Building a Computer - a few questions

[pedm]

Alright, ive been using my parents computer, and getting kicked off when they need to use it, for far too long. So, right now im looking into building my own computer, hopefully for around $500 (USD.) I just have a few questions right now, but it'd like to post my final parts list later before I buy.

 

 

 

CPU

 

Let me just check - do dual processor CPUs have double the power than what they are listed at? Say I bought a 1.8 ghz dual processor CPU, would it really have 3.6 ghz? I mean, how much better is a 1.8 ghz dual processor cpu compared to a 1.8 ghz single processor cpu?

 

 

 

Power Source

 

Okay, I'm kind of unsure how much power I'll need through my power source. I mean, I've seen various voltages called for on CPUs and what not, but how do I know how many watts I will need for all of my components?

 

 

 

Linux

 

I certainly like the idea of now having to pay for windows, and would enjoy spending some time working with the OS, so I'm definitely thinking linux is the way to go - right now I'm looking at debian and ubuntu. What I'm wondering though, is how can I tell whether my hardware will be compatible with these types of linux? It seems like I'll need to install certain extra drivers to get the different components to function, but is there some sort of directory in which I can check that the linux driver software exists. Other than that, can anybody offer any suggestions on which versions of linux to use/how their linux installation went?

 

 

 

Thanks a lot everybody

 

PDM

[Doomster]

Dual core vesus single - it depends.

 

 

 

Some things comprehensively support multithreading, amd can make full use of two (or more) cores.

 

 

 

Some things have basic support for making use of dual core, but not necessarily with optimum load distribution as the load division is made where it's easiest to implement.

 

 

 

Other things have no optimization at all, but gain slightly from the faster despatch of background tasks.

 

 

 

We'll probably see more tuning for dual core as time goes on, with single core relegated to entry level, budget systems.

 

 

 

On a well tuned application, duel core typically gains around 80% compared to a single core.

[Nadril]

What are you planning on using this machine for? Linux is a good idea and a good OS -- however I wouldn't expect to use terribly many windows applications on it. If you're gaming heavily I would just go for windows.

 

 

 

However if you're just mostly surfing the net and what-not than Linux is a good go. I'm not sure about driver compatibility (I've never actually used Linux) but there are a few Linux people around the forums that can help with that.

 

 

 

 

 

$500 might be tough to squeeze in a desktop depending on what you need. Do you need a keyboard, mouse, monitor as well as a desktop?

[blade995]

If you don't need a monitor, speakers, mouse, and a keyboard a computer for $500 would be buildable. Especially if you would use Linux and don't have to then pay for Windows.

 

 

 

What will you be using this computer for?

 

 

 

Since this will be a budget computer I recommend AMD because they currently have the price to performance ratio of budget CPUs.

[pedm]

So for dual core, it really just depends on the program, right? Would it make more sense then for me to buy a ~3.6 ghz single processor CPU (if the price was right) cause then id get double the speed on all programs?

 

 

 

As for linux vs windows, I'm a heavy computer user but not a heavy gamer. I've seen a couple of linux programs that are supposed to run windows programs (like Wine,) but how well do they really work? If I do use Wine, should I expect all the windows programs I use on it to be slower or bugy? Whatever computer I do get, I'm going to need Macromedia 7/MX 2004, adobe premiere elements 2.0, and control monger (a game) to run well. Will they if I use Wine or some other program?

 

 

 

Right now, I'm not totally sure if I'll need all the add ons (monitor, mouse, keyboard, box, power supply) - it really depends on whether my family will let me scrap one of the older, no longer functioning computers (they want to get some files off the hard drive before anything happens to it.) If not, I might just be able to get some older stuff at my school and then upgrade it later if I need to. I'm definitely thinking CRT monitor is the way to go (for the price,) but I'm wondering, apart from size, are all CRT monitors the same? I mean, my family's old computer looks pretty bad when it's running. Is this solely because of an old/bad graphics card, or might the monitor also be bad and contributing to the bad graphics?

[oops1644]

CPU

 

 

 

Dual cores have,well, two cores. This allows them to act as two separate preprocessors (for multi-threaded programs) or act as one processor

 

(for more basic programs). If a Dual-core is listed at 1.8Ghz, which is the clock speed, it will be just as fast as any other 1.8Ghz processor, only it can do two things at once!

 

POWER SUPPLY

 

 

 

As for your power supply, it will be picked by how much watts you need. Note these are estimations only, if doubt use the higher end of the range (Low end CPU < 1Ghz, high end CPU > 2.5 Ghz and/or dual core)

 

 

 

Motherboard 15-30

 

Low-end CPU 20-50

 

Midrange to high-end CPU 40-100

 

RAM RAM 7 per 128MB

 

PCI add-in card 5

 

Low to midrange graphics board 20-60

 

High-End graphics board 60-100

 

IDE hard drive 10-30

 

Optical drives 10-25

 

 

 

LINUX

 

 

 

for all your Linux needs www.linux.org

 

 

 

MONITOR

 

 

 

CRTs are nitrous for poor image quality, burn-in, and can be damaged by magnets. However, they are cheep and in your case free. a graphics card may help but don't expect super clear high-def from it.

[pedm]

Alright, thanks for your help guys. Right now, the two CPUs I'm looking at are link and link. Blade, you recommend that I go with AMD cause it's better at my price range. Do you know what the AMD equivalents of these two CPUs would be/what better AMD CPUs I could get at this price range? I know I can't just look at clock speed because Intel's Core 2 Duos perform well at lower clock speeds than normal.

 

 

 

Thanks

[blade995]

Alright, thanks for your help guys. Right now, the two CPUs I'm looking at are link and link. Blade, you recommend that I go with AMD cause it's better at my price range. Do you know what the AMD equivalents of these two CPUs would be/what better AMD CPUs I could get at this price range? I know I can't just look at clock speed because Intel's Core 2 Duos perform well at lower clock speeds than normal.

 

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Well if the core 2 duo is in your price range, then get it. I highly doubt if you need a case, power supply and other stuff you can aford a core 2 duo on a $500 budget.

 

 

 

I'll put something together but tell me first if your absolutly sure you will need a case and power supply because that can take a good amount of money away from the other parts.

[pedm]

Blade, I just secured the use of a decent, old computer (windows 98 era.) It comes complete with a full tower case, monitor, power supply, hard drive, etc. I'm not yet sure of the exact specs of the computer (I'll probably be able to find them out in a day or so,) but this will definitely save me money.

[blade995]

Blade, I just secured the use of a decent, old computer (windows 98 era.) It comes complete with a full tower case, monitor, power supply, hard drive, etc. I'm not yet sure of the exact specs of the computer (I'll probably be able to find them out in a day or so,) but this will definitely save me money.

 

 

 

Well if it's windows 98 the hard drive will be really small. So you probably will still have to buy one.

 

 

 

The case will be fine because there all the same (except for looks).

 

 

 

The power supply may work, check and see how many watts it is.

 

 

 

You still have not answered the question, what are you using this computer for exactly? I know you said Linux but what programs?

[1alebcay]

As far as what blade said...

 

 

 

You will most defiantly want a bigger hard drive than a windows 98 era one.

 

 

 

The power supply will not work because A. it will be to low wattage (in all likelyhood) B. it won't have all the necessary connectors. and C. power supplies are on thing you really don't want to skimp on.

 

 

 

IF you aren't planning on doing very many activities that are going to be strenuous to the graphics card then here is a suggested setup:

 

 

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115013 From what you have said so far, this processor would do fine, plus if you want to overclock it does will in that area.

 

 

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138055 This motherboard is fairly low priced and has an on board graphics card that is fairly good.

 

 

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227078 Its RAM from a brand name company. If you look around you can find a better deal. (I have seen kits like this as low as $50 after rebate at tigerdirect.com)

 

 

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152025 A hard drive is a hard drive. This is a moderate sized one and is well priced for the amount of storage. (you could go with a 160gb for $50, but for an extra $15 you get an extra 110gigs.)

 

 

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106049 This is a fairly well priced DVD drive for what all you get.

 

 

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171018 I know you said you got a case with a power supply earlier, but it won't work because it won't have all the necessary connectors. (I can assure you) Also, power supplies are one thing you don't want to skimp on. Go to any hardware forums and they will tell you that.

 

 

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119077 Now I know you said you already have a case, but with the products that I chose you had roughly $100 extra, and in my opinion it is worthless to get something that is amazing and then put it in a junk case. (Also the other case probably doesn't have very good airflow, and that could really hurt. This case has excellent airflow, and in opinion looks quite nice.)

 

 

 

The total for that comes to $453 +shipping (after rebates) If I were you, I would spend any remaining money at the very least an optical mouse, and preferably some other peripherals.

 

 

 

One other tip, if you are planning to be building soon, wait till July 22. Intel is planning 50% price cuts on its processors. (It would save you probably nearly $50)

[blade995]

One other tip, if you are planning to be building soon, wait till July 22. Intel is planning 50% price cuts on its processors. (It would save you probably nearly $50)

 

 

 

Most of that is speculation, nothing has been confirmed or by how much they are going to cut them. The E4300 is already really cheap so I doubt they will cut it much more.

 

 

 

The computer suggested is perfect for you. I don't recommend onboard graphics, but if you don't game it will be fine. I have no idea if Intel graphics are fully compatible with Linux so look into that first. If not, I know Nvidia is better with Linux than ATI for drivers.

[Ember]

.

[Rhys]

About Linux, Ubuntu is a nice choice for a new user. It uses apt-get and that definitely makes installing things easier. WINE takes a bit of time setting up and can be tricky. I'm also pretty sure that you may have some emulation problems with Windows programs (they'll run slower than if they were running on Windows for a start).

 

 

 

I'd definitely stay away from Gentoo unless you know exactly what you're doing (Been there, messed it up, don't feel like doing it again). Seriously, there's a lot of work involved in installing Gentoo that really isn't suitable for a new user.

 

 

 

I've only ever used a Gnome desktop myself, so I can't really comment on that.

 

 

 

Drivers shouldn't be an issue and you can easily get a LiveCD of almost all Linux distributions to test your system. I know Ubuntu's newest installer is done from inside the LiveCD interface. Does it sound like I'm a rep for Ubuntu? (Honestly though, it is a good choice for a new user). Only problems I've ever had with drivers was the old distro of Ubuntu wouldn't work with my ATI Radeon x1600 and webcams are a pain to get working.

 

 

 

Cedega and Crossover Office cost money, don't they? They are relatively cheap but if you want to game, they are your best bet, I'd say.

 

 

 

There are plenty of people here that know about Linux than me, including Nyosuht, so don't take my advice to heart. :P

[Traxion]

actually on core 2 duo processors its like having two people stand next to each other and they both are moving stacks of paper from one side of them to another. the stacks of paper in this case are programs and the people are the processors. you start a virus scan and one person starts moving paper at 1.8ghz. you then start up a game and the other person starts moving paper at 1.8ghz. its like having two processors both running at 1.8ghz not one running at 3.6ghz. a 3.6ghz processor can finish one task quickly but the other tasks must wait until the first one is done before it gets started. core 2 duo is much better than amd on the equivalency level though. amd has better prices though and are very trustworthy though.

[ClareJonsson]

Okay I'm going to say something here that will probably annoy the Linux folk, but I do have a valid point, so bare with me....

 

 

 

If you're thinking of going down the Linux road, you want to consider one huge point: Will the applications and games you presently use, run on Linux, or is there equivalent software available? If not then I bet you will eventually be going back to Windows.

 

 

 

Please don't think I am a MS fangirl here, my laptop runs Kubuntu and I love it, but I will never run a Linux distro on my main PC because at least 60% of the software I use won't run on Linux. Also running Windows in emulation is not going to cut the mustard, especially for games. I find you need every scrap of GPU/CPU to get the game running with all the bells and whistles turned on. Not only that, a lot of the Newer games will be DirectX 10 only, and that means not even XP will be able to run them as there are no plans releasing an XP DX10.. Mainly because DX 10 is designed for the new Vista graphics and audio model, which will require a major re-write of DX 10 for an XP version and I don't think MS will be doing that. So, looks like you may even settle for Vista (Ducks to avoid the obscenities thrown this way :-s ).

 

 

 

But ignoring all that, if you are able to use all your favourite software natively on Linux, or you can find alternate solutions, then absolutely go for it. It's more solid and by far more secure than Windows, and it has support that is second to none. And I think you will find the learning curve of Linux a lot of fun.

 

 

 

Good luck in whatever you decide.

 

Clare.

[pedm]

Hello again all. Thanks for all of your responses; I just got back from a week of camp in NH, so hopefully I can go through them now and buy the final parts in a couple of days.

 

 

 

Blade, probably the most specific way I'll be using my computer is in running macromedia 7, adobe premiere, and control monger (a fps game.) As long as I can get those programs to run on my computer while under linux I should be set - there seem to be hundreds of other programs I can use to replace my less specific computer uses (email, music, aim, etc etc.) So really, I want whatever computer I build to be strong enough to handle video editing (if it can do this well it should be able to do everything else.)

 

 

 

Just a question about usage though. Does anybody know anything ready about things being "DVD Ready?" I mean, obviously the cd/dvd drive has to be able to, but what about monitors and video cards? I was reading through a computer book (somewhat outdated) and it said to look for this. Is this going to be an issue today?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1alebcay, your computer looks really good. The memory, PSU, HD, and DVD drive all look really good. One thing though, I definitely don't think I need a new case. Yeah, the one I have doesn't look that great, but I'd much rather have a more powerful computer than a snazzy looking computer. I was actually really impressed when I opened up the windows 98: it had great airflow (2 fans to main, 1 fan to PSU) and was extremely roomy on the inside.

 

 

 

Also, I think I would much prefer an external video card (nvidia) for some of the stuff I plan on doing (videos and some games my friends are recommending to me.) Now, I really don't know much about how sound cards vary, and am still looking into what equipment I would need to network my family's computers, so how would you say the motherboard you recommended fares in those areas?

 

 

 

Anyways though, if I do go for a new motherboard without the onboard graphics/video/lan, I'll have $150 (minus a bit for shipping) to spend on a motherboard, sound card, and video card (i'll deal with networking stuff later.) Anybody have any recommendations on what to get? And at my price range, would it be better to put all $150 towards a motherboard/video/sound, or should I invest some of it into a stronger CPU?

 

 

 

 

 

As for nyosuht's suggestions on athalon64 X2, does anybody know how an athalon CPU compares to a core 2 duo? How high of a ghz athalon CPU would I have to get for it to be equal to a 1.8 ghz core 2 duo CPU?

 

 

 

Everyone seems to be right about me needing a new PSU - I've done some reading and it seems that the older PSUs might have enough watts, but they don't deliver enough energy on the 12V line b/c older computers never demanded so much from that line. So, since I already have a pretty decent case, I think I'll just go and buy a good PSU alone.

 

 

 

As for linux nyosuht, yesterday someone else told me pretty much the same thing you did - that ubuntu is easy to set up but limited, that debian is much better, but again that gentoo would be fuller, although much tougher. I just transfered to a course on learning linux (some dirt cheap edu programs at a nearby college,) so I think I'm going to try my hand at gentoo. I'd love the challenge of learning its full runnings and should be able to do so successfully with the help of the teacher of that course (he really seems to know his stuff.) And if I can't plod my way through gentoo, I'll just fall back to either debian or ubuntu, I'm in no big rush.

 

 

 

Desktop wise, I guess I'll just try all four out once I get the computer going.

[blade995]

As for nyosuht's suggestions on athalon64 X2, does anybody know how an athalon CPU compares to a core 2 duo? How high of a ghz athalon CPU would I have to get for it to be equal to a 1.8 ghz core 2 duo CPU?

 

 

 

What 1.8ghz core 2 duo? The E4300 or E6300/E6320? Anyways, you would need a athlon 5400+ to equal that.

 

 

 

If you are looking to play games, don't consider Linux. It probably will not support the games you friends are suggesting. You will need Windows to game. If you want to run linux for everything besides games, you can by setting up a dual boot.

[Ember]

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[das1330]

as far as your motherboard vs better processor, go for a better motherboard easily. you wont have enough money to do descreite graphics (a card) so good intigrated is a must. I would go for intel processors right now, they are easily more powerful. If you would like to look at some benchmarks yourself

 

 

 

tomshardware.com is a good resource.

[blade995]

July 22 is the date to wait for. Intel is having another price drop with their core 2 duo line of processors. Right now AMD and Intel are tied for price to performance ratio in the mid-range and Intel tops the high range. After this price drop it should put them in the lead on everything (for a little while until AMD's Barcelona chips come out)

 

 

 

Oh somebody said they need proof that Intel overclocks higher than AMD? Well it should be obvious because Intel processors run on a 65nm scale while AMD's are still on the 90nm scale and transitioning to 65nm with some problems.

[sycrat]

Gah, I just bought my Core 2 aswell... oh well..

 

 

 

Anyway about WINE and those programs you want to run, that game that you speak of should run fine AS LONG as it supports OpenGL, It may work if it doesn't but it definately won't make use of your graphics card.

 

Now about the macromedia and adobe collection... I haven't yet tried it but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work without bugs, It's pretty hard to get a program that complex to run fine in an operating system it wasn't made for.

 

As for speed with WINE, it doesn't slow down the program at all unless of course you are running ****loads of other programs in the background.

 

 

 

All that I have said is based on Ubuntu, I don't regularly use any other Distro, ubuntu 704 is the way to go for me, My system is currently dual boot-able so that I can play my high end 3d games properly in Windows...

 

 

 

If you are planning on ever dual booting your system put Windows on first so that GRUB (the linux boot loader) can be configured to find your windows operating system.

 

 

 

Hope this helps

 

 

 

~Sycrat@ZENDORA

[pedm]

Blade, the CPU I was talking about was the core 2 duo 4300. I just searched newegg for athlon 5400 prices, and they cost about $150. If they are equivalent, then I should deff go for the core 2 duo (especially with the upcoming price drop)... thing is, there's still no good way to know for sure if they are in fact equal.

 

 

 

Nyosuht, I definitely think I'm going to go for a video card, at the very least. I've found some pretty decent stuff ranging from $50-$80 (which is all better than the video card I'm using right now)(see here.) Since I am buying a graphics card though, I'm guessing that I should find a different motherboard, seeing how I'd be paying extra for on board graphics on the one 1ale suggested. Besides making sure the motherboard has all the right connections, what do I need to watch for when comparing? Any factors in speed? And any way to tell the quality of the on board sound?

 

 

 

And sycrat, is there any way to dual boot with linux on first? Right now I'm planning to just use linux, try out the programs I need through wine and then decide whether it would be worth it for me to buy a copy of XP, or just switch over to the family comp whenever I'm using any of the non linux programs I know and love. If I think I really need windows I'll get it, but it will be outside of the $500 I plan to spend on the computer right now (I'll have more money by the end of the summer.)

 

 

 

By the way, have any of you had past experience with "Open Box" items on newegg? I can save $50 if I order this instead of this. The question though: is it worth it?

[blade995]

Blade, the CPU I was talking about was the core 2 duo 4300. I just searched newegg for athlon 5400 prices, and they cost about $150. If they are equivalent, then I should deff go for the core 2 duo (especially with the upcoming price drop)... thing is, there's still no good way to know for sure if they are in fact equal.

 

 

 

Nyosuht, I definitely think I'm going to go for a video card, at the very least. I've found some pretty decent stuff ranging from $50-$80 (which is all better than the video card I'm using right now.) Since I am buying a graphics card though, I'm guessing that I should find a different motherboard, seeing how I'd be paying extra for on board graphics on the one 1ale suggested. Besides making sure the motherboard has all the right connections, what do I need to watch for when comparing? Any factors in speed? And any way to tell the quality of the on board sound?

 

 

 

And sycrat, is there any way to dual boot with linux on first? Right now I'm planning to just use linux, try out the programs I need through wine and then decide whether it would be worth it for me to buy a copy of XP, or just switch over to the family comp whenever I'm using any of the non linux programs I know and love. If I think I really need windows I'll get it, but it will be outside of the $500 I plan to spend on the computer right now (I'll have more money by the end of the summer.)

 

 

 

I lied, by looking at the benchmarks again the E4300 is closer to the amd 4800+ cpu. The Intel price drops I have been reading about have not mention of the E4300 dropping. It's pretty cheap anyway at $120 (last time I checked). Benchmarks here . Although be careful when reading those benchmarks because it can get confusing, pay close attention to the model names and the core of the cpu, especially with the athlons that have many different cores.

 

 

 

There is a dual boot loader that will boot Linux first, the default one. Well I know the default one in Ubuntu boots linux first if you do not select windows.

 

 

 

One thing to watch for when comparing motherboards is that it supports your cpu correctly. If you do go an AMD approch as long as you get the right socket, it will run on that motherboard. Intel is a little more complicated than that.

 

 

 

Another thing to look for is a good brand. Good brands include ASUS, Gigabyte, DFI, MSI, Epox, Foxcon, and Biostar (depends on which motherboard). I recomend not getting something too fancy, you don't need (or can aford) a expensive motherboard so don't spend over $100 on one.

[pedm]

Hey there. Well, I've finally had time to go through and look at parts, so I think I've got my pretty much final list right here. I just want to check these parts over with everyone here one last time, and then buy the stuff tomorrow. Anyways...

 

 

 

CPU

 

 

 

mobo

 

 

 

RAM

 

 

 

graphics

 

 

 

HD

 

 

 

PSU

 

 

 

Writable DVD/CD

 

 

 

All in all, that comes to $495.93, after rebates, with only $15.82 in shipping. Any last comments/suggestions?

 

 

 

Thanks to all

 

Patrick