Jebrim

Sad. How you think this is not about self-respect after all I've said I have no idea. This is about having PRIDE in a REAL achievement that was a hard ass [censored] challenge. I'm not unhappy with my own training btw. Btw, every skill cape you aim for or the maxed cape or completionist cape are more or less trying to raise your social status within RuneScape as a player. You're a noob unless you're maxed is more or less the idea these days. The truth of the matter is, you're a noob if you need to find ways to cheat to get a pretty little number. You don't deserve any pride or respect for sht "achievements". I'm curious as to your reasons for even playing RS or skilling to begin with, and for maintaining such gameplay. If music were available legally for free, would you pay to download it? I've done so on multiple occasions. It's not that foreign of an idea. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'll give you an example. There's a music group I enjoy called Knife Party. Their initial EP was released on iTunes for $0.69 per song, as that is the least iTunes allows you to charge, save for a free one-song promotional deal. The entire EP was, however, available on their Facebook page for free. My point was that it would be pointless to purchase the songs when they are available for free, just to say you worked the hardest or put the most into your music library. Music was a bad example to use, since buying/not buying it isn't about personal achievement, it's about how much you respect the artist. [/hide] If my favourite artist, whom I respect a lot, offers a free download of a song of his, I will opt to use that one instead of paying elsewhere. You're a fool if you'd pass on an opportunity such as that simply because you 'respect' an artist. It's free. It's legal. It's practical. OT: Grattis to Paperbag on 200M Hunter. This isn't really comparable to your said situation tbh.

Wow, you really don't read do you? Here's 2 quotes of mine from earlier: I was using equal Xp's with different training methods to provide an easy method of comparison. It gets a lot more complicated when you have someone with a lot of Xp from easy skills compared to someone with low Xp from harder skillers (or methods). For example, compare myself with Paulrat3. Am I better or worse? I think it's too complicated to determine easily and would be open to heavy debate. The neat thing about RS is that there's no almost no ceiling for how far you can progress in the game. You don't need to force yourself to be inefficient to make your achievements better. Unless you're Suomi, you're not going to reach a cap any time in your RuneScape career. Don't confuse my earlier examples with me believing you have to be inefficient to be a good player. My point has always been that efficiency is not the standard to judge by. Here's a simpler view of how I value skills, in no particular order: More RS time taken using slower method > less RS time taken using faster method Faster Xp/hr in a method > lower Xp/hr in same method More nolifing done > less nolifing done More attention/effort required > less attention/effort required How much each one weighs against one another can vary per person and is heavily debatable. Is 150m Woodcutting Xp at ivy equal to 150m Woodcutting Xp dropsplitting pines? Does the extra amount of time required make up for the less attention required? Or would you need 200m Woodcutting Xp from ivy to equal 150m at pines? Or would you need less, say 100m, since you value more time taken far more than how afk it is? These are the questions that should be debated. The simplest way to state it is "The more challenging it is, the more impressive it is." The biggest question is figuring out what is more challenging, as people have different opinions. Being macro-efficient isn't at all challenging, not to the degree of these other issues, and therefore isn't really relevant to the discussion imo.

I don't really see the problem. People use efficiency as a layman's term when talking about RS, but you could just as easily define a ratio if you wanted to. Your progress towards goal X in time t/Maximum possible progress towards goal X in time t. That's what I would think of if I were to define efficiency in RS. If someone achieved 200m mining through iron ore, and another did it at LRC, the iron ore guy's achievement isn't greater than the LRC guy. They both achieved the exact same thing, only one of them did it faster. For sure the iron ore guy has to work longer, but that doesn't make his achievement any greater. Lol? Arbitrarily Jagex-given Xp rates are completely irrelevant. At the most, they're only a tool to help measure the real thing, the work actually done. If you pretend Xp did not exist and then looked at the history of the actual gameplay for a player, you'd get a far better way of judging a player's achievements. Tbh this shouldn't even be something I have to argue about, as it's obvious and is the de facto standard accepted by most people I know. The harder something is to achieve, the more people respect it. What you're saying is like saying Gertjaars and Zarfot were equal because they both had 2b Overall Xp or that Blocks is better than Lover Romeo because he has more Overall Xp than him.

The point is to distinguish different kinds of efficiency to make conversation clearer. Macro = best method for a skill Micro = best xp/hr in a method Efficiency as a word is always relative to a perceived goal. If your goal is 5b Overall Xp in the least amount of time possible, then you want to be both heavily macro and micro efficient. That's Suomi. Myself, on the other hand, tend to give up on macro sometimes in favor to experience some less used content and to work on my micro skills.

You can be really macro-efficient, but you'll need more Xp to equal someone who is less macro-efficient. Pre-Runespan, a member would need a lot more than 13m Xp to equal a pure f2p who did 99 Rc at airs. My point here is that I'm not encouraging or discouraging being macro-efficient. I'm saying it's absolutely irrelevant and that you need to look deeper than just the gross Xp you see on the hiscores. I've repeated this a couple times now, worded differently, so I hope you guys can get that point. Another thing that raises someone's stance in my eyes is if they've done a lot of heavy nolifing. To many people it wouldn't matter, but doing long hours with little sleep and fighting sleep is actually a very tough process. Of course not everybody has the free time available to even attempt such a thing, but almost all that do have said free time never actually do any intense sleep-depriving nolifing. It takes a lot of skill and willpower to achieve the best hours and records for week and month on Runetracker if you're doing it legitly (no stored Xp).

An 'achievement' means you overcame a challenge. Outside of just the context of RuneScape, if X goal was really easy, then there isn't really any pride or sense of achievement and one would have little desire to really respect that. If Y goal was really hard and challenging, then there is a real sense of achievement. I'm not criticizing efficiency as a concept, just that it isn't relevant to the concept of achievements. Using it (macroefficiency) as a tool of measuring how good someone's achievements are is absurd. Microefficiency on the other hand is different and certainly can be used to a degree to measure skill. The difference between the two is one is a measure of skill and the other is simply you using the best overall method (runespan vs zmi), which isn't really challenging as a concept on its own. I criticize Green098 as well because she is not only macro-inefficient, but also heavily micro-inefficient (maging in bandos lol). Her ignorance is like a facepalm and she's not even doing it for any sense of prolonging it or a better achievement, just because it looks cool. I still do respect the heavy amount of time she has invested into this game, even if I do find her skilling methods laughable.

We did that before, around a year ago. I was around 11k and change then. I assume I'd be around 10k or so now. EDIT: I just asked Gemeos and he said 11,422 hours, weird. Rates changed which affected it negatively I guess. That'd place me here: 10 . Chilly - 10,843 - 21,832,478,220 11 . Klonki - 11,197 - 21,922,663,172 12 . Pope712 - 11,333 - 15,192,268,080 [here] 13 . Telmomarques - 11,564 - 6,107,645,550 14 . Roger Al - 11,634 - 21,397,086,610 15 . Kngkyle - 11,849 - 8,752,557,898

Training past 99 must seem inconceivable to you then.

Players don't necessarily have to be super inefficient to play this game or have impressive stats. If you're efficient and are overcoming real challenges at the same time, then you're going also going to eventually get a lot of Xp as well (e.g. Suomi). Having a lot of Xp alone does not qualify or disqualify you as a good player. Having more than another does not necessarily make you better or worse. There are underlying things to look at. Drw is a far better player than Blocks for example.

If I had money, which I really don't, I'd pay good money to sponsor someone to do 200m RC at ZMI today. To answer your question, they're the same or possibly even the person who hated it might marginally be more impressive (they were able to have the self-discipline to achieve something that was particularly tough for them). You focus too much on the fun/not fun aspect imo. Top skillers care about their achievements, but many also choose to take the lazy way out and have fun doing non-RS things while they get Xp on RS. Overcoming big challenges is what is impressive, not how much fun someone is able to have doing something. Having fun might be a good ideal, but it's not equivalent with being more impressive. Your botting comment worries me. I get the impression that you would bot if it wasn't against the rules. If so, I think you really miss the point of skilling.

Here's a test for you all. Which is more impressive? - 170m RC Xp at ZMI - 200m RC Xp at Runespan (100% afk or wizard hunting, doesn't matter) What about if you added in someone who did Runespan while they were on and botted while they were off (school, sleep, etc.)? Say 50m RC Xp legit and 150m botted. This is even more efficient than the prior two, since less work and time is invested. If you were to rank these based on efficiency, it'd be something like this: Runespan botter Runespan legit ZMI legit If you were to rank them based on total RC Xp, it'd be the following: Runespan legit - (tied) - Runespan botter ZMI legit If you were to rank them based on the amount of effort required, though, you'd get very different results: ZMI legit Runespan legit Runespan botter Which of these most closely represents your original answer on which is more impressive? RuneScape skilling is about obtaining achievements. You're going to feel more pride in an achievement that was harder to obtain than one that was easy and required little work. You're going to get more respect for the harder achievement as well. It's about the challenge. When I am looking at applications for my clan and listening to interviews, I'm looking for things where people want to put in a lot of effort. If someone applies with just 50m Wcing Xp gained from ivy, I'm not going to accept them. Achievements require work and I need to be at least moderately impressed before I'd let someone in.

Some people actually do that for certain 200m's. Most people won't though, or even have to, because they could just be efficient and get more Xp in the process, for the same level of work. My point was to look at the underlying effort invested, not just some Xp number.

You guys are really annoying me. IT'S ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WORK/EFFORT A PLAYER HAS PUT IN THAT DETERMINES THEIR VALUE. It has nothing to do with being the first to all 200m's or the person with the most Xp or any of that. RS is about grind and if an achievement of Xp is gotten that required both more time and more attention than another same or less amount Xp is achieved by someone else that required less effort/time, then the former is worth more. You cannot judge a player just by how much Xp they have or even if they're just using the efficient methods. You have to look deeper. If someone else did 5b Xp without donations using mostly the same methods as Suomi, then yes, Suomi's donations would play a devaluing role when compared relative to this other player. But as things are now, there is nobody that is quite competitive to Suomi. Suomi has done so much non-afk training with so much focus with so much nolifing at such a consistent pace and in such an immense amount that there's really just nobody out there to compare him to. Most other top players look like a joke in comparison.

I'm sorry if it came across that way. Feel free to tell me if there is another way to measure it - I was simply saying what I could see as a viable option for determining the 'best' player. My reasoning is that while one's personality may be great, the nicest person every could play RuneScape and if they were inefficient, they simply would not be the best RuneScape player. What other ways to measure are there, save efficiency or total xp? Well I judge by the amount of effort required for all of their stats, not just by Xp. I valuate both the Xp rate they took for various skills, their skill in getting a high rate in said method, and how afk said method was. How much they could nolife is also another plus. Another important factor is how much time overall was required for their total stats. Someone with 200m Rc from ZMI and 200m Agility from Barb and 200m Mining from LRC superheating (200m Mage and 200m Smith) would be better than pretty much every player under 2b Overall Xp, in my opinion, and even better than some of those over it.

Okay, that's just stupid lmfao. He did not use any money to increase his Fishing, Agility, or Mining gains except for bait for Fishing and pouches for Fish/Mine, which is all negligible and made up from banking anyways. He did not do BA. Something I don't think you guys are understanding is that for the past few years, Suomi has had the 2nd most hours/year put into RS out of every player in the game. If you've stalked Runetracker enough, this should be obvious. On top of that, though, he is also one of the biggest players in refusing to waste time/Xp on RS, meaning no standing around or partying or even ranking up people in your friends chat. He's always been super picky about all that. He has by far surpassed every player in RS and imo is the first person to hold rank 1 that I truly believed deserves it. I've long criticized many of the buyable noobs who held #1 that simply got cheap Xp without having put in as much work as some lower ranks (like Suomi at the time).

^This You guys forget that Suomi has every slow skill at 200m Xp atm. No other player out there has more than 2 slow 200m's. If Elvis, Jake, Elias, or Jdel had spent their time doing slow skills like Suomi, they wouldn't be anywhere near him. He would have a huge lead over every other player to 200m all skills in terms of hours regardless. Even if you pretend he had no buyable 200m's done at all and looked solely at his non-buyables, they'd still be far more impressive than anything the other top players have.

^This Btw, part of the c2 method requires the host to gate all trees along the way. It isn't just people clearing the dungeon. Typically it's one person gates trees and one person clears and one person woodcuts. This is the method clans used for the Jagex Cup and where Suomi got the idea from.

Grind is good, the end.

Well not even ranks matter anymore, the reason people train past 99 is for the prestige of the Xp itself, not for any tangible reward.

Grinding 200ms is fun? Yes

It's also more efficient to bot while you sleep or to account share. If these two are cheating, so is buying spins.

Well there's only so many spins they could buy a day, so whilst spinning might be efficient, the xp you can get a day is also capped. Whereas straight up skilling isn't. And a job would take a lot of time up, meaning even with your newfound rwting capabilities, someone who just skills could probably do better than you anyway. There's also the question of if these players get a job, whether they would view spins as important enough to spend a lot of money on daily when they have proven themselves perfectly capable of skilling without RWT. Thing is, most people wouldn't even consider it as an option because, to them, it's not legit.

Dragonseance has stated that he wouldn't mind buying spins for Xp if it's more efficient time-wise to make the money irl and then buy spins vs actually training.

Overall Xp can be very deceiving. Jake was never close to Suomi. 200m Agility, Fishing, and Mining together took Suomi about 8k hours to complete. The fact that he managed to complete it all in under 2 years shows how good he is. It would take most other top players 2-4 years to do the same.

What about Drumgun? Drumgun needs 9,860 hours while Chilly needs 11,235 hours. A 1400 difference is relatively insignificant when compared to the total time each need. Furthermore, Drumgun is not in the least being very efficient with his Xp gains this past year. I would stick with the current trend, which is that the difference between Drumgun's and Chilly's time remaining is decreasing.