiting for you. I'm not saying that guns should be a deterrent against crime, but they serve that psychological purpose in *some* cases. I would never shoot someone who broke into my house (well, with real ammo, anyway) but I will point a weapon in their direction. Ban guns? I'll have a very large knife ready. Ban those? Baseball bat. Point is, anything can be used as a weapon. The same logic goes for criminals. I've seen numbers here for gun crime rates in England going down as a result of the ban. Where are the ratios of crimes committed by other weapons? Any object with enough hatred and creative license can become a weapon. A gun is simply an object that serves as a tool of a criminal. The real danger is the mind that decides to pull the trigger. I will support mandatory psychological examinations for certain types of weapons. But not all. These measures will only effect white collar crime involving guns, anyway. If anyone really wants a gun, illegal or not, they will get it. Same goes for England or Japan or any other nation. The Black Market is worldwide. Also, FYI, assault weapons are illegal in the United States. They sell copies that LOOK like assault weapons for enthusiasts that are not chambered in the same ammunition as the military models. These are limited to single-fire only and can NOT be modified to automatically shoot contrary to popular belief. I am also the kind of person who wonders why idiots need .50BMG rifles to shoot deer or waste targets but that is their money to waste. Chances are that someone who spends $2000 on a rifle and $1.80 per shot is not going to waste it on criminal pursuits. Gun control can use some refinement, yes. But banning is not the answer. Legal weapons do not hurt anyone (except idiots who store loaded guns in their children's closet) and are unlikely to be used in anything but white collar crime. Taking measures to ensure safe handling of weapons (like mandatory classes for rifle and shotgun ownership) would be something I support. Or do like Chris Rock suggests and make bullets worth absurd amounts of money.

Or we can just, you know, create a situation where people are not selling sex at all. And don't give me any of that "what about the ones that enjoy it" crap.

This topic reminds me that the vast majority of people here are either sexist or haven't the faintest clue any knowledge of women.

In the spirit of the thread I am a classical liberal.

Stopped reading there. :roll: You mean you didn't stop reading at "Highlanders?" We've learned that anything he posts should be taken with a dose of salt. It's ok magekillr, when Bush was the bees knees, Highlanders was posting all sorts of leftist stuff. He ebbs and flows. Myself? I won't be doing this as I am above the age so I really have no opinion. I just don't like the idea of a "civilian security force" as much as "community service."

As long as it doesn't end up like the Hitler Youth (which was founded on the exact same ideals of getting children educated and helping the unfortunate) I am fine with it. I really doubt it's going to really motivate too many people.

FYI, she's invincible before she wakes up.

I know there is a huge following at least in IRC for this game but some people are having difficulty in the game. The goal of the guide is to give you advice on the characters and enemies, an introduction to the AI Director, tips, and a run through of the demo. When the full game comes out I will likely update it with walkthroughs for those as well. Formatting and colors? Later. First off: What is Left 4 Dead? Left 4 Dead is a four player co-op game in the Zombie Survival genre. The game relies heavily on teamwork. There is no "I" in Team, but there is one in "Stupidity." If you leave your team you will likely die. But things get better. The game has a very aggressive AI that directs the zombies in the most sadistic manner possible. Eventually there will be a VS game option which will pit survivors against player zombies. Characters: Bill: The Vietnam Veteran who seems to lead the team. He wears green fatigues and a beret, and is usually smoking a cigarette. Francis: A Biker who likes to make one-liners. He wears a black leather vest and a lot of tattoos. Sometimes easy to confuse as a zombie so be careful. Zoey: Teenage girl who finds herself in the Apocolypse. Wears a pink jacket. If you TK her you are just a moron. Louis: Works for corporate at an electronics store. Black guy with a white shirt and tie. Learn what your teammates look like and avoid shooting them. Even in the easy modes shooting teammates will eat through health. On higher difficulties it is deadly. Knockdown: If you take enough damage you will be knocked down. You will have control of your pistols but the accuracy will be very diminished. A teammate will have to help you back up. During this time you will slowly bleed out. Taking damage will accelerate the process. Temporary Health: A full health bar is permament health. A dashed one means temporary health. You will eventually bleed out until you get a medkit. Pills will always give temporary health which will diminish until it returns to the level it was at before using. Death: Sometimes you may be killed. You will have to spectate until a new survivor is found. New players are seen with an orange outline. You must rescue them in order to revive fallen teammates. The Difficulties: Easy: Snore. If you are playing singleplayer to train, this is for you to cut your teeth. You will never play this online, ever. Normal: The default setting. This is the best to learn on. Advanced: A little tougher. Learn to rely on teammates and be careful of increased zombie rushes. Expert: This is near suicide for most groups. You will need steady communication and excellent teamwork to survive. Be ready to fight for every inch of territory. The Weapons: Tier One (Available at all safehouses): Pistol: Everyone gets one, infinite ammo. Magazine size is 15 rounds. You may find a second pistol around the map, bringing your magazine capacity to 30. Shotgun: A standard pump shotgun with eight rounds. Very powerful against groups, but is only for close range. SMG: Uzi with 50 rounds. Less damage. Be careful if you intend to "spray and pray" in order to avoid hitting a teammate. Tier Two (Available at random spawn in map): Rifle: M16 with 50 shots. High damage and rate of fire. For most effective results, burst your fire instead of spraying in full auto. Automatic Shotgun: Incredibly powerful semi-automatic shotgun. Pace your shots or you will empty the tube all over the place. Hunting Rifle: An M14 with 15 rounds and a scope. Near useless at close range, very deadly at long range. Make sure someone is covering your back as you are very succeptable to the Horde when scoped. All the above weapons have a melee attack, by default is set to Mouse2. Throwables (Available around the map): Molotov Cocktail: Defensive weapon that can be used to shut down close corridors. The fire will spread, so make sure to put distance between it and yourself. Make sure to shoot flaming zombies as they can light you on fire. Not advisable to throw at the Tank as you will simply have a Flaming Tank after you. Pipe Bomb: Offensive weapon. The flashing light and high pitched beep will attract all zombies who will cluster around it until it explodes. Communication is vital to avoid throwing two, which is a waste. Useables: Medkit: Four are found at every safehouse and sometimes are spawned around the map (incredibly rare). You have a choice to use it yourself or use it on a teammate (Mouse1 for yourself, Mouse2 for an ally). While using it you will be helpless for about ten seconds, so make sure to have someone cover you. Pain Pills: Simply called "pills" ingame, these will give you temporary health which can be vital if you are low. You can use Mouse2 to give the bottle to someone else. Helping Hand: Sometimes an ally will become knocked down, and their outline will be red. Use the use button (by default E) to help them up. This will take ten seconds and is easily interrupted. Flashlight: Bound to the F key by default, this is a valuable tool in dark areas. However, it can attract the attention of nearby zombies so weigh the risks of using it. The Enemies: Note: Sound. Sound is one of your most valuable tools as you will be able to hear the approach of and identify boss zombies quickly. Learn what each boss sounds like and keep an ear out to warn your team. Zombie: A simple zombie. They are capable of running so don't expect the atypical "slow and dumb" zombie. They are attracted to high frequency sounds and light. They can be dangerous if not prepared and deadly in groups. The Horde: Usually accompanied by music, this is a group of thirty-fifty zombies that will rush you simultaneously. Assume defensive positions and cover your teammates. Bosses: The Boomer: A foul smelling and disgusting zombie. It is morbidly obese and covered with pustules. It is very slow and can be identified by the sound of regurgitation. Do not allow a Boomer to approach you, or it will vomit on you. It's bile will attract the horde to anyone caught in the spray. If someone has been puked on, make sure to cover them. The Boomer explodes on death, doing severe damage. If one is next to you, melee it off before destroying it. The Smoker: A tall zombie with a forty-foot tongue. This zombie can be identified by a coughing and wheezing sound. It can use it's tongue to grab a player and drag them towards it. The player will either get pinned on an object and slowly crushed or drawn into a trap. To release a player you need to melee the teammate (does no damage) or kill the Smoker. When killed, the boss will explode into a cloud of dust, severely limiting and blurring your vision. The Hunter: An agile zombie wearing a gray hoodie and jeans. The Hunter can leap around the map and climb walls. It sounds like a wolf. Be careful if you see it crouching as it is charging it's pounce attack which can pin a player on the ground while it rips them to shreds. The best way to remove it from a player is to tackle it by use of melee. Try to avoid shooting it as you may hit your teammate. The Tank: This thing was going to be called the Hulk before the threat of Lawsuit. That's enough of a description. It sounds pissed off and your screen will shake when you approach. It is very deadly and can hurl chunks of concrete or cars at you. It can also follow you anywhere. Vents, doors? No defense against it. The strategy to kill it? Run and shoot. Retreat with your team while laying down fire on it. If you happen to find a wide open area split up and attack it from all sides. Eventually it will die or "run out of steam" and collapse. That's right, if it fails to hit anything for a period of time it will naturally die. Running should be your first option. The Witch: Seen as a woman or little girl lying on the ground, moaning and crying. You might feel pity for her. Don't. Turn off your flashlights. Don't shoot her. Don't approach her. Don't talk around her. Don't flash her with your light. Don't hit her. More importantly, don't look directly at her. If she awakens, she will fly at you at impossible speeds and rip your still beating heart from your torso as if you were candy. If you can avoid her. If you can't, prepare. And finally the most deadly enemy: The AI Director: The Director is a sadistic AI program which manages nearly everything about the game. Doing too well? It will teach you modesty. Struggling? It might go easy on you. It picks where any items and enemies spawn. It's very random but sometimes predictable. Learn to be prepared at all times, because the Director will be ready for you even if you are not ready for it. Gameplay Tips: -Learn how to handle the different bosses. They are very deadly. -Stick together! You are a team. Rushing ahead is an invitation for death in almost every circumstance. You cover your team and your team will cover you. -Share. Don't hog all the items. If you have 80 health and your buddy has 10, give him your pills or medkit. -Don't wake the witch -Manage your ammunition and health. Play based on these factors. If you are low on ammo, use your pistol. If you are low on health, stick to the middle of the group. -Prioritize: From greatest to least threat here it is. Boomer, Horde, Hunter, Smoker. Tank and Witch are special cases. The Boomer should always be the first target. -The pistol. Use it. It has unlimited ammo and is accurate to medium distances. Save your ammo in the primary weapon for dangerous situations. -There are safehouses at the end of each level. When all four people are in, close the door to change the level. You will be safe until you open up the next area. There will be four healthpacks, weapons, and ammunition here. Take the time to rest, heal, and discuss a strategy. -When dealing with a Tank or Witch, do not stand around. Move. As the intro movie states, Run and Shoot. -Listen. Music or aural clues will tip you off to the Horde or bosses. I'll post the walkthrough of the demo tomorrow. I will also work to add some color to this instead of the wall of text. I hope it's useful to people who get it tomorrow and have difficulty with the game. Get a microphone people!