Makoto_the_Phoenix

I can't say how I see that this violates the DMCA...the user themselves probably didn't, but the bot companies may have. At best, the player could be banned or fined, but the fine is a stretch within the law. I find it suspect that they don't list the exact clauses of the DMCA that are being violated either (although to be frank, this is typical of DMCA violations - they just say you're violating and expect you to magically know what you did wrong according to that law). So, Jagex has the advantage now in ridding the game of bots. Has anyone else noticed what was left in this update's wake yet?

The counter was way too much propaganda for me. PRIDE < FALL. The more hyped up this gets, the less faith I am morally required to place in their best efforts.

I actually think they planned it to be this way for a few months now. I'm sure they only added that bot busting insider session because they realized that they could get this bot fix out in time for Runefest. They probably wanted to have a session to finally be able to boast that they solved the problem. (Assuming this fix is successful) So it really is a giant trumped-up PR event rather than an actual, honest solution to a very serious problem. I don't know how people can place their faith in the company blindly anymore; it's clear they're talking out of both sides of their mouth. But isn't the whole bot issue solely a PR problem in itself? If the public didn't care about bots, nobody, especially Jagex, would consider it a problem. There's really no logical way that Jagex could take out the bots without it being a PR event, so let them. If it does what they say it does, then they deserve all of the PR accolades they can get. If they don't, they deserve the PR disaster that they will get. That's public relations for you. I'm going to get a bucket of popcorn tomorrow, methinks. It's a PR issue since both the company (in the past and now), and the player base have made a huge fuss about it. Although I should quantify what I mean by "PR event", since you're right based on the complete tautology of it. Announcing that you have the next greatest BotZapper5000 (commonly known as ClusterFlutterer) or whatever is what I consider a PR event. Announcing that you're still handling the situation, then having concrete evidence to back those statements up, isn't. We don't need fanfare to see that Jagex is actually being honest and working hard about fighting the bots, but to put it bluntly, that's all we've been given since 2007.

Mm...not likely. They can only get so far (in terms of both legal/ethical ramifications) with software that looks in memory. Then, if it were to actually look in memory, what would it find besides potential bot scripts? What about false positives? Sensitive information? They could be looking anywhere on the machine for all you know, and shrinkwrap agreements allow them to do that. Irritating. Ultimately, no matter how you look at it - if you obfuscate your code, encrypt packets, do whatever you want to the source - the computer has to decrpyt, deobfuscate, and make sense of what this software is doing, or it simply will not run. This is why I feel that technical solutions, no matter how well thought out or effective in the short term are tantamount to building a concrete wall on sinking sand. Then again, I have to consider also - what does this mean for the game's portability and edge on mobile devices, as well as its potential (although unlikely now) console market? Will this move lock out users of Mac OSX and Linux at some point in the future? I see more technical problems than solutions here.

Yeah, I'm just as skeptical. Being transparent about the problem is one thing, but consistency is quite another, if not more important. My hope is that they get that sorted ASAP. I actually think they planned it to be this way for a few months now. I'm sure they only added that bot busting insider session because they realized that they could get this bot fix out in time for Runefest. They probably wanted to have a session to finally be able to boast that they solved the problem. (Assuming this fix is successful) So it really is a giant trumped-up PR event rather than an actual, honest solution to a very serious problem. I don't know how people can place their faith in the company blindly anymore; it's clear they're talking out of both sides of their mouth.

I nearly choked on my cup of tea. Anyway, truth be told, they're right - this isn't going to change much of anything. If you wanted to send a clear message to Jagex, you would unsubscribe instead of just voting for some random game.

I've had some time to think about this. Yes, I'm still firmly in the "believe it when I see it" group, with some pessimism added for flavor. However, I have to weigh the larger question: what will Jagex do to prevent people from wanting to bot in the future? Think about it. The primary reason real players use these is to free themselves from the horribly dull grind that is much of RuneScape. RWT and bot companies feed on this bordeom and, regardless of any mere technical solution (which, in time, will also be conquered), the culture of the game will have remain unchanged. So, let's assume then that Jagex's clusterf-I mean ClusterFutter works. The vast majority of bots are now banned. However, the gameplay is still bent to favor the grind. Will Jagex have thus rid the game of bots? Nope - where there's a will to take the easy road, it will have been well traveled.

Yep. I'll believe it when I see it. Not to mention, Reflection isn't the only way to get a bot to work. -.-

I don't understand? PR stunt, yes. If they thought lip-service was enough at this point, we would not have seen the changes to ad-bots, chat changes, and frost dragon changes. But these things are necessary to start getting the player base on their side. But the way I think of it is: I knew they were full of shit when they said they could stop bots when free trade came back. I voted yes anyway, because it was a step in the right direction. And I look at this newspost, which has a less bullshit ring to it, and also think that the efforts from these things are steps in the right direction. You have said that rewriting the entire nature of the game would cost vast amounts of money and manhours to make goldfarming useless. We both know that Jagex can't do that. They have no choice to make pleas like this to get people to lessen their dependency on goldfarmers, by bolstering their faith in them with attempts and (spotty) successes. The newspost itself was a persuasive argument, which is why they used bold statements like, "We can't do it without your help!". The updates that followed were the attempts and (spotty) successes. So whether or not you agree with the referrendum/free trade stuff and the fluff that went isn't the point. That is why I said that it was always commonly understood that they needed the community to police itself. That's why they made this post. The community has turned to botting because of personal gain, either by RL cash or ease of play, and Jagex will take whatever cost-effective solutions they can get their hands on. (ie persuading people to stop botting/supporting goldfarming) Yeah, they're far from a dazzling white reputation in my eyes, but they're starting to scrub at those nasty stains. I'll clarify one point of orthography then: The implied promise was that Jagex already had this covered. Of course, most of us knew they were full of it when they said this, but there were some of us that were cautiously optimistic - myself included. The reason that I don't like this PR statement, rather, why I feel like this entire PR statement is so full of manure that I could tend a large farm with it, hinges on what "their word" said way back when, and what it's saying now. It's a huge let-down to hear that Jagex really can't handle this issue after all, and while the some in the community are eager to "help solve" the botting problem, it's nothing more than one giant smokescreen. The bot problem is an iceberg. We only see the surface of the thing, but not the rest lurking below. We don't know what measures Jagex has taken that have failed against bots. We don't know what measures Jagex has considered but won't implement due to ramifications (technical, legal, etc). We don't know what resources they would devote to a concrete solution. We don't know how bad the problem is from their end. At this point, I would disagree that this move ("this move" defined as tweaking the frost dragons) is a step in the right direction. It's really, more or less, a bandage on a wound that's well beyond the rotting flesh phase. You'll certainly have the fanbase who believes that Jagex has a chance of fending the hoardes off for another year or two backing them, but how much longer, realistically, can Jagex keep preaching over-the-top changes and/or new tactics to fight bots until they've got the T-shirt for it?

I don't think it's that they're secretly botting. It's just that the same damn thing has been tried and it didn't work. Or do you not remember what RSC was like with sleeping bags and fatigue? Right. Now, I can't say I've read the rest of this post, since I read the word "javascript" and immediately knew you weren't talking about anything related to RuneScape. Sorry, old programmer's habits. That's because the old captchas in RSC were crap. Captchas have been upgraded since then. Why do you think they use them on so many websites? Surely they must do something. Nope. They're not that hard to defeat, as another poster already pointed out. Java can digest web content, as well as receive it. So truthfully, defeating CAPTCHA can be done. Hopefully someone can come up with something that doesn't involve making tweaks to an already broken platform to fix the problems.

I don't think it's that they're secretly botting. It's just that the same damn thing has been tried and it didn't work. Or do you not remember what RSC was like with sleeping bags and fatigue? Right. Now, I can't say I've read the rest of this post, since I read the word "javascript" and immediately knew you weren't talking about anything related to RuneScape. Sorry, old programmer's habits.

Famous last words, anyone? Gotta agree. RuneScape isn't going to last much longer than a few years, not at this rate. They'll shift their energies to another product, if that product turns out to be more profitable than this is.

Sorry Jagex, you've already lost this arm race. Fighting it with more development time and resources, and radically inconveniencing normal users does not solve the problem; it only radically increases it. Well, I'd like to say that they're finally doing something. But truthfully, they're up to the same old crap that won't work. They can't win this anymore.

Pretty messy way to deal with them. I would love to see what would've happened if that happened in World 2. This is why automated solutions don't work. There will always be someone that is caught in the crossfire.

I don't think they're just now admitting it. It's what was commonly understood to be necessary, which is why we have player mods and reports in the first place. But Jagex was heavily criticized for a lack of visible results breeding apathy to the situation in their player base. I think that was more of the reason for this newspost than a sudden revelation more than anything. I respectfully disagree. It's horribly bad PR and ruins the faith one has with their customers if they promised they could handle a problem, but some time later reveal that the problem over their heads. Well, Daniel Clough put it more succinctly: (His emphasis, not mine.) Jagex has been as forthcoming with their anti-bot information as a tight-lipped CFO during an embezzlement investigation. I can't say I'd anticipate visible results until something else drastic happens, such as another removal of the Wilderness, or a fundamental change to the game itself. Jagex will continue to be heavily criticized until they have lived up to their own lofty promise. Until then, they can remain under the magnifier for another year or so. As for PMods? No, Player Moderators do not exist to report bots. In fact, the reports made by any one Player Moderator in this category have the same priority and effect as any other normal person's report.

I would say "The End is Nigh" was a bit...unnecessary.

So they admitted that the problem is too much for them to handle alone, and that they've been too quiet about what's really happening. Gee. Welcome to pre-2007 (surprise in December) and pre-Referendum (surprise in December, coincidentally). Unless botting becomes pointless in the grand scheme of things, or Jagex finally starts putting together actual numbers of what they're doing, these are nothing more than hollow words to me. It's only reinforced the sentiment I had back in January that Jagex didn't have a damn clue what they had unleashed back into their game in full force. EDIT: They've only just now begun e-mail validation? Or rather, they're only now considering implementing it? I'm at a loss for words. With the obvious abuse the registration system has had over the years, I thought for sure that they would have squared this away back in '09. Just...wow.

Lol, as if tip.it, zybez.net, and a [cabbage]ton of other sites aren't hacked. That is the past and I think that is not what we are discussing here. Right now (or yesterday) runehq was hacked and their password got decrypted by hackers, not on tip.it zybez.net or any other site. (according to op) What is runehq's next move/what did they do to prevent this in the future. Yeah, that is pretty ironic. Must...eat...words... Although I will stand by what I said; something in the name of security needs to change. Not just at RHQ, but here as well. Maybe not something as drastic as a sweep of the server admins...but honestly, something. Hacking requires knowledge, which only requires time and willpower. I don't classify this as hacking, but as cracking and/or genuine douchebaggery. Even if it's an illegal act, I doubt Jagex will act on it seriously, since they knew nothing could be compromised. Of course, that's not the only reason that would stop Jagex from pursuing charges. Jagex already retains a large amount of control of their players without having to resort to legal action, and the cons of pursuing legal action outweigh the pros for such a small act. How many players' accounts have been accessed without their consent? How many have gotten punished by Jagex? I would say almost none, for the act of accessing an account, by itself, isn't even against their rules, and Jagex has no responsibility to pursue action in that particular vein. Access someone's account and scam another, though, and you might face a short mute. The best Jagex can do is to tell players to be as secure as possible with their account, and to punish players whom they know accessed a player's password through levying a mute or a ban. Hell, Jagex knows who accessed Chessy018s account, I'm sure a few people do, and no legal action was taken against him, because it's absolutely not worth it. I also don't think the announcement itself is the illegal act (what your quote is implying) but the attempt of access itself. The opportunity to pursue legal action is there, but there are many reasons why Jagex would resort to other methods of action/punishment. I don't know how Jagex would react, although a lawsuit or any sort of legal action is the furthest thing from my mind. The best thing that could happen from this situation: Jagex deactivates accounts known to be from here and asks them to recover to prevent potential compromised accounts, like they did in the past. The worst thing that could happen: Jagex decides to kick the community to the curb due to this unfortunate event. Right...I think I've posted off-topic on this thread enough, haha.

Speaking strictly for myself, I took it on faith that it wasn't (as it was also confirmed earlier in the thread). But there's nothing else interesting about this. It's just that a JMod's account is locked from the outside. -.-

I notice that the video shows nothing that the GIF didn't...

No, I don't think RuneHQ needs to find a place to put an air shaft. If it really is the case that RHQ's MD5 password table was compromised/leaked, they could do with a sweep of the server administrators.

Look at the post above you I even posted the password in this thread so you can look it up yourself. But you can type any password in and get the account locked message once the account is locked, doesn't matter if its right or wrong; unless something got changed quite recently. [/hide]You get password wrong message if you use other password. Also the point is that the runehq db is leaked but its Decrypted in md5 which is one way encryption and only a bruteforce can decrypt it. MD5 is a one-way hash, not an encryption scheme. If the hash was unsalted (which isn't good in practice anyway), then a rainbow table could be used to match the hash with a phrase much faster than bruteforce. Anyway. JMods can only log in through the network that Jagex has. Unless you're on Jagex's internal network (like their VPN), knowing their login credentials is pretty useless.

That "High Level Suggestions" was great thread. It was well moderated, had great ideas and discussions about them. Plus, the ideas actually were being used in game. I mean, God Wars Dungeon was inspired directly by my suggestion in that thread so it's easy to see why I'm still excited about it even now. That said, this "Mail in an Idea" is a slap in the face to what that thread and the suggestions forum is supposed to be doing. Yeah, we all make fun of the official forums, but a well moderated one that's willing to cut the chaff (DUEL SWORDS, BEST IDEA EVAAAA!!!) actually will give you better choice of content to finally open up for a vote. In addition, you get a decent discussion that can help build the idea's strengths and cut down on the flaws. That's my point, and I do remember you posting on the HLS at one point. I too feel that this has, more or less, undermined the point of suggestions in the first place, as well as elaborate discussions about them from within the community. You're going to get Jagex's developers to take a close, metered, responsible look at the suggestion give it the "4Kids x One Piece treatment", without having the community really take part - it's a reversal of the open suggestion policy, in my eyes. I don't recall saying "fair". What I meant was, is it right to hold a suggestions contest in the name of Runefest, whereas community-popular suggestions have gone mostly unacknowledged for years?

Maybe I shouldn't be so melancholy, but I'm reminded of the older "High Level Suggestions" thread that Mod Craddock at least paid attention to once every fortnight. I'm also reminded that the suggestions on there didn't go much further than that, and its popularity faded. *sigh* I really should see this as a positive for the game, as a [potentially] good idea [may] come into the game, but does this mean that years of players suggesting ideas really went unthanked, whereas the person that wins this competition gets it shouted from the mountaintops? I just don't see how that's right. :S

You've been around since classic, right? You should know that CAPTCHA doesn't work as effectively as one would think. Not just because it's not much of a hurdle to overcome (i.e. downloading the model for the CAPTCHA, sending the data off to a third party site for validation, etc), but it causes a legitimate inconvenience to a certain demographic of players with vision impairments.