Makoto_the_Phoenix

Thing is, there are clauses on both ends that prevent the verbatim copying of content over to Jagex's Wiki. CC-BY-SA means you have to attribute the source with links (where possible), and Jagex's Wiki has a stipulation that all content you submit is your own. If there is a ton of CC-BY-SA violations occurring on Jagex's Wiki, I expect some bad blood between Jagex and RSWiki at first. But ultimately they'll resolve it.

True, it couldn't fully convert so easily. But there is definitely ample room in runescape for microtransactions that could have large impacts on the gameplay, don't you think? It's only their integrity and stable existing model that's keeping them from doing so, isn't it? I'm not so sure. What do we think of when we think, "large impact on gameplay"? The two things that come to mind are weapons and bonus experience. If you offer weapons that are only available through microtransactions that exceed the power of any weapon currently in the game, you get a backlash from players that don't wish to pay more [outside of their membership fees] to "be on a level playing field". If you offer bonuses to leveling for a set period of time (kind of like a BXPW), then you get backlash from players that don't wish to pay more [outside of their membership fees] to level at a similar rate. The trick here is to offer stuff that people would actually want, and stuff that would be considered fair. I'm not sure any item could be crafted that would exist like that.

I don't think it'd work so well. The games you described there are virtually built around that model; RuneScape isn't. I don't see a way that would successfully incorporate a newer model like this into a game that's pretty much fixed around its current model.

Yes, yes she bothered to get those screenshots just to make it all up. :rolleyes:. A tad silly to lecture me on debate. I've debated enough with you in the past where the debate's got the better of you so you do your ninja thing and magically disappear. Erewhon2 offered up more evidence in that single post than either of you have in the entire thread. It seems that, every time I reply, you seem less interested in debating my points, and more interested in making attacks.. But that's besides the point. If you want to have an argument with me for whatever reason, feel free to take it to PM. If you want to debate, let's refrain from the personal attacks. :) More to your point, no I don't think she was "making it all up" with those screenshots. I'm saying that the screenshots don't give concrete evidence to prove her case. That's all I'm saying. If you want to chime in with proof of your own to back her point up, feel free at any time. [skeptic - I'm a male. ;)]

Firstly apologies for the delay in responding... I can't give you stats I told you that (and stats are likely to be incorrect because of the loss of bots), I only have my own experience, these screen shots were taken in a few moments of each other. You show me how this indicates that f2p is dying? Can you see that players are queuing to kill cows? They appear to have run out of goblins too :grin: Look at the number of white dots! And not a bot in sight, these are all real people, mostly new and enjoying their RS experience. :thumbsup: -snip- You're fine on the response. it's a holiday so I wouldn't expect dynamic replies anyway :P As for the pictures...those don't really show anything. How do we know that those aren't pures training up at the very early stages? How can we be sure that these are straight-up green rookies coming over and playing RuneScape? How can we be sure that they're not gold farmers training their accounts at the very early stages? There's very little that these pictures demonstrate outside of a few accounts on an F2P server. Alternatively, it could show how few players are actually on the server (I notice that the server capacity is "missing" from that collection of pictures). Maybe F2P isn't dying, but I'm just not convinced by the evidence you've put forward.

toadlol.png LOL indeed Three or so hours later, it's still there. I'm not sure what Jagex is trying to accomplish with this Wiki of theirs -is it really because they couldn't be bothered with maintaining the manual? Even so, if they want it to accurately reflect information, they'd better invest some time into it anyway, or you'll get the above. [still worth a laugh ]

I didn't lump anyone, that was jrhairy. You could give feedback in a different way that would be less likely to lead people to label you, you just don't want to, apparently. Took me about 15 seconds to find a quote of you calling Jagex "eye-gougingly stupid" or whatever it was. Still, that's fairly restrained compared to most of the others he mentioned. hearing both sides of the debate is one thing; moving the people saying they hope Jagex burns in hell--or that Runescape dies quickly-- to the rants forum where they clearly belong, isn't really losing any side of anything one might reasonably term a debate. I'd find it much easier to sympathize with you saying you were personally attacked, if you hadn't been using much harsher language than any directed towards you, towards Jagex and it's developers. I think you might want to consider that dichotomy, and rethink why you're still posting so often here despite apparently having quit playing RS some time ago? I'm not going to deny anything I said. I'll happily stand by it. I felt like they did something incredibly foolish - perhaps "eye-gougingly stupid" was a bit over the top. However, at what point did you hear me saying that Jagex was going to die or fail or anything like that? As for why I'm still posting here - maybe it's because I enjoy the fansite atmosphere. Or better yet - as a CS major and software engineer that intends to make a successful product, I observe and comment on the behaviors of another company, and learn from their mistakes. If you want to talk more about it, feel free to drop me a line in PM. We've beat this to death. I don't want any trouble from you. --- On-Topic: I had a chance to digest the main site and forums, and it feels like they're a step backwards in terms of usability. There's Flash content everywhere, the fonts are difficult to read, and the ease-of-use of the RSOF wasn't preserved. The site itself is a lot laggier and harder to use with mobile devices, which is a shame - I don't know what happened to "Ortho Mode" (from the first Runefest), but they're not going to be able to deploy this successfully if the site uses this kind of CPU-intense content. The fonts really hit home though; I sit about 2 and a half feet away from my monitor at home. Most websites are comfortably readable with that distance, but RuneScape isn't. I kind of feel like they regressed with accessibility and ease-of-use here.

I disagree with your first point, other people earlier on in this thread have clearly stated the positives in the updates, you can go back and see for yourself. The trade limit is only for new players and not comparable to what Jagex did before. So highscores affect you? If you are "pure F2P" for reasons of challenge and its not about money then become a fee paying F2P community, what's the problem? (I have put that point in another thread). A demo has a time limit, RS hasn't....believe it or not, you can actually play it for as long as you want without any penalties. As for new players, I don't have stats if thats what you're asking for. I do have mine and others direct experience of being in F2P since the bot busting....yup I do have an F2P account also. F2P is heaving with new and excited players, declaring they are rich because they have 10k (those were the days :rolleyes: ) and queuing up to kill cows and goblins. It's a working opinion of mine, but that would be the only positive I agree with. Removing bots from high scores is a plus, but the cost at which it had to be implemented was unnecessary, in my opinion. Again, implementing the trade limit, despite it not being on the same scope (or in the same realm of effectiveness) as what was done before, doesn't mean that the past lessons won't apply. I was never "pure" F2P to begin with. There were certainly others that were. I'm only calling to attention the alienation of both the "pure F2P" community, and the up-and-coming F2P community. The rest of your argument is a bit of a non-sequitur, so forgive if I don't reply to that... Lastly, I enjoy giving people the benefit of the doubt, but actions within the community itself and Jagex's own active-online numbers [in F2P] do not convince me enough that your statements are based in fact, but merely conjecture. If you want to convince me, you'll have to give me some concrete information. You don't have to, though - we can let that point just...go. [EDIT] Really, you don't think "~Mr. D. V. "That's it; Jagex blew it; R.I.P. RuneScape & Jagex, 2011-11-21; May they burn in hell." Devnull" qualifies as anti-jagex? If you don't want to be lumped in with that crowd, just because you think Jagex is being "eye-gougingly stupid", then that's ok. But there are multiple people in this thread calling for Jagex to suffer fates worse than mere death. If that doesn't qualify as anti-Jagex, then nothing does. *shrug* So DV can defend his own actions better than I can. As for lumping me in - whether you want to or not doesn't really bother me, I just wish that I could give feedback in a way that didn't label me as either a Jagex apologist or anti-Jagex. He's only allowed to make suggestions that exactly mirror yours? How does that make sense? How does that jibe with "agree to disagree"? If there were a forum for only people who enjoy Runescape and don't want Jagex to burn in hell, I would prefer it to this one. How is that different from moving people who don't fit into that category into rants, anyway? Isn't that just a semantical difference? I'm merely defending myself here. In debates, I like to hear both sides of the table, and not immediately say, "Let's cordone people off that don't agree with such-and-such view to this side of the Internet!" I just felt like I was personally attacked there, that's all. Don't read too deep into it, I'm really not looking for a fight here.

Oh dear... Let's start with a clearing of a misunderstanding. I am not by any means anti-Jagex. I don't think that any of the posters you've mentioned above are, either. It may be the case that we (and I use that term liberally) have decided to post a large quantity of negative feedback in regards to their latest decision. Know what that's called? Feedback. Get used to it being mostly negative, as feedback about successful products is rarely glowing with Skittles and rainbows and puppy dogs. I'll agree that being told how much you suck never helps. Being a software developer myself, hearing that doesn't inspire me to move all ten of my fingers to rectify a situation. Maybe one, but the other nine are hit-or-miss. However, my skin is thick enough that I can take hearing how poorly this module performed, or that someone doesn't like my overall design strategy, or that someone feels I should support such-and-such operating system. I don't recall making any gesture or suggestion that everyone celebrating Jagex's decisions be put into a separate section of the forum, so I would greatly appreciate it if you rescind that part. I'm merely trying to facilitate discussion by presenting my side of the argument (or, if you see fit, how much I disagree with Jagex's latest move). I'm sorry that you don't like it, but you can always agree to disagree.

It's a bit of a bittersweet story, though. Many of us have invested lots of time and money into this game and company to see it turn out like...this. No one here in their wildest dreams thought that Jagex would go through with such a controversial change [to the high scores] after hearing tons of feedback against it...but that's what happens. You have a point. I realize that RS/Jagex isn't worth stressing over. However, that doesn't mean that I won't call them out every time they do something so eye-gouging stupid. Positives? The only handful of positives with the update may be the leprechaun's limits being relaxed and a "new" forum. Outside of that, there is a staggering amount of negatives. - Runehead and Runetracker, both of which make use of the high scores, cannot be used effectively anymore, unless clans are strictly P2P. - Dynamic signatures everywhere cease to operate on a huge chunk of the community. - Long-standing "pure F2P" players (one of which was acknowledged by MMG himself) can no longer display this amazing accomplishment. So you may have to forgive the community for a few days if it seems like the attitude is negative. I think there are some very real and strong positives in the updates, irrespective of highscores, which after all is only one change. Particularly useful is the trading limit for new players of 25k, they can receive as much as they like, but cannot give anyone more than 25k. Well no legitimate new player is going to have 25k to give away, unless its been given to them in which case they will probably want to keep it! I don't even use a 'dynamic signature' so am totally oblivious as to why that should be an issue. Long standing "pure F2P" players, what does that mean? They are dedicated to playing the game free for as long as possible? They hold a principle that 'Free' is better? F2P are the P2P resistance force? You can't hold to that then get all wound up when Jagex try to finally get you into membership, as stated previously Jagex haven't left F2P out of graphical updates, F2P have even had new quests and tasks added...a huge concession to a free game in my opinion. And in all this the "pure F2P" players act like new players are not worth consideration, well I can assure you there are plenty of new players coming to RS and loving it! As for the negativity, its not just a 'few days', its constant! Its like the dripping tap...repetitive and relentless and doesn't serve any real purpose. Okay, I'll keep it short and sweet. - Very real and strong positives in the updates: The only one that's worth writing home about is the Leprechauns. Putting trade limits in retroactively, even after Jagex essentially admitted that trade limits didn't work, is very much a step backwards. - "One" change: You'd be surprised how one change can affect thousands. The highscores and their usage was a very integral part of many fansites, including this one. Just because you didn't make use of it doesn't mean it doesn't affect others. - Pure F2P players: The reason that these players were celebrated [by Jagex] so much is that they were the one and only counterargument to F2P's obvious lack of content. I mean, what's better than someone that's put in 8,000 or more hours in-game? They can say a lot about their product then - how many hours of content it has, how much it has to offer, and how it's all for free. You lose that, you can essentially reduce F2P to nothing more than a demo. Lastly, I don't think you can assure me that new players are coming to the game and loving it, not unless you're privy to some marketing information that the rest of the world isn't. - Negativity: Instead of focusing just on "I think that Jagex messed ________ up" or "I don't like this update because _________", focus in on the reason. There's not much reason to whine if everyone's getting what they expected. If there is whining, then looking at the reasons instead of just hearing the whine would go a long way to understanding the feedback that Jagex is ignoring getting.

I had the same problem. Either play in fixed mode or full screen; I switched to fixed. I've heard that using the RS client fixes the problems for resizeable, but I have yet to try it. Lol the client is not available in my area... That's some shit. :mellow: It's weird because even if I unmaximize my window with RS in it the tabs are still cut off in resizeable... Do you live in Texas? Apparently the official RS Client isn't available there due to them having difficulty securing their IP in that particular state.

It's a bit of a bittersweet story, though. Many of us have invested lots of time and money into this game and company to see it turn out like...this. No one here in their wildest dreams thought that Jagex would go through with such a controversial change [to the high scores] after hearing tons of feedback against it...but that's what happens. You have a point. I realize that RS/Jagex isn't worth stressing over. However, that doesn't mean that I won't call them out every time they do something so eye-gouging stupid. Positives? The only handful of positives with the update may be the leprechaun's limits being relaxed and a "new" forum. Outside of that, there is a staggering amount of negatives. - Runehead and Runetracker, both of which make use of the high scores, cannot be used effectively anymore, unless clans are strictly P2P. - Dynamic signatures everywhere cease to operate on a huge chunk of the community. - Long-standing "pure F2P" players (one of which was acknowledged by MMG himself) can no longer display this amazing accomplishment. So you may have to forgive the community for a few days if it seems like the attitude is negative.

Uhm... Makoto... Check the page title bar... No such luck there. :wall: ~D. V. "Ugh... -.- ..." Devnull Dammit. I can't have one really positive thing from this, can I... Then again it's just not displayed on the main site, so I'll take the better of two evils. *sigh*

...I mean, every time I look at the site I'm reminded of WoW. Even the forums. Not to mention, it's officially too bulky to look at on a lightweight mobile device. Why not try to do something unique instead of overplayed?! There's not a lot that can be said about F2P and its removal of high scores anymore (I suppose I was a bit crestfallen to see that my own stats were gone, too). I'm not sure how the Wiki is going to pan out either, but I can bet that the RuneScape Wiki folks (outside of RS) are going to be livid. There are two good things that I see with this update, though - - I really don't see anything about it being the world's most popular free MMORPG! I get to keep my consolation prize! - At any given time we can have an approximate estimate of membership for any month, with a variance of 14 days. So, with about 556,676 accounts as paying members, that's a cool $3.31M being taken in this month (estimate). Wait, only 556K members? Wasn't it a few years ago that estimates put their membership totals at 1.5-2 million?

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves, HunterDexter. The entire RS community's reacting adversely to these changes, and it's no surprise to me that members of the fansite question Jagex's motives. I know I am right now. It's like Tripsis said - Tip (and others) get benefits of some sort by being affiliated with Jagex. Worst case scenario, you have the fansite's name filtered in-game, and lose certain benefits, like a direct line of communication to Jagex, concept art, sneak peaks to updates, and so forth. It may be the case that all fansites, not just Tip.it, may have to re-evaluate their standing relationship, and see if this new Jagex-backed Wiki is truly the dagger in the back that everyone feels it is. Until then, hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

So far, the ONLY thing they say they're removing is the high scores. Unless I misread, account's stats will still be readable via query. Now, if that's the case, would you be ok with the removal of F2P being ranked in high scores? People on F2P would still be able to show or prove their level. Duel arena stat scouting will still be possible. TheOldNite and LarryR's score could still be linked to in sigs and various replies to make a point about how certain persons aren't as boss as they think they are. Granted, Jagex could remove the query ability in which case the above is moot. There's evidence to suggest that look-up queries are disabled too. http://forum.tip.it/...ost__p__5095570

Pretty much the same way as I see it. :thumbup: I am also with Sydan and Jrhairychest :thumbup: There are some very valid and significant points made by Jrhairychest, put much better than I could. Yet many are continuing to rant against Jagex without stopping for 5 minutes and consider the relevancy of the points made by someone who is obviously a current player and who has been through F2P. Explain this, then. How are fanbase-driven programs going to function accurately? Tip.it has its own dynamic signature, which will be useless to a lot of players in a few days. Runehead's main function was clans, and many clans are F2P to encompass as many people as they can. Runetracker, of which Tip.it is partnered with, won't be able to keep up with a very large amount of its userbase. To the point of "career F2P": So what? Who forces anyone to pay for a free game? It shouldn't matter if a person doesn't elect to pay for members here...especially since not that long ago, Jagex was preaching about how awesome its F2P game was. It really isn't awesome anymore due to a lack of interesting features, and even worse - features are being taken away. I respect your opinion(s) but I disagree. Sorry.

I like your argument and in principle you're right, but you're also incorrect. The biggest thing is that yes, while players don't have a say in anything since they own no stake in the company, customers themselves can vote with their feet if they're truly dissatisfied. Giving your feedback about the game doesn't have quite the same effect as sitting on a board of directors, but it can be felt - if enough customers leave the company behind, then it's just as good as having a stake. Waving money in front of Jagex doesn't mean you own them, but it does mean that if the dissatisfaction of the critical mass reaches a peak, then there'll be a lot of change.

If I actually cared enough to meet the guy face-to-face, I'd prefer to give him a choice lecture on customer service and code reuse, and ask him to comp my plane fare. </offtopic>

Transparency is the best smokescreen of all. They can say they're being fully transparent, and we'll never really know.

I don't want to quote anything, so I'll just blurt it out here. @Carl, I've taken what Mod Mat K said and truth be told, he's right - Moderators of any sort shouldn't be going around and making Jagex look bad on Jagex's own forums. However, retaliation against those that "speak their mind" in that position implies two things: - You're not permitted to have a public opinion outside of the company line, and - The community automatically assumes that all Moderators are on Jagex's side, at all times. Here's the thing. As a moderator, I felt obligated to the community I came from. I had their best interests at heart, and I would try my best to communicate that to Jagex. The biggest problem with Jagex's communication and feedback channels is that it works a bit like /dev/null on UNIX devices - you can put stuff in, but you don't get stuff back. There have been times in which this wasn't the case, but those in my tenure were few and very far between. The reason that outbursts like Jiblix and now Ken Genosis happen is simple - communication breakdown. Jagex has failed to properly prop-up their own volunteers, and support them when their concerns have come through. So you get a situation like this. The main reason that I side against Jagex in these is that they have refused to change their ways, and actually communicate with their own volunteers. It's more or less been the atmosphere of, 'Toe the line or get the hell out', and we're all free-spirited human beings - Jagex does stupid stuff that we have to make them aware of. If the person, regardless of being in some elevated position or not, cannot feel a liberty to air these grievances and have them heard, then there's a major problem. What Jagex wants to do is to foster an air of camaraderie. This is only natural; you're working with JMods and other volunteers, so you all want to (or should) feel like you're on the same page, and heading the same direction. That hasn't happened, so you get situations like this. I'm not opposed to having Moderators only air their grievances out in a private manner, but when that fails, just keeping your mouth shut is the worst thing that could be done. Jagex's public behavior (not their private, since I haven't seen that side of the fence in six months) has led me to believe that they'd rather you keep your mouth shut. And no, not everyone likes that. So...either communication internally improves (I mean like a day vs. night difference), or you'll get the same old song and dance. It really doesn't matter if Jagex has the right to, is obligated to, or is in the right when they come down against a Moderator of any sort when they disagree publicly - as long as distrust between the community of volunteers and Jagex remains, you'll always get this to happen. Cracking down just makes you look like a jerkass, even if you're right. [EDIT] Talking on a site not related to RuneScape shouldn't incur any penalties, either. I'm not shy about my opinion of Jagex, either positive or negative, and I'll be damned if they want to take action on me in a domain they can't control.

I'm tired and need food, so I'll keep this terse. @delapaz: It may have been the case that their tool wasn't working. Fine, I'll concede that point. They've wasted invested untold man-hours into removing bots from their game with these so-called tools, and it's likely the case that they don't want to bother anymore. As for the database, it is definitely a storage issue. SANs ain't cheap, and they would stand to save a pretty penny on downsizing. I'm done. Too tired to even debate this any further. Must eat.

Yes, but what is being spun? What is the real reason for the update, if the stated reason is just spin? That's what no one is talking about, therefore the spin worked. To lessen the shock of the game going to a pay-only model? Only one I can think of, honest. off the top of my head, reasons could be. 1. as stated, to remove bots from hiscores. 2. to save money, large databases get expensive and go up more than linearly with size, a problem worsened by the third party fansites that make large numbers of automated queries. 3. to encourage people to go p2p. 4. to lessen the shock of going pay-only in the future. 5. part of a market research test as they're deciding how the f2p/p2p divide will be handled in stellar dawn. or some combination of those 5. Clearly, it's not a coincidence that bot busting/dice nuking/f2p hiscore bombing all happened within a month of each other. They had them all planned, and are launching them all at once for a reason. What is that reason? (To put it another way--why did they wait to implement dice nuking and f2p hiscore nuking until after bot busting was finished?) I agree that jagex announcements contain a TON of spin, and the amount of time people spend complaining about how illogical those annoucements are is, well, completely illogical, as they're obviously spin to begin with. (I don't like long quote chains, so if I have to be quoted, cut off the top three...) 1. Is their bot detection tool not working properly? Or is this the greatest urban legend ever told in software development? I mean hey - they had an entire fanbase believing that such software existed for nine years. 2. You may have a point, although I thought their data was hyper-compressed and could fit onto a DVD (including all 130,000,000 accounts, active, inactive, or bot). 3. Bad reason to. You can see the backlash is causing members to rescind membership. 4. I agree. 5. This isn't some mad scientist's lab; you toy around with the community like this and there will be no Stellar Dawn. EDIT: @Quyneax, you wrote everything I wanted to write but couldn't muster the strength to. Kudos to you. :)

Yes, but what is being spun? What is the real reason for the update, if the stated reason is just spin? That's what no one is talking about, therefore the spin worked. To lessen the shock of the game going to a pay-only model? Only one I can think of, honest.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm reading this right; as a F2P player you are either dormant or a bot? I find that a bit odd. EXACTLY. Water and ForsakenMage (before she got Members) have been confirmed botters by Jagex. Fact. </sarcasm> But seriously, the level of obfuscating stupidity is approaching meme levels. How much longer can this go on before they finally realize they screwed up royal?...