Matok

as i feel responsible for this debate to come up just want to note that this is exactly what i didn't want to happen - to appear as some sort of ungratefull ignorent [bleep]. I've choose my words carefully (perhaps not enough?) when i wrote what i wrote few pages back. I just wanted to point out to the new Historians back there that the dynamics were different back then.and they were. And sure US was there for us right from the begining no one can questioned that. yep, the age factor plays a big role and i do think that as an adult you should have been less harsh on this kids/teenageers (though i can understand where you were coming from). and how do you think people like me, an average Israeli with a family to take care of, who saw my country wasting our last coins of world sympathy with that stupid incedent feels today? not too good i can tell you that. deeply deppressed and deeply worried about our future.and there are many like me who feels the same way. side note, The Pixies, my all time favorite band whom i was waiting 20 years to see, canceled their show in Israel in the last minute due to these events and honestly, i look deep inside and still i cant be angry at them for making this decision. This is how the world sees us this days. I love my country for its past, for what we acheived in the last 60 years, for the good people i see everyday. But we have to put our [cabbage] together and understand that the path we are heading doesn't lead nowhere.

you know, when i first read that post i told to myself, well, what do you know, perhaps this guy isn't that anti-israeli after all. Here is a post which can actually be discussed.wow. I was about to reply but then...the usuall poisen & hate poped up right after. suddenly the 1973 war was erased from the history books...oh perhaps you count it as less. and the terror attacks through all our history , the Hizbullah attacks on our soldiers in 2000 & 2006 after we were out of Lebanon.... i know, its just slipped your mind. again, why showing the other side (all the arab armies join hands in order to massacre the newly born state and almost succeeds) if we can put the spot light on one of the stains on Israel history. and the grand finale it seems that when it comes to non-israeli "evidence" your judgment and reason goes down the drain. suddnely the fact that this movie might have (i am not saying does though thats clearly the case) been edit doesn't cross your (usually) suspicious mind. I simply forgot the first 2 commandments in your book: - IDF evidence = LIE - Anti-IDF evidence = UNDISPUTABLE TRUE You're a lost case

First i admit, after reviewing your post again its clearly not what you meant -i take it back. Thats what happen sometimes when you read the same sentence over and over - it gets out of context. So what are you saying there ? why the Holocaust was different from other genocides? why the U.N. decided what it decided back then? I think the answers are pretty clear. You have few minor inaccuracies but one big misconception - the fact you consider the arab league innocents. In my opinion they have equal share in the palestinians tragedy. Well..dont be lazy, go and read about those wars.again, we had no technological supermacy back then,only tactical ingenuity and strong motivation. It wasn't directed at you. I was saying it generaly.when extremist on both sides will be able to comprehend that compromise is the only solution then will be peace. Last word - i think we are pretty close to a deadend in this discussion - in the end it will only come down to whose injustice was bigger. as always.

So whats your point dude? so you guys been genocide, stop whining, it happens everywhere, get over it ? what can i say, great humanitarian argument. I am not, just wanted to make sure the person in front knows what he's talking about. And ye, you seem well familier (and biased) with the issue. let me summerize your next quote so, back in 47, when the partition plan was decided, the south-west syrains (the Palestinains) together with their brothers from the east decided to reject the plan - they just couldn't afford giving those weird people with their wierd hats a small piece of land to lay their heads after years of persucation, from all the lands they had still they didn't had a squere to spare. Well, we all know what happened later. Regarding the "brotherhood" - you know as well as i what is the condition of the palestinains on their "brothers" land. some brotherhood. And since i am not proven to be wrong , i am holding on to that statement. We won those 3 wars without any advantage but our wil to live in our own free country - few vs many yet we won. But that was back then..nowdays,after years of endless blood shed the only solution is to compromise. Rabin knew that,Arafat didn't. Leave the damn islamic pride a side, leave the extremist dreams of "big Israel". It will probably not happen in this generation or the next but one day people will get it into their heads, or not.

not that i want to reopen this issue but if any of you still have a doubt: Turkish paper releases 'censored' photos of beaten Israeli commandos http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/turkish-paper-releases-censored-photos-of-beaten-israeli-commandos-1.294443 and the pictures: http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/galeridetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2 again, i am not about re-opening the whole right or wrong, legal or not debates. Still these pictures are another important piece in understanding what happened there.

damn, i dont know even where to start some i'll just start from the easiest Dude, when was the last time you looked on the map ? You can practically cross Isreal with a car , from Metulla (northest town) to Eilat (southest) and back in one day, and still have tank left. I hope you you've been cynical there. So, the Holocaust was bad...a litlle stain on the world history..kind of refershing to see how the new generation conceive one of the world greatest tragedies. milions were slaugter and you take it as a "bad" incendent. Now open the history book and tell me when was the last time the "Palestinians" have ruled Israel/Palestina/the region - let me give you a hint, never. dont rush to flame me for this sentence - i just want to put the facts as they are. Not gonna underestimate how valueable US friendship & support is for us but the lets ease the "without US you've been nothing" If my memory still serve me correctly, the glories victories of 48, 67 & 73 were acheived before US has started backing up officialy (at least not as it as in the last 3 decades) - back then we were the one who were "small and justice". and to your other statement - We are militery advanced because we have to - and not all of it is made in US you know. and for the last one which i was personnaly offended by: This is actually sad we reached that point were kids around the world perceive us that way I consider myself left-middle in my political view - i strongly support the 2 states for 2 nations solution as the only way. I do think Netanyahu goverment is conveniently hiding behind the iranian issue in order to not deal with the important Palestinians issue. I oppose Netanayho,the man and his policy, and i am ashamed that a goon like Lieberman is our foreign minister. But, honstly, when i read statements like that, saying that i dont have the right to live in my own country, saying my country is an historical mistake which needs to be fixed.. i dont know what to say... dude this is the type of statements which fuels the extermist right in my country ..i hope it's your partial knowledge of history/your age/ the fact you've been provacate to is what made you say such a statement.

First we'll have to see exactly which steps ,if any, will be made Second, in the current political global atmosphere- after Dubai & Marmara, some steps must be made to receover at least some of the world sympathy for us (not that we build on it). Third, i do support easing the blockade. after 3 years we can say for sure that beside turning the all world against us nothing came out of it. I am not saying the blockade should be removed completly, the Hamas is a terror organization and continues to pose big threat to any future agreement. We should continue our political and militaristic struggle against them if we dont want missiles start flying again onto our cities and more buses explosions in the center of TLV. But keeping the 1.5 milions there in continuous poverty, people who will have to be included in any agreement that will hopefully be made one day...i think they got the message .. I am a total supporter of the saying that the worst enemy is the one that got nothing to loose... Are you talking about the soldiers? you cant be serious here..those kids were there following our goverment orders, if you realy want to blame someone blame it on our goverment.

As expected: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/under-u-s-pressure-netanyahu-may-ease-gaza-blockade-1.294038

well, actually they were talking about it in the israeli news - examining the possibility of increasing the supplies through a friendly country like Italy. Now i hear that they are speaking about the possibility of establishing some sort of procedure which will allow ships to get to Gaza after an Israeli security check. I just hope Netanyahu will be capable of making the right decision here. Its time to lower our heads.its time to remember that our problem is not the Palestinian people,its the Hamas. We need something to break the bad momentum here, after Dubai & the Marmara incidents we need to remind the world who we realy are.

i have no problem with people criticizing us - no matter what we say, fact remains, 9 people are dead . But I just can't stand the fact that people read the reports, see the pictures,and still they choose to put things up side down. a soldier lying on the deck get lynched by 4-5 men with steel poles axes and knifes= "innocent peace activests" . a soldier gets stabbed time after time by a man without responding = "they have the right to refuse the search" and on and on.what can i say - typical peace activists. I can assure you that not a single Israeli is happy with the results ,no one boarded this ship in intesion to kill people - not that it helps now. I hate the fact that all the anti-israeli (also in this forum) now celebrate our failure and use this oppurtinity to re-question our very legitimacy as a country. Yes, you are very moral people, sitting in your comfortable chairs in your friendly neighborhood, i wish we had the same privilege.

"refuse" is quite an understatement, lets call it defensively lynching .. At this point you know as well as i am that those guys were more then happy to kill one or two israelis just to demostrate their "refusal" to the Israel policy. (small refreshment) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0 This pretty much sum it up - we messed it up , big time. A bigger problem is that the Hamas and their allies learned a new and much more effective way to gain world sympathy - hordes of ships are heading our way as we speak - just hope lessons were taken. Its sad (and ironic) how human-rights actives will be now,more then ever, the primary weapon for the fundamental islamic regimes. But the biggest problem is that i dont see anyone in the current Israel leadership responsible enough to navigate Israel out of this crisis with minimum damage.

Reservoir Dogs. Pulp Fiction right after. I believe he meant director. Anyway none of his other work (writer/producer) wasn't as good as his first 2 directed movies imo (True Romance would have been my third if we counted them also)

Sex and the City: The Movie - exhausting Tropic Thunder - stupid Three Monkeys (Üç maymun ) - too slow and not interesting enough

The Ship Song,Where the Wild Roses Grow,The Weeping Song Nick Cave

The last Indiana Jones was on cables last night - weak. Today i've been to Up Probably the best animated movie i've seen in years. Sentimental,funny, i think that adults will enjoy it even more then kids. great movie :thumbup:

Carter USM - England

as i said, not bad

Following some of the recommendations i read here i saw Gattaca . Hard to point out what doesn't work in this movie. Not that it was bad but in a way it felt like a director with a more powerfull vision could make it better. Ethan Hawke was also not the best choice of casting here though it could be the director's fault that his appearence was so anemic.

Yael Deckelbaum - Hundred Percent Light

Shabak - fly like a bird

Ice Age 3 - Fun :thumbup: continuing with the summer movies spirit i took X-Men Origins: Wolverine but the cd got stuck after 20 minutes.. searched the cables for a substitute and luckly there was 300 . Though it started at quarter to midnight and i was quite wasted the rush of testosterone kept me awake till the end.As good as the first time.

Roots Manuva - Witness

The Fall - Sing ! Harpy

this

The Breeders did a pretty good cover of "Happiness is a warm gun" in their first album [hide=][yt]HAJEhzXU0pc[/yt][/hide] Laibach dedicate a cover album for the beatles' Let It BeAlbum. Guess its a matter of taste but i found couple of the covers there quite intresting. good or not? you decide :) Some examples: [hide=Across the Universe][yt]_q5mlb3Bjzs[/yt][/hide] [hide=i me mine][yt]tL4ngsf81NA[/yt][/hide]