Selling online items and eBay

[zubeedoo]

Ok, now I'm going to have to be very careful with how I write this, since it's a topic that can easily get people in trouble(if someone wants to lock this please mail me first, I'd much rather make some changes then have to give up on such a good topic for debate), so first let's lay out a few ground rules:

 

 

 

(I ask mods to remove any posts containing these)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Do not talk about any selling/buying you've done, there was a good topic on a similar subject that got closed because people kept admiting to breaking jagex' rules in their arguments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2)Please don't turn this into an argument about jagex' rules on selling/buying items/gp.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3)If you are of the oppinion that it should be allowed, feel free to argue but don't go suggesting that other people should do it in spite of the rules of runescape.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, the other day I was reading through some posts on my alliances forum and came across a rather interesting post. It was a link to an article claiming that eBay was going to stop all auctions on MMORPG items and currency. Not entirely sure of whether or not I should believe this, I went over to ebay and punched in some names of various games I'd played over the last few years. To my surprise the article wasn't lying, as I did not find a single online item auction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At first I thought that this was a marvelous idea, but then I thought about it for a while and my oppinions changed radically. I'll list some of my thoughts here (but not all of them as that wouldn't be any fun :P ).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1)Compared to other sites, ebay is SAFE. People know to be wary of those with little or no feedback, and it's hard to set up multiple accounts as ebay requires identification and will not let you set up more then 1 account. People also know not to trust those with poor feedback, which they will inevitably get if they take people's money and don't deliver the goods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that ebay no longer sells gp, the people who actively bought and sold the stuff will look to other, usually less safe, ways of doing buisness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Schools that once preached abstinence now preach the use of now preach the use of prophylactic devices (I SWEAR I've heard both words used on disney's family channel so I'm hopeing it's G-rated enough for this forum).

 

 

 

They know people will do things even when they're told not to, so they may as well try to keep the practice safe, why can't the same be done for the MMOG market?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Is it right for companies to complain to ebay? By making it against the rules game companies are already covering their backsides from mails demanding that so-and-so deliver the items they bought from them, so what difference does it make to them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3)Now here's the one that really got me:

 

 

 

I'm not sure of how many people have heard of this, but there actually is a slavetrade going on in 3rd world countries (and even in some developped ones) surrounding MMOG's. They basically force people (usually children) to grind out cash on various video games (especially WoW from what I've read).

 

 

 

Now, while most people are against the slave trade, you can't argue that forcing someone to play video games 19 hours a day for scraps of food isn't nearly as bad as forcing them to do hard,physical labour under the same conditions. Knock off the most popular way to sell the obtained items and now you have these slaves doing much harder work..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's all I'll post for the time being,as I'd like to hear what other people have to say before diving in any farther.

[Wachtwoord]

I must agree with the slave part of it, I saw some kind of documentary a few weeks ago about it. And it really is almost slavery. But I don't get, why removing ways to sell it, makes it worse for the "slaves". I mean, if they can't sell their products, the owners of those "slaves" will probably stop their buisiness. I think that's improving the condition of those "slaves".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another this; eBay was one of the easiest safest ways to buy GP (note: I don't have experience with this, so it can be total crap). So now, some people who used eBay will stop, while other will just search other ways to get it. From the people who continue, some will encounter bad sites. So they are hacked, etc. This will also make some people to stop real world trading.

 

 

 

So in the end; this will lead to less real world trading, which was/is jagex goal.

[zubeedoo]

I must agree with the slave part of it, I saw some kind of documentary a few weeks ago about it. And it really is almost slavery. But I don't get, why removing ways to sell it, makes it worse for the "slaves". I mean, if they can't sell their products, the owners of those "slaves" will probably stop their buisiness. I think that's improving the condition of those "slaves".

 

 

 

Once they've been paid for do you think someone's just going to let their workers go? If they're not playing video games all day they'll be doing something worse, there were slaves before the MMOG market and they will still exist once it is killed

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another this; eBay was one of the easiest safest ways to buy GP (note: I don't have experience with this, so it can be total crap). So now, some people who used eBay will stop, while other will just search other ways to get it. From the people who continue, some will encounter bad sites. So they are hacked, etc. This will also make some people to stop real world trading.

 

 

 

So in the end; this will lead to less real world trading, which was/is jagex goal.

 

 

 

The ebay side of ebay is safe, it's the game side where things can go wrong.

 

 

 

On other sites, either side can be corrupt, as a site could just demand credit card info and run off with that. Not only that, but there would still be a fairly large market for gp with ebay out of the picture, off the top of my head I can already think of one forum where such trades run rampant (and it's one I came across while doing a search on one of my friends in RS on google, and a site that TIF knows about and cencors, nuff said) and I'm sure that if anything that site, and others like it, would benefit quite a bit from the lack of availability on ebay. Hell, even TIF has hosted (though not intentionally I'm sure) a few ads for GP, and any free forum site will host a few of those if you chose games as the category of forum you're setting up. GP sellers are no harder to find now that ebay no longer sells it, it's just a lot less safe for people.

[Randox]

I agree with what the creator has said, and the slave thing is something that never would have occured to me. But I can't help but think that if someone gives out there credit card info and dosen't get the gp they "paid" for (basicly they have money stolen), well they deserve it, sure the punishments a bit over the top, but stuff happens when you do stupid things. So I can only hope that with E-Bay out of the picture, the smart people stop what there doing all togetther, and the stupid people get robbed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you can't tell im not much for the safety of people who break serious rules, I have enough trouble with the minor rule breakers as it is.

[DaN]

They know people will do things even when they're told not to, so they may as well try to keep the practice safe, why can't the same be done for the MMOG market?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Buying drugs is Dangerous mayb if the supermarket sold it people would be alot safer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Same argument...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it right for companies to complain to ebay? By making it against the rules game companies are already covering their backsides from mails demanding that so-and-so deliver the items they bought from them, so what difference does it make to them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its legally the property of Jagex anyone trying to sell runescape items is commiting fraud.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Placing that stupid disclamer on the bottom of their ads dosent make it any less fraudulent.

[zubeedoo]

 

They know people will do things even when they're told not to, so they may as well try to keep the practice safe, why can't the same be done for the MMOG market?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Buying drugs is Dangerous mayb if the supermarket sold it people would be alot safer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Same argument...

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's not really a good comparisson, as I'm guessing the drugs you're referring to are the ones that are currently illegal...

 

 

 

Because otherwise that argument actually makes sense, or would you rather go buy Tylenol off a guy in a dark alley?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it right for companies to complain to ebay? By making it against the rules game companies are already covering their backsides from mails demanding that so-and-so deliver the items they bought from them, so what difference does it make to them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its legally the property of Jagex anyone trying to sell runescape items is commiting fraud.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Placing that stupid disclamer on the bottom of their ads dosent make it any less fraudulent.

 

 

 

There's 2 views to be had here, what you've gone and done is used them interchangeably to make yourself look right, which you aren't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moral views: Realistically speaking, the people selling gp on ebay are, in fact, selling gp on ebay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Legal view: They say right on the auctions that the stuff remains the property of jagex, and that you're only paying for the information required to use said items. Legally speaking,they're in the clear.

 

 

 

Yes, placing that stupid disclaimer on ads DOES make it less fraudulent, what we're arguing here is whether or not it's RIGHT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, what I was questionning is whether or not it's morally right for companies like jagex to complain at ebay, because from a legal standpoint what the bulk of people are doing is perfectly alright.

[swampjedi]

Administrative Note:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll keep special watch on this, Zubeedoo.

[quitthegame]

 

They know people will do things even when they're told not to, so they may as well try to keep the practice safe, why can't the same be done for the MMOG market?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Buying drugs is Dangerous mayb if the supermarket sold it people would be alot safer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Same argument...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it is. This argument is why Prohibition was ended despite lowering alcohol consumption by over half... it caused too much crime. Now it's available at the local supermarket.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This situation is also fairly similar to that with pirated music. Another situation where the low transactional cost and difficulty of enforcement lead to a lot of problems when trying to enforce the priviliges of the legal owner. People are prone to oversimplify the problem into one of simple property rights. In doing so they misunderstand the origin of the current structure of property rights. Intangible things with low transactional cost and difficulty of enforcement are precisely those things which in the past we deemed property rights not to exist for. Who owns the air over your property? Who owns the water flowing through the creek on your farm? Who owns the deep ocean? Areas like water rights and deep ocean management are very complicated issues, because of the prior two complications.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with games and music is that 20 years ago, there wasn't a market in ingame currency, and it wasn't practical to copy music over the internet. So we established social patterns and customs that people have come to believe are inherently right, despite arising from a reality that has changed drastically. Changes in water rights, ocean utilization, happened much more gradually, but still, people have not adapted as fully in these areas as they should have--which is why we are facing extinction of most fish species in the next 50 years. Knowing that changes on the century level were still too fast for society to adapt to, it's no surprise that the much faster pace of change in the computerized world leaves societal mores in its dust.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, let's return to basics...why is it bad to have rules that are not well enforceable and attempt to assign strong rights to commodities with low transactional costs and weak scarcity, in any of these contexts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#1 It's inefficient to police things that are difficult to enforce, while other more enforceable violations are rampant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#2 Lack of enforcement makes breaking the rule so profitable that it rewards rulebreakers and demoralizes rule abiders.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

#3 Assigning strong rights to commodities with low transactional costs and weak scarcity often makes the economy less efficient. Innovation in technology usually takes the form of lowering transactional costs and improving efficiency--which lowers scarcity. This kind of rights creation is like legally mandating lower technology for all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, where does this leave us in regards to current mmogs? The crucial point is that enforcement in these areas, can be viewed as a cost-benefits situation. I personally would favor a total ban on autoers and gold sellers, in a utopian setup where enforcement was easy. In a dystopia where enforcement were impossible, I would favor legalization of both. In the actual situation we're faced with, this analysis shows us that the important thing is not just to take a hard moral stand against cheaters and real world traders, but to make a hard practical effort to make the enforcement viable and a net benefit...i.e., put your money where your mouth is. I would say as a proviso that people are a lot more idealistic in their expectations for enforcement in games than they are in the real world, and given the relative controls available, perhaps rightly so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(edit) An important point which I forgot, is that one of the costs of enforcement is the case of those false positives who are wrongly banned. Let's consider the situation where 25% of people cheat, 10% of cheaters are banned, and .5% of noncheaters are wrongly banned. Is that worthwhile? I would say no. In that situation 15% of bans are unjust, and the percentage of cheaters banned is really too low to discourage it properly. The combination of rule breakers getting a big advantage, and those .5% of noncheaters getting wrongly banned, would make me view enforcement as a net negative.

[Duke_Freedom]

- Disallowing or allowing Real Money Trading has little or even no influence on the actual amount of RMTing taking place. Even if the game company allows RMTing and provides a completely safe trading system for the virtual this does not change the amount of RMTing in any way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Ebay no longer allowing virtual currency trading has little to no influence on the amount of RMTing that takes place. If anything, it indeed increases the amount of people who end up scammed when pursuading in RMTing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- RMTing itself does not ruin, change or otherwise (negatively) effect a games economy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reasons why RMTing should be allowed:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- As said, disallowing it does not prevent it from happening. Allowing it does not increase it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- The academic world is quite sure that the future is heading to RMT allowed in all games anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- It is not effectively and especially not easily enforcable. Having unenforcable rules is a waste of (costumer support) time that could be better used on more important issues. This also includes (naive) people who complain to the game company that they were scammed out of their bought virtual currency *yes, despite it being against the rules, this does happen*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- The game company can provide people with a 100% secure system to trade the virtual currency. The game company can even profit from listing fees in its own system, which can be a nice extra source of income.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- The secure trading system and allowance of RMTing can go hand in hand with the intellectual property rights staying in the hands of the game company.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most of the points I am raising here are not just my personal opinion, but they are actually based on the results of Sony's one year research project on the game companies allowance of RMTing on specific Everquest II servers:

 

 

 

http://arden.blogs.com/swn/2007/02/sony_releases_v.html

[brave]

Great news that ebay has stopped the sale of "in game" items. However, this will not last for ever. Eventually the sellers will find a way round ebay's ban, as has happened in the past.What tends to happen is that a code is developed that will enable the sales to continue. I remember a few years back ebay banned the sale of Live Aid tickets (eventually), but the tickets were soon back on ebay and being advertised so that it was not immediately obvious to ebay monitors what they were. The sellers were using e-mail to spam people telling them how to identify the tickets. I know this bescause I got one.

[Waffleh]

Now that ebay no longer sells gp, the people who actively bought and sold the stuff will look to other, usually less safe, ways of doing buisness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who is it not safe for? Just the people selling it, who are breaking the rules, and the people buying it, who are breaking the rules? Either way, if something goes wrong in the transaction, both of them were breaking the rules, so isn't the moral point of view that they deserve the punishment they bestowed on themselves?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Is it right for companies to complain to ebay? By making it against the rules game companies are already covering their backsides from mails demanding that so-and-so deliver the items they bought from them, so what difference does it make to them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As said before, the currency and items are property of Jagex, no matter who holds it in the game. Those few pixels are still theirs, legally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3)Now here's the one that really got me:

 

 

 

I'm not sure of how many people have heard of this, but there actually is a slavetrade going on in 3rd world countries (and even in some developped ones) surrounding MMOG's. They basically force people (usually children) to grind out cash on various video games (especially WoW from what I've read).

 

 

 

Now, while most people are against the slave trade, you can't argue that forcing someone to play video games 19 hours a day for scraps of food isn't nearly as bad as forcing them to do hard,physical labour under the same conditions. Knock off the most popular way to sell the obtained items and now you have these slaves doing much harder work..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is, of course, a major and very sad issue, but as you said, it was especially WoW, which means that there are slaves not just ebcause of RS. If the slave owner isn't getting business with RS, they'll move on to a different game. There are THOUSANDS of games out there, so just solving the problem with RS will not help. They'll find a way to move on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Nadril]

Interesting that you decided to post this topic Zubee, me and duke just nearly finished (well not really finished) a debate about RMT's ourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, the first half I do agree with duke. You can not stop RMTs. There are ways you can *help* prevent it, and you can prevent services such as power leveling, but not buying or selling online gold.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Duke mentions the Everquest II bazaar servers. Those are great -- for those who want to be a part of the RMT deal. Because of RMT though (not bots, most trading on those servers are done by actual players) prices have inflated to where you almost need to buy gold to keep up. Granted, yes, you can be self sustained by yourself but for some it just isn't a wanted playstyle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Trying to cut back RMTs is, IMO, at least the first step. Get rid of those who are farming gold for varrious RMT sites and try to halt their progress.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I realize that I shouldn't lump RMTs and bots together, but hear me out. Most RMT trading that goes on these days is gotten by gold farming companys. These companys use varroius botting programs while having people watch the bot incase a GM trys to talk to them. This is how they get their money to sell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other side of RMT is from perhaps the person that is quitting or whatever. This I don't find as bad, simply because it is on a small scale and generaly can not be found out anyways. In a way its like just giving a friend your stuff, one person isn't going to affect anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personaly I think that they should keep RMT against the EULA and try and prevent it. It is possible to slow down RMT progress, make it not as profound if you stop the source of the gold [i.E bots].

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now as far as my personal feelings about RMT goes (this really shouldn't be lumped in the debate, as it is my personal opinion):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RMT trading takes away part of the game IMO. The fact is a large portion about MMOs is all about workin your way towards achieving goals with your character, and some of those goals are getting said item perhaps. To me it feels somewhat.. un-fair when I really try hard towards a goal and get what I want only to have it trumped by a guy who simply paid his way to get the same result. Yeah, its somewhat unfair and I couldn't get a specific example but its just that feeling knowing that there are people who didn't have to do anything but shell out $30.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The good thing as far as the above goes is a lot of games these days are going towards loot that is "bind on pickup" to where you can't just buy it from some 3rd party website.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other big thing about RMT is how in some games it can effect ballance or how players can use it unfairly to gain an advantage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In Lineage II you can enchant weapons. It is a costly process and has a high chance of failure but the weapons can become quite powerful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In many cases people have simply bought "X gold" and bought out all of the weapon enchants, allowing them to get an amazing weapon that they did not do anything for in game and allows them a nice advantage in the PvP setting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm fine with it if someone gets lucky or has a lot of time on their hands. But when they simply skip to the end it always does get me angered.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now yeah, personaly I am against RMTs. I am fine if it done so within the limits of the game on specific servers that allow those who enjoy the play style to play like they wish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, I personaly do not like paying extra money to get freebee items. I enjoy being in a competitive enviroment where I know that if someone has better ger than me that they earned it (or have a generous friend, hah.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as varrious 3rd party sites most of them are fairly reliable (they need to be) from what I have heard. A friend of mine had purchased gold for Lineage II (a small ammount, because of inflation you practicly needed to. Even though I objected he did anyways) and he got it safely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Finnaly its hard to really tell the effects of RMT because of so few examples. RMTs on a small scale do not effect a game much, but on a large scale they do -- as noted by both Lineage II and Everquest II bazaar servers.

[Duke_Freedom]

Duke mentions the Everquest II bazaar servers. Those are great -- for those who want to be a part of the RMT deal. Because of RMT though (not bots, most trading on those servers are done by actual players) prices have inflated to where you almost need to buy gold to keep up. Granted, yes, you can be self sustained by yourself but for some it just isn't a wanted playstyle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have to admit that I know little about EverQuest II, so discredit me for that if you want to, but I find your claim strange considering these parts of the research article:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moreover, the evidence suggests that making RMT an official part of the game has little effect on whether people do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The report also indicated that behavior on the Station Exchange EQ II servers didn't differ materially from that on servers not running the service. That conclusion suggests that players will traffic in the market for virtual goods whether it is sanctioned or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"While it is difficult to gather authoritative and accurate data" from third-party real-money trading sites, the report said, "a simple comparison of current prices for basic items shows that sales prices on Station Exchange and third-party auction services are about equal."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to the research project the amount of RMTing in the RMT-allowed servers versus the RMT-disallowed servers was not much different at all. So I maintain my stance that the claim that the differences - that you say exist - are not caused by RMT at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In fact, the positive nature of the article is suprising. So far, normal MMOG companies were continously trying to convince everyone that RMTing is 'evil' and that it has extremely negative effects for the economy of these games - Sony is clearly taking a different stance on that now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RMT trading takes away part of the game IMO. The fact is a large portion about MMOs is all about workin your way towards achieving goals with your character, and some of those goals are getting said item perhaps. To me it feels somewhat.. un-fair when I really try hard towards a goal and get what I want only to have it trumped by a guy who simply paid his way to get the same result.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why should everything be 'fair' though? The whole idea of MMOG is that they are not the same static short-game like an online game of Warcraft III, Counter-Strike and whatever else, where it is a real requirement that everything is 'fair'. To be honest, I have disliked the "but it's unfair" arguements ever since I started playing RuneScape, observing it being overused for about anything in RuneScape.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I tell you that if all the people who say that something is unfair got their way, noone would like RuneScape anymore. The heart of MMOG's is already unfair. Someone who started now has to spend less time to gain 99 in all skills then someone who started years ago. On the other hand, the people who started years ago already have those 99's and have an easier time keeping up with getting 99's in newer skills, whereas newer players will have to try and catch up, which is much harder. No matter what you may say, in essence this is unfair as well, but there is obviously no solution for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The good thing as far as the above goes is a lot of games these days are going towards loot that is "bind on pickup" to where you can't just buy it from some 3rd party website.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And this is breaking down on the second M in MMOG - Multiplayer. I have always been against untradability of items as it partly destroys a fundamental concept of these games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In many cases people have simply bought "X gold" and bought out all of the weapon enchants, allowing them to get an amazing weapon that they did not do anything for in game and allows them a nice advantage in the PvP setting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While such people do exist, they are an extreme minority.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am fine if it done so within the limits of the game on specific servers that allow those who enjoy the play style to play like they wish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would personally be fine with the solution that every game would have RMT-allowed and RMT-disallowed servers. However, as the research project suggest this would not stop RMTing taking place on disallowed servers.

[Nadril]

According to the research project the amount of RMTing in the RMT-allowed servers versus the RMT-disallowed servers was not much different at all. So I maintain my stance that the claim that the differences - that you say exist - are not caused by RMT at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In fact, the positive nature of the article is suprising. So far, normal MMOG companies were continously trying to convince everyone that RMTing is 'evil' and that it has extremely negative effects for the economy of these games - Sony is clearly taking a different stance on that now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but i'm talking about actual items in games price increased (in ingame curency, not real life cash).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The EQ II thing I've seen from experience, I played it for a while back about a year ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why should everything be 'fair' though? The whole idea of MMOG is that they are not the same static short-game like an online game of Warcraft III, Counter-Strike and whatever else, where it is a real requirement that everything is 'fair'. To be honest, I have disliked the "but it's unfair" arguements ever since I started playing RuneScape, observing it being overused for about anything in RuneScape.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I tell you that if all the people who say that something is unfair got their way, noone would like RuneScape anymore. The heart of MMOG's is already unfair. Someone who started now has to spend less time to gain 99 in all skills then someone who started years ago. On the other hand, the people who started years ago already have those 99's and have an easier time keeping up with getting 99's in newer skills, whereas newer players will have to try and catch up, which is much harder. No matter what you may say, in essence this is unfair as well, but there is obviously no solution for it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think its just that essence of sportsmanship. In no way do I want it to be 'fair' par-say, I take on people much higher geared than me all the time in MMO's. However I want the people I am up against to have gotten their gear 'legaly'. In many MMOs that is a large part (wish it wasn't but it is) of your characters power. Its almost the same as cheating in "x game here", it allows you to get ammounts of money that it near impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Like I said its just kind of the princaple of the thing to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And this is breaking down on the second M in MMOG - Multiplayer. I have always been against untradability of items as it partly destroys a fundamental concept of these games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't know if you fully understand the way it works. The two games I have played that opted for a bind on pickup system for more powerful items (keep in mind that 'bind on equip' [binds when you put it on, but you can still trade it before you do] still are in the game) are off of bosses in dungeons only. Pretty much these bind on pickup items are the most powerful and *need* a group to run through the dungeon/instance to defeat the said boss. It promotes grouping while if you can buy everything you can simply solo farm your way up buying what you need with little player interaction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While such people do exist, they are an extreme minority.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sadly it happened more than one would think on Lineage II, the game is incredibly competitive :(.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would personally be fine with the solution that every game would have RMT-allowed and RMT-disallowed servers. However, as the research project suggest this would not stop RMTing taking place on disallowed servers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously it wouldn't fully stop RMT'ing, but any messures taken can help. One of the big things is to take away the customer. Without that the RMTs are very limited.

[Duke_Freedom]

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but i'm talking about actual items in games price increased (in ingame curency, not real life cash).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But the article says the amount of RMTing in allowed and disallowed servers was estimated to be the same - then that can't possibly be caused by the RMTing?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(keep in mind that 'bind on equip' [binds when you put it on, but you can still trade it before you do]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, I was thinking of rare items dropped from NPC's that would never be tradable at all as such items exist in some MMOG's too. The binding you're talking about isn't bad.

[Nadril]

But the article says the amount of RMTing in allowed and disallowed servers was estimated to be the same - then that can't possibly be caused by the RMTing?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure really. Like I said before there really haven't been any good tests, for all I know it could be the RMTs or it could be the fact that those 2 servers were less populated (idk if they were or not). Its hard to really tell with such a subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yeah, the bind on pickup idea works nicely. In a way it kind of gets rid of what RMTs can do because you can't really make your character 'ubar' by just buying a ton of gold.

[123Yourgone]

I support RMT For this reason, jagex has no way of knowing if you payed money for an item or not, so if a vastly unbalanced trade happens between 2 high lvls they are often banned with no evidence.

 

 

 

My best friend brendan (he was 3 h1t quit on rs) Was 126 combat, all legit, i tought him to play, helped him name his acc, showed him how to lvl ect.

 

 

 

I know for a FACT he never bought any items on rs, he never had the need to he was rich enough from slayer ,farming and merchanting.

 

 

 

He had 9 santa hats and a red party hat, and was a known and trusted member in the higher lvl community, good friends with people like tugrul88 and cyrano ect.

 

 

 

Anyway, one day tugrul buys a red hat, but he is f2p and doesnt have the room for it on his acc, so he gets brendan to hold it untill he gets more bank space, the next day both of them are perm banned, niether one has any evidence at all supplied.

 

 

 

My staker which i gave brendan one of my santas off was also banned, not that that bothers me at all, but brendan lost a lvl 126 with 9 santas anda red hat, and tugrul lost a lvl 126 with 4 hats becouse jagex decided they were RMT's without a shred of evidence to support that fact.

 

 

 

Half of ROT clan was banned becouse a staker in the clan got hacked, and the hacker decided to trade 20m to 27 different people online at the time, and reported each of them for RMT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jagex has no evidence, and no way of knowing if cash exchanged hands but they will ban you anyway, so i support legalising rmt for the sake of the innocent.

[Nadril]

Thats not really a good reason to fully support RMTing, IMO, they shouldnt ban on causes like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is the thing -- you can not 'jump the gun' so to speak to try and get rid of someone because of an unballanced trade.

[123Yourgone]

Thats not really a good reason to fully support RMTing, IMO, they shouldnt ban on causes like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is the thing -- you can not 'jump the gun' so to speak to try and get rid of someone because of an unballanced trade.

 

 

 

There is no legal way of knowing if money exchanged hands, All of these bannings are done on circumstantial evidence, hell even rmts have friends, lets say:

 

 

 

Player 1 and player 2 have been good friends for years, player 1 is an RMT and player 2 is unaware of this fact, one day player 1 decides to give player 2 a rare or some cash couse he is such a good friend, player 2 will get banned for accepting items from a flagged rmt regardless of whether it was paid for or not.

 

 

 

This is why this rule should be scrapped.

[Nadril]

 

Thats not really a good reason to fully support RMTing, IMO, they shouldnt ban on causes like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is the thing -- you can not 'jump the gun' so to speak to try and get rid of someone because of an unballanced trade.

 

 

 

There is no legal way of knowing if money exchanged hands, All of these bannings are done on circumstantial evidence, hell even rmts have friends, lets say:

 

 

 

Player 1 and player 2 have been good friends for years, player 1 is an RMT and player 2 is unaware of this fact, one day player 1 decides to give player 2 a rare or some cash couse he is such a good friend, player 2 will get banned for accepting items from a flagged rmt regardless of whether it was paid for or not.

 

 

 

This is why this rule should be scrapped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most RMTs are from large companys, a very small percentage are just playing this game to make money as a single person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And thats what I said, don't ban people for trading ammounts like that. Get rid of the source of the cash.

[123Yourgone]

 

 

Thats not really a good reason to fully support RMTing, IMO, they shouldnt ban on causes like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is the thing -- you can not 'jump the gun' so to speak to try and get rid of someone because of an unballanced trade.

 

 

 

There is no legal way of knowing if money exchanged hands, All of these bannings are done on circumstantial evidence, hell even rmts have friends, lets say:

 

 

 

Player 1 and player 2 have been good friends for years, player 1 is an RMT and player 2 is unaware of this fact, one day player 1 decides to give player 2 a rare or some cash couse he is such a good friend, player 2 will get banned for accepting items from a flagged rmt regardless of whether it was paid for or not.

 

 

 

This is why this rule should be scrapped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most RMTs are from large companys, a very small percentage are just playing this game to make money as a single person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And thats what I said, don't ban people for trading ammounts like that. Get rid of the source of the cash.

 

 

 

Lets name the biggest rmts of the past few years..

 

 

 

 

 

 

The big rmters arnt chinese macroers like everyone thinks, rich merchants and stakers are the ones who rake in the cash hand over fist and can really profit from it.

 

 

 

All of these players had friends and some may have been banned for recieving gifts from them.

[Nadril]

I have a hard time beliving those guys sold more gold than the varrious companys workers combined.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Companys aren't just a couple of guys, they are massive and farm *tons* of gold.

[123Yourgone]

I have a hard time beliving those guys sold more gold than the varrious companys workers combined.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Companys aren't just a couple of guys, they are massive and farm *tons* of gold.

 

 

 

Most of the people mentioned were closing in on or over 20 billion networth.

 

 

 

Between those people being banned the rares market was probably halved, if you go to world 2 now you rarely see any one trading hats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry figured mentioning names would be ok swamp since those people all pubically admitted what they did, my bad.

[swampjedi]

No worries 123. Public or no, they're not here to defend themselves, with a few exceptions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I still think Jagex has its corporate foot on the throat of rares, trying to stomp the life out of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a question - what affect have these gold farmers had on the rares market? Perhaps some of the reason rares have slowed down is the crackdown on RMT?

[123Yourgone]

No worries 123. Public or no, they're not here to defend themselves, with a few exceptions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I still think Jagex has its corporate foot on the throat of rares, trying to stomp the life out of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a question - what affect have these gold farmers had on the rares market? Perhaps some of the reason rares have slowed down is the crackdown on RMT?

Yeah i know several high lvls with large ammounts of rares that have been banned with no evidence, 2 i know for certain are innocent, jagex really does have a problem with the rares market.