Combat requirement for quests: good idea?

[Hi9im8Here7]

I'm suprised no one has posted a thread on this topic before.

 

 

 

This concerns the fairly recent quest "Dream Mentor" along with its 85 combat requirement.

 

 

 

Personally I think it's wrong to put combat requirements on quests as it takes away the fun of trying it as a lower level to make it more of a challenge.

 

 

 

Although I myself am not a very serious quester and have never attempted it, I have heard from other people on the RSOF that the quest would be far from impossible for a lower level to do.

 

 

 

Here's a good quote from a very well-written rant from someone on the official forums. I think it pretty much sums it up.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, those lower level questers could finish Dream Mentor easily but they donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t even have the chance to do it! Please give them a chance! I think you must always let lower (COMBAT) level players be able to finish all quests and that the way to get their combat up shouldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t be by setting a combat requirement. The way to get it up should be by making the quests harder! ItÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s like another player said: ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹ÃâWe arenÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t asking for high level requirements, but for high level updates!* I totally agree with this guy, the requirements donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t make quests harder, stronger monsters do! If Jagex wants to make Quest Capes rarer, let them make harder puzzles, dungeons and monsters! With harder quests, the minimum combat level to wear a Quest Cape would settle itself, just how it did with some Master Quests like RFD and Contact!. Just turn the 85 Combat requirement in a Suggested high level combat and everything is good. Please Jagex, it wouldnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t be that much trouble!

 

 

 

Discuss away :D

[Alg]

dream mentor supposedly had the requirement because "the adventurer you help is good at everything except combat" or something along those lines. if it's like that, then there should be. for example, if a merchant wants to hire an exceptionally strong fighter, that quest should probably have a 100+ requirement.

 

 

 

that, and it discourages people that try to finish all with the lowest possible stats.

[marinedeath]

how about time requirements, like how much ingame time you've had before you can complete a certain quest? some reasonable amount of playing time at least.

[Stihl]

if a merchant wants to hire an exceptionally strong fighter, that quest should probably have a 100+ requirement.

 

Well no, I wouldn't buy that simple justification at all. If the fellow's looking for a mercenary/bodyguard, proof of competence surely can't be limited to combat level. Were you to saunter in with tales of greater demons and netherworldly apparitions - with a legend's cape and an ancient's staff as proof, no less - I should think he'd jump at the chance, and to hell with combat levels.

 

 

 

I haven't done all that many quests, but it seems to me that the requirements of every other quest I've seen made some sort of intrinsic sense. That is, you need level 31 herblore to help Mad Eadgar because you require at least that much skill to reliably prepare his Potion of Truth, and you similarly need level 20 crafting to access Shilo village because you require at least that much skill to avoid reducing the Beads of the Dead to a gaudy trinket.

 

 

 

That in mind, if I'm not mistaken, combat level has nothing to do with skill. It's is an abstract value for comparison, and largely imperfect at that, so a combat level requirement is certainly interesting. It would have been no more difficult for Jagex to say that the dream monsters are impervious to normal weapons, and you need at least 80 attack/ranged/whatever to avoid maiming yourself with whatever phantasm weapon the Oneiromancer might hand you...

 

 

 

Perhaps it's to spite those players who've been moaning for "high level quests"?

[Hi9im8Here7]

if a merchant wants to hire an exceptionally strong fighter, that quest should probably have a 100+ requirement.

 

Well no, I wouldn't buy that simple justification at all. If the fellow's looking for a mercenary/bodyguard, proof of competence surely can't be limited to combat level. Were you to saunter in with tales of greater demons and netherworldly apparitions - with a legend's cape and an ancient's staff as proof, no less - I should think he'd jump at the chance, and to hell with combat levels.

 

 

 

I haven't done all that many quests, but it seems to me that the requirements of every other quest I've seen made some sort of intrinsic sense. That is, you need level 31 herblore to help Mad Eadgar because you require at least that much skill to reliably prepare his Potion of Truth, and you similarly need level 20 crafting to access Shilo village because you require at least that much skill to avoid reducing the Beads of the Dead to a gaudy trinket.

 

 

 

That in mind, if I'm not mistaken, combat level has nothing to do with skill. It's is an abstract value for comparison, and largely imperfect at that, so a combat level requirement is certainly interesting. It would have been no more difficult for Jagex to say that the dream monsters are impervious to normal weapons, and you need at least 80 attack/ranged/whatever to avoid maiming yourself with whatever phantasm weapon the Oneiromancer might hand you...

 

 

 

Perhaps it's to spite those players who've been moaning for "high level quests"?

 

 

 

A requirement to a quest does not make it high level. Like you said, a combat level is a far from accurate measurement of skill, therefore it's not correct to have a 85 combat requirement.

 

 

 

dream mentor supposedly had the requirement because "the adventurer you help is good at everything except combat" or something along those lines. if it's like that, then there should be. for example, if a merchant wants to hire an exceptionally strong fighter, that quest should probably have a 100+ requirement.

 

 

 

that, and it discourages people that try to finish all with the lowest possible stats.

 

 

 

A storyline can be changed without much difficulty. I think at the beginning of the quest lower-levels should have the option of fighting some really strong monster to prove their high level despite the number above their head.

 

 

 

I don't see what's wrong with finishing a quest with low stats. There were alot of people who did that just for the extra challenge. I say if they can do it, let them.

 

 

 

but it's getting ridiculous how so many people are killing the dragon at such a low level and taking up training spots

 

 

 

That has nothing to do with this.

[kdb148]

Why should Jagex cater to one specific type of player? If a player decides to put an artificial limitation on their character, then that's their choice, but Jagex has NO obligation to tailor their content to these people. And if Jagex wants to create a game where combat level is important and matters for something, then they should go ahead and do so.

[Stihl]

A requirement to a quest does not make it high level. Like you said, a combat level is a far from accurate measurement of skill [...]

 

Yes - you know that, and I know that, but whether or not the untold legions of RSOF ranters (and hence the Jagex staff) know that isn't so obvious.

 

 

 

My experience with the RSOF community and the RS community in general is that both are highly susceptible to buzzwords, and "high level quests" could very easily become just that. If the glaring majority of players moaning for "high level quests" can't even quantify/qualify their expectations, I wouldn't put it past Jagex to give them exactly what they don't want - something like an exaggerated version of the release of the "dragon plate".

 

 

 

That's mostly speculation, of course.

 

 

 

[...] therefore it's not correct to have a 85 combat requirement.

 

...It's Jagex's game. If they want it to be "correct", then it's "correct".

[Hi9im8Here7]

Why should Jagex cater to one specific type of player? If a player decides to put an artificial limitation on their character, then that's their choice, but Jagex has NO obligation to tailor their content to these people. And if Jagex wants to create a game where combat level is important and matters for something, then they should go ahead and do so.

 

 

 

Jagex has never tailored to quest pures. At least until now they tolerated their existance...going out of the way to destroy people's ability to play the game the way they want to play it isn't good business :notalk:

 

 

 

The quest pures try to play the game in a way that ignores combat levels, and instead focuses on skill and intelligence to solve problems and overcome obstacles. If that's how they personally perceive the game and most enjoy it, then it makes no sense to stop them.

 

 

 

As much as you would like to think so, this isn't Jagex's game. It's the players. The players determine how popular a game is. The players decide how much money Jagex is going to make in a given year. Without the players, there is no game. Jagex's role is to listen to players and make policies and updates according to their preference. That's how capitalism works, right?

 

 

 

 

Yes - you know that, and I know that, but whether or not the untold legions of RSOF ranters (and hence the Jagex staff) know that isn't so obvious.

 

 

 

My experience with the RSOF community and the RS community in general is that both are highly susceptible to buzzwords, and "high level quests" could very easily become just that. If the glaring majority of players moaning for "high level quests" can't even quantify/qualify their expectations, I wouldn't put it past Jagex to give them exactly what they don't want - something like an exaggerated version of the release of the "dragon plate".

 

 

 

That's mostly speculation, of course.

 

 

 

That's exactly the stupidity i'm trying to get past here. For some reason so many people think that taking away a requirement would somehow "nerf" the quest. People don't seem to think things through anymore...

 

 

 

It's very unlikely that Jagex will ever understand what's wrong with dream mentor. But maybe with enough persuasion the logic will get through to them, as well as the mob of people on rants.

 

 

 

...It's Jagex's game. If they want it to be "correct", then it's "correct".

 

 

 

How "correct" something is is measured by what kind of result you want to achieve. If you want a dull game where everyone has to be like everyone else when doing quests, etc., then Jagex is on exactly the right course. But, if you want a real massive online adventure where everyone is able to do things their own way then they have some work to do.

[Bobbington]

in my opinion this was a good idea, it could have possibly been emposed on a differnt quest in a more appopreate way. HOWEVER

 

 

 

As seen in quest such as desert treasure, pures find ways to "cheat" the way though a quest. allowing people to hide behind anoyther player so as to do a quest with 0 risk. I feel the requirment means that people who do the quest are those who had the ability to do it fairly.

[Hi9im8Here7]

in my opinion this was a good idea, it could have possibly been emposed on a differnt quest in a more appopreate way. HOWEVER

 

 

 

As seen in quest such as desert treasure, pures find ways to "cheat" the way though a quest. allowing people to hide behind anoyther player so as to do a quest with 0 risk. I feel the requirment means that people who do the quest are those who had the ability to do it fairly.

 

 

 

If Jagex feels this is cheating they can always change around a quest to make it impossible.I don't care how hard it'll be for them, let lower-levels do quests!

 

 

 

Since when does a number above your head decide your tendency to "cheat"? If pures cheat eliminate their methods, don't just bar them from doing anything.

 

 

 

This is little better than steryotyping. Just because someone doesn't choose to go with the norm doesn't mean he's an automatic n00b. So many runescapians flame certain types of players for being different. It's as low as racism, because it technically is.

[Bobbington]

in my opinion this was a good idea, it could have possibly been emposed on a differnt quest in a more appopreate way. HOWEVER

 

 

 

As seen in quest such as desert treasure, pures find ways to "cheat" the way though a quest. allowing people to hide behind anoyther player so as to do a quest with 0 risk. I feel the requirment means that people who do the quest are those who had the ability to do it fairly.

 

 

 

If Jagex feels this is cheating they can always change around a quest to make it impossible.I don't care how hard it'll be for them, let lower-levels do quests!

 

 

 

Since when does a number above your head decide your tendency to "cheat"? If pures cheat eliminate their methods, don't just bar them from doing anything.

 

 

 

This is little better than steryotyping. Just because someone doesn't choose to go with the norm doesn't mean he's an automatic n00b. So many runescapians flame certain types of players for being different. It's as low as racism, because it technically is.

 

 

 

Oh no sorry I did not mean it like that, ermmm I dont know how to phrase it better, but I know what I meant :P

 

 

 

Give me some time I will think how to explain it better.

[Stihl]

As much as you would like to think so, this isn't Jagex's game. It's the players'.

 

[...]

 

That's how capitalism works, right?

 

No, I'm afraid you've got it backwards. Customers only have ownership of the same business in a communist society; a capitalist society's businesses are merely influenced by their customers. Runescape is Jagex's game - if you don't believe me, try to sell Runescape to Walmart. Let me know how it goes.

 

 

 

How "correct" something is is measured by what kind of result you want to achieve.

 

Suppose I agree with you. Aren't all updates made to get the "results [Jagex] want to achieve", bugs being a temporary exception? If they weren't, wouldn't Jagex alter them until they were? This circular logic is only tangentially relevant to the matter at hand...where are we going with this?

 

 

 

It's as low as racism, because it technically is.

 

Unless you can point out quantified data that indicates a significant correlation between race and the tendency to "be different", I'm really going to have to disagree.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, to a degree I can see what you're trying to say, but my advice to you is this: choose your words a little more carefully. As it stands, you're flirting with logical fallacy.

 

 

 

:)

[kdb148]

 

Jagex has never tailored to quest pures. At least until now they tolerated their existance...going out of the way to destroy people's ability to play the game the way they want to play it isn't good business :notalk:

 

 

 

That's not true at all, considering that we're talking about a small minority of the runescape community who have their way of playing interfered with. If they only affect a small number of people with something that makes the game better for the community as a whole, then it is, in fact, good business.

 

 

 

The quest pures try to play the game in a way that ignores combat levels, and instead focuses on skill and intelligence to solve problems and overcome obstacles. If that's how they personally perceive the game and most enjoy it, then it makes no sense to stop them.

 

 

 

Yes it does, if Jagex feels that part of the accomplishment of getting a skill cape is achieving a particular combat level. But here's the thing - nobody is preventing anyone from playing how they want - you just can't complete all of the quests now at a combat level below 85. You can still run around with your legends cape and ancients staff at level 60 to show off of you want. You just can't get this one thing, and that's fine with me. Frankly, I don't see why lower level players feel like they're entitled to be able to get the quest cape.

 

 

 

If you ask me, it's all part of the entitlement that young people feel in our society these days. They see the quest cape, and feel they should be able to get it on their terms. But that's not how it works. You get these things on Jagex' terms, and all the whining and complaining in the world doesn't mean you should get your way.

 

 

 

As much as you would like to think so, this isn't Jagex's game. It's the players. The players determine how popular a game is. The players decide how much money Jagex is going to make in a given year. Without the players, there is no game. Jagex's role is to listen to players and make policies and updates according to their preference. That's how capitalism works, right?

 

 

 

Don't give me that tripe, because it's total BS. Jagex owns the legal right to the game, not the players. The players don't determine how popular it is, Jagex does. The players don't get together and meet and decide what game they will play - gaming companies put a ton of time, effort, and money into creating a game with as wide a fan base as possible. And hopefully for them, they get it right, and the beauty of a game like runescape is that Jagex can tweak it on a weekly basis to make it better.

 

 

 

They determine its popularity by doing market research and listening to feedback, and make their decisions based on that. It's this hard work, and good decision-making that keeps the money coming in. Yes, Jagex needs players to be successful, but that doesn't give the players ownership over the game. It gives them a limited role in its development. I mean, to be perfectly honest, most players are idiots. Jagex ultimately has to decide, through playtesting and technical research, what, if any suggestions will work. And the vast majority of the game content is original Jagex content, not based on suggestions.

 

 

 

As for capitalism, that's just totally out of place here. The combat level requirement affects a small minority of players. Capitalism says that you please the majority of the consumers to stay successful. So clearly, an update that upsets a small number of players is still successful and good business if the majority of the players like it. And from what I can tell, most people were happy with the difficulty and rewards from Dream Mentor. Meaning that from a capitalist perspective, it was a success, leaving Jagex able to ignore the outcry from the few players out there upset with the combat requirement. Not to mention the fact that it might force players to explore combat more than they would have previously - perhaps opening those players up to more content they like and making them better customers, despite their initial protests.

[Hi9im8Here7]

Can someone please tell me how a combat requirement helps the runescape community in anyway? So what if PKing pures can't do it, why would they want to anyway? I understand that capitalism is about pleasing the majority but sometimes the majority just needs to shut and stop whining for awhile so the minority doesn't get shoved under the bus.

 

 

 

If you ask me, it's all part of the entitlement that young people feel in our society these days. They see the quest cape, and feel they should be able to get it on their terms. But that's not how it works. You get these things on Jagex' terms, and all the whining and complaining in the world doesn't mean you should get your way.

 

 

 

When I signed up for this MMO, my intention wasn't to do everything under someone's "terms". I have to do that enough in real life. Why should I have to take it from Jagex? Their recent updates have really gotten into everyone's faces. Even know they need to maintain this game, they should leave us alone as much as possible and let players play this game anyway they choose. Whenever I go to the runescape website it say "Runescape - the massive online adventur" on the tab. It's not much of an adventure if all you can do has to align with Jagex narrow way of thinking.

 

 

 

 

No, I'm afraid you've got it backwards. Customers only have ownership of the same business in a communist society; a capitalist society's businesses are merely influenced by their customers. Runescape is Jagex's game - if you don't believe me, try to sell Runescape to Walmart. Let me know how it goes.

 

 

 

It's our game in a sense that we're paying them and making sure that they can make a decent profit. If Jagex doesn't do what the players want, they have no game. So basically a company is the eternal slave to the customers that keep it alive.

 

 

 

 

Suppose I agree with you. Aren't all updates made to get the "results [Jagex] want to achieve", bugs being a temporary exception? If they weren't, wouldn't Jagex alter them until they were? This circular logic is only tangentially relevant to the matter at hand...where are we going with this?

 

 

 

The ultimate result Jagex wants is of course to make the funnest game possible that the most people can enjoy, correct? By putting a combat requirement on a quest, they have completely eliminated a specific group of player's ability to have fun. So, using this logic, the update wasn't the correct way to go.

 

 

 

 

Unless you can point out quantified data that indicates a significant correlation between race and the tendency to "be different", I'm really going to have to disagree.

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, to a degree I can see what you're trying to say, but my advice to you is this: choose your words a little more carefully. As it stands, you're flirting with logical fallacy.

 

 

 

Bashing people for the choices they make, slightly different than racism perhaps, but still very bad. What's really wrong with being different. In real life we're constantly urged to go with the crowd. I believe an online game should be a refuge from this.

 

 

 

Yes it does, if Jagex feels that part of the accomplishment of getting a skill cape is achieving a particular combat level. But here's the thing - nobody is preventing anyone from playing how they want - you just can't complete all of the quests now at a combat level below 85. You can still run around with your legends cape and ancients staff at level 60 to show off of you want. You just can't get this one thing, and that's fine with me. Frankly, I don't see why lower level players feel like they're entitled to be able to get the quest cape.

 

 

 

There are people out there who want to make quests a better challenge by doing them at a low combat level. Yes, you can always train to 85, but that would defeat the purpose of your role as a quest "pure". And it's not fair to say you can still play how you want. You're contradicting yourself by saying that and saying that you can't try to do all the quests and get a cape in the same sentence.

[Hi9im8Here7]

:wall: double post :wall:

[kdb148]

Can someone please tell me how a combat requirement helps the runescape community in anyway? So what if PKing pures can't do it, why would they want to anyway? I understand that capitalism is about pleasing the majority but sometimes the majority just needs to shut and stop whining for awhile so the minority doesn't get shoved under the bus.

 

 

 

It takes away a lot of the efforts people make to circumvent the intentions of the game makers in making a hard quest. A lot of low levels completed Desert Treasure by using a safe spot and/or having a friend block for them. This is clearly not what Jagex intended, and the point of having a combat requirement is to ensure that players will complete quests as intended, instead of exploiting the game engine in order to complete a master level quest at levels they wouldn't otherwise be able to.

 

 

 

See, you're a perfect example of the entitled youth of today. Basically, your post boils down to "I want a quest cape, therefore I should be able to get one however I want." No, it just doesn't work that way. Jagex wants to attach certain levels to a quest cape, and they have done so. It helps the community by making the level requirements a little more challenging. It also helps the community by keeping players from trying to exploit bugs to complete difficult quests. And like I said before, it helps Jagex by opening up more combat options to players who want to keep their quest cape, making them better customers.

 

 

 

In the end, Jagex believes this will bring them more custom. More custom means they can pay more people to develop and test new content. Which ultimately means a better game overall for all of us. So yes, in fact, it does help the runescape community, or at least, Jagex believes it does. And despite your protests, and the fact that you no doubt think otherwise, Jagex is almost certainly right. At least, it's 1000 times more likely they are right and you are not.

 

 

 

They have a team of people working on content, trying to determine what is best for the game. They've put more thought and effort into it than you ever could, and these are professionals who, given the success of runescape, obviously are very good at determining what is good for the game. It really denigrates the skill and common sense of the Jagex staff to claim that you know better than they do.

 

 

 

Now obviously, they aren't right all the time, and part of why they have been so successful is that they are willing to fix their mistakes. So if you really are right, and the combat requirement is bad for the game, eventually it will probably disappear. But why not try something new for a change - instead of being so quick to jump on them after every little update, try putting a little trust in them? They've brought you this game that you obviously enjoy very much, and every change they make is aimed at improving it.

 

 

 

 

When I signed up for this MMO, my intention wasn't to do everything under someone's "terms". I have to do that enough in real life. Why should I have to take it from Jagex? Their recent updates have really gotten into everyone's faces. Even know they need to maintain this game, they should leave us alone as much as possible and let players play this game anyway they choose. Whenever I go to the runescape website it say "Runescape - the massive online adventur" on the tab. It's not much of an adventure if all you can do has to align with Jagex narrow way of thinking.

 

 

 

This makes no sense at all. Jagex has never, ever told you how to play the game. What they do is set the game parameters, and what you can accomplish at a given level. When has Jagex EVER approached you in game and told you what to do? I mean, you've got to be kidding me. This is like saying "I want a smithing cape at level 50, it's unfair that I can't get one!" You DO have to follow the game rules, and you can't get an achievement cape without fulfilling the requirements. Nobody is forcing you to get a quest cape, but you have no right to get one just because you want it if you aren't willing to fulfill the level requirements, just like all the other achievement capes.

 

 

 

I mean, if you choose to keep your combat levels low on purpose, there are a lot of things in the game you can't do, and a lot of equipment you can't use. This is no different. Playing the game your way necessitates giving up the ability to use a lot of things. And giving up your quest cape is just one of those things you're going to have to do. Jagex isn't forcing you to raise your combat level. All they are doing is giving you another extra reward for doing so.

 

 

 

Please explain to me how putting a combat requirement on the quest cape forces you to raise your combat level. It seems to me that you aren't forced to get a quest cape. So tell me how this prevents you from playing runescape the way you want. Because it doesn't make any sense at all to me.

 

 

 

There are people out there who want to make quests a better challenge by doing them at a low combat level. Yes, you can always train to 85, but that would defeat the purpose of your role as a quest "pure". And it's not fair to say you can still play how you want. You're contradicting yourself by saying that and saying that you can't try to do all the quests and get a cape in the same sentence.

 

 

 

This is a total steaming load. Most people do quests at low levels to show off that they were able to do so. There are exceptions, but most people are interested in showing off this achievement.

 

 

 

See, you miss the point entirely. If I want to stay at level 3, then there are a ton of quests I can't do. I'm not being forced to train my combat, and I accept that there are quests I can't do. Just like, if you want to stay at level 60, you have to accept that there are things and quests that you can't do. YOU are forcing YOURSELF to raise your combat, because YOU want the quest cape. When you put limitations on yourself, you necessarily limit your game experience. This is YOU limiting your game experience, not Jagex. Stop acting like they owe you the ability to get a quest cape at your level. Because they don't.

[Hi9im8Here7]

It takes away a lot of the efforts people make to circumvent the intentions of the game makers in making a hard quest. A lot of low levels completed Desert Treasure by using a safe spot and/or having a friend block for them. This is clearly not what Jagex intended, and the point of having a combat requirement is to ensure that players will complete quests as intended, instead of exploiting the game engine in order to complete a master level quest at levels they wouldn't otherwise be able to.

 

 

 

Make the quest next to impossible to complete under level 85. Eliminate all the safespots and make everyone fight the monsters face to face. I don't care. As long as you're allowed to at least attempt the quest, it can be made as hard as they want for the pures.

 

 

 

 

See, you're a perfect example of the entitled youth of today. Basically, your post boils down to "I want a quest cape, therefore I should be able to get one however I want." No, it just doesn't work that way. Jagex wants to attach certain levels to a quest cape, and they have done so. It helps the community by making the level requirements a little more challenging. It also helps the community by keeping players from trying to exploit bugs to complete difficult quests. And like I said before, it helps Jagex by opening up more combat options to players who want to keep their quest cape, making them better customers.

 

 

 

Some people enjoy the game less if they have to do that. Not because they're too lazy to train, but because they want the prestige of the cape at level 70.

 

 

 

It's the player's job to set his or her specific goals, and it's Jagex's job to show the way to meet it. With this recent update Jagex has eliminated the goal of low level quest caper.

 

 

 

I don't think that players should get something whatever way they want, but I do think players should be able to set any goals they want. So, basically, if a player's goal is to have a quest cape at level 60, it should be possible. But it shouldn't be possible to achieve this goal without a huge amount of difficulty (no cheating).

 

 

 

 

 

In the end, Jagex believes this will bring them more custom. More custom means they can pay more people to develop and test new content. Which ultimately means a better game overall for all of us. So yes, in fact, it does help the runescape community, or at least, Jagex believes it does. And despite your protests, and the fact that you no doubt think otherwise, Jagex is almost certainly right. At least, it's 1000 times more likely they are right and you are not.

 

 

 

You're just like all those flamers on RSOF rants. You assume that just because Jagex is bigger than me that they're right and i'm wrong. If Jagex is as ignorant as you imply I highly doubt this game will be of very high quality a few years from now (you can say i'm wrong all you want, that's my opinion).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They have a team of people working on content, trying to determine what is best for the game. They've put more thought and effort into it than you ever could, and these are professionals who, given the success of runescape, obviously are very good at determining what is good for the game. It really denigrates the skill and common sense of the Jagex staff to claim that you know better than they do.

 

 

 

Now obviously, they aren't right all the time, and part of why they have been so successful is that they are willing to fix their mistakes. So if you really are right, and the combat requirement is bad for the game, eventually it will probably disappear. But why not try something new for a change - instead of being so quick to jump on them after every little update, try putting a little trust in them? They've brought you this game that you obviously enjoy very much, and every change they make is aimed at improving it.

 

 

 

I've found that the bigger something is, the less common sense it contains (just look at America :wall: ). There comes a time when big things need help and advice from small things if they hope to survive. All i'm doing is attempting to provide that advice.

 

 

 

You put far too much faith in Jagex. You're basically admitting that if they took away the combat requirement tommorrow you would change your mind about it. I realize fully that all of Jagex is updates are to improve the game, it's just that in many cases I see that they're only helping to destroy it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This makes no sense at all. Jagex has never, ever told you how to play the game. What they do is set the game parameters, and what you can accomplish at a given level. When has Jagex EVER approached you in game and told you what to do? I mean, you've got to be kidding me. This is like saying "I want a smithing cape at level 50, it's unfair that I can't get one!" You DO have to follow the game rules, and you can't get an achievement cape without fulfilling the requirements. Nobody is forcing you to get a quest cape, but you have no right to get one just because you want it if you aren't willing to fulfill the level requirements, just like all the other achievement capes.

 

 

 

Combat is different from all the other skills. If the requirement for this was 85 mining, smithing, and farming I wouldn't say anything. But combat is the number displayed above your head, and it's how most people perceive you. Now when you have a cape it's impossible to impress anybody. You're just another 85. But if you would be able to get a cape at level 65, you'd get alot more attention.

 

 

 

And combat really doesn't measure how good you are at fighting, or high level of a monster you can kill. In a skill like herblore you know exactly the level you need to make a specific potion. But you'll never know the exact level you'll need before you can survive a fight with Jad. It all depends on how good you are. That's why until now the combat requirement has always just been "be able to defeat a level x monster" and not "must be level x".

 

 

 

 

I mean, if you choose to keep your combat levels low on purpose, there are a lot of things in the game you can't do, and a lot of equipment you can't use. This is no different. Playing the game your way necessitates giving up the ability to use a lot of things. And giving up your quest cape is just one of those things you're going to have to do. Jagex isn't forcing you to raise your combat level. All they are doing is giving you another extra reward for doing so.

 

 

 

The quest pures accepted that they wouldn't be able to do everything in this game. You can force them to give up as much of the game content as you want, but don't destroy their ability to play by making their ultimate goal impossible.

 

 

 

 

Please explain to me how putting a combat requirement on the quest cape forces you to raise your combat level. It seems to me that you aren't forced to get a quest cape. So tell me how this prevents you from playing runescape the way you want. Because it doesn't make any sense at all to me.

 

 

 

If the way you wanted to play this game was to be a quest pure then Jagex has forced you to abandon it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a total steaming load. Most people do quests at low levels to show off that they were able to do so. There are exceptions, but most people are interested in showing off this achievement.

 

 

 

See, you miss the point entirely. If I want to stay at level 3, then there are a ton of quests I can't do. I'm not being forced to train my combat, and I accept that there are quests I can't do. Just like, if you want to stay at level 60, you have to accept that there are things and quests that you can't do. YOU are forcing YOURSELF to raise your combat, because YOU want the quest cape. When you put limitations on yourself, you necessarily limit your game experience. This is YOU limiting your game experience, not Jagex. Stop acting like they owe you the ability to get a quest cape at your level. Because they don't.

 

 

 

No, you're the one missing the point. Let them set a goal by attempting all the quest, and then force them to do it you're way by making progress alot slower/more tedious than the average player.

 

 

 

If you chose to stay at level three, it would be next to impossible, but you could at least try to do the quests (until dream mentor). You can't say there's a ton of quests you can't do because technically there aren't. You see, a player should be able to set a goal of quest cape at level three in they want. Then, when they find that the way Jagex lets them do it is too hard for them, they can raise their stats until it isn't. Jagex shouldn't force you to raise stats if you know you really don't need them.

 

 

 

Of course, since you KNOW you need the exact level in all the skills, this doesn't apply to anything except dream mentor.

[Wingy77]

Quests should have a decent combat requirement. Honestly, it was a thrill doing Monkey Madness with level 36 prayer and combat 70, but doing desert treasure and being able to ice barrage at level 60 is pathetically rediculous. But I think all the quests groups should have the same, except for rediculous quests. For example, Novice quests are any level. Intermediate quests are proabably 30+, maybe 40+. Experienced quests should be 70+. And Master Quests are 100+. However, certain quests that are used in the making of a pure are all 60+. Not the best idea, but it is an idea.

[King_Peter18]

Quests with combat requirements. Doesn't that just make the quest easier?

 

 

 

If you know the minimum level to start the quest, doesn't that tell you how hard that quest is?

 

 

 

I like the quests that, you go in not knowing. Then, if you are unprepared. You die.

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion, it makes quests easier.

[Wingy77]

Quests with combat requirements. Doesn't that just make the quest easier?

 

 

 

If you know the minimum level to start the quest, doesn't that tell you how hard that quest is?

 

 

 

I like the quests that, you go in not knowing. Then, if you are unprepared. You die.

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion, it makes quests easier.

 

 

 

If you look in the KB, Manual, or even here, they always give the difficulty of the quest. So there isn't that much of a difference is there? I think the combat requirements are more for preventing a level 50 from doing Desert Treasure and getting insanely powerful.

[kdb148]

 

 

 

Some people enjoy the game less if they have to do that. Not because they're too lazy to train, but because they want the prestige of the cape at level 70.

 

 

 

Exactly. They want something to show off. Why not be satisfied running around with your ancient's staff? Why is the quest cape so important to you?

 

 

 

It's the player's job to set his or her specific goals, and it's Jagex's job to show the way to meet it. With this recent update Jagex has eliminated the goal of low level quest caper.

 

 

 

And? Why should you get to decide what goals are achievable? You always have to comport your goals with the game parameters, and it's Jagex's game. THEY get to set the parameters, not you - why can't you understand that?

 

 

 

What if I want a quest cape at 1 farming? Or at 1 prayer? That is just as valid as what you want, but as you can see, it would be ridiculous for me to be upset by the fact that Jagex won't let me accomplish those goals. And I think it's pretty stupid to complain about that.

 

 

 

I don't think that players should get something whatever way they want, but I do think players should be able to set any goals they want. So, basically, if a player's goal is to have a quest cape at level 60, it should be possible. But it shouldn't be possible to achieve this goal without a huge amount of difficulty (no cheating).

 

 

 

Fine, then I want a quest cape at 1 prayer. I want a quest cape with 1 construction because I don't feel like spending any money on it. YOU DON'T GET TO SET ANY GOALS YOU WANT! And looking at the game, I don't know how you reached the conclusion that it is. Basically, you're telling me that because this is YOUR goal, Jagex shouldn't create the game the way THEY want, but the way you want. In essence, you're saying that your stupid goal is more important than Jagex or the rest of the players of this game. Give me a break, man.

 

 

 

 

 

You're just like all those flamers on RSOF rants. You assume that just because Jagex is bigger than me that they're right and i'm wrong. If Jagex is as ignorant as you imply I highly doubt this game will be of very high quality a few years from now (you can say i'm wrong all you want, that's my opinion).

 

 

 

I'm saying that because they are successful, you nitwit. They've created arguably the most popular MMORPG available today. Do you know how many thousands of game concepts fail or languish in anonymity, compared to those that are successful? I assume they know better than you because they have PROVEN they are. They aren't just some kid sitting at a keyboard mad because he lost his quest cape.

 

 

 

They have meetings, and brainstorming sessions, and hire professional game designers and market researchers. Do YOU have all those things? I feel very comfortable in saying that Jagex has 10,000 times the credibility that you do when it comes to making determinations about what is best for the game. And frankly, you are a moron if you think they're going to let the quality slip. There is too much money to be made for them to let that happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've found that the bigger something is, the less common sense it contains (just look at America :wall: ). There comes a time when big things need help and advice from small things if they hope to survive. All i'm doing is attempting to provide that advice.

 

 

 

You put far too much faith in Jagex. You're basically admitting that if they took away the combat requirement tommorrow you would change your mind about it. I realize fully that all of Jagex is updates are to improve the game, it's just that in many cases I see that they're only helping to destroy it.

 

 

 

But your advice only amounts to whinging about not being able to get your quest cape. You haven't made any valid criticisms of the combat requirement, only made fallacious ramblings about you setting your own goals, forgetting that your goals need to comport to the game Jagex gives you to play. You're talking about a VERY small minority of players who are affected by this update. That's not going to destroy the game.

 

 

 

I put faith in Jagex when the only complaints I see about their updates are "arguments" like the one you're making. For example, the wilderness ditch - there are a lot of valid criticisms of that update, and it is one that affects a good portion of the f2p, and virtually all of the p2p communities. But this update, it's not going to hurt the game in any forseeable way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Combat is different from all the other skills. If the requirement for this was 85 mining, smithing, and farming I wouldn't say anything. But combat is the number displayed above your head, and it's how most people perceive you. Now when you have a cape it's impossible to impress anybody. You're just another 85. But if you would be able to get a cape at level 65, you'd get alot more attention.

 

 

 

If your goal is attention, you don't need the cape - an ancient's staff or legend's cape will serve just as well. If that's your main argument, it's a very weak one. The cape isn't particularly impressive, no more so than other visible signs like the ones I mentioned which you can use to show off your questing prowess. Trust me, a level 65 with an ancient staff sticks out. Maybe even moreso than one with a quest cape did, before Dream Mentor.

 

 

 

And this is really what it boils down to, isn't it - you don't like that Jagex took away your method of showing off. But they didn't. Run around at level 65 with your ancient staff and legend's cape - you'll get the attention you want. I don't see why the achivement cape should matter so much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The quest pures accepted that they wouldn't be able to do everything in this game. You can force them to give up as much of the game content as you want, but don't destroy their ability to play by making their ultimate goal impossible.

 

 

 

Why not? As I said, you can show off without the cape. Why is the cape so important. Just to complete all the quests? Before the quest cape, did you even care about completing anything besides the big quests that allowed you to show off, i.e. legends and desert treasure?

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you chose to stay at level three, it would be next to impossible, but you could at least try to do the quests (until dream mentor). You can't say there's a ton of quests you can't do because technically there aren't. You see, a player should be able to set a goal of quest cape at level three in they want. Then, when they find that the way Jagex lets them do it is too hard for them, they can raise their stats until it isn't. Jagex shouldn't force you to raise stats if you know you really don't need them.

 

 

 

Of course, since you KNOW you need the exact level in all the skills, this doesn't apply to anything except dream mentor.

 

 

 

Wow. This shows your ignorance. You're aware that you NEED, for example, 25 ranged to complete Underground Pass? 50 strength for Legend's? 33 magic for The Giant Dwarf? 50 magic for Desert Treasure? There are others, as well. So no, there were already several quests that you COULD NOT attempt to do without a certain combat level. Not only that, but many quests give experience to combat stats that would further raise your level. You HAVE NEVER been able to attempt all the quests at whatever level you want, and Jagex has never intended for it to work this way. Dream Mentor just raised the bar higher.

[King_Peter18]

Quests with combat requirements. Doesn't that just make the quest easier?

 

 

 

If you know the minimum level to start the quest, doesn't that tell you how hard that quest is?

 

 

 

I like the quests that, you go in not knowing. Then, if you are unprepared. You die.

 

 

 

 

 

In my opinion, it makes quests easier.

 

 

 

If you look in the KB, Manual, or even here, they always give the difficulty of the quest. So there isn't that much of a difference is there? I think the combat requirements are more for preventing a level 50 from doing Desert Treasure and getting insanely powerful.

 

 

 

Screw the KB, I like going into a quest with my eyes blindfolded not knowing what to expect. Whahah. :twisted:

 

 

 

Besides, who said they had to tell us what the requirement is?

 

 

 

"You are not powerful enough to begin my task, come back later young friend."

 

 

 

Anyway, above post ^ nice. :thumbsup:

[Vindetta]

The combat is often times more of a warning of sorts. Lets face it, if combats to high we complain, but if there's no combat requirment and we die we complain that the quest is to hard... i posted in another thread that maybe we should stop trying to take over jagex's job... seriously, we are paying $5 and asking them to make a perfect game... not going to happen. Maybe some of the stuff is hard or hard to reach, but they are in a way reserving it for thier more "loyal" and longer played members. Not having to work to get everything you want is really bad for a person, making requirments keeps you intereseted and looking forward to the game. Someone above mentioned having to play a certain amount of time b4 doing a quest, but this is the point of requirements, plus this would just bring about tons of auto'ing...

[Stihl]

It's our game in a sense that we're paying them and making sure that they can make a decent profit. If Jagex doesn't do what the players want, they have no game. So basically a company is the eternal slave to the customers that keep it alive.

 

 

 

[...]

 

 

 

The ultimate result Jagex wants is of course to make the funnest game possible that the most people can enjoy, correct? By putting a combat requirement on a quest, they have completely eliminated a specific group of player's ability to have fun. So, using this logic, the update wasn't the correct way to go.

 

Interesting.

 

 

 

The premise of your argument here is essentially that Jagex is a desperate cash-monger which will pimp itself out for a quarter. Were that the case, though, I expect RuneScape would be very different from what it is today. There might be rules against begging and whining, perhaps servers with no censor. PvP servers. Support for real-money trading. A seed pouch. Oh, maybe even some really high-leveled quests.

 

 

 

Yet we don't have such things, and for a very good reason - The Gowers put their vision before consumer input. The ultimate result Jagex wants is not just an economically successful MMO, but the fulfillment of their vision of a popular, fun MMO that bears their style, conforms to their beliefs, operates on their terms. That kind of vision is the difference between a legend like Michelangelo, and the untold number of nameless Joes that sold generic paintings of flowers on the streets because people liked paintings of flowers in those days. Players be damned, an update doesn't see the light of day unless the Gowers say it's "correct" - the same goes for corrections and bug-fixes (because hey, everybody makes mistakes sometimes).

 

 

 

Recall, too, Andrew and Paul Gower are already mind-numbingly rich (upwards of ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâã100 million, according to the Sunday Times Rich List 2007). If every RS player up and quit tomorrow, the Gowers would still be on the gravy train for life, so make no mistake - they can afford to ignore their players if they want to. Jagex is no more a slave to us than we are to it.

 

 

 

It's their vision, their game, and we absolutely play by their terms. Make all the convoluted arguments you like; at the end of the day, when we've all left our suggestions and filed our complaints, we players have two choices: live with it, or leave.

[sithlord_man]

its better for the players...a lower level might not know what there geting them self in to...if saves them money and time