TheAncient

Nope, wasn't referring to you in the first part of my post. Sorry if that put you off. To answer your question, it's a matter of attitude. What are you here on the forums for. If you aren't here to give or receive advice, or to do research, I don't hate you but there's not much space for you on the forums. We're trying to get work done. If someone comes into your office to talk about something completely unrelated, as a manager I'd think it's perfectly reasonable to ask that person to leave the premises. Opinions that further discussion are and should be distinguishable from opinions that have nothing to do with metagaming. For example: CLS vs rapier. "I think CLS might be better because its slower attack time allows SS flashing to be easier" (wrong, but still in the vein of finding out what weapon is actually best) versus, CLS vs rapier. "I think CLS is better because it looks cooler and has a better attack animation" (wrong, but discusses something totally unrelated) Obviously a user wouldn't be banned for the latter comment. I'd just keep it in mind and observe over time.

That's if you want your forums to be centered only around community. We want both community AND an attitude of metagame promotion. Well that's just not gonna happen. Tip.it is about serving the runescape community as a whole; there no good reason for them to moderate in favour of metagamers any more than there is to moderator in favour of pkers or skillers or questers or pures. I don;t see how it can remotely be an issue (assuming meta-gamers are given their own subforum) that they simply when posting in the shared area (aka not in the sub-forum) do not use derogatory terms towards non-metagamers and expect if they do so to be punished just the same as someone who uses any derogatory terms towards others. Unless metagamers have their own space. Then it's perfectly fine for mods to mod under the context of promoting metagaming in addition to community. Away from trolls and idiots, we clearly have the capability of acting civilly in giving advice. It's tip it's lack of initiative in action against these users that has led to the problem we have today. Anyway, I'm done talking about this for now. Mods / admins are still free to PM me whenever they want.

If you think a lot of the bans were justified, then you don't really have a good grasp on the situation. Either that or I completely disagree with your sense of justice. Of course the porn and other harmful things should have been acted against. But those were actions that were out of our control and pretty much did not represent us. I'm completely open to talking to mods/admins. I want them to talk to me. I'm posting my opinions here for them to see right out in the open. Only a few have approached me. Some of the mods I've pretty much made my mind on though. Through years of observation. Trolling = intentionally bothering someone else for your own amusement which is different than genuinely having a different opinion That's if you want your forums to be centered only around community. We want both community AND an attitude of metagame promotion. Yeah and I think a global clause like that would be unfair. But that's not what I'm pushing for.

The problem, though, is spill-over from other boards and members. As far as I know, they're not trying to split up H&A, and there are a lot of attitudes that I just don't think are constructive for H&A. Also, a problem is picking who to moderate. There's really only one mod here who promotes RS metagaming. A lot of the mods here are fair but they don't really take sides, or are not as active both in game and on the forums as I would like. There are also a few mods that are completely out of touch and have made terrible judgment calls (like all of the recent bannings) that I want NOTHING to do with. I don't think admins would kick those mods out. Another thing is that tip it would never include a clause like "action will be taken against players who are deemed disruptive to the metagaming community". AFAIK the admins don't think that kind of clause is fair. I think it's totally vital for us to select the community that we want.

I think that is fair enough; I think the issue arises in when that view is somewhat rudely enforced upon H&A threads in particular. It's not right to call advice wrong or in some cases flame people JUST because the advice they given isn't the absolute most efficient method. Sure post your efficiency advice and say its more efficient; then leave it at that. Let the OP decide if they wanna use your advice or others. This of course doesn't apply to pointing out advice tht is genuinely wrong, just to calling advice wrong just for not being the most efficient (unless obv the op asked for most efficient) Take a look at <link removed>l. Out of all of those efficiency posts, how many of them have differing insight without saying "OH YOURE WRONG STFU". Saying that we do that is a complete misrepresentation and focuses on a small proportion of us. Most of the posts we make in H&A are genuinely trying to help. Mod edit ~ Advertisement is not allowed outside of the Advertise your thing here! thread.

Maybe our forums won't appeal to everyone. And I'm fine with that. I want to be with a certain type of people. If your attitude is not toward promoting RS metagaming, I don't want you on my forums. How is it alienation if both boards coexist on tip it? We'll just never talk to each other and that's fine with that. But mods have to recognize that they're going to have to make judgment calls, even if it seems biased.

Going to be honest here: I have a long history of tip it as do most of the other people I'm involved with. The most ideal solution would be for us to have our own space on tip it. It reduces our overhead (good for us) and it keeps us under tip it's banner (good for tip it) But it's the general attitude of a lot of people, mods, posters alike, HIGHLIGHTED like a sore thumb on this thread (i'll try not to name names) that makes me feel more strongly about leaving. If we were to make a new space on tip it, mods NEED to pick sides or we're going to continue have these stupid arguments. If administration cannot promise that action is taken against disruptive users - not necessarily blanket banning but banning for certain forums - I just don't see why I'd want to be a part of tip it anymore. But I don't really see that happening, given tip it moderator history. Separating gives us a clean slate, away not only from trolls but also the genuine but annoying / immature / brash users that tip it currently has.

But the majority of the time I post, I post in the style that I do in this thread. If you see me in help and advice most of the time I don't say "OH YOURE DUMB DO THIS", I just offer plain advice. People have selective memory. The posts that you remember most from me are probably also the ones in which I'm most arrogant.

Objectively: When did I troll in this? Do you know what trolling really means? Up until the last 5 posts I made, when did I call people stupid? When did I not try REPEATEDLY to make my points? How have I not made effort? Like, seriously? This is the kind of bs I'm talking about.

If that's not a sweeping generalisation, nothing is. I believe the clinical term for your condition is called "arrogance" Sure. And like I've explained before this cycle of frustration is exactly why we have such an issue on these boards. Since years of arguing have been unproductive, don't you think it's time for the mods to consider a serious change?

Either way, the point is that a lot of people are just way too stupid to talk with on these forums. It's annoying and unproductive to deal with them. Maybe the way im handling it is wrong but a person can only have so much patience. A person trying to find and offer good advice shouldn't have to put up with the bs that we do.

Which hurts the OP if they have no way to tell which advice is good and which is bad. If the op can't see through my reasoning, theyre probably a lost cause anyway. What matters also is the other people reading the thread ad making sure they know what's right

You must call someone stupid in order to be "right" or make a point? :blink: No. I've already made my points. I call someone stupid because they don't understand what I'm saying.

You could edit your last post and explain in there why you think your idea is better so the topic starter reads it (you could even colour it to make him notice it). And then the other person will just repeat their statement as well. It needs to be obvious to the person you're trying to help exactly how ridiculous some of the other advice is, or they'll seriously consider ir

Butthen you run into the issue of letting people give ridiculously bad advice and reasoning.

Because you know calling a fairy unicorn the d word makes for a huge flamewar? your are such a dumb person for not knowing that. I totally recognize that :) But at some point I feel like im losing my sanity if I let idiocy slide... I feel like I've made an effort to objectively state my reasoning. People just don't listen/ totally miss the point of what I'm saying.

I'm sorry, if I've made a clear effort to explain my reasoning and a clear effort to help you, and you're too thick or slow to understand my reasoning, how am I not supposed to call you dumb?

Wow, such an excellent post from one of my favorite people. However, I must be critical now, so please don't be offended when I ask you to make a list of names of people besides yourself who are qualified to post responses in H&A. You may simply turn the list in with only your name. Finally, please accept this olive branch as a token of my willingness to get to the bottom of this problem of unqualified and ughly posts in H&A. This, guys, is trolling.

A change in the mods and how this forum is constructed is, in my view, the most realistic way to solve this problem of what really is just a series of personal vendettas. It's already clear that fun and efficiency are not mutually exclusive. There's no need to debate that. I've already said that plenty of times, and people do not read/listen.

Elysian > Divine > CSB/CKS > Arcane/CKS > Arcane/DFS > Arcane > DFS > BSS > Spectral Spectral is actually bad because you get less deflect damage done against prime. There's pretty much no reason you should use spectral.

I agree with Grimy as far as Danq goes. You can't ban a player for being wrong. That's ridiculous. You CAN still support research and the efficiency community by actually banning the users who are clearly trolling. And by giving the content-focused players their own space. By fostering a self-selecting community. And by actually taking the effort to understand where we're coming from. MAKE a judgment call. Oh wait, I don't trust your judgment. In before this thread gets locked because mods can't take any criticism.

Trolling means to say or do something that serves no other purpose than to annoy someone else for your amusement And Blyaunte, that's not what I mean. I am not advocating for everyone to construct objective function for "fun" and then optimize it. All I'm saying is that, to maximize "fun", whatever it might be, you should have an open mind and be willing to explore your options. This is harder than it sounds, as it requires listening to advice even if you don't like the person advising you. In direct contrast, advocates of "fun" often have a way of doing things and don't really seek to better themselves.

In your opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. In what way you have fun is not stated by a definition it is an opinion. Research provides the best known way to do something. Is that an opinion? Ancient -- no offence -- but that exchange REALLY reads like a science geek's response on your part. It looks like essiw is arguing with Sheldon Cooper ... :unsure: What's wrong with being geeky? More people need to let science into their lives. Im geeky irl, but I get along with people fine. And in context when I say resarch I don't necessarily mean data logging and xp tracking. All I mean is taking an open mind and willingness to learn. This attitude goes a long way.

In your opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. In what way you have fun is not stated by a definition it is an opinion. Research provides the best known way to do something. Is that an opinion? Best known mathematically, but that isn't how some people have fun. If you're idea of fun is to get the most exp/gp/points/rank out of your time, so be it. Some of us don't think of it like that. I never said fun = highest numerical xp/hr or gp/hr. Even for "fun" activities like castle wars or just general fooling around, how do you know it's fun until you've heard about it and tried it? Experimentation and keeping a research-oriented mindset opens up possibilities. Likewise, being smart about how you have fun and gathering info on what you could do for fun maximizes your experiences. Stating the excuse "oh shut up I have my own way of having fun" closes your opportunities and exposes you to boredom. Ignoring good advice has no reasonable excuse other than pride.

In your opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone thinks that way. In what way you have fun is not stated by a definition it is an opinion. Research provides the best known way to do something. Is that an opinion?