DreamReaper

In Clan Wars people don't usually bring food - that's the difference. And I believe your original position was about tanks vs. rune pures; not tanks vs. people with near maxed melee, such as you would be fighting in BH and Clan Wars.

How much exprience have you had with 95+ range on 45 defence? Oh wait, none. I've had a few hundred hours. How much experience have you had with 99 defence tank ranging? Oh wait, none. Go get some real experiences instead of blatantly ignoring the facts. 99 range can and will pick apart 45 defence with any decent outfit. 99 defence will deflect AGS attacks 50%+ of the time. I would know, I've spent the last 2 hours at clan wars testing out AGS, with over 200 specs so far, plus dozens, if not hundreds, of hours of previous testing. Yes, because rune pures always go to clan wars and fight pits and fight level 130's. Not many people bring food into either of those places and people generally bring the best gear they can afford which I can assuredly say they wouldn't do whilst pk'ing. And how often will ranged get good hits on 45 defence? It's easy to eat through a few 20's, and I assume you see the pattern during combat - you hit a whole bunch of 0's and low numbers, then go on a huge string of good hits. If you're only hitting 20's and 30's, this isn't doing much good. The godsword, on the other hand, can easily kill even someone with 99 defence during this period of high hits using the special. Ranged can't finish people off; its high hits are too random. Clan wars and fight pits=/=PvP worlds

You could include it, but since the cost is constant for every herb, it wouldn't change which are the best. Mhmm, that's what I thought. Just making sure it wasn't unintentional.

What about the cost of supercompost? Shouldn't that be included as well?

Compfreak, you're constantly nattering on about how 99 ranged will decimate 45 defence; where's your 45 defence? Oh, and don't give me some bullcrap answer like: "It's obvious that 99 ranged will destroy 99 defence because 45 defence is low and has horrible armor in terms of defence bonus". The typical rune pure set-up has around 180-185 ranged defence, the typical tank setup has about 193 slash defence. Yup, huge difference :roll: . Honestly, just about every tank welfares these days. The difference between the welfare and non-welfare setup is 59 defence points and 800k. No one's going to be willing to cough up 800k for 59 extra defence points when most of the time they die at least twice per day and can't even make the money back they lose on bolts from the kills. Oh,and where did you get this +300 slash defence from? The highest I could get was +298 and that was using a warrior ring and a dfs. Why the hell would you pk in those if you're ranging? I'm going to say this once more - defence isn't going to help you if you die before you can wear your opponent's food out. At 99 defence you can still get killed by a 60+ ags special, a double 30 dds special, and quite easily by 2 decent d claw specials. They don't even have to be close to the max hit to decimate you. Oh, and rune pures have vengeance too. Remember that next time you bring up the fact you can hit 60's with the rune crossbow. Please, all this theory stuff you're saying here is great, but it's blatantly incorrect. Go get some real experiences instead of relying on what would be logical. The logical isn't always true.

To be exact, I believe it's at either 85 or 86 that Dorgesh-Khan is better.

If I found 30kg of pure gold in my front yard it would be worthless. I, myself, couldn't do anything with the gold, so by finding the gold - I DON't profit. I need to find somebody who would be willing to give me a common currency with which I can buy necessities with. I can't buy groceries with gold, can I? The act of finding something does not bring profit; it brings more net worth, and net worth is not money.

On the magic style your max hit will be 1/4th of your magic level. On the ranged and melee style I believe it's the same, but regardless; ranged bonus will never improve your max hit - just accuracy. Strength bonus will always increase you max hit (except maybe with salamander).

1. My arm's patch. 2. Ectophial tele and run to patch. 3. Cabbage-port and run to patch. 4.Skills necklace tele to fishing guild and run to patch. 5. Camelot and run to patch. Store items in catherby bank. If banking is necessary: Use the bank in the Fishing Guild or use the bank in Draynor after you have cabbage-ported and gathered the herbs.

I am not overestimating the power of range. You are drastically overestimating it. 99 range will rip 45 defence to shreds, faster then it can eat. I can easily prayer switch on someone who is trying to whip\range without ever taking unprotected damage, all the time dealing him more damage. Melee does not do well on 99 defence. Range does very, very well on 45 defence. 99 defence isn't going to totally nullify all attacks. 99 defence isn't going to hold up against 99 attack and strength without taking a great deal of damage. And 99 ranged is going to hit just as high on 99 defence as opposed to 45. And I highly doubt you can prayer switch that well. How much PVP have you done? No offense to you, but I'm expecting not much. 99 defence will make 99 attack\strength miss well over 3/4ths the time. 99 range will hit over 3/4ths the time on 45 defence; without prayer, that 45 defence is going to get hit faster then it can eat. Prayer switching on weapons is simple, as anyone who's done a decent amount of PVP will tell you (1,200 hours and counting here, I'm typing this at clan wars) If you're going to count Clan Wars, Castle Wars, and Fist of Guthix; it's easily over 2,000 hours. And pray tell - where did you get your numbers? And prayer switching is not simple. Either you're facing some clueless idiot, or you're not getting hit for high amounts when you're not praying the right prayer.

I am not overestimating the power of range. You are drastically overestimating it. 99 range will rip 45 defence to shreds, faster then it can eat. I can easily prayer switch on someone who is trying to whip\range without ever taking unprotected damage, all the time dealing him more damage. Melee does not do well on 99 defence. Range does very, very well on 45 defence. 99 defence isn't going to totally nullify all attacks. 99 defence isn't going to hold up against 99 attack and strength without taking a great deal of damage. And 99 ranged is going to hit just as high on 99 defence as opposed to 45. And I highly doubt you can prayer switch that well.

Did I say either of the above 3? No, I did not. Point by point. 2 parties bashing at each other - I'm assuming your referring to multi, feel free to clarify if you are not. In that case, the tank ranger has a HUGE advantage with 99 defence, and magic defence, against a rune pure with 45 defence\virtually 0 magic defence. 1 style of combat - Again, you are referring to hybridizing, the use of two or more combat styles. Should the opposing party use magic, the ranger's built in combat triangle advantage would quickly take care of him; we can rule out that possibility. Should the opposing party switch between range and melee, the ranger still have the advantage - he is going to out hit the other players range with 99 range\45 defence with 99 range\99 defence, and his defence will give him the edge in plain old melee vs. range (the point of this thread). As for switching attack styles while during prayer, it's far too easy to switch prayer, meaning the ability to both melee and range is meaningless; one has to stick with the superior offensive power. In this case, it's 99 range\45 defence - which will make quite a poor showing against 99 range\99 defence when coupled with inferior 45 defence outfits! Please do not post again if it is merely to complain 'wahh, your missing my point'. If I'm missing your point, TELL ME HOW. Saying 'your missing my point; I'm referring to meleers who suddenly switch to mystic armor and mage, not switch to d hide and range' will get your point across, not simply complaining about me missing it. Partiy also refers to an individual person; not necessarily a group of people. And of course, in a non-hybrid, 1vs1 fight a tank will win. The ranger will not necessarily out-hit the other person. You're overestimating ranged and underestimating melee. And you do realize that there's a slight delay when you click the prayer and when it activates, which makes prayer switching well somewhat of a challenge. The big problem here is that ranged doesn't have a good way to kill people on command - melee does. It doesn't matter that you can last longer in a fight if you get killed early in the fight.

Ok, I'll try to explain it... You've played Fist of Guthix, and I assume you've used magic and melee, correct? You know how your opponent switches his prayers to deal with your attacks, and you switch your attack style to combat that. That's prayer switching. Now, you know how often magic splashes on d hide outside of FoG, and seeing as tanks typically only use ranged and magic; you can just slap on protection from ranged and laugh at their maximum hit of 30. Now, say you're a maxed rune pure. You're going to be very near the level of a maxed tank. As a rune pure, you're going to have very high ranged, attack, and strength; meaning that unlike the tank, if your opponent just prays ranged or melee, they're still going to get hit for some big numbers. Also, when you hybrid in PvP worlds, you're not going to be switching every single piece of your gear when you change styles. Most people will wear Ahrim's skirt and switch their top depending on what style they're going to use (fighter torso for melee, Karil's top for ranged, Ahrim's top for mage) and switch to a rune defender when they want to melee and a mage's/Zamorak book when they want to mage or range. So your saying that a rune pure is > tank during prayer because he hits higher? That has nothing to do with prayer (and for the record, melee max with whip + prayer is around 24; range max with rune c bow and prayer is 36). The big difference is that the ranger has an extremely high hit rate on rune armor and 45 defence. Take my word for it - 45 defence will be eating almost constantly to try and keep up with the hits of 99 range. 99-99 melee stats vs. 99 defence + vengance are nothing like 99 range vs. 45 defence. [/hide] You're still not getting what I'm trying to say. Then your not illustrating yourself clearly. What I'm saying is that a 99 ranger will be hitting a rune pure as fast as he can eat, giving him little time to attack; hence, the ranger has the clear advantage - and the meleer can hardly touch him. If the meleer is also 99 range (at which point it become range tank vs. range tank) and is praying, the ranger can easily switch prayers faster then the melee\ranger can switch weapons, and the ranger is dealing much more damage then the meleer\ranger due to his continuous use of a superior combat style with far higher defence and more optimized armor. I'm illustrating myself clearly enough; you're just not looking past the fact that not all PvP combat is like it is outside of the G.E. and in Edgeville. Not all Pking involved 2 parties bashing at each other. Not all pking involves people using 1 style of combat.

[hide=] Ok, I'll try to explain it... You've played Fist of Guthix, and I assume you've used magic and melee, correct? You know how your opponent switches his prayers to deal with your attacks, and you switch your attack style to combat that. That's prayer switching. Now, you know how often magic splashes on d hide outside of FoG, and seeing as tanks typically only use ranged and magic; you can just slap on protection from ranged and laugh at their maximum hit of 30. Now, say you're a maxed rune pure. You're going to be very near the level of a maxed tank. As a rune pure, you're going to have very high ranged, attack, and strength; meaning that unlike the tank, if your opponent just prays ranged or melee, they're still going to get hit for some big numbers. Also, when you hybrid in PvP worlds, you're not going to be switching every single piece of your gear when you change styles. Most people will wear Ahrim's skirt and switch their top depending on what style they're going to use (fighter torso for melee, Karil's top for ranged, Ahrim's top for mage) and switch to a rune defender when they want to melee and a mage's/Zamorak book when they want to mage or range. So your saying that a rune pure is > tank during prayer because he hits higher? That has nothing to do with prayer (and for the record, melee max with whip + prayer is around 24; range max with rune c bow and prayer is 36). The big difference is that the ranger has an extremely high hit rate on rune armor and 45 defence. Take my word for it - 45 defence will be eating almost constantly to try and keep up with the hits of 99 range. 99-99 melee stats vs. 99 defence + vengance are nothing like 99 range vs. 45 defence. [/hide] You're still not getting what I'm trying to say.

Ok, I'll try to explain it... You've played Fist of Guthix, and I assume you've used magic and melee, correct? You know how your opponent switches his prayers to deal with your attacks, and you switch your attack style to combat that. That's prayer switching. Now, you know how often magic splashes on d hide outside of FoG, and seeing as tanks typically only use ranged and magic; you can just slap on protection from ranged and laugh at their maximum hit of 30. Now, say you're a maxed rune pure. You're going to be very near the level of a maxed tank. As a rune pure, you're going to have very high ranged, attack, and strength; meaning that unlike the tank, if your opponent just prays ranged or melee, they're still going to get hit for some big numbers. Also, when you hybrid in PvP worlds, you're not going to be switching every single piece of your gear when you change styles. Most people will wear Ahrim's skirt and switch their top depending on what style they're going to use (fighter torso for melee, Karil's top for ranged, Ahrim's top for mage) and switch to a rune defender when they want to melee and a mage's/Zamorak book when they want to mage or range.

[hide=] Err.. What about protect from melee makes it harder to use then protect from range? Can't that tank just protect from melee too? dd++ on 99 defence = 0-0, I would know. AGS = well over 50% miss rate; max hit of 43 with protect from melee. Range tanks can hit 60s without a speccing weapon (36 with prayer). You've forgotten a big thing though - you can't have it all. If your meleer has 45 defence, he's not going to be doing much besides eating, even with prayer. If he has 70, he's still going to get ripped apart, but he's only going to have 90 attack\strength, dropping his max to very close to the rangers with an AGS and guaranteeing him zeros when he tries to spec. You know what I mean by prayer-switching, right? Tanks are only going to use 2 styles when they hybrid, and it's quite obvious when they're going to range as opposed to mage. Everyone else is going to be using 3; it's quite difficult to defend yourself from 'surprise' attacks. Also, the d stone bolt special isn't always going to happen when you want it to; don't act like you can hit 60s on command. Furthermore, most hybriding is going to be happening in at least level 20 wilderness - defeating the issue of level difference. What are you possibly talking about? I have NEVER seen a 45 defence rune pure suddenly put on mystic and begin barraging me (not that it would matter, I would take him down in seconds). I have also never see one put on d hide and a good shield and begin ranging me. I can prayer switch just as easily as them, giving them a total advantage of 0. [/hide] Ehh... you have no idea what I'm talking about so I'll just drop it.

Ok. Then we should make natures craftable only when you complete Nature's Spirit and give a nature talisman as a reward because the quest has absolutely nothing to do with crafting runes... AT ALL. :roll:

Ever played "Civilizations"? One of the best strategy games ever, and the combat model is very much alike that of Armies of Gielinor. Sometimes things have to be random.

Err.. What about protect from melee makes it harder to use then protect from range? Can't that tank just protect from melee too? dd++ on 99 defence = 0-0, I would know. AGS = well over 50% miss rate; max hit of 43 with protect from melee. Range tanks can hit 60s without a speccing weapon (36 with prayer). You've forgotten a big thing though - you can't have it all. If your meleer has 45 defence, he's not going to be doing much besides eating, even with prayer. If he has 70, he's still going to get ripped apart, but he's only going to have 90 attack\strength, dropping his max to very close to the rangers with an AGS and guaranteeing him zeros when he tries to spec. You know what I mean by prayer-switching, right? Tanks are only going to use 2 styles when they hybrid, and it's quite obvious when they're going to range as opposed to mage. Everyone else is going to be using 3; it's quite difficult to defend yourself from 'surprise' attacks. Also, the d stone bolt special isn't always going to happen when you want it to; don't act like you can hit 60s on command. Furthermore, most hybriding is going to be happening in at least level 20 wilderness - defeating the issue of level difference.

I know quite a few maxed tanks, and yes, they are incredible... in 1vs1. That's the problem with tanks; their awesomeness wears off once they try to hybrid. Tanks are incredibly easy to prayer switch against as they only use 2 styles, they have no reliable KO ability, and their defence only can do so much; you're still going to get huge dds/ags specials on 99 defence.

The only reason I would buy a bgs, is if I had extra junk and wanted to get rid of it by lending my bgs.

Just for smithing.

[hide=] Achievement of the Year award? I mean hell, thats just pathetic. Clicking Expert? Dude you need to get laid. May I ask what's wrong with that? Your going to be in for a shock when you hit the real world, where what you can accomplish and how smart you are matters far more then how hard you can party. All Work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. I think you are a perfect example of that. You seem to be quite.....well dull. Sad, lonely. i have pitty for you. That's nice to know. I'm deeply touched by your altruism. Feel free to google "define:altruism". Now, back to this thread: Green dragons at maxed stats are 650k per hour; you can scale them down to yours as applies. Avansies, again at maxed stats, are around 620-630k per hour; scale them down to your stats to determine estimated earnings. Im over this. Im older than having a lame flame war over the internet with some 30 year old loser who is unhappy about his life and is tying to convince himself that he is happy. You need to see a shrink. ill give you my card ;) And OT: with your ranged level you could expect 300k money a hour, if you concentrate. [/hide] I got 400k p/h without concentrating at relatively the same ranged level as him. Oh and Compfreak; glad to see you use the altruism thing :lol: . I thought you would.

Not a chance. Addy bolts out hit them. Addy bolts out hit obby rings too. My point was that they only hit 1 or 2 less than the rings, are just as fast , but cost half as much. That was an incorrect statement. Both adamant bolts and hunter's crossbow with long kebbit bolts (which is actually more expensive then addy and roughly the same speed) are much worse then throwing rings. I assumed that you meant out hit as in hit higher than; my mistake.

Not a chance. Addy bolts out hit them. Addy bolts out hit obby rings too. My point was that they only hit 1 or 2 less than the rings, are just as fast , but cost half as much. How many hours have you tested this, exactly? I've had 70+ hours of ACCURATE testing. And by accurate I mean 'stopwatch and screenshots'. Not to be condescending or anything, but you do realize I've gotten more range XP at avansies alone then you have in your entire RS carrier? Sorry for coming across as an arrogant jerk, but it irritates me when people make irrational statements obviously not based on real world tests. Plus, my range level (and range level when testing, I've leveled from 78-98 almost exclusively at avansies\spirit mages) is much closer to his then yours, indicating that my results would be closer in terms of accuracy and hitting power. You notice that I never said that you will get X amount of experience in X amount of time, right? I simply stated that the hunter's crossbow could be an alternative to obby rings. Why must you be so closed minded about new suggestions that could provide a viable alternative? And honestly, it takes not even 5 shots of each weapon to determine the speed. I figured out the max hits from use in Fist of Guthix; for both of them they maxed about every 3rd hit. That's wonderful to know. Unfortunately, max hits don't quite represent the entire spectrum, and XP rates over 40 hours tend to be slightly more accurate then 'i used 5 shots in FOG and this ones max hit is higher so its better!' And FOG =\= Avansies. Test the monster, don't test somewhere that has almost nothing to do with Avansies. You can't even pot at FOG, and I doubt you carefully recorded rates with the standard 10% range boost and full void equipment set identical to the one used at avansies. [/hide] Like I said before, I simply stated that it could be a viable alternative; I never said that I had definitive proof that it was an awesome weapon that got 400k xp p/h. And also, not using ranged potions is simply taking out a variable. You're not at the same exact ranged level every second that you're potted, which could lead to skewed results. And whether or not I used the void wouldn't matter, it adds 10% to both of them if I used it; and if I didn't use it, I simply wouldn't have that 10%; it's the same ratio (this goes for 10% ranged as well). Lastly, the 5 shots was simply for speed, not power, and you notice I said that the obby rings hit higher, right? Ok, I'll show you my original point again. Obby rings will earn you around 200k more profit and 25k more XP then hunter crossbow. I have facts and numbers to back it up. What are you trying to argue for? Ok, thank you. If you could have said that in the beginning none of this would have happened. I stated that I thought the hunter's crossbow could have been an alternative; I was wrong.