Efficiency Trolls

[JacTise69]

For those of us who frequent these forums, we are (generally speaking) familiar with the term "efficiency". Essentially it comes down to how to play the game in a way that maximizes your cost : benefit ratio. Back when I first started playing the game I had no idea how to train my skills. I leveled up sporadically, killing giant rats for their meat and cooking it for combat and cooking exp for example, and no one ever told me that there was faster, better ways to level that would save me time and money. Progressing into the game my personality (ESTJ) drove me to find the most effective ways to training each skill, by way of my own personal testing and frequenting many help sites for information. Of all of those help sites Tip.It has been by far the most helpful.

 

This is mainly due to certain members of the community who have been willing to pour time and energy into writing scripts for programs to calculate things such as DPS for a given weapon, or making spreadsheets that update to the most accurate gp/exp for a given method of training a skill, or spending countless hours in testing to gather data on the best way to do (fill in the blank). ***

 

Again however those of us who frequent these forums are bound to have seen posts and heard comments in game by various other players throwing around titles such as "efficiency trolls" or "efficiency clowns" whenever a particular training method/weapon/moneymaker is suggested. This leads me to the focus of this discussion...

 

1.3 - Flaming, Violence, Harassment & Pointless Vulgarity

 

 

Heated debates are allowed across the entire forum and we are more lenient when it comes to banter between users in the PvP forums only. However, we always draw the line at personal attacks. Unacceptable forms of flaming include intentionally posting false arguments, intentionally misquoting other users, posting flames or personal attacks for no other purpose than to incite a negative reaction, annoying others or disrupting a discussion. Posts that are disparaging toward any religion, race, nation, social status, gender, or sexual orientation are strictly forbidden. Debate opinions or challenge ideas, but do not insult the people behind them. User names (and profile information) may not be offensive, vulgar, profane, or abusive. It is also not our intention to limit the poster's option to use occasional curse words to demonstrate a point. However, pointless harassment or excessive or obscene cursing will be edited or deleted. We have a censor in place to disguise certain inappropriate words. Bypassing it with text, images or videos will cause your post to be edited, deleted, or more severe punishments for repeat offenders.

 

Any post explicitly sexual in nature, an invasion of a person's privacy, abusing our censor, or in other way violating the law, may be edited or removed and the user may be banned (at the discretion of the Administrators).

 

This is an exerpt from the tip.it forums official rules, with my bolding of a segment for emphasis.

 

All of those who post advice that is efficient or discuss efficieny have dealt with the personal attacks. Where we are called "efficiency clowns" for recommending using a whip over a Godsword for training combat we don't respond with "youre stupid" but with "training with a Godsword instead of a whip is stupid".

 

In topics about money making help it is often said that toadflax is better to farm than snapdragon, a blatant false argument based on exp per harvest, and profit per patch (the only two real ways of measuring which is better).

 

Any time a question about efficiency comes up posters come out of the woodworks to incite negative reactions out of us, post blatant misinformation, in many cases severely and purposefully misquote us, as well as annoy and disrupt those who are contributing to the discussion.

 

 

 

TLDR: Those of us accused (and in some cases banned) for "trolling" with our attempts at providing the best advice and discussion on the most efficient way of doing things in this game are in fact that ones who are being trolled and flamed.

 

READ BEFORE POSTING

 

We are not assuming that others will enjoy putting our advice into practice. We aren't assuming that they won't enjoy it either. We're assuming that when they ask for the best way of doing something that the response should be based on providing the individual with the highest cost benefit ratio with relation to what their goal is. If they want fun we can not help them outside of providing a list of all possible options. Unfortunately when said list is presented often times the poster then asks which is better...which leads us back to asking what their goal is aside from fun.

 

*** My thanks to those members who have taken the time to figure things out that I couldn't have done on my own due either to my lack of knowledge or lack of time.

[pulli23]

All of those who post advice that is efficient or discuss efficieny have dealt with the personal attacks. Where we are called "efficiency clowns" for recommending using a whip over a Godsword for training combat we don't respond with "youre stupid" but with "training with a Godsword instead of a whip is stupid".

 

The problem is not WHAT you say, the problem is HOW you say it.

 

Trolling means having a disrespect to the person asking the question, and being an efficiency clown means having disrespect to looking into the personality of the question asker. As I said many times, somebody CAN be more efficient when ectoing bones than when altaring: if they like to use the ecto more.. And hence they can keep attention better & achieve much better xp rates. "clowns" tend to only look at the signs and conclude this is impossible.

[Danqazmlp]

I actually just had this exact same argument almost but the other way around with another few moderators.

 

It occurs both ways. Sometimes those who play in a way they find fun, but isn't efficient will be insulted by those who think efficient is the way to go, and sometimes those who play more efficiently and make better use of their time in respect to exp will be insulted for not playing the game for fun.

 

It works both ways, and neither crowd is right or wrong.

 

Fun in any game is subjective. What often happens (especially in H&A) is that somebody will ask for something in general such as 'money making tips'. Somebody who plays in a more laid back style will say something along the lines of "I do x because i find it fun". An efficient person will come along and say something along the lines of "I do x because it 's the most efficient way to do it".

 

It's often called fun vs efficiency, but even this is subjective. Some find efficiency fun, some find inefficiently not fun or a time waste.

 

I disagree on your TLDR, as I see it (and I see a lot of things) both crowds are clowns who don't seem to accept the whole subject is subjective and no crowd is better than the other. They should all just realise that everybody plays for different reasons and leave the others alone, agreeing to disagree.

 

Edit: As said above as well, what one might find not offensive, some would. It all depends on how you say something. Instead of calling more laid back training stupid, just say it isn't as efficient and leave it at that. Maybe agree that it may be more fun for some people. The same for those saying efficiency isn't fun. Just recognise some do find it fun.

[Range_This11]

I couldn't help it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk9IvhV3aAs

[JacTise69]

All of those who post advice that is efficient or discuss efficieny have dealt with the personal attacks. Where we are called "efficiency clowns" for recommending using a whip over a Godsword for training combat we don't respond with "youre stupid" but with "training with a Godsword instead of a whip is stupid".

 

The problem is not WHAT you say, the problem is HOW you say it.

 

Trolling means having a disrespect to the person asking the question, and being an efficiency clown means having disrespect to looking into the personality of the question asker. As I said many times, somebody CAN be more efficient when ectoing bones than when altaring: if they like to use the ecto more.. And hence they can keep attention better & achieve much better xp rates. "clowns" tend to only look at the signs and conclude this is impossible.

 

The problem is not what I say, its how its interpretted. I am careful to never call someone stupid. I will however call their training methods stupid. A persons actions =/= the person. As to your example, the fact of the matter is you can't be more efficient with ectoing bones than altaring because of how efficiency is measured, namely cost:benefit ratio. The cost in additional time it takes to ecto the bones vs altaring them doesn't justify the money saved due to the higher exp/bone consumed.

 

I'm sure at some obsenely low income levels (100 k/hr or something like that) ectoing could be considered more efficient because the time saved altaring couldn't be used to make enough money to justify the additional cost. But for most players (anyone who can pick mort myre fungi/harvest white berry spawns...no wait that's everyone) this is not the case.

 

If fun is going to be a factor that is pulled in to the equation then there is no point in discussing the "efficiency" of the activity. At one point I found it fun to rush the KQ with flowers with 30 of my friends and see if we could kill her. We succeeded once (after dying 3 times each at least and rushing back) and it was way more fun than when we did it later in teams of four with verac's.

 

edit

 

I actually just had this exact same argument almost but the other way around with another few moderators.

 

It occurs both ways. Sometimes those who play in a way they find fun, but isn't efficient will be insulted by those who think efficient is the way to go, and sometimes those who play more efficiently and make better use of their time in respect to exp will be insulted for not playing the game for fun.

 

It works both ways, and neither crowd is right or wrong.

 

Fun in any game is subjective. What often happens (especially in H&A) is that somebody will ask for something in general such as 'money making tips'. Somebody who plays in a more laid back style will say something along the lines of "I do x because i find it fun". An efficient person will come along and say something along the lines of "I do x because it 's the most efficient way to do it".

 

It's often called fun vs efficiency, but even this is subjective. Some find efficiency fun, some find inefficiently not fun or a time waste.

 

I disagree on your TLDR, as I see it (and I see a lot of things) both crowds are clowns who don't seem to accept the whole subject is subjective and no crowd is better than the other. They should all just realise that everybody plays for different reasons and leave the others alone, agreeing to disagree.

 

Edit: As said above as well, what one might find not offensive, some would. It all depends on how you say something. Instead of calling more laid back training stupid, just say it isn't as efficient and leave it at that. Maybe agree that it may be more fun for some people. The same for those saying efficiency isn't fun. Just recognise some do find it fun.

 

I would concede we should live and let live, I obviously play this game for fun. But in the case of H&A the questions are often for the "best" advice and since fun is subjective it can't be factored into an objective definition for "best". Efficiency I would argue is in no way subjective, there is always a definite cost versus a definite benefit that is relatively easy to measure using terms of time/gp/exp etc. So by what is the most efficient being the definition of best it is "stupid" to say that training combat with a Godsword is the best way to do it.

 

edit 2

 

lol'd at the song :rolleyes:

[xpx]

This very subject is under intense discussions to see what the leadership of TIF feel about the community going forward. Hopefully there will be space for those of us who want to discuss serious mechanics of this game.

 

Also, what i've been told by an administrator, ignorance and blatant stupidity go under the same rule aswell, so if someone does say a godsword is better than a whip you can report them for flaming/trolling.

 

I actually just had this exact same argument almost but the other way around with another few moderators.

I think this is a discussion where one would be best served in actively playing the game to formulate a well balanced opinion. Not having anthing to do with either camp and just watching discussions from afar don't seem enough in my opinion.

[Noxx]

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once. Like said before, it's not what you say but how you choose to say it that makes people have such utter hate for most "efficiency clowns".

Also the reason i find it hard to take people who spend hours and hours calculating costs and making spreadsheets is because it takes me 5 minutes to do a quick calculation myself which would always be 100% accurate as apposed to a half-asses spreadsheet that calculates by the G E price and not the actuall selling price. So all in all the spreadsheet would be an utter waste of time, but i guess some people like wasting time.

 

EDIT: I must give the "efficiency clowns" some credit though as on many occasions they are the only people we can rely on for the right answers and the best methods (not just for skilling but for PvM too). Most of them understand the dynamics of the game a bit better than most of us do and they are even able to put it in simple terms that even a moron like myself can understand, which is saying a lot. I guess if it werent for them a lot of us would not have played the game as we do today. And lets face it, although we all might deny the fact that we like being efficient, at some stage of the game there is something you just cant go without being efficient and you know it.

 

EDIT2:

This very subject is under intense discussions to see what the leadership of TIF feel about the community going forward. Hopefully there will be space for those of us who want to discuss serious mechanics of this game.

I dont even see what there is to think about. If a space like that could go deeper into how the game works and make other understand the game a bit better (and i'm sure Grimy would pretty much be able to explain almost every aspect of the game mechanics) then i dont see what there is to think about? Seriously. . .

[JacTise69]

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once. Like said before, it's not what you say but how you choose to say it that makes people have such utter hate for most "efficiency clowns".

Also the reason i find it hard to take people who spend hours and hours calculating costs and making spreadsheets is because it takes me 5 minutes to do a quick calculation myself which would always be 100% accurate as apposed to a half-asses spreadsheet that calculates by the G E price and not the actuall selling price. So all in all the spreadsheet would be an utter waste of time, but i guess some people like wasting time.

 

Is it rude to tell someone they have a spice inbetween their teeth or is it rude not to? If you tell them they do and they reply "I have it there for fun" then by all means send them on their way, but they will still look silly.

 

/irony

 

What if said person finds it "fun" to make said spreadsheets?

 

/endirony

 

I've always found the spreadsheets a much appreciated asset to saving me time in estimating ballpark costs or exp/hr I can expect for a certain skill. I rarely have time to play as it is due to being a full time student and also interning for roughly 40 hours a week with my church and when I do play I want to take full advantage of the time I have, calcing the individual results of every training method every day I get on based on their current actual selling price would be a pain, spreadsheets make it so I don't have to do that.

 

edit

 

Both sides are guilty of being rude at some points. However most of the perceptions of the efficiency "rudeness" is that our critiques of a persons actions are mistaken as critiques of the person themself. This is not the case.

 

I have a textbook that is calling my name so that I don't fail my exam tomorrow. Wish me luck, and I will hopefully be able to come back and continue with this soon.

 

edit 2

 

just died laughing at xpx's siggy.

[xpx]

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once. Like said before, it's not what you say but how you choose to say it that makes people have such utter hate for most "efficiency clowns".

Also the reason i find it hard to take people who spend hours and hours calculating costs and making spreadsheets is because it takes me 5 minutes to do a quick calculation myself which would always be 100% accurate as apposed to a half-asses spreadsheet that calculates by the G E price and not the actuall selling price. So all in all the spreadsheet would be an utter waste of time, but i guess some people like wasting time.

I'm sorry, but counting your own H&A thread (http://forum.tip.it/topic/291467-25-dks/), there are atleast 7 efficiency clowns there helping you get better, plus one of them has written a whole guide about the very subject...

[Crossed_Body]

Trolling means having a disrespect to the person asking the question

No, it does not.

 

Define: internet troll

someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[Noxx]

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once. Like said before, it's not what you say but how you choose to say it that makes people have such utter hate for most "efficiency clowns".

Also the reason i find it hard to take people who spend hours and hours calculating costs and making spreadsheets is because it takes me 5 minutes to do a quick calculation myself which would always be 100% accurate as apposed to a half-asses spreadsheet that calculates by the G E price and not the actuall selling price. So all in all the spreadsheet would be an utter waste of time, but i guess some people like wasting time.

I'm sorry, but counting your own H&A thread (http://forum.tip.it/topic/291467-25-dks/), there are atleast 7 efficiency clowns there helping you get better, plus one of them has written a whole guide about the very subject...

What are you sorry about? I dont get it.

But read the part i editted in. . It came in a bit late so i assume you already started typing your reply by then.

[Naraku893]

I laugh hardcore at efficiency nerds. It's one of the reasons I even stay on this deteriorating forum community.

 

Also,

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once.

:thumbup:

[pulli23]

The problem is not what I say, its how its interpretted. I am careful to never call someone stupid. I will however call their training methods stupid. A persons actions =/= the person. As to your example, the fact of the matter is you can't be more efficient with ectoing bones than altaring because of how efficiency is measured, namely cost:benefit ratio. The cost in additional time it takes to ecto the bones vs altaring them doesn't justify the money saved due to the higher exp/bone consumed.

Ow but it IS how you say it, I won't go into personal details, but there are so many ways to say things and most aren't good in a help and advice forum. Being arrogant & showing elitism is one of them.

 

I'm sure at some obsenely low income levels (100 k/hr or something like that) ectoing could be considered more efficient because the time saved altaring couldn't be used to make enough money to justify the additional cost. But for most players (anyone who can pick mort myre fungi/harvest white berry spawns...no wait that's everyone) this is not the case.

 

If fun is going to be a factor that is pulled in to the equation then there is no point in discussing the "efficiency" of the activity. At one point I found it fun to rush the KQ with flowers with 30 of my friends and see if we could kill her. We succeeded once (after dying 3 times each at least and rushing back) and it was way more fun than when we did it later in teams of four with verac's.

You still don't get it do you? :)

 

IF the fun means you can actually keep your attention to kq, and hence kill it (while with veracs you get so bored that you die from falling asleep) using flowers is more efficient FOR YOU!

I have some small RSI: I hence can't do many clicks (+ moving the mouse, the combination is what cause pain) a second.. Hence I can't do tormented demons in an efficient matter, and something like green dragons are more efficient money-making methods. A clown would be unable to grasp this, unable to tailor advice on the person and see that efficiency (apart from fun) isn't only determined by the ideal figure & lines, no ones is perfect and soemthings it is easier to approach the "perfect" line than with others.

 

They should all just realise that everybody plays for different reasons and leave the others alone, agreeing to disagree.

Isn't this, you know "general Discussion"? - What is a discussion worth when you just "agree to disagree", discussion spawn from the very fact there are disagreements, and you DON'T agree with each other. This is a prerequiste for discussion, and hence innovation. Discussion isn't something "bad", I can go into very heated (and interesting) discussions without any trolling flaming or personal attacks - it just requires maturity.

[Crossed_Body]

IF the fun means you can actually keep your attention to kq, and hence kill it

Not a problem for anyone without ADD.

 

Fun and efficiency are two different things that... *gasp* can overlap!

[JacTise69]

I laugh hardcore at efficiency nerds. It's one of the reasons I even stay on this deteriorating forum community.

 

Also,

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once.

:thumbup:

 

/facepalm

 

Insulting those of us who value doing things well and then insulting the entire community of these boards is probably a bad idea. Also, your comment contributes nothing to this topic and in fact is a perfect example of flaming/trolling. Hence your post has been reported.

[Range_This11]

This very subject is under intense discussions to see what the leadership of TIF feel about the community going forward. Hopefully there will be space for those of us who want to discuss serious mechanics of this game.

 

I don't think it's so much what you're saying but how you're saying it (the figurative "you", of course). As long as both sides keep it civil and respect the other side's views, there shouldn't be a problem. If the administration censors the efficiency crowd because they're efficient, they're making a huge mistake, but I highly doubt it will be like you are implying.

[ghjkl]

IF the fun means you can actually keep your attention to kq, and hence kill it

Not a problem for anyone without ADD.

 

Fun and efficiency are two different things that... *gasp* can overlap!

nope obviously efficiency is training 9001 different skills at the same time and clicking 1510795091 times faster just so you can save 1 minute per hour

i cannot see how that can be fun

[Crossed_Body]

nope obviously efficiency is training 9001 different skills at the same time and clicking 1510795091 times faster just so you can save 1 minute per hour

i cannot see how that can be fun

And I cannot see how slaying with offensive stats reduced to 1 is fun. See, I can exaggerate in order to make a point too!

[Naraku893]

I laugh hardcore at efficiency nerds. It's one of the reasons I even stay on this deteriorating forum community.

 

Also,

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once.

:thumbup:

 

/facepalm

 

Insulting those of us who value doing things well and then insulting the entire community of these boards is probably a bad idea. Also, your comment contributes nothing to this topic and in fact is a perfect example of flaming/trolling. Hence your post has been reported.

Wont stop me from laughing at all of the efficiency trolls. I wasn't insulting the whole forum community either. I was insulting the people who think it is fun to come on here and tell everyone else on how to play a game.

[pulli23]

IF the fun means you can actually keep your attention to kq, and hence kill it

Not a problem for anyone without ADD.

 

Fun and efficiency are two different things that... *gasp* can overlap!

Is this a weak attempt to discredit me by a personal attack, or a weak attempt to make a joke?

 

Either way you should read the whole sentence and understand it's an exaggeration to get the point acros.

[Jehosaphat]

As though it wasn't enough that half the General Discussion topics get derailed into this, now it has its own topic. Wonderful. I think I might stick around and watch the futility.

[Naraku893]

This thread will be locked soon probably. I am better off finding discussion on the RSOF.

 

Have you seen the RS pic thread recently? There are people that actually take a screenshot of someone who is wearing something in game and post it on here and laugh at them saying how stupid it is to wear that gear at that place ect.

[Crossed_Body]

Either way you should read the whole sentence and understand it's an exaggeration to get the point acros.

Like I said, efficiency and fun are two different things. Saying that killing the kalphite queen with flowers is efficient because it is fun and he otherwise wouldn't do it is incorrect.

It is inefficient whether he'd be able to do it otherwise or not.

[JacTise69]

The problem is not what I say, its how its interpretted. I am careful to never call someone stupid. I will however call their training methods stupid. A persons actions =/= the person. As to your example, the fact of the matter is you can't be more efficient with ectoing bones than altaring because of how efficiency is measured, namely cost:benefit ratio. The cost in additional time it takes to ecto the bones vs altaring them doesn't justify the money saved due to the higher exp/bone consumed.

Ow but it IS how you say it, I won't go into personal details, but there are so many ways to say things and most aren't good in a help and advice forum. Being arrogant & showing elitism is one of them.

 

I'm sure at some obsenely low income levels (100 k/hr or something like that) ectoing could be considered more efficient because the time saved altaring couldn't be used to make enough money to justify the additional cost. But for most players (anyone who can pick mort myre fungi/harvest white berry spawns...no wait that's everyone) this is not the case.

 

If fun is going to be a factor that is pulled in to the equation then there is no point in discussing the "efficiency" of the activity. At one point I found it fun to rush the KQ with flowers with 30 of my friends and see if we could kill her. We succeeded once (after dying 3 times each at least and rushing back) and it was way more fun than when we did it later in teams of four with verac's.

You still don't get it do you? :)

 

IF the fun means you can actually keep your attention to kq, and hence kill it (while with veracs you get so bored that you die from falling asleep) using flowers is more efficient FOR YOU!

I have some small RSI: I hence can't do many clicks (+ moving the mouse, the combination is what cause pain) a second.. Hence I can't do tormented demons in an efficient matter, and something like green dragons are more efficient money-making methods. A clown would be unable to grasp this, unable to tailor advice on the person and see that efficiency (apart from fun) isn't only determined by the ideal figure & lines, no ones is perfect and soemthings it is easier to approach the "perfect" line than with others.

 

They should all just realise that everybody plays for different reasons and leave the others alone, agreeing to disagree.

Isn't this, you know "general Discussion"? - What is a discussion worth when you just "agree to disagree", discussion spawn from the very fact there are disagreements, and you DON'T agree with each other. This is a prerequiste for discussion, and hence innovation. Discussion isn't something "bad", I can go into very heated (and interesting) discussions without any trolling flaming or personal attacks - it just requires maturity.

 

I agree that there are ways to give advice that are condescending and elitist. However responses that are concerned with efficiency are labeled as elitest, regardless of how they are said, by every poster who is more concerned with "fun".

 

And no, using flowers is not more efficient for anyone. It's just more fun for some people. Physical limitations such as your RSI don't change the fact that there is a more efficient way of doing things, and your inability to do them does not make something more efficient for you, it makes it more possible for you. To be clear efficiency is determined by cost/benefit ratio, not the individual's ability or lack there of to do it. Some levels of efficiency are not possible for some people due to said limitations, but it doesn't make efficiency a subjective thing. In otherwords, my inability to correctly flash piety due to my lack of timing does not change the fact that it is more efficient to flash piety.

 

edit

 

I laugh hardcore at efficiency nerds. It's one of the reasons I even stay on this deteriorating forum community.

 

Also,

Yeahhhh.... I'd like to see the day an "efficiency clown" manages to answer a post without being rude, arogant, cocky or all of them at once.

:thumbup:

 

/facepalm

 

Insulting those of us who value doing things well and then insulting the entire community of these boards is probably a bad idea. Also, your comment contributes nothing to this topic and in fact is a perfect example of flaming/trolling. Hence your post has been reported.

Wont stop me from laughing at all of the efficiency trolls. I wasn't insulting the whole forum community either. I was insulting the people who think it is fun to come on here and tell everyone else on how to play a game.

 

wut? how is calling the entire community deteriorating not an insult. And we don't come on here to tell people how to play the game, we tell them what the most efficient way to play the game is. They are free to do whatever they want.

[LitterBug]

They should all just realise that everybody plays for different reasons and leave the others alone, agreeing to disagree.

Isn't this, you know "general Discussion"? - What is a discussion worth when you just "agree to disagree", discussion spawn from the very fact there are disagreements, and you DON'T agree with each other. This is a prerequiste for discussion, and hence innovation. Discussion isn't something "bad", I can go into very heated (and interesting) discussions without any trolling flaming or personal attacks - it just requires maturity.

 

This is true, but when have you seen this ever happening?

 

It's never a discussion when reading about fun vs. efficiency.

Inevitably, trolling/name calling take over the thread. ALL the time.