qeltar

Who died and put you in charge? Why are the incessant personal attacks against MHL tolerated here -- and that's all this pointless post consists of? There are moderators posting and completely ignoring them by the dozen.

Well, it could be made to affect other aspects of gameplay, such as boss difficulty. As a solo player I don't find any of the levels really all that challenging, just time consuming. It would be nice to face a higher combat level boss and get more XP as a result -- less grinding. That's true, I hadn't thought about that angle. Though it would be at least partially offset by having to generate fewer dungeons and so forth. They did say we should be able to solo medium maps, though, did they not? But you can't. LOL. It's like when you watch those law shows and some executive is being depositioned with his lawyer sitting next to him. Any time the other side asks a question where the answer would actually be meaningful, the lawyer either tells the guy not to reply, or responds with something like "we can neither confirm nor deny that". :mrgreen: It's a pathetic but predictable consequence of a company growing into a large corporation.

You don't have to do them in order, but you do have to do all of floors 1-8 to get a prestige of 9. Strongly advise against using a complexity below 6. A floor with complexity 1 takes about 1/3 to 1/4 of the time of complexity 6, but gives about 1/10th the XP.

Well, you can. I've gotten down to floor 28 and have no problems soloing any of them. I am fine with there being more rewards for group play -- it is more difficult to get a team together and get in sync to do a dungeon than it is to do solo. I tried a team today and while it was fun to have people to interact with, it was also a nuisance in a number of ways. But I like doing things my own way. :P I'd really like to be able to do larger maps, though. We are supposed to be able to solo medium-sized maps but we can't. I don't see any reason to restrict the dungeon size based on the number of players. It would also be nice to be able to increase the difficulty setting.

The lack of empathy expressed in some of the moronic, childish responses in this thread is truly sickening. It doesn't reflect well on this community. Video game addiction is real. And while those who suffer for it often do bear some of the blame for their conditions, that doesn't justify obnoxiously insulting them or making fun of them. Some people here might also be surprised to learn how many video games -- especially MMOs -- are systematically designed to exploit weaknesses that lead to addiction.

The benefits of having 99 are fairly limited here, not just because of the segregation, but because you usually don't need 99s even in Daemonheim. That's a sort of inherent limitation on the appeal of 99s. I think they could make rewards outside Dungeoneering that are similarly limited for balance but have wider applicability.

Yesterday we were talking about prestige and intrinsic versus extrinsic ways of getting players to do lower level content. Amusingly, Jagex themselves have provided an excellent counterpoint to prestige with their update today. Prestige comes across as punitive to many players, because the penalty is so harsh for redoing deeper floors that it almost never makes sense to do it. Thus, many players feel they are being forced to redo lower level content. The Slayer challenges are, IMNSVHO, the *right* way to get people to re-explore lower level content. There's now a reason for players who used to "camp" Kuradal to try lower level Slayer masters. And the feature is implemented so it comes across as a carrot instead of a stick. This could be done in Dungeoneering by adding small rewards that are given at random, where the chance is based on the difference between prestige level and the current level you are doing. Or any of a million other ways.

Use a beast of burden.

That's not very reasonable, is it? I mean, this is new content, not a tweak to existing content. And you can't get a new skill every week. Has anything of note been changed in Dungeoneering? They decided not to list anything so I'm curious about changes (other than reward costs) that go beyond mere bug fixes.

It's a nice side benefit, but it's not anything earth-shattering. The lack of applicability to the rest of the game makes the appeal somewhat limited. There is also the team aspect that to some extent makes high level players in groups subject to a lot of "assist requesting". And the boosting potions are far more powerful than outside: with the right potion, an 88 is a 99.

Do a complexity 1 dungeon and you'll get at least something decent to start. Then you can bind it and go back to 6.

Current figures (profit per worker): Herbs 15,395 Wood 13,470 Fishing (Raw) 13,347 Fishing (Cooked) 11,738 Mining 10,313 Flax 7,321 Farming (Seeds) 5,126 Rare Wood (Mahogany Only) 3,099 Rare Wood (Teak and Mahogany) 1,539 Rare Wood (Teak Only) -684

The specifics don't matter. The point is to have your Dungeoneering level help you in ... dungeons! Then this could at least be argued to be a skill. Sure, all of the items I listed also involve other skills, but that's sorta the point. And really, even that hastily prepared list is a lot more relevant to what you do in training the skill than the current rewards. Let's see... I run through dungeons and kill bosses to get a bag that lets me hold gems? Or something that gives me prayer XP? Somewhat amusing given not one single gem exists in Daemonheim, and bones are the last thing I pick up after killing a creature there! ;)

A real Dungeoneering skill could have easily been incorporated into real RS. Level 9 - You learn how to enter the Lumbridge caves without a light source. Level 17 - Gain a +5 Agility capability bonus on dungeon-based obstacles. Level 23 - Slayer creatures in dungeons can still not be damaged without appropriate gear, but will no longer damage you if you attack them Level 29 - Protection prayers used in dungeons drain prayer points 10% slower. Level 35 - Increased chance of gem drops mining in underground areas. Level 44 - You learn how to bypass the vines in the Brimhaven dungeon without needing an axe ... Level 94 - Your expertise in Dungeoneering allows you to open the doors to Waterbirth Dungeon by yourself. And so on. That's off the top of my head in five minutes. They couldn't have done something much better over the course of two years?

Can you people PLEASE give this crap a rest? This thread is not about me, and nothing has changed. Yes, I'm an opinionated loudmouth, and people always think I'm a wonderful commentator when they agree with what I'm saying, and an annoying troll when they don't. I don't have time to respond to every single post made, and I *won't* respond to people who flame me constantly. Just drop it, please. Anyone who thinks I'm so awful can avail themselves of the excellent ignore feature on this board. I do. As far as I am concerned, a skill should be something that, when you train it, you gain a ... skill ... an ability that allows you to play the rest of the game in a new and innovative way. It should be something that gives a new way to get resources useful in other skills, or enables capabilities that dynamically aler how the game works. The rewards should be directly tied to the training of the skill, either in the form of relevant material outputs or unlocking the ability to play differently. A minigame is an optional activity that is separate from most of existing gameplay. It primarily uses existing skills in a new or interesting way. It does not unlock new capabilities. It does not provide direct rewards as a consequence of doing it, but usually rather as specific item rewards after accomplishing a certain number of repetitions of the activity. Now, does this mean there can't be any overlap between these, or there's something wrong with making a skill that's like a minigame? No. But really, a new skill should add a new dimension to existing gameplay, not be something entirely separate from it. That's where I think this largely fails. I'm now level 50 Dungeoneering. What have I accomplished? The ability to train more of Dungeoneering -- that's it. Even if they throw in a few new trinkets at lower levels, this will not feel like a skill to me. It will feel like I am using existing skills to get trinkets: a minigame. Where's the creativity? Why didn't they make it so X level in Dungeoneering helps you in dungeons in "real RS"? That would have made this much more arguably a real skill.

I respond to them to the extent that is practical. I understand that I am opinionated and an easy target. But when every time I post something I get 10 or 15 responses, and then 10 or 15 responses to my replies, I simply can't keep up with all of it. So I try to respond to those who make good arguments or are at least decent enough to avoid overt flaming. This isn't a job and I'm not under any obligation to reply to every post by every person who wants to take a pot shot at me, especially when many of them are just ad hominems or repeats of prior comments. I'm also starting to make more liberal use of the ignore feature here, because I'm not going to waste my time dealing with people who make a pattern of just posting flat insults.

I disagree. (Well at least with your overloads-are-only-useful-in-one-situation part) As currently one of the fastest methods of training herblore, you get tons of these as by-products (although some people actively go out and make them) of the skill. I've seen people start using them for powerslaying, castle wars and as you said boss fighting. They're just not limited to boss fighting exclusively though, just putting that out there. Overloads are fast for training Herblore, but they are already the highest level potion you can make, so unless you're into capes, it doesn't matter all that much. They are also quite expensive to make even with already having the base pots. What else do you use them for?

The pack yak is extremely useful. It changes so much about how you play, from combat to skilling to gathering. Overloads are useful really only in one situation: boss fighting.

Well, sorry if I've given that impression. I certainly think it is possible to be happy with how Jagex does things and have the capacity for critical thought, but most of the responses I get are simply flames from people who are offended by the mere existence of people who disagree with Jagex's way of doing business. And that's pretty irritating as well. And usually when I list specific examples showing they are out of touch, nobody really has much of a response to it (cf the penance trident).

Well, he's not going to. I've already invested quite a bit of time in discussing this today, and I'm sure not wasting a whole lot more of it slogging through that pomous, pedantic wall of gibberish. I do appreciate it, though, when someone make me look concise by comparison. ;) You should at least acknowledge the fact that some of the points you raised are fallacious though. Intrinsic VS extrinsic motivation and the prestige system. It's complicated, but good. The guy who designed it should get a raise. The prestige system is good for what it was designed for, I agree. I just don't think it was such a great thing to have that particular objective. I also agree with you that it is, to some extent, how you look at it. Even changing how they presented this would have helped. For example, they could have made it more like getting a bonus for doing N floors in a row without repeating. Or put new things that only spawn on the lower floors under certain conditions. It feels like too much stick and not enough carrot right now. I think a simple review of Omali's post above will show who is making the personal attacks. The mere fact of being dogpiled doesn't make the person in the minority a troll. I post what I do because I believe it, not to get a rise out of a bunch of obnoxious jerks -- that's just a side benefit. ;)

Well, I give you points for honesty, anyway.

Sorry, that's just not true. What you describe is EXACTLY what EVERY good software company does. In fact, it's what every good company of any sort strives for. It *is* useless, compared to alternatives that already existed or were in the development pipeline when it came out. If the subject here was listening to customers, what were they saying? "Make it useful for maging" or "Boost its melee stats"?

It's not cowardice, it's simply a decision that spending an hour properly responding to your overly verbose post is not worth my time. Anyone who knows me knows I hardly shy away from an argument, but when the other party doesn't even make an effort to make concise, well-thought-out points, it's not worh the bother. Nobody read your post, and they wouldn't read an equally lengthy reply; thus, the only reason to write it would be to convince you, and sorry pal, you're just not that important. ;)

You're kidding, right? Let's just take one example: the penance trident. Some Jagex developer who obviously never plays RS more than he has to, creates this utterly useless item. A whole bunch of players complain that it is useless for maging. They respond by boosting its melee stats. Please explain that to me? It's just one of many, many examples.

It is both idiotic and punitive. It would be one thing to have a room I can't get into. It's quite another to have 2/3 of the floor blocked off because the room I can't get into has two keys in it that I need for the rest of the floor. That just happened to me, and I'm sorry, but it's just poor design. Sorry, I must have missed that. Where did Jagex say this skill was meant only for parties? Well, he's not going to. I've already invested quite a bit of time in discussing this today, and I'm sure not wasting a whole lot more of it slogging through that pomous, pedantic wall of gibberish. I do appreciate it, though, when someone make me look concise by comparison. ;)