unclebilly1

GJ RSD, missed this one

Nice win, those dedicated CWA teams (TKO Blitz, SE) usually put up a hell of a fight.

You don't have to take my word, check the videos you posted here on tip.it: http://forum.tip.it/topic/294126-df-vs-rsd-video/page__pid__4857934#entry4857934 In A-Freak1's video fast forward to 14:42. You can see that's where CheneyC took our 'ending' opts. You can also see that it was only a few seconds after you were spamming 'times up.' That's not a realistic time to expect us to get a fall-in and compare options. Hell, the guy vidding it barely made it to the pile by that time. Your clan logged at this moment, 1 second later when the video ends. Better confimation is provided in the second video you provided by Tristan. Fast forward to 9:25 and you can see the exact ending from another cameraman, and he barely made the ending and he even had his Log Out screen open for a quick logout, lol, and you can see him log out and how quickly he does it. It's too bad, really, because watching the videos it was obvious that DF was doing really well and might have had more options than us at this point. I dunno why they wanted a merged topic when they might have had the outright victory. But hey, it was a close and competitive fight and hopefully we have more in the future. Yeah, same here. This fight had a lot of strange rules so I'm not surprised they didn't hold up. I got there about an hour after the fight started and both clans had snipers out and dung weapons, so I guess they didn't last too long lol :lol: From reading RSC it looks like Saxo and Dale James were camping AC One-Thirty (one of our Trial PK Leaders) so I assume we sent snipers in retaliation. You guys then sent equal snipers so goodbye to that rule. Apparently one (or more, only saw one name mentioned on RSC) of our members brought a dungeoneering weapon, so some of your members brought sighted longbows in retaliation (check Sainttt's posts for proof). We did the same so goodbye to that rule. I didn't witness any of this, I was only there for the last hour after all the rules were out the window, that's just what I gathered by reading RSC, but we all know RSC is full of camel dung most of the time anyways, lol. So both clans were guilty of rule-breaking, but like I said, some of the rules were quite different from the norm so I'm not surprised they didn't get followed.

Didn't expect VR to give up as quickly as they did, but props to them for not dragging out the fight. 4k 0d

You are wrong, DF guys spammed 'times up' while we were in the middle of a pile. DF took a quick shot of our melee/bind pile and logged out in under 3 seconds. So DF got their full ending minus the one guy we were piling, and provided an ending shot of our melee/bind pile as our ending, completely ignoring the fact that the majority of our clan ranges/blasts and wouldn't be in the melee pile. You can even see it clearly lin the pictures you provided. Everyone standing around was saying "where did DF go?" after you logged. Our immediate was like 260- something and full was 280- something. It was a shame you guys logged so quickly, it was going to be very close ending options, had DF stayed around for the normal minute or so it takes to take ending options it would have been decided very clearly one way or the other. As it is, both clans are griping about the other clan and the whole fight is rendered pointless. Shame the top-tier clanworld has gotten itself into such crappy shape, everything is propoganda and no one can just have a fight anymore . . . it's gotta be a 2-hour fight and then a 8-day gripe-fest afterwards. I'm not one to argue on fight topics so I'm not going to. You are in RSD, you know what happened from your perspective. I'm in DF and I know what happened from my perspective. Looking for a perfect result in a fight isn't going to work. There's bound to be one problem or another. I sadly couldn't make ending so it's not like I can comment much further anyway. The clan world has been like that for a while. Take a look at the last page of Clan Discussions on here on Tip it. It shows that fight results were argued about even then. Thanks for the fight regardless. Note that I just quoted the fight topic from RSC and placed it here. I respect every clan that we fight so some of the tone of the topic might not represent my view. It's not a point of view, I just stated facts. I know you're in DF but you already stated that you weren't there, so you only know what your leadership is telling you. I was there, I know what happened. You guys logged out about 5 seconds after spamming 'times up' and didn't let us finish our pile. Since DF was quick to post videos I'm sure whoever recorded it can show you an unedited version. I also said the ending options were going to be very close, it is possible DF had more, it is possible RSD had more. But DF didn't allow us to take your ending options, and put up a ridiculous 141-option pile as our ending when you can clearly see that none of the RSD rangers/blasters were in the 'ending opts' pile. I've never been part of a time cap where one clan logged out after 5 seconds and before ending options were taken and tried to pass off half of our real ending as fact. Kinda makes me wonder why DF didn't want full ending to be taken . . . my point is had DF taken a proper and real ending there would be no room for propoganda and no room for debate. One clan would have won, and one would have lost. DF insta-logging just opened the door for days of debate and flames.

You are wrong, DF guys spammed 'times up' while we were in the middle of a pile. DF took a quick shot of our melee/bind pile and logged out in under 3 seconds. So DF got their full ending minus the one guy we were piling, and provided an ending shot of our melee/bind pile as our ending, completely ignoring the fact that the majority of our clan ranges/blasts and wouldn't be in the melee pile. You can even see it clearly lin the pictures you provided. Everyone standing around was saying "where did DF go?" after you logged. Our immediate was like 260- something and full was 280- something. It was a shame you guys logged so quickly, it was going to be very close ending options, had DF stayed around for the normal minute or so it takes to take ending options it would have been decided very clearly one way or the other. As it is, both clans are griping about the other clan and the whole fight is rendered pointless. Shame the top-tier clanworld has gotten itself into such crappy shape, everything is propoganda and no one can just have a fight anymore . . . it's gotta be a 2-hour fight and then a 8-day gripe-fest afterwards.

Nice to see DF out in P2P, looks like you guys had fun :thumbup:

GF DF, was there for the last 45 minutes - No kills and no deaths <_<

RSD has probably one of the more 'strict' application processes, but it's not really that hard just takes a little time and activity. What will get you in: Good activity (10+ events in 30 days, although most get 20+ events). Being involved in the community. Good attitude. Willingness to hybrid or tribrid in fights. All of these are necessary to make full member. What will get you booted out: Skipping events / poor activity. Not being involved in the community. Bad attitude / flaming / complaining. Using 1 style only at fights / camping / looting. Shady clan history / hacking / etc. Any of these will cause you to be removed or not voted in by membership. Not too hard but does weed out the major bozos.

No one, that was the final. GJ DF

double post, laggy forums today :/

Depends on the clan we're fighting, what we're doing, and what style we're using, and whether we're fighting F2P or P2P. Numbers based on 80-100 people in each clan. F2P (2-3 hour fight) Main pile binders/blasters will die 5-10 times in a normal fight. Main pile rangers will die 0-5 times in a normal fight. Main pile meleers get flamed, striked, and probably kicked from the clan. They don't die much though :rolleyes: Main pile FI leaders will die quite a bit more, varies depending on how many snipers the other clan sends. Snipers will die a lot, 5-15 times if the other clan's pile is weak, 30+ or more times if the other clan's pile is strong. If we're fighting a really good organized clan like TT, the deaths will be a bit more. P2P (2 hour fight) Mages die a ton. 20+ mystic sets is usual. Rangers die just a little bit. 5-10 deaths is usual. Meleers die a bit more. 10-20 deaths is usual. If you're dense and stand out a lot in P2P you will die non-stop until you ragequit lol. My personal experiences: Most F2P deaths in a short fight: 7 (Eternal Honour vs. Shadow Elves; about 2 hours of action) Most F2P deaths in a long fight : 25 (12-hour PKRI - The Death Monkeighs vs Darkness Awaits; fought 10 hours of the fight) Least F2P deaths in a long fight: 0 (10-hour PKRI - Runescape Dinasty vs Violent Resolution; yesterday fought 6-7 hours of the fight) Most P2P deaths: 50+ (10-hour PKRI - Runescape Dinasty vs Reign of Terror; fought the whole fight primarily maging). Least P2P deaths: Not sure, probably something along the lines of 5-10, in P2P you expect to die quite a bit so it's not really memorable when you do die. Yes, you did read that right, 50+ deaths in full P2P gear :shades: Spent about 24M in gear and supplies in that fight, was my first real P2P PKRI and I learned the hard way how to blend in and not be picked out for a pile lol.

RSD PK's pretty much daily, so no real way to increase for us, nor would I want to lol. @ the smaller and mid-sized clans, try offering a matched PVP options fight to the bigger clans, you'd be surprised how many would accept it. The big clan will make it unmandatory and will pull less than normal, and whoever is left over from the cut can AC the stragglers/looters and have a bit of fun as well. We've fought several fights this way both in F2P and P2P. If a big clan really has confidence in their organization they won't mind a 30v30 if they have nothing else going on.

Yes, and I acknowledged that by saying "gratz pushing TT so hard, and that's always hard to do." I never said I trusted or mistrusted RSC, I was simply asking why you or DF would post 2 differing accounts of a fight on 2 different fansites. This fight was posted as a win when your clan now says it was a loss, and last week you posted a win here that was posted as a draw on RSC. I was just interested why DF would post topics as wins here and losses or draws on RSC. The other fight I'm talking about is listed here: http://forum.tip.it/topic/289302-divine-forces-vs-violent-resolution/ Day out topics are always cool. But when I responded to you originally the last line of the post was: Now that doesn't seem like a day out topic to me, when you say TT had 0 ending that's pretty clear you were taking the win. I was questioning it because regardless of whether TT outlasted or not most DF are saying that TT won. Personally, I was there for the last 2.5 hours or so with ~40 RSD killing crashers/looters and the fight looked pretty even. I wouldn't say either clan won or lost, I don't know why there can't be draws when both clans have fought hard for 8+ hours and are then trying to kill each other with 60 option piles; it would be easier and certainly more fair to say both clans performed well, and at different times one clan held the lead over another, but at no point was either clan so dominant as to end the other. Sure sounds like a draw to me.

I think TT would take exception with your 'win' especially since on RSC you guys aren't claiming a win. Whazaa007: Rarity: Jaybear: There's plenty of more but you get the point. That's 2 topics in 2 weeks you've posted as wins on Tip.it but as either losses or draws on RSC. Why the different stories? On topic: Gratz on the action, looks like you pushed TT hard and that's always hard to do.

Close fight, looked like fun! Gratz both :thumbsup:

Feel free to send us ideas about ways we can adapt. :P I posted a topic in the Clan Staff Lounge several months ago that should probably still be there and summed up a comprehensive plan. None of the other Clan Mods / CL's supported it so it was pretty much left for dead. Essentially, my main points for change were: 1. Make the TWR wildy-based instead of Clan Wars based, 2. Allow PKRI's as a valid form of TWR war (along with the standard matched options and full-out knock-out wars), 3. Make the default warring rules by all-styles and full-outs, and 4. Get rid of dead weight clans who aren't actively warring. I also posted a bit on this topic about the pros and cons of Clan Wars: http://forum.tip.it/topic/287726-clan-discussion-improvementssuggestions/page__st__20 [hide] Gotta disagree with that, prior to the release of Clan Wars (i.e. the 'old wilderness') there was much more activity from small and mid-level clans. The RAW list used to have 50 clans on it, with 25 more on the waiting list. Only the top 10 or so were 'big' clans, the rest were mid- and small-sized clans. If anything, Clan Wars killed off a lot of the mid-level clans. When I was a CL here I really felt that the TWR needed to go to a wildernerss-based format to be able to thrive and grow. Clan Wars was fine when that was all we had, but now there is an alternative and Clan Wars is left for those who are too weak or inexperienced or nervous to fight in the wilderness. With the return of the wilderness there's really no reason why any clan would want to do Clan Wars anymore. Clan Wars is a very narrow slice of the total warring experience. If you are in a melee+binds only clan (which most TWR clans were when it was really going well) then you basically negate 90% of the warring experience. Cons of Clan Wars (melee+binds): 1. Little or no emotion attached - If you die, you lose nothing. So most people are willing to bind, but not in the real wilderness. Binding in the real wilderness makes you an instant target for the other clan's snipers. And when you die, you lose 200k. In Clan Wars, if you're sniped you put up pray and run around a wall until it stops. In the wilderness, you get camped by snipers until you die or quit binding. Only the most dedicated will keep binding through snipers. It's a real difference. 2. Only planned fights occur (no chance encounters) - One of the great joys of rivalries is hunting your rival. In Clan Wars you can't do this. You have to ask them nicely for a fight. Which sucks. Which is more fun: "Pleeeeese fight us on Saturday at 2:00 PM, matched options, no dungeoneering or corrupt items" or "If you step in the wildy, we will kill you and all your friends and there's nothing you can do about it. Mwuhahahahahahahahaha!" Quick counter to those who say "you might not get a fight at all in the wilderness!" You will almost always find action. In RSD right now, very few clans want to fight us because we have the capability to pull 120+ people. But we still find a fight almost every day. 3. Too many rules (limitations) in Clan Wars - Melee + binds only, no range, no blasts, no dungeoneering items, no corrupt items, etc. etc. etc. Yawn. If a wilderness fight has rules, it's only to establish boundaries or sniper caps. Most fights don't even have those. Fight until the other guy quits is a lot more enjoyable. 4. Loss of 2/3 of the combat triangle (no blasts, no range) - Similar to #3, it's way too limiting. What incentive is there for mid-level clans to train range when it's never allowed? I remember back in '07 or so Dragonwood made a name for themelves with their range unit. They had a lot of maxed rangers in a medium-level clan and really used it to their advantage. In Clan Wars with all it's rules and limitations, what's the point in doing this? 5. No looting - Not just rune, which is nice, but supplies as well. With the return of the 'old wildy' we can now loot runes, food, arrows, and basically stay on the battlefield indefinitely. For the clan that is winning it increases their advantage as they don't have to return as much and will cut down on outlasting. 6. No returning - In Clan Wars it takes only 30 seconds or so to return, or if you got KO'ed, literally 1 second to return. It's lame. 7. No publicity - This might be the most important thing for Tip.it should they ever switch to a wildy-based TWR. When we (RSD) fight another big clan there's usually 100's of extra people around throughout the fight. There's AC'ers, crashers, looters, and watchers, all playing minor roles in the fight. So when our topic goes up on RSC, there's literally 300-400 people who had some part in the fight, and another 100 who want to post simply to antagonize the people who were there. For better or worse, that one fight will generate more posts than 50 Tip.it fights. Not many people care about Clan Wars, look at the Clan Wars topics on RSC, they rarely get more than 3 pages of responses, which there is a dead topic. With lots of posts come lots of trolls. Tip.it has been up until now very restrictive of trolling, which has obviously driven the trolls away, but it also drives away a lot of the drama and argumentitive posts. In a Tip.it fight post, 95% of the responses are 'good fight' or some variation of that. On RSC, 50% of the posts are 'good fight' and the other 50% are people arguing about some point or other. If Tip.it wants to get away from the 'small clan' image, it will have to go out of its way to do so. My idea was to have a ranking system that included PKRI's as a valid war, but that's just one idea. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Unfortunately that's what's going on with the TWR right now. Most everyone would agree that the current system isn't driving good activity or any new activity, but none are willing to change it. Pro's of Clan Wars: No Crashing - Except for unsecured CC's and portal hopping. Feel free to debate any or all of these points, or add your own :) While several people do graduate from RSB clans to RSC and Tip.it clanning, most do not. I don't know if it's their conservative nature or just an unwillingness to leave their comfort zone, but I don't see a lot of RSB graduates. A few, but not a lot. I think one thing that has hurt mid-level clanning is when Clan Wars came around, the clans who really loved the wildy slowly died out. And with their departure were their non-wildy events. I remember back in TDM when it was really active we had 2-3 wars and PK's a week, but also another 10-15 non-wildy events that were visible to the non-clanning world. If you see 15 people killing Bandos, or 40 fishing at Catherby, it might make you want to join one of those clans. I can't remember the last time I saw a non-wildy clanning event in RS . . it's been a while. No events = no publicity. Your first three points here are pretty well summed up with the third point about good, meaningful discussions. Do that, and people will want to contribute. Build it, and they will come :) Unbanning the banned - Don't really agree with this one. Most of the people who are banned are banned for good reason. And no one gets banned without several warnings in advance, so they knew what was coming but chose to continue their bad behavior anyways. Rules are rules, and you follow them . . . posting on Tip.it is a priveledge, not a right. Abuse it and it's gone. I agree with that. I do also agree, however, that if we want increased activity there needs to be a lenient approach to arguments, as long as they are related to in-game things. Once they cross into personal insults and flames, that's where the line is crossed. Cool, it's a shame we are on a english runescape board though and not in Asia looking to hiring a translator. You know, when you post [wagon] comments that's all people will take away from them; is that you're an [wagon]. All the good points you might have made are lost. The previous Clan Staff who've worked with you all seem to think you're fairly intelligent and could do good things if you wanted to, but all I see is an [wagon]. If the goal of Tip.it is to become much more active, then some amount of debate and/or argument needs to be allowed to transpire. 'Good fight' comments are boring to read and won't attract much attention. Nor do Clan Wars fights. So a little bit of RSC-style posts aren't all bad. Regarding Pan's post, it's outright insulting and a direct attack on one person's attempt to speak in a second language. Taca is one of the most active CL's I've seen in quite a while and certainly not deserving of that kind of garbage. No clan community allows that kind of post, not even RSC. I'm amazed it hasn't been deleted already. This isn't really directed at you Jack, since you've only been a CL for a short time. But that topic you're referring to has been up around a year, I know because I posted a proposal to change the TWR around then that evolved into a discussion of what we should and shouldn't do in regards to changing the TWR to make it more attractive. The end result of all that discussion was that nothing happened. There might be a new post up, but the concept isn't new. Hopefully you guys are able to make more happen than I was; when I was there we talked for over a year and couldn't agree on anything, and discussion topics in the Conclave went unanswered for the most part. Over the past year we've (the Clan Staff) had several conversations and topics about how the TWR needs to change and adapt, and for over a year we've done nothing. During that time the TWR went from marginally active to completely inactive. The TWR in its current form is dead. Unless there is something new and exciting added, it will probably stay dead.[/hide] In a nutshell, the TWR is set up to be a revolving-door ranking system for 'newbie' clans. That wasn't true when the TWR was really popular, as we didn't have an alternative - there was no wilderness to fight in. Now there is, and it's obvious that clans prefer that system. The only clans that want to stay CWA-only are clans that are either inexperienced at warring or are nervous about losing 200k in a wilderness fight. Which is pretty much 'newbie' clans. I know there are CWA-based teams that are both experienced and CWA-only, but that's a small percentage of the clanning world and they have always been free to join the TWR anyways and for the most part haven't (or haven't been particulary active on it while members). Once clans gain experience, they usually leave the TWR and seek wilderness fights. Look at the TWR clans that were active in the heyday of the TWR. While most have closed, the ones that are still around are now primarily wildy-based (or were before they closed): Downfall, DV, CR, DW, TK. A similar exercise would be to look over the current list of ranked TWR clans and see which ones do primarily wilderness fights. It's quite a few of them. Which brings us to a fundamental problem: by making the TWR Clan Wars based by default, you put PVP clans at the mercy of CWA clans. Let's take a clan like PH (#14). PH is capable of pulling 100+ options and is primarily wilderness-based (I know PH hasn't warred since August but they're still ranked on the TWR). Now pair them with a primarily CWA based team like Legendz (#10), who has been a fixture on the TWR for quite a while. Should they try to set up a fight, PH will have to bend to all of Legendz preferences, simply because the TWR says so. I imagine the rules would look similar to this: Clan Wars Center Bounds Matched Options or House Rules (20 v 20) Rings Allowed No Blasts All of these rules benefit Legendz, who would clearly be the weaker clan in a random no-rules matchup. Legendz is far more experienced at Clan Wars, giving them an advantage here. PH routinely pulls 30+ people, so they would likely end up cutting. PH also is used to fighting all-styles, in this fight they would not be able to. So what's the benefit for PH in this scenario? None, and that's exactly why they haven't warred on the TWR in 7 months. Given that the TWR has historically been plagued by clans that pull 10-15 people, it is a problem that is not likely to go away on its own. Nor is it likely to attract new clans, very few experienced clans want to fight hour-long 10v10 melee+binds fights. They're just boring. (No offense meant to Legendz on this post, I just needed a Clan Wars TWR team for comparison and I saw you pulled 16 on your last TWR fight.) In my opinon, to get the TWR more active and also the Clan Discussion forum (a rising tide lifts all boats) then you're going to have to get clans that are both active and that people want to talk about. No one is going to care one lick about a matched 10v10 except for the clans involved. And the current TWR system will only attract and maintain small Clan Wars teams.

This will be a boon to RSB clans and smaller clans that can't afford a decent TS3/Vent server. The big clans already have multiple TS/Vent servers and won't want to give up the control that owning their own server provides. It can see it being used in Jagex Cup and like tournaments since it can't be DDoSed.

Gratz on the win :thumbup:

Gratz on the action :thumbup: Question though, why post this as a win here on Tip.it and a draw on RSC? Just curious.

Glad to see something happening with the TWR. I still don't think the changes address the fundamental way that runescape has changed (i.e. the return of the wilderness, along with the fact that few clans now restrict themselves to Clan Wars) but at least you guys are clearing out the dead weight. Good luck gettinng active again TWR :) :thumbup:

LOL, tell your clanmates to stop dropping N-bombs and they won't get muted :thumbup: On topic, if PMods are muting players for spamming non-offensive material in a fight then they're abusing their powers and are taking away from the spirit of the fight. I personally would like it if PMods didn't have the ability to mute, rather, their reports were sent on a fast-track for JMod review. Too many people have been muted for the wrong reasons, escpecially in wars between clans.

I loot food, runes, and arrows from every pile. When it's obvious a fight is over (killing the few remaining stragglers of a clan that's logged out) I'll loot rune if I get a kill. When we could still get corrupt dragon pieces I would loot them. Other than that, rune is too cheap to bother to loot and weighs you down too much if you get piled.

Was out all day, missed both fights :( GJ VR and AF, hopefully I can make the next ones :thumbup:

Gotta disagree with that, prior to the release of Clan Wars (i.e. the 'old wilderness') there was much more activity from small and mid-level clans. The RAW list used to have 50 clans on it, with 25 more on the waiting list. Only the top 10 or so were 'big' clans, the rest were mid- and small-sized clans. If anything, Clan Wars killed off a lot of the mid-level clans. When I was a CL here I really felt that the TWR needed to go to a wildernerss-based format to be able to thrive and grow. Clan Wars was fine when that was all we had, but now there is an alternative and Clan Wars is left for those who are too weak or inexperienced or nervous to fight in the wilderness. With the return of the wilderness there's really no reason why any clan would want to do Clan Wars anymore. Clan Wars is a very narrow slice of the total warring experience. If you are in a melee+binds only clan (which most TWR clans were when it was really going well) then you basically negate 90% of the warring experience. Cons of Clan Wars (melee+binds): 1. Little or no emotion attached - If you die, you lose nothing. So most people are willing to bind, but not in the real wilderness. Binding in the real wilderness makes you an instant target for the other clan's snipers. And when you die, you lose 200k. In Clan Wars, if you're sniped you put up pray and run around a wall until it stops. In the wilderness, you get camped by snipers until you die or quit binding. Only the most dedicated will keep binding through snipers. It's a real difference. 2. Only planned fights occur (no chance encounters) - One of the great joys of rivalries is hunting your rival. In Clan Wars you can't do this. You have to ask them nicely for a fight. Which sucks. Which is more fun: "Pleeeeese fight us on Saturday at 2:00 PM, matched options, no dungeoneering or corrupt items" or "If you step in the wildy, we will kill you and all your friends and there's nothing you can do about it. Mwuhahahahahahahahaha!" Quick counter to those who say "you might not get a fight at all in the wilderness!" You will almost always find action. In RSD right now, very few clans want to fight us because we have the capability to pull 120+ people. But we still find a fight almost every day. 3. Too many rules (limitations) in Clan Wars - Melee + binds only, no range, no blasts, no dungeoneering items, no corrupt items, etc. etc. etc. Yawn. If a wilderness fight has rules, it's only to establish boundaries or sniper caps. Most fights don't even have those. Fight until the other guy quits is a lot more enjoyable. 4. Loss of 2/3 of the combat triangle (no blasts, no range) - Similar to #3, it's way too limiting. What incentive is there for mid-level clans to train range when it's never allowed? I remember back in '07 or so Dragonwood made a name for themelves with their range unit. They had a lot of maxed rangers in a medium-level clan and really used it to their advantage. In Clan Wars with all it's rules and limitations, what's the point in doing this? 5. No looting - Not just rune, which is nice, but supplies as well. With the return of the 'old wildy' we can now loot runes, food, arrows, and basically stay on the battlefield indefinitely. For the clan that is winning it increases their advantage as they don't have to return as much and will cut down on outlasting. 6. No returning - In Clan Wars it takes only 30 seconds or so to return, or if you got KO'ed, literally 1 second to return. It's lame. 7. No publicity - This might be the most important thing for Tip.it should they ever switch to a wildy-based TWR. When we (RSD) fight another big clan there's usually 100's of extra people around throughout the fight. There's AC'ers, crashers, looters, and watchers, all playing minor roles in the fight. So when our topic goes up on RSC, there's literally 300-400 people who had some part in the fight, and another 100 who want to post simply to antagonize the people who were there. For better or worse, that one fight will generate more posts than 50 Tip.it fights. Not many people care about Clan Wars, look at the Clan Wars topics on RSC, they rarely get more than 3 pages of responses, which there is a dead topic. With lots of posts come lots of trolls. Tip.it has been up until now very restrictive of trolling, which has obviously driven the trolls away, but it also drives away a lot of the drama and argumentitive posts. In a Tip.it fight post, 95% of the responses are 'good fight' or some variation of that. On RSC, 50% of the posts are 'good fight' and the other 50% are people arguing about some point or other. If Tip.it wants to get away from the 'small clan' image, it will have to go out of its way to do so. My idea was to have a ranking system that included PKRI's as a valid war, but that's just one idea. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Unfortunately that's what's going on with the TWR right now. Most everyone would agree that the current system isn't driving good activity or any new activity, but none are willing to change it. Pro's of Clan Wars: No Crashing - Except for unsecured CC's and portal hopping. Feel free to debate any or all of these points, or add your own :) While several people do graduate from RSB clans to RSC and Tip.it clanning, most do not. I don't know if it's their conservative nature or just an unwillingness to leave their comfort zone, but I don't see a lot of RSB graduates. A few, but not a lot. I think one thing that has hurt mid-level clanning is when Clan Wars came around, the clans who really loved the wildy slowly died out. And with their departure were their non-wildy events. I remember back in TDM when it was really active we had 2-3 wars and PK's a week, but also another 10-15 non-wildy events that were visible to the non-clanning world. If you see 15 people killing Bandos, or 40 fishing at Catherby, it might make you want to join one of those clans. I can't remember the last time I saw a non-wildy clanning event in RS . . it's been a while. No events = no publicity. Your first three points here are pretty well summed up with the third point about good, meaningful discussions. Do that, and people will want to contribute. Build it, and they will come :) Unbanning the banned - Don't really agree with this one. Most of the people who are banned are banned for good reason. And no one gets banned without several warnings in advance, so they knew what was coming but chose to continue their bad behavior anyways. Rules are rules, and you follow them . . . posting on Tip.it is a priveledge, not a right. Abuse it and it's gone. I agree with that. I do also agree, however, that if we want increased activity there needs to be a lenient approach to arguments, as long as they are related to in-game things. Once they cross into personal insults and flames, that's where the line is crossed. Cool, it's a shame we are on a english runescape board though and not in Asia looking to hiring a translator. You know, when you post [wagon] comments that's all people will take away from them; is that you're an [wagon]. All the good points you might have made are lost. The previous Clan Staff who've worked with you all seem to think you're fairly intelligent and could do good things if you wanted to, but all I see is an [wagon]. If the goal of Tip.it is to become much more active, then some amount of debate and/or argument needs to be allowed to transpire. 'Good fight' comments are boring to read and won't attract much attention. Nor do Clan Wars fights. So a little bit of RSC-style posts aren't all bad. Regarding Pan's post, it's outright insulting and a direct attack on one person's attempt to speak in a second language. Taca is one of the most active CL's I've seen in quite a while and certainly not deserving of that kind of garbage. No clan community allows that kind of post, not even RSC. I'm amazed it hasn't been deleted already. This isn't really directed at you Jack, since you've only been a CL for a short time. But that topic you're referring to has been up around a year, I know because I posted a proposal to change the TWR around then that evolved into a discussion of what we should and shouldn't do in regards to changing the TWR to make it more attractive. The end result of all that discussion was that nothing happened. There might be a new post up, but the concept isn't new. Hopefully you guys are able to make more happen than I was; when I was there we talked for over a year and couldn't agree on anything, and discussion topics in the Conclave went unanswered for the most part. Over the past year we've (the Clan Staff) had several conversations and topics about how the TWR needs to change and adapt, and for over a year we've done nothing. During that time the TWR went from marginally active to completely inactive. The TWR in its current form is dead. Unless there is something new and exciting added, it will probably stay dead.