abellus

I see Jagex has adopted the let's make our game like Call of Duty because Call of Duty gets sales formula. Also: What the hell happened to Jagex's 'play less Runescape' campaign? I guess it was only a marketting gimmick.

Updates need to be judged-- the term 'unethical' is perfectly fine to describe certain updates. I don't understand your first argument. Essentially, you are arguing that since everyone else is doing it, Jagex is justified in doing it too? That's not a valid argument at all. Keeping a game alive is a fine practice by itself. But when you have to sacrafice the game's core integrity to do so, the game just isn't worth holding on to anymore. I won't accuse you of being blinded by nostalgia, because I don't know that. But there are certainly many people on this board that are. They can't see past the fact that Runescape is no longer an RPG and is now Facebook with swords. They have so much time invested in the game that they'll support any decision Jagex makes to artificially prolong the life of the game so long as they get to keep their maxed character. I mean, come on, active users have been declining since, what, 2009? The claim "Runescape is better than ever" falls flat on its face.

That's nonsense. SOF is unethical. Solomon is unethical. Bonds are unethical. Just because RWT existed before Jagex endorsed it doesn't make it right. Jagex has no justification for supporting it. Where are you going to draw the line? When Jagex starts selling level 99s for bonds? When they start selling characters for bonds? When they start selling quests for bonds? Hell, what's stopping them. They're already selling GP. All that would be totally ethical in your eyes, because everyone is already doing it, right?

But in their quest to restore fairness to RuneScape, they've actually just introduced the most unfair thing a developer could possibly introduce... buying coins for cash. They've accomplished the complete opposite of their original goal. A game isn't worth playing when lil' bill gates jr. down the street can buy more GP than you could ever earn playing the game legitimately.

If Jagex had implemented this 5 years ago there would be 500-man riots in every world. Yet, its implemented now and there is hardly a peep. We've gotten so used to all the little unethical things Jagex has done over the years that we aren't even bothered by an update like this anymore. I mean, come on. Jagex is now flat out endorsing the idea that the wealthy in real life deserve more power in the game. They've completely nullified the 'RPG' aspect of their game. Doesn't this update deserve more outrage than its currently recieving?

If there's one thing you can always rely on Jagex to do, it's scaremongering. Seriously? Is this their strategy to combat RWT? Scare the population with the big bad boogieman terrorist RWT?

I almost don't want to believe it, but that's likely the case. They are a business after all-- gotta keep up that public image.

Oh, and I guess we can't ignore the fact that jagex is now fully endorsing the idea that the wealthier you are in real-life, the wealthier you shall be ingame. And don't give me that crap "well... technically we're not selling GP directly..."

Geez, sometimes I wake up and see these updates and wish Runescape had just died 5 years ago. It's like they're trying to repair a dilapidated house with masking tape. You can only use so much tape until it all collapses. This update will work for the first few months while RWTers adjust, but eventually you'll be back to a situation where RWT prices are cheaper than bond prices. Sure, it's a bit more risky to buy from RWTers, but the prices will balance out in such a way that it will be worth the risk. Remember: Jagex has to pay their workers first-world salaries. RWTers can get away with paying their workers third-world salaries. RWTers will always be in a position to win a price war against Jagex, no exceptions.

The problem isn't that the minigames are boring (well that is a problem for some...), but that there is very little incentive to continue playing them. There's only so much you can offer players before some other minigame/activity beats it out. You can reward them with items, or you can provide them cheap XP or fast XP There's the problem there: that's only two dimensions of rewards. If the minigame doesn't offer cheap or fast XP, it gets old fast. As others have said, Jagex should remove the dead minigames. But you try convincing a developer to delete their own content. Or they could just make good minigames. There are only a few minigames that are actually fun on their own, without having to rely on their rewards to keep them active. Castle Wars, Soul Wars, Stealing Creation, etc. are all classics... all the others are underdeveloped trash that are either boring or frustrating.

There. Right there. You're doing the same thing as everyone else in this thread. You're using quack psychology. You've made a claim, now back it up. Just because you've been taught all your life that saying the 'n' word somehow encourages racism doesn't make it true. I'm not showing my proof until your group shows yours. You made the claim first. A note: some of my sources are from scholarly databases with paid subscriptions. I won't be able to show all of them unless you are subscribed to the same service.

"The only reason you find them offensive is (because you've determined they're offensive) because they're offensive"? Indeed. Victorian-age code of ethics? http://en.wikipedia....e_Victorian_era "During the era symbolized by the reign of British monarch Queen Victoria, women did not have suffrage rights, the right to sue, or the right to own property". Yeah I'd call my code of ethics Victorian-age, that pretty much sums it up.. What? What does this have anything to do with women? When I said Victorian-age code of ethics I was referring to the absurd age-old idea that we as a society must find certain words offensive and that our children should be kept away from these certain words. Apologies If I've misinterpreted what you meant, but my interpretation of "Victorian code of ethics" would be the code of ethics used in the Victorian period. As this debate is all about (in my eyes) whether Jagex should be allowed to censor offensive language that isn't necessarily full of swear words, but could be seen as discriminatory in some way, I assumed you were referring to code of ethics in the sense of attitudes towards women/other races/homosexuals etc. Apologies If I've misunderstood. In terms of what you meant, I'm not sure society does feel a need to find certain words offensive, it's more that certain words have offensive connotations, hence our children should be kept away from these words, which will eventually lead (in an ideal world) to the words no longer being used. I agree that swear words actually don't do much harm (besides the n-word), but I do think that keeping racist terms or other discriminatory terms out of the game is probably a good thing. No. In an ideal world, there wouldn't be any censorship at all. Forcing the censorship of a word doesn't erase discrimination- its asinine to claim so. Just like how I can say the word "[bleep]" and be perfectly accepting of homosexuals, one can say the 'n' word and have no qualms with the black race. The social sciences tell us that discrimination arises from a poor education, poor parenting, and a poor environment in general, not from saying the 'n' word or the 'f' word or the 'q' word or whatever word must be concocted to describe some group of people. I know this because I've had formal debates over this very subject. It's easy to invent your own psychology and claim the usage of certain words fuel discrimiationatory attitudes- its harder to do the actual research and see that this is a complete lie. Stop treating the human race like a bunch of primitive apes that have to be duct taped into sumbission by your high-and-mighty political correctness. Censorship never works.

"The only reason you find them offensive is (because you've determined they're offensive) because they're offensive"? Indeed. Victorian-age code of ethics? http://en.wikipedia....e_Victorian_era "During the era symbolized by the reign of British monarch Queen Victoria, women did not have suffrage rights, the right to sue, or the right to own property". Yeah I'd call my code of ethics Victorian-age, that pretty much sums it up.. What? What does this have anything to do with women? When I said Victorian-age code of ethics I was referring to the absurd age-old idea that we as a society must find certain words offensive and that our children should be kept away from these certain words.

I think you mean modern day, progressive political correctness. Everyone's a victim.

What the hell? How are people taking Jagex's side on this? There's a perfectly good filter system that gives you the choice to block all those meanie bully words you might not like. Are Jagex really assuming with this update that we as players are too stupid to know how to turn it on? Really, what is the point of this update? Also, why the hell can't we just censor the words and be done with it? You could have a guy dropping the F-bomb every 2 words and so long as its censored **** there's no reason to take any action against him, because no one is hearing the meanie words being said in the first place. Muting him won't make anyone more safe. Second of all, grow up. They're words. The only reason you find them offensive is because you've determined they're offensive because they're offensive. Stop infecting Runescape with your backwards Victorian-age code of ethics please. There's just no logic to this update at all, unless Jagex are trying to appear to be a safe little MMO haven for kids with helicopter parents.

This it the system you're supporting: A policeman thinks someone is guilty, throws them in prison without a trial, and then after they've served some jail time the trial is held to determine their innocence. I think you missed my point. If just one corrupt player moderator is abusing his power, the system has failed. And I know you don't like me comparing player moderators to police officers, but that's essentially what they are right now- they're a group of citizens in a society whom have been given certain powers over normal citizens. The difference between real life and Runescape, however, is that there doesn't have to be a police officer position in Runescape at all. Normal citizens can report criminals, and criminals can be "sent" to a courtroom (jagex) without needing to be physically forced to attend. There is no need for a police officer. So here is my question to you: What can a player moderator offer to the Runescape community that a normal player can't?

Expand the team to another 8000? Are you suggesting we transform Runescape into a police state? Expanding and allocating more power to an organisation that is already partly corrupt would be ruinous to the Runescape community. Player moderators should have never existed in the first place. Regular players should not be given the power to mute other players. It's a system that assumes that every single player moderator won't abuse his power at some point in time. Considering the number of player moderators who are frequently paid off to mute certain individuals that big-boss chatroom leaders don't like, I'd say the system has failed. I tense up when I see a player moderator at the Grand Exchange, because I know that's where they usually do their dirty business. Why should I have to be terrified of my fellow players in a safe zone? I know the grand majority of player moderators are very nice, non-corrupt people. But the system just isn't worth it when you have even a few dozen who abuse their powers on a regular basis. Scrap it entirely. I don't care if you value justice more than your average player, you're still human and you still make mistakes like every non-Pmod player. Denying that fact is ignorance on your part. Let the developers control the justice system in their own game.

Errr ... so you actually want a buggy game where game-breaking oversights can have massive impacts on the economy or result in the loss of all your items? [hide]Surprise, it's still around![/hide] [/hide] No, what I want is for Jagex to stop being so goddam safe with everything. Just like when you go out to drive your car to the grocery store, you're taking the chance that you'll be hit by another car and killed, but the benefits of that car trip outweigh the risks. Jagex, they are terrified of that car trip. In fact, they don't even own a car. Jagex is like the grandma who's locked herself in her own house, removed all the furniture, sanded down all sharp corners, tied herself to the only remaining chair, and calls her son every couple of days to personally deliver her some cold, bland chicken broth that he spoonfeeds her with his own hands (because she could choke on the spoon). Jagex used to take risks. And risks come with losses (glitches), I realize. Sometimes even huge, game changing glitches. But those glitches are rare. They don't happen all that often. The benefits outweigh the risks. Nowadays, they lock themselves in their office and only release updates that appeal to the lowest common demoninator, AKA children who Jagex thinks they have to protect with their children-like themes. Implementing EoC was the biggest risk they have ever taken. With it have come some huge glitches. And lo and behold, it's turned out to be possibly the best risk they've ever taken. EoC was a risk? No. I disagree completely. I didn't let Jagex sell me that crap. The EoC model was the WoW model. It wasn't a risk, it was an update that was based off a very, very well-tested model. Jagex opted to adopt the strategy of every other MMO developer ever- make your game more like WoW. There was no risk involved. EoC was not unique in any respect, it was WoW with a different name. The fact that the EoC "model" was well-tested is irrelevant. It's a huge game-changer to RS, which makes it a risk. And I still don't understand how it was a risk. Just because it was a game-changer doesn't mean its a risk. The fact that the WoW model is very well-tested is in fact relevant: it saves Jagex from biting their nails over whether EoC would catch on. They knew it would. Exactly what risk was involved in EoC? And I know your answer: because the Runescape playerbase was used to oldschool combat. EoC was a risk because those players might potentially leave the game- and you're right. Many did. But the community doesn't matter to Jagex, they've proved that time and time again. So long as the number of players stays about the same, Jagex are happy. Just look what Jagex did with Ace of Spades - they killed off the old community so much the old community splintered and made their own website, forum, and game. Jagex aren't developers anymore - they bow to the will of their investors. And their investors want as much money as they can get with little to no risk. EoC was WoW repackaged. Dumbed down, bland, button-mashing, WoW combat that MMO players have seen time and time and time again.

Errr ... so you actually want a buggy game where game-breaking oversights can have massive impacts on the economy or result in the loss of all your items? [hide]Surprise, it's still around![/hide] [/hide] No, what I want is for Jagex to stop being so goddam safe with everything. Just like when you go out to drive your car to the grocery store, you're taking the chance that you'll be hit by another car and killed, but the benefits of that car trip outweigh the risks. Jagex, they are terrified of that car trip. In fact, they don't even own a car. Jagex is like the grandma who's locked herself in her own house, removed all the furniture, sanded down all sharp corners, tied herself to the only remaining chair, and calls her son every couple of days to personally deliver her some cold, bland chicken broth that he spoonfeeds her with his own hands (because she could choke on the spoon). Jagex used to take risks. And risks come with losses (glitches), I realize. Sometimes even huge, game changing glitches. But those glitches are rare. They don't happen all that often. The benefits outweigh the risks. Nowadays, they lock themselves in their office and only release updates that appeal to the lowest common demoninator, AKA children who Jagex thinks they have to protect with their children-like themes. Implementing EoC was the biggest risk they have ever taken. With it have come some huge glitches. And lo and behold, it's turned out to be possibly the best risk they've ever taken. EoC was a risk? No. I disagree completely. I didn't let Jagex sell me that crap. The EoC model was the WoW model. It wasn't a risk, it was an update that was based off a very, very well-tested model. Jagex opted to adopt the strategy of every other MMO developer ever- make your game more like WoW. There was no risk involved. EoC was not unique in any respect, it was WoW with a different name.

Errr ... so you actually want a buggy game where game-breaking oversights can have massive impacts on the economy or result in the loss of all your items? [hide]Surprise, it's still around![/hide] No, what I want is for Jagex to stop being so goddam safe with everything. Just like when you go out to drive your car to the grocery store, you're taking the chance that you'll be hit by another car and killed, but the benefits of that car trip outweigh the risks. Jagex, they are terrified of that car trip. In fact, they don't even own a car. Jagex is like the grandma who's locked herself in her own house, removed all the furniture, sanded down all sharp corners, tied herself to the only remaining chair, and calls her son every couple of days to personally deliver her some cold, bland chicken broth that he spoonfeeds her with his own hands (because she could choke on the spoon). Jagex used to take risks. And risks come with losses (glitches), I realize. Sometimes even huge, game changing glitches. But those glitches are rare. They don't happen all that often. The benefits outweigh the risks. Nowadays, Jagex only releases updates that appeal to the lowest common demoninator, AKA children.

Correction: He's using a two data points within a month of each other to imply causation with an event that happened 48 months ago. To say it's an intellectual scandal to pass those statistics off with that strong of a conclusion would be a massive understatement. You are my hero. <3 So I guess every update that happened after 2007 does not count as gameplay. Those 65 quest, 4+ new bosses, 2 new skills don't mean much. In my opinion, yes. Jagex very much changed their outlook on Runescape around the year 2007. At that time Runescape became less of the player's game and more of the company's game. Quests were dull, unexciting, bland. Most of the bosses are just Jagex trying to outdo their old bosses. Notice how Jagex are terrified of releasing a new boss that doesn't topple the old bosses? That's the kind of mindset that destroyed the game. Sure, there were some great updates, but 98% of the gameplay updates from 2007-present are really, truly... just ... plain... bad. They lost their touch. They lost their game. I'm not going to sit here and try to cherry pick the good things in 2013 Runescape, because that's dishonest. 2013 Runescape is overwhelmingly bad. 2013 Runescape is being updated by a company that favors censorship, despises criticism, and generally shits on its player base (arguably even more than Blizzard!). I don't know, it feels like Runescape is like a Micheal Bay movie. The advertisements for the movie will tell you its unique, it's great, it's heroic, it's patriotic, it's the best movie of the year. And people fall for it because that message is drilled into their head. But then you watch the movie and see how terrible it is. On the outside, it's really great looking, nice and shiny- the action scenes are great. But when you examine the underlying themes, plot, etc. of the movie you see that the movie is nothing but a gold-plated turd. People only see the gold plating, but if you really examine Runescape for what it is today, it is just another carbon copy of every other MMO ever made. It's crap. It's unoriginal. Everything in the game is so goddam boring. Remember back in 2006 when we had the Falador massacre and everybody went nuts? That's the kind of feeling that you don't get with 2013 Runescape. Jagex are terrified of making a mistake, and that mentality has cost them their game. I feel like Jagex is some over protective parent wrapping everything in bubble wrap. Legos? You could stub your toe! Bubble wrap. Toy sword? You could stab yourself! Bubble wrap. Math homework? Your poor little brain will get fried! Bubble wrap. Friends? Friends will make you do drugs! Bubble wrap. Shoes? You might trip over your shoelaces! Bubble wrap. Don't worry honey, daddy Jagex will take care of you.

It's good that most of those bullet points were crap updates not worth anything. But there are still a cornerning few. Nonetheless, this hasn't changed my mind, I'm still voting yes.

I haven't played the game in 3+ years and I'm voting yes. Generation Y praises the current Runescape as a vast improvement, I don't see the appeal. I quit this game because I saw Runescape becoming far too "dressed up" (as fallstar beautifully puts it), kiddish, and commercialized. I may sound like a cranky old geyser, but I truly believe 2006scape was the best scape. 2007 is a nice deal, and is about the time Jagex starting losing their touch with reality, but it's still an early enough date to enjoy the oldschool foundations of Runescape. 2013 Runescape has got neat graphics... whoopdi [bleep]in do? I'd trade in graphics for gameplay any day.

"Cash Bags complement your adventure far better than before, offering everyone a more balanced and rewarding experience – your prizes are tailored for you." You know, these SOF updates wouldn't be so painful if Jagex insisted on using phrases such as "more balanced" and "rewarding experience" and "tailored for you." It's like I'm at a GOP convention- all these meaningless words are being passed around that sound suspiciously warm and fuzzy. Nothing is particularly bad about this update, so why use these stupid phrases at all? Would it have not been just as easy to say "the amount of gold you receive upon opening a Cash Bag depends on your skill levels" and ended it there? Nope, Jagex once again injects a double dose of extra-strength PR into a seemingly neutral update. This is one of many reasons why I've never trusted Jagex. They build up this wall of PR- they never tell you anything without dressing it up and giving it a name. I mean, was it really necessary to name your goddam security system? JAGEX ACCOUNT GUARDIAN - what the hell does that name tell us about the actual product? Just call it what it is- a goddam security system. Norton doesn't go around calling their security software the NORTON PREMIUM INPENETRABLE INFORMATION FORTRESS.

Dude, what? I'm sorry, as much as I'd like to support your view of how everyone should just work together etc, etc, your opinion is just This is the problem with America. American's see the election results in only black and white: there's a winner, and a loser. If you're on the winning side, you get to point your finger and say "haha told you so, u butthurt??!?" to the losers. It stuns me how we shame the "losers" and ridicule them for voting for the "wrong guy." There's no wrong guy for gods sake. Just because you voted for Romney, doesn't mean you should instill in your mind that you somehow made the wrong decision. Romney's not dumb. Neither is Obama. Both are very well educated. They simply have different methods of solving the same problems. Obummer? Nit-Wit Mitt? Nobama? Flip-flop mitt? Are you serious? Why do we have to ridicule the once sacred position of the presidency? There's no more more respect anymore, its all one big circus to choose which clown is funnier. As much as I'd genuinely love if you were right, that America could just be respectful and we could all work together here, your viewpoint is very naive and idealistic. As much as some people would like to argue, these candidates are markedly different in their opinions. America is extremely divided over these opinions. To wish that millions of Americans could simply get along and decide not to make any disparaging remarks towards the other candidate is to deny reality. Idealistic? This was the very setting that existed a century ago in the very same country in which you live. People voted and they weren't ashamed of who they voted for. Look at Romney supporters- some of them genuinely believe they are dumb because they voted for the man who lost. This is an entirely recent phenomenon that spawned shortly after WWII and has been in place ever since. You also seem to hold the opinion that America cannot be changed for the better. It it people like me who point out the wrongdoings of a people who are the primary source for change for the better in a nation. If we simply said, for example, "oh well, let's stop fighting these multi-national corporations and let them step all over us," it would spell disaster. We must, absolutely must, have people who are willing and able to point out problems with this country- for it is the only way that we may address them and then fix these problems. Finally, America is not as divided as you have been lead to believe. Perhaps you should do some research on this subject before you assume these things. Take a look at this paper which examines two-party versus mutli-party political systems. Two-party systems promote far more moderation than multi-party systems. The mainstream news that you have been listening to will tell you otherwise. The truth is, the amount of political bipartisanship has remained somewhat steady over the entire course of US history. You think the Westboro Church is bad? How about the early 20th century neo-confederate groups ? The white sumpremist organisations of the 19th century? The Christian Identity groups of the 18th century? The fact is, extremists have always existed throughout American history - the fact that they can now broadcasts themselves to the world via television has led you to the delusion that these extremist groups are growing exponentially.