green9090

Danq goes out of his way to be an obstacle. I don't see a point in sugar-coating it.

COMPROMISE? You thought we had almost reached a compromise? I'm sorry, do you know what that word means? Because from my angle it looked a lot like you were brick walling me by saying anyone can post bad advice whenever they want. But of course, I can't do it. What if I find training on cave slimes fun? What if I told you that's how I got 49m str exp? Then is it acceptable for me to tell other people to do it? The obvious answer is no, because it's still a horrible way to train no matter how much I enjoy it, and if I post that it's a good way to train, I am trolling. We agree on this, and yet somehow you still go on to say that if OTHER people post equivalent advice, it's not trolling, because they "don't know better." Sorry, but if they still don't know better with proof that they're wrong under their nose, they're trolling too.

*raises hand*

It's only possible to have guide mode off on a complexity with non-essential rooms. I forget what that is, maybe C5. Guide mode tells you the path to the boss, but if every door is part of the path to the boss... Anyway, the best way at this point is to C1 (or C2 if you want fish exp) all but your highest few floors, and then do your highest floors C6 small. Definitely consider throwing skill lamps, penguin points, and tears of guthix on dungeoneering to get through this stage faster so you can get to F30 and start teaming. Dungeoneering is quite disproportionately slow at low levels compared to all other skills.

The problem is that warning somebody for being wrong is not the way things should work. Hell half of the users of the forum would be banned by now for posting wrong information at one point or another. Warning for being wrong is not in the rules and will never be. It is up to the more respectable users to be the 'bigger man' and walk away. If you can disprove their claim in a sensible and non offensive manner by all means do, but if you cannot and their argument is subjective, say so and move on. To you their argument may be 'blatantly wrong', but unless you prove it, they won't know. Brb telling people to train strength on cave slimes. What? It's fun.

:-| You either don't know what efficient means, or don't have any understanding of opportunity cost whatsoever (and, by the sound of your post, you definitely don't want to learn anything, so I won't bother explaining it unless you ask). Needless to say, asking for help from knowledgeable players isn't going to help you at all, because you're convinced that your way of doing things is correct when in fact your method is inferior for reasons you can't be bothered to understand. That doesn't make the advice given to you bad, it makes you closed minded. I agree with you on subjectivity until you say that advice cannot be given on fun due to its subjectivity. It is harder to give advice concerning fun, but not impossible. Advice may be the wrong word, suggestion probably fits better. I see no harm in somebody suggesting a method they find fun if it has some relevance to the OP's request as it is still giving them advice. Yes those who flame efficient posts are in the wrong, but also are those who flame inefficient posts. both sides need to calm down, either ignore the others or learn how to reply with respect and subtlety. The issue is when fun suggestions are presented as efficient advice. Saying that you like your CLS because it hits really high is... okay, I guess, but when you start explaining how CLS is BETTER, that shouldn't be okay. It confuses the facts and makes it more difficult for the OP to be sure what is actually true. I agree completely. (See it's nice when people make constructive arguments from opposite ends of the discussion without resorting to flames, couldn't this carry over to H&A) At that stage they should just be ignored. See, that's where we differ. If you ignore somebody posting wrong advice, you're doing a disservice to the OP by potentially letting them be tricked into believing something that isn't true. Ideally you would post contradictory evidence, like DPS equations, to make the point that CLS is not better, and then if they persist in posting their blatantly wrong advice, a knowledgeable moderator would step in to issue a warning. But of course, this is Tip.it, where the moderators refuse useful action.

I agree with you on subjectivity until you say that advice cannot be given on fun due to its subjectivity. It is harder to give advice concerning fun, but not impossible. Advice may be the wrong word, suggestion probably fits better. I see no harm in somebody suggesting a method they find fun if it has some relevance to the OP's request as it is still giving them advice. Yes those who flame efficient posts are in the wrong, but also are those who flame inefficient posts. both sides need to calm down, either ignore the others or learn how to reply with respect and subtlety. The issue is when fun suggestions are presented as efficient advice. Saying that you like your CLS because it hits really high is... okay, I guess, but when you start explaining how CLS is BETTER, that shouldn't be okay. It confuses the facts and makes it more difficult for the OP to be sure what is actually true.

Yup. My previous post is edited too in case you didn't see it.

Nononono don't go in initiate or anything like that. Void. It has quite a respectable prayer bonus (assuming you have elite), and is the best melee DPS in the game hands down. Banking is quick enough that I wouldn't consider super prayers. You'd almost certainly waste more time grinding the wyvern bones than you would banking at black demons slightly more often, the bank is close. Edit to your edit: No deflector is fine, use ddef instead. I'd consider getting a deflector though, seeing as you'll be doing this for over 20 hours and the deflector will definitely help. No rapier is going to be... bad. Whip's a lot worse, so your kill rate is not going to be what's been projected. It'll also negatively affect your cannon accuracy. The method's still worth doing, but... I'd REALLY consider getting a rapier before embarking on something like this. It's a tool you will use for the rest of your RS career.

I believe your best bet is full elite void with deflector and barrows gloves with a rapier, zerker (i), fury, d boots, and fire cape. Pray deflect melee and turmoil, and use overloads. Yak the ashes you can, probably won't get them all- might be worth bringing some summoning pots, but with how fast the kills are you might find you spend more time chugging them than killing. Use claws for specs- if you want to be super efficient about it bring a void gloves switch for speccing.

It's extremely difficult to find teams at low dungeoneering levels, unfortunately. You're best off soloing to floor 30 and then seeking out abandoned floors in DGS. When you hit occults it's much easier, and f45 is when you really start being able to be in the pro floors.

You might also consider slaying with a cannon. It won't be as fast as just camping black demons, but if you ever plan on 99 slayer it WILL get you 99 ranged and summoning, and agility as well if you choose to use your effigies on it. It's also a little less grindy (in my opinion) to do a variety of monsters rather than sitting at black demons for 20+ hours. If you don't plan on 99 slayer then obviously don't bother with it.

Lol

Blazer is pretty rarely used once you have t10 blitzer. Unless you plan to have a surge forever (ie never get a hex), I don't think I'd t10 two magic rings. T9 blazer works fine for the 3-4 times a reset I pull it out.

It's understandable, but it doesn't make it any less silly, nor any less damaging when they run around trying to justify their error by getting other noobs to make the same mistake.

This is the feeling I get. It's especially noticeable when people are told things that they worked hard for, like a CLS or a DFS or Bandos (without a fury) aren't the best thing for them to have. People get attached to their item and angry at the suggestion that a goal they had was a waste of time from the start. @Above, we're talking about RS efficiency. What is the fastest way for a specific player to get to X goal using any method available and make back the money spent (if applicable)?

I don't think anyone is arguing that the highest xp/hour rate is always best- nobody would tell you demonic thrones are efficient construction training. Efficient training maximizes your gains in an amount of time, taking both money and exp into account. You can go both ways with this- going to a f2p world and burying the bones at barbarian village may be free exp, but the time taken for exp is spectacularly excessive to the point that you'd be better off chopping yews and buying d bones with that money. Efficiency is about finding the balance that gets you your goal and all your money back in the fastest way possible. Also, hell yeah I giggle when I see people doing things that are incredibly ineffective. One time I saw someone in Kuradal's dungeon who was wearing an ely and a fighter torso killing blue dragons with magic prayer. I find that hilarious is the same way I would find it hilarious if I was walking down the street and saw somebody trying to hammer in nails with a banana.

Grimy's been on a crusade against the establishment for a while now. The spreadsheets were a bargaining chip, as they bring a lot of traffic to TIF. Probably some of the most up to date useful RS tools on the internet.

i said piety. not cannonballs. and you do make more money than without. waaaay more kills at the cost of 45k/hr MAXIMUM 25% more kills makes up for a 45k loss always. +1. Cannon skyrockets your exp at a significant cost, but just piety can only improve your income. Prayer potions are CHEAAAP right now.

Lol. You're self-centered, so he doesn't help the community? Cool story, bro.

Wouldn't that be off-topic posting, not trolling? The user is not asking how to gain the money to get yews, but where to cut them, so the post is irrelevant. Yet if the user asked where can I cut yews to raise my firemaking level, then that would be a perfectly acceptable piece of advice, I would think, because it explains how better to gain capital so you can attack your main goal (raising firemaking). Unless the user says he only wants to wc to get yews... It all makes my head spin, it's all so grey. It must be a veritable headache for staff and users alike. I don't really think it's off topic. This actually happened a while ago- somebody asked where to cut yews, and I said something to the effect of "Unless you're a DIYer, you should consider not cutting yews, they're like 300k gp/hour income, which is BAD." I got flamed. I feel like my advice was solid- I didn't tell them they couldn't cut yews if they wanted to, other people had told them places to cut yews, and I had given them something else to think about in case they weren't aware what a bad moneymaker yews are. The OP had a variety of good advice to choose from depending on what direction they wanted to go.

I can understand in that case why someone would respond to a poster like that and explain why that's a poor decision. I don't see why it should be reportable though. People learn from mistakes, and if someone like you explain why something's wrong, they learn. But if something like that becomes reportable, punishable, removable...people won't learn the why. Maybe your examples were meant to be more grey-area than that, but if I take you at your word...then what you're suggesting is removing the learning from the entire process. It's irresponsible, and I honestly don't think it would produce the environment you'd be hoping for. Better you should put the user on ignore than pursue such a road, because it wouldn't change anything for the better, but make the community cliques and urge to conformity higher than ever before. Like I said earlier, it only becomes a problem when they're vehemently defending their idea. If they say fish sharks, people explain why rocktails are better, and they go "oh." and stop, that's fine. But if they go YOU GUYS ARE ALL JUST EFFICIENCY TROLLS SHARKS ARE FINE IF YOU LIKE THEM STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO, that's when it's trolling, and it happens a LOT. Katori, I think you're confusing the efficiency crowd for one collective consciousness. I certainly wouldn't endorse that sort of thing.

If there are pros and cons, then there's a discussion to be had. I'm talking about suggestions without pros. For example, let's take a player asking the best way to train from 95-99 fishing. The best way exp/hour-wise is to do c2 ice floors in dungeoneering, dropping all the fish with mousekeys. If they don't want something so APM-intensive, they can sit back and watch a movie while fishing rocktails. An argument could even be made for barbarian heavy rod fishing if they value agility exp very highly. These are ALL acceptable responses. What OP shouldn't have to deal with is somebody telling him to fish sharks for all that sweet cash. Sharks are objectively worse than another option (rocktails) in literally every way- they are less afk, the spots move more, you have to bank more often, they have markedly less exp/hour, and they make less money/hour. Suggesting shark fishing is flamebait and unhelpful. That sort of response is trolling and should be dealt with accordingly.

@Danq: And that opinion right there makes trying to use H&A for actual help pointless, because anybody can tell you to do whatever they want and be immune from being called out on it. You are basically saying you want H&A to be a useless forum. Wooo moderation team! <3 you guys.

It's more that your personal bias is influencing you to endorse trolling H&A in an official capacity. Posting CLS IS FUN BCUZ IT HITS HARDER THAN BEIBER RAPIER SO GET THAT LOL RAPIER IS DUM is trolling. So is telling somebody to get Bandos because it looks good, or DFS for the extra defense you need so much on slayer tasks.