Truth... Is it worth all the angst?

[warri0r45]

Call it minor paranoia. I'm not really all that fussed, but curious. How do I come across? (as in do I push my point too much) Some people may know I've got some topics on evolution which stir up emotions in many and I was just contemplating bumping both of them but am holding off for now. You could say I have an obsession for the truth, hence why I openly invite people to throw ideas around as to why evolution is wrong i.e. what limits it, what science goes against it, etc. I'll always, through some sort of obsession you could say, go where the truth does. I want to know all there is to know and what I can rule out. I'm not exactly sure why, I guess I was just born this way.

 

 

 

So, the question is: do you see this as an unhealthy obsession? Something not worth all of the angst and skepticism? Or something you agree with? Is an obsession with truth for the good or the detriment of society?

 

 

 

If you say what you really think I'd prefer it.

 

 

 

Now I can invisage this going a few ways:

 

 

 

1) A certain topic that's been done to death flame war.

 

2) Everyone calls me an idiot (You can if you really think that :P )

 

3) We actually get some sort of discussion going out of this.

 

 

 

Lets try and go for number 3) and a bit of number 2) if you are so inclined. :P

[magekillr]

don't see a problem if...

 

 

 

if you feel the need for more discussion and wish to bump it up..then do so.

[warri0r45]

don't see a problem if...

 

 

 

if you feel the need for more discussion and wish to bump it up..then do so.

 

 

 

I'm just contemplating the reasons why those topics slid down the ladder in the first place. Perhaps they just don't want to talk about them anymore, which is fine. And there are some other resons I can think of too... but they would make me sound arrogant. 0_o

 

 

 

Anyway I was just wondering if people value the truth as much as I do (as egocentric as that sounds; I know others do, of course :XD: )

[crimsonking]

I feel that it is definatly not worth the arguements that go on here, cause they never get anywhere, when they are all over no one has a higher understanding of life, just frustration over not being able to convert anyone over to their own beliefs.

 

 

 

Really if people weren't so stuck up in thier beliefs and actually opened their minds to other views we may get somewhere in this, we would at least gain a bit of unity and respect for each other, the obessesion isn't in truth itself, but in everyones own versions of the truth, and I personally find this quite unhealthy.

 

 

 

I personally have an obsession with truth though, I do not like the thought of living in complete ignorance, and thus I am on an everlasting, and more than likely impossible search for truth.

[hohto]

I personally feel like fighting for things I believe are right. That's why I might be seen here in some longer argues. However I've realised (and still sometimes made the mistake) fighting in these religious threads isn't worth it: I personally hate it when fiction gets "proven" with fiction. Just because it's in the Bible or in the latest Donald Duck it doesn't mean anything. I will probably laugh for ages to the latest thread which I got sick of later... managed to get this one hippie to deny even the fact that the old Popes were christian.

[Sumpta]

Well first of all, you are not going to find the truth in a forum discussion. Speaking for myself, these long threads tire me out. People talk across purposes, the same argument is held over and over again, useless or non-relevant facts or not so facty facts are thrown around, links to dodgy sites, claiming to state the one and only truth, good arguments are ignored and the irrelevant torn apart,...

 

 

 

I think we all crave for knowledge and truth, but in certain areas of life, we cannot but accept we will never know it all. We are in essence fallible. Obsessing about it seems a waste of energy to me. We cannot but embrace our imperfections :D. [/end sermon]

 

 

 

Anyway, I'd advise to dig up some serious literature on the subject, rather than bump the topics.

[Bubsa]

A question of my own:

 

 

 

Do you really care what those on an internet forum think of you?

[highlanders]

No, I would say you were born with aINFP personality, according to the myer briggs test, a personality which "are on a continuous mission to find the truth and meaning underlying things". It wouldn't be surprising too, since INFP is the most common type among the 16 types. It can be another type aswell, I didn't further the research. I usually hate INFPs and the hate didn't strike me at first, maybe because its internet or ur not an INFP :lol:

 

 

 

As u said, pretty much it's ur personality.

[warri0r45]

A question of my own:

 

 

 

Do you really care what those on an internet forum think of you?

 

 

 

Probably seems that way. No. I've never really dwelled on anything here and generally never care what others think of me. When I say what do you think of me, I'm asking do you think I'm pressing my point too much (I probably wasn't overly clear there). Perhaps I'm just to empathetic.

 

 

 

And in regards to Sumpta, yeah, I've realised progressively more this place isn't where to come to persuade others or where to find truth.

[Guest]

A question of my own:

 

 

 

Do you really care what those on an internet forum think of you?

 

 

 

Yes, it might ruin my forum rep! :P

 

 

 

 

 

Warri0r I'm sure that everyone has an urge in them to discover the true meaning of life and what its all about, and the truth behind it all. Because surely in my point of view this can't all be an freak accident. So your obsession isn't anything "strange," and I'd doubt anyone would differ.

[Korskin]

Of course it's worth the angst. Angst isn't necessarily a bad thing. According to Martin Heidegger the true character of life is revealed in angst.

 

 

 

I think it's great that you stir up emotions. A debate with emotions is much more interesting than for example a thread asking if you're older or younger than your siblings. The only downside is the risk of it turning into a flame war.

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with looking for the truth. However, I don't think science is where you will find the truth. Science doesn't produce truth, only useful models of reality.

 

 

 

I'm currently living my life thinking I have found the truth. And by believing that I've found the truth, my life's top priority is to follow that truth.

[Rebdragon]

Nothing human produces definite truth (from human perspective). Then again, nothing human produces perfection, but we still strive for it. We strive to be as close to truth as possible (through science), as we strive to gain perfection within ourselves. We will never fully gain it, but the more we try the closer we'll get.

 

 

 

A question of my own:

 

 

 

Do you really care what those on an internet forum think of you?

 

Of course. We all have egos, no matter how small they may be :-w .

[assassin_696]

I think the pursuit of the ultimate truth is a very noble choice, it shows inquisition and genuine interest in what the truth really is.

 

 

 

I don't think you press your point too much, as long as you're not pedantic about it (which you're not) then there is no reason to worry about wanting the truth instead of fiction.

 

 

 

Interestingly though, a lot of people believe that the truth sets us free, whereas I would argue the opposite, but that's beside the point.

[Astralinre]

I feel that it is definatly not worth the arguements that go on here, cause they never get anywhere, when they are all over no one has a higher understanding of life, just frustration over not being able to convert anyone over to their own beliefs.

 

 

 

I'm not sure who you're talking about, because I rarely see this is in most of the people who've been around here a while. Most of the regular debaters have grown in their knowledge, understanding, and respect of their beliefs and others' beliefs. I know this is true of myself, and I've seen changes and growth in plenty of others as well. We've all become more mature, more aware, more respectful through the time we've spent debating.

 

 

 

Truth is always worth pursuing, even when it's uncomfortable, even when it's painful. The struggle for truth makes you stronger; the acquiring of truth makes you wiser. Seek it out, leave no stone unturned, no room undisturbed. The truth is out there somewhere - it may be a life's journey away, but it's there. Don't give up on finding it.

[Ambassadar]

I love the pursuit of truth. I think it is great to have the discussions on here as long as personally attacks aren't involved. You know... stuff like this...

 

 

 

managed to get this one hippie to deny even the fact that the old Popes were christian.

 

 

 

Where all I said is anyone that advocated forced conversion at the point of a sword in Christianity wasn't a Christian. That's all I said and now this guy is bringing it up laughing at me calling me a hippy. It is only instances like that where I think the debates can go too far when people start calling names or acting like they hate someone else.

 

 

 

The only other thing that is tiresome is when you have four people attacking your position and if you don't address everything they say they act like they won. It goes from being an interesting fun debate to just a lot of work. That is one reason I haven't gotten around to replying to your evolution thread because there were about three or four massive responses to my last post on there and it is a pain to take a few hours to respond to everything and make sure all my facts are right.

 

 

 

As to you though I think you are doing great and keep it up warrior. :-)

[Ozzy_Patrick]

Well personally I can't stand debating most of the time. It's the whole way many people look at it. This is typified by a lot of politicians who debate for ages when clearly they're not going to get anywhere because if one of them backs down from their side of the argument to consider for a second that the other person could have a good point they'll look weak.

 

 

 

Not saying this happens in all debates but many of the ones that I have seen have included people with a fixed idea and won't let it be swayed.

 

 

 

But finding the truth doesn't have to be about debating.

 

 

 

anyway, if finding the truth is what you really want to do then it's worth it I guess. To be honest, with a lot of things (such as science and religion) I'm rather happy just letting them be and don't really need to know the details of why the theory of evolution is more likely to be right or wrong.

[Rebdragon]

I'm not sure who you're talking about, because I rarely see this is in most of the people who've been around here a while. Most of the regular debaters have grown in their knowledge, understanding, and respect of their beliefs and others' beliefs. I know this is true of myself, and I've seen changes and growth in plenty of others as well. We've all become more mature, more aware, more respectful through the time we've spent debating.

 

Man, just look back at my account on my profile :lol: . I was so much more of a moron when I first came here; thanks Off-topic, I've learned a lot :mrgreen: .

 

 

 

Well personally I can't stand debating most of the time. It's the whole way many people look at it. This is typified by a lot of politicians who debate for ages when clearly they're not going to get anywhere because if one of them backs down from their side of the argument to consider for a second that the other person could have a good point they'll look weak.

 

Me, I like debating (as long as the responses don't get too long, that's just a burden..). Still, it's amazing the number of ways Tip.iters find a way to say (or at least try to make it look like) they didn't lose an argument.

[warri0r45]

Of course it's worth the angst. Angst isn't necessarily a bad thing. According to Martin Heidegger the true character of life is revealed in angst.

 

 

 

I think it's great that you stir up emotions. A debate with emotions is much more interesting than for example a thread asking if you're older or younger than your siblings. The only downside is the risk of it turning into a flame war.

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with looking for the truth. However, I don't think science is where you will find the truth. Science doesn't produce truth, only useful models of reality.

 

 

 

I'm currently living my life thinking I have found the truth. And by believing that I've found the truth, my life's top priority is to follow that truth.

 

 

 

I can see why you would choose faith over science and I've never really had a problem with that. It's just (not referring to you in particular) that on odd occassions, people of faith will see it as thier duty to debunk science. That's where the conflict is (well for me, anyway). The good thing about science is that it debunks itself. The good thing about faith is that you know the truth, irrespective of falliable science. Well, that's the way people should look at it, I believe

 

 

 

For me, truth lies i what I can know. That's really as simply as I can put it.

 

 

 

I think the pursuit of the ultimate truth is a very noble choice, it shows inquisition and genuine interest in what the truth really is.

 

 

 

I don't think you press your point too much, as long as you're not pedantic about it (which you're not) then there is no reason to worry about wanting the truth instead of fiction.

 

 

 

Interestingly though, a lot of people believe that the truth sets us free, whereas I would argue the opposite, but that's beside the point.

 

 

 

The last point you make is pretty spot on, I'd say. I'm sure you could discuss it on a non contentious issue, say, the human rights movement? Aside from that, many major scientific advancements had the guy/girl proposing thier idea laughed at like crazy.

 

 

 

 

The only other thing that is tiresome is when you have four people attacking your position and if you don't address everything they say they act like they won. It goes from being an interesting fun debate to just a lot of work. That is one reason I haven't gotten around to replying to your evolution thread because there were about three or four massive responses to my last post on there and it is a pain to take a few hours to respond to everything and make sure all my facts are right.

 

 

 

 

As for all of us guys ganging up on you in my topic, it's just the nature of the debate at the present time. Don't let it get to you, is my message. I, for one, would be interested to hear what you have to say on the issue but there's no need to bust your gut trying to reply in time. If you genuinely believe that it's wrong, I'm genuinely keen to hear reasons why.

[gonpost]

warri0r45, you make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

 

 

 

How do you come across? From my vantage point, one of the most open minded, interested, kind people I've seen on a forum before.

 

 

 

Is seeking the truth an unhealthy obsession? I'd certainly hope not...that's one of the things I do a lot of in my life...although I've now come to avoid the word truth after learning so much.

 

 

 

Anywho...the world could use a few more people like yourself. And please, feel free to be a little proud of that.

[crimsonking]

I feel that it is definatly not worth the arguements that go on here, cause they never get anywhere, when they are all over no one has a higher understanding of life, just frustration over not being able to convert anyone over to their own beliefs.

 

 

 

I'm not sure who you're talking about, because I rarely see this is in most of the people who've been around here a while. Most of the regular debaters have grown in their knowledge, understanding, and respect of their beliefs and others' beliefs. I know this is true of myself, and I've seen changes and growth in plenty of others as well. We've all become more mature, more aware, more respectful through the time we've spent debating.

 

 

 

Really? Guess things have changed, I had grown so sick of things that I've completly ignored the topics for a while.

[yomom1919]

I think the word in question is Truth itself. We're not really talking about truth at this point; its more of a matter of opinion. Sure, theres evidence of evolution. Theres also evidence of Jesus (as a historical figure and philosopher, lets not go into discussing the evidence of him please. Just watch the history channel 3 hr movie From Jesus to Christ for any historical facts you may pick up.) But how much evidence? Surely not enough to pass as "truth" or "fact" anytime soon. Many scientists will tell you that the theory of evolution looks promising. Few will tell you that it is the absolute "truth" of the matter. Time will tell. If you die and enter some sort of afterlife, then you have one answer. If you die, enter no afterlife, and 1000 years later scientists, over time, prove evolution, then (well you dont exactly KNOW :wink:), but others surely will. Or suppose you enter afterlife AND find out evolution exists while your in there. But these conversations will never go anywhere unless evidence permits it. And if you are going to even ATTEMPT to defeat religion with evolution, its not going to work. Religion is religion simply because of what its not; fact. It is fueld by faith. No one will ever defeat religion, simply because you cant disprove faith.

 

 

 

I was hoping, for a long time now, that the faithful would permit the factual conjecture of evolution and theories regarding it at this point, but it is too offensive to people with little tolerance and closed minds. Perhaps, when they are older and more mature, they will come to some sort of level of tolerance. However, at the time being, we must take this subject into the woods and shoot it.

[warri0r45]

warri0r45, you make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

 

 

 

How do you come across? From my vantage point, one of the most open minded, interested, kind people I've seen on a forum before.

 

 

 

Is seeking the truth an unhealthy obsession? I'd certainly hope not...that's one of the things I do a lot of in my life...although I've now come to avoid the word truth after learning so much.

 

 

 

Anywho...the world could use a few more people like yourself. And please, feel free to be a little proud of that.

 

 

 

What a wrap. :oops: Thanks. :P I'd be hard pressed to say anything foul of you, most probably because you're a thoroughly decent person. *hugs all round* lol.

 

 

 

I think the word in question is Truth itself. We're not really talking about truth at this point; its more of a matter of opinion. Sure, theres evidence of evolution. Theres also evidence of Jesus (as a historical figure and philosopher, lets not go into discussing the evidence of him please. Just watch the history channel 3 hr movie From Jesus to Christ for any historical facts you may pick up.) But how much evidence? Surely not enough to pass as "truth" or "fact" anytime soon. Many scientists will tell you that the theory of evolution looks promising. Few will tell you that it is the absolute "truth" of the matter. Time will tell. If you die and enter some sort of afterlife, then you have one answer. If you die, enter no afterlife, and 1000 years later scientists, over time, prove evolution, then (well you dont exactly KNOW :wink:), but others surely will. Or suppose you enter afterlife AND find out evolution exists while your in there. But these conversations will never go anywhere unless evidence permits it. And if you are going to even ATTEMPT to defeat religion with evolution, its not going to work. Religion is religion simply because of what its not; fact. It is fueld by faith. No one will ever defeat religion, simply because you cant disprove faith.

 

 

 

I was hoping, for a long time now, that the faithful would permit the factual conjecture of evolution and theories regarding it at this point, but it is too offensive to people with little tolerance and closed minds. Perhaps, when they are older and more mature, they will come to some sort of level of tolerance. However, at the time being, we must take this subject into the woods and shoot it.

 

 

 

If you're suggesting my drive to discuss evolution is to debunk religion, you'd be way off. I don't do it as a religious discussion, although, inevitably, they always end up that way. I'm interested in the science of it, which is that essentially microevolution is fact (look at population genetics) and macroevolution is the only hypothesis (or should I be more lenient and say theory?) we have for biological diversity which has evidnce in nature which suggests it happened. As for the bold, yeah, I'd hoped we could (as a race) all reach that point, at least. It's not that I'm asking everyone to accept it, I'm asking everyone to accept that science favours evolution and to just have faith that we're wrong and not dwell on it with some sort of fevered last line defence as if we're attacking religion.

 

 

 

Religion isn't the problem. It's fine. It's the ideology that science and atheists go hand in hand and each attempt to systematically destroy religion which bugs me.

[yomom1919]

 

If you're suggesting my drive to discuss evolution is to debunk religion, you'd be way off. I don't do it as a religious discussion, although, inevitably, they always end up that way. I'm interested in the science of it, which is that essentially microevolution is fact (look at population genetics) and macroevolution is the only hypothesis (or should I be more lenient and say theory?) we have for biological diversity which has evidnce in nature which suggests it happened. As for the bold, yeah, I'd hoped we could (as a race) all reach that point, at least. It's not that I'm asking everyone to accept it, I'm asking everyone to accept that science favours evolution and to just have faith that we're wrong and not dwell on it with some sort of fevered last line defence as if we're attacking religion.

 

 

 

Religion isn't the problem. It's fine. It's the ideology that science and atheists go hand in hand and each attempt to systematically destroy religion which bugs me.

 

 

 

Im not at all suggesting that you are trying to debunk. The statment you bolded should tell you that. My whole last paragraph is essentially exactly what you just said. I didnt go write an essay on it because alot of things are being assumed in that last paragraph. Reread it and see if you get what I'm saying.

[Rebdragon]

Or suppose you enter afterlife AND find out evolution exists while your in there. But these conversations will never go anywhere unless evidence permits it. And if you are going to even ATTEMPT to defeat religion with evolution, its not going to work. Religion is religion simply because of what its not; fact. It is fueld by faith. No one will ever defeat religion, simply because you cant disprove faith.

 

Precisely. It's like arguing with an idiot who's got his ears plugged, who continually says "lalala, I can't hear you!" as you try to argue with them. You can't win an argument if the other person doesn't even know how to or try to debate, let alone have facts to back up their points.*

 

 

 

Meh, I don't really have anything against religion, especially with all it's done for the modern world. I just don't like it when they present their beliefs as facts- just as you said, they aren't facts. It's faith.

 

 

 

*I'm talking about religion in general, not you. Let's not have people getting personal; let's keep this on topic :-w .

[warri0r45]

 

If you're suggesting my drive to discuss evolution is to debunk religion, you'd be way off. I don't do it as a religious discussion, although, inevitably, they always end up that way. I'm interested in the science of it, which is that essentially microevolution is fact (look at population genetics) and macroevolution is the only hypothesis (or should I be more lenient and say theory?) we have for biological diversity which has evidnce in nature which suggests it happened. As for the bold, yeah, I'd hoped we could (as a race) all reach that point, at least. It's not that I'm asking everyone to accept it, I'm asking everyone to accept that science favours evolution and to just have faith that we're wrong and not dwell on it with some sort of fevered last line defence as if we're attacking religion.

 

 

 

Religion isn't the problem. It's fine. It's the ideology that science and atheists go hand in hand and each attempt to systematically destroy religion which bugs me.

 

 

 

Im not at all suggesting that you are trying to debunk. The statment you bolded should tell you that. My whole last paragraph is essentially exactly what you just said. I didnt go write an essay on it because alot of things are being assumed in that last paragraph. Reread it and see if you get what I'm saying.

 

 

 

Sorry, my bad. :wall: How about that. I'm 18 and my reading comprehension skills are still questionable... :?

 

 

 

:P

 

 

 

Yeah, I can see what you're saying now, and agree, but as for factual conjecture, microevolution is a fact. As cold and hard as they come. I'd be willing to concede a degree of conjecture for macroevolution, however.