A restyling of tip.it forums.

[Gamerr]

I've suggested this to the tallest1 like 2 months ago, they said they would think about it but I would like to know what the public thinks about it.

 

 

 

I'm in favour of a big re-styling of tip.it. Is tip.it forums bad? No, not at all but a little *erm* boring. (i'm only talking about the FORUMS, not about the website in this post btw, website is great).

 

 

 

My idea could be seen as taking a corner of 180ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâð. I'd do a restyling of the boards (not necessarily a new system like invisionfree), which would mean a custom made skin (could be in the form of a competition?) and a new "logo" for the boards. Ofcourse, we would need a name. For me it's simple. "Scapeboard" is fine? Ofcourse it ressembles to the old scapeboard and some people could say it isn't a good idea. But I explain why I'd like to see scapeboard return.

 

 

 

1. Twist or turn it how you want, ScapeBoard has been one of the best (if not the best) RS boards that have ever excisted. I ain't playing mr old school here who wanna brag with the past, but it would attract many -interested- players who have heard about it, who maybe don't even know these boards were scapeboard before 2004.

 

So in short words: The name only would rebrush tip.it's bad reputation of severeness. (a new -improved- staff would be the proof of that).

 

 

 

2. I've said it on another board, but I'm really serious. Tip.it has quite a lot of traffic, but not enough. The clan discussion boards are dead, and I quite laugh with the attempts of "revamping" them. I ain't saying I can do it better, but if the method we're doing now doesn't work, try something else . Therefore I'd take a risk. When ScapeBoard would return, the clan discussions would be totally restyled. Under the eye of a few super moderators, we -users who know those people- could contact warlords/high staff of the clans that matter atm. example: DI warlord, THE councils, Corr warlords, EH staff etc. It is NOW the time to do this. RSCommunity is lacking with biased mods, and people see no alternative. So scapeboard could fit in that position. If you give clan discussion back to the clan world, they will come immediately. Corr already tried to be active, but didn't stay because of the lack of other clans. THE/TF-members are enough on these boards, and DI was a fervent ScapeBoard user.

 

 

 

3. If we would restyle tip.it forums, a new name, we also need nicer avatars etc. Give every clan an own avatar, so people see immdeately who is who in clan discussion. Make the boards themself alive, fresh & irresistable. We got enough good artists who would offer their services if their work would be seen by thousands of users.

 

 

 

4. Ofcourse, a new name, a new board, and even nice avatars and stuff isn't enough. Now we come to the point I've been flamed for many times, but I'll keep trying. A re-style of the staff. As I said in one of my erlier points, for clan discussion you need staff who is known. People will come and respect those people. Yes it's a risk, but if you're council in THE for example you're mostly a person who can handle a leading position. That's what I miss here, the moderators who are applied to CD are pretty good, but nobody knows them in the broad clan world. So hire some "big fish" as I would call it.

 

 

 

5. I never like the idea of staff > users. Scapeboard would be more user friendly. Users could decide on ideas in mass polls, users could cỏ̮̦̉porate in brining in new users etc.

 

 

 

6. You know what would draw attention? A sort of video together with a sort of commercial post that would be made to announce the return of ScapeBoard. Make it big, put a countdown clock above the banner so users really get interested in what would happen on date X. PM also a lot of people and advertise on clansites. We need ofcourse a lot of people, and not only users but also clan discussion staff. No applications etc, but just if for example the high council of DI & THE are in the same staff, they could have staff meetings about interclan stuff without having to pm eachother on boards. Tip it has to offer something other helpsites doesn't, and here ofcourse the clan discussion has such possibilities I don't understand nothing happens.

 

 

 

7. General Discussion etc could be improved too. I'm sure the older admins have databases of ScapeBoard, so maybe there could be a weekly poll which popular topics users would like to see back. (admins would select a few then).

 

 

 

 

 

All these suggestions could turn out great, and maybe you've noticed I focused a lot on the CD boards, because that's where we could get hundreds of users more then we have now.

 

 

 

So what do you think?

[Guest]

Great ideas there Gamerr. I'd really like to see Tip.it freshen up its forums. Try something different and re-invent themselves, to increase its members further.

[DarkDude]

Just going to say a few things.

 

 

 

Being incharge of a clan forum is A LOT different from being incharge here. For example just because you're good at driving cars it doesn't mean you'll be good with motorbikes.

 

 

 

Changing the name back to Scapeboard would achieve nothing. If you have for example terrible product of some kind, and rename it "Best ___ Ever!" it's still a rubbish product and nothing will change that. (Not saying that tip.it is bad though, just saying that a name means nothing)

 

 

 

You already have multiple themes you can choose from, some more could be nice but honestly, who cares?

 

 

 

There's already a section in our profiles where we can display what clan we're in which appears when we post. People already have avatars, so if clans wish to do so they could give one to their clan members to use.

[Gamerr]

Darkdude, all your comments are -in a way- true. But do you have better ideas to re-alive the clan discussion boards & tip.it as a whole?

[InkofDeath]

This is mainly to improve the Clan Discussions Boards, since the rest looks a bit iffy. I agree that PK, or clan related boards are dead, probably because the userbase is mostly skillers, and only once in a blue moon pkers. I do agree though, Tip.It needs to get the boards(if not all) more integrated with the users.

 

 

 

A custom-made skin? If you did this as a contest, you'd get hundreds of people making a skin, just for the fact of having their skin on Tip.It, which would be a very large achievement.

 

 

 

Let's not re-name Tip.It to ScapeBoard, renaming is pretty useless...

 

 

 

So your going to get well-known players to become a part of Tip.It staff, just so Tip.It is known more, and so we can attract little stalkers who only post spam to suck up to their favourite user? Yea, sounds so fun. -.-

 

That's not to mention if the person even does their job.

 

 

 

But I do agree, Tip.It does need to get more users into that CD board.

[Gamerr]

So your going to get well-known players to become a part of Tip.It staff, just so Tip.It is known more, and so we can attract little stalkers who only post spam to suck up to their favourite user? Yea, sounds so fun. -.-

 

That's not to mention if the person even does their job.

 

 

 

Not to be a part of the staff, but just able to moderate the CD boards. It won't get the rank moderator, but just a user with moderating powers.

 

 

 

It's the only way I see to get more traffic in graveyard/CD, but if you know something else...

[InkofDeath]

Not to be a part of the staff, but just able to moderate the CD boards. It won't get the rank moderator, but just a user with moderating powers.

 

So when their clan loses against another clan, and his clan says they cheated, he ignores the rules, and changes everything so it looks like the other clan did cheat, which they may or may not have. Taking users from clans and making them mods, creates biased views on wars, and a greater friction between main clans, and pure clans.

[Gamerr]

Not to be a part of the staff, but just able to moderate the CD boards. It won't get the rank moderator, but just a user with moderating powers.

 

So when their clan loses against another clan, and his clan says they cheated, he ignores the rules, and changes everything so it looks like the other clan did cheat, which they may or may not have. Taking users from clans and making them mods, creates biased views on wars, and a greater friction between main clans, and pure clans.

 

 

 

I think you really have no idea how it goes around on clan boards. Maybe on RSCommunity they can do that, because most of the staff is from the same clan. But if you hire 1 high staff member of every top clan, they all could cỏ̮̦̉porate.

 

 

 

Again, maybe not the best idea, but do you have a better idea to boost up the popularity of CD?

[InkofDeath]

I think you really have no idea how it goes around on clan boards. Maybe on RSCommunity they can do that, because most of the staff is from the same clan. But if you hire 1 high staff member of every top clan, they all could cỏ̮̦̉porate.

 

 

 

lol, you honestly think clan members from top clans are going to get along, on the same board, with issues that would relate to their own clans? I'm in the clan world, so don't think I can't roughly predict what would happen putting members from different clans to moderate a board in would do. It will become extremely disfunctional and will not produce positive results, and will be upsetting for the user.

[Kevin_]

I think you really have no idea how it goes around on clan boards. Maybe on RSCommunity they can do that, because most of the staff is from the same clan. But if you hire 1 high staff member of every top clan, they all could cỏ̮̦̉porate.

 

 

 

lol, you honestly think clan members from top clans are going to get along, on the same board, with issues that would relate to their own clans? I'm in the clan world, so don't think I can't roughly predict what would happen putting members from different clans to moderate a board in would do. It will become extremely disfunctional and will not produce positive results, and will be upsetting for the user.

 

Lol, you're in the low division of the clan world. I never even heard of the your clan, and i browse all big clan forums. You don't know what you're talking about. Offcourse people wont get along, that's kinda obvious.

[InkofDeath]

Lol, you're in the low division of the clan world. I never even heard of the your clan, and i browse all big clan forums. You don't know what you're talking about. Offcourse people wont get along, that's kinda obvious.

 

Try medium division. :)

 

Browsing the clan forums isn't enough to evaluate a clan, then categorize it, I'm pretty sure you ignore a lot of clans simply because they aren't even popularized. :-s

 

I really don't want to bring in my clan background(overall clans), but I think you view the level 110+ clans, which yes are popular among the skillers, but for hardcore clanners, they are just another high level clan, who have been around for 3+ years. So because I no longer view or discuss too much about high level main clans, I am an idiot when it comes to clans? I think I know more about clans then you do about toast, and if you do know more, I hope to see you have a registered account on RSC, PC, and seeing as you think you browse all the big clan forums, which I highly doubt, you should have somewhere around 300 posts on each forum on average?(I'm talking both main clans, skiller clans, and pure clans)

 

--

 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out there would be arguments, or flame wars.

[____]

A custom-made skin? If you did this as a contest, you'd get hundreds of people making a skin, just for the fact of having their skin on Tip.It, which would be a very large achievement.

Forum skins aren't exactly easy to make - and i mean good skins - and from the people who could do it have already suggested it but the therm 'in-house' was the reply given from admin last time... generally to do with security (makes no sense to those who understand the software, but whatever).

[InkofDeath]

A custom-made skin? If you did this as a contest, you'd get hundreds of people making a skin, just for the fact of having their skin on Tip.It, which would be a very large achievement.

Forum skins aren't exactly easy to make - and i mean good skins - and from the people who could do it have already suggested it but the therm 'in-house' was the reply given from admin last time... generally to do with security (makes no sense to those who understand the software, but whatever).

 

Yea, I kind of forgot about the security thing. :oops:

[Gamerr]

All the contra's to my ideas have a point, but my main meaning is to discuss the near and far future of tip.it. I know RuneScape attracts mainly a young crowd, but does this mean that you can't have good discussions? I mean, on GD there's honestly not 1 topic I really say " Wow, this looks interesting ". I'm not saying I can do it better, but still.

 

 

 

My views on tip.it aren't negative at all. The website is fantastic, the guides are very good written but... The forums doesn't represent the quality you should expect. Tip.it forums has been too childish lately. People will say: "Well, are you so mature then?". Maybe not, but you cannot admit theres a flood lately of useless topics, some subjects (p2p vs f2p, bank space, autoers) are so much used in topics that I really don't like reading the forums anymore. Why am I still here? Because I hope it will get better.

 

 

 

If I look in general where tip.it needs to improve, I see 2 categories. General Discussion, Rants and Graveyard are quite inactive, and Clan Discussion is nearly dead.

 

 

 

My idea to put a lot of high ranked clan people in some sort of "staff" may sound stupid, because "how would they get a long", but Skatedog I've been in THE-clan for a long time. And I know that when leaders talk to eachother it's always with respect. And so what if there are some arguments? It's better that CD is alive rather then no-one posts. I don't say this is the best way, but we tried to promote the present tip it on some clan forums but it didn't get a positive respond. Many users still remember tip it from the too severe staff, and that you cannot discuss anything. The present clan moderators do a good job, but they don't have enough feeling with the top clan world.

 

 

 

I don't understand you Skatedog. I'm not picking on you, but in your reply I recognise a lot what kept me away from tip it for a while. Ofcourse there will be flaming, but do you honestly think there will be more flaming then good discussions? And there are ways to prevent flaming eh, but no let's stay on the present -safe- clan discussion. Nobody posts, page 1 has topics made a month ago and things like that. Is there no ambition to get tip.it back into the clan world? No problem for me, but let me know.

 

 

 

About GD & Rants, I am quite annoyed with that. Honestly, 80% of the "rants" are just whiners who have just been confronted with the "bad reality" of autoers, scammers and stuff like that. Other rants are something like "Oh no, I've been killed in wilderness!" and I have to control myself not to say "It's your own fault". But a few days ago I really laughed with one post. There was a rant from some guy who was mad because some people reacted mean on autoer rants. We shouldn't say: "This topic has been made a lot of times, use the search button or face reality" but we should support him in his ("original") rant. Just to say it's not really fun to post here anymore. Everything you say gets quoted, people always feel you attack them personally and especially you're not allowed to give critisism.

[InkofDeath]

All the contra's to my ideas have a point, but my main meaning is to discuss the near and far future of tip.it. I know RuneScape attracts mainly a young crowd, but does this mean that you can't have good discussions?

 

The near future of Tip.It if nothing was done to CD, or Graveyard, they would probably be deleted, or act like they are deleted. I know that's your one point, and your other is also to get some maturity levels back onto the forums, I agree to both, I just don't like how your suggesting them to be resolved.

 

 

 

If I look in general where tip.it needs to improve, I see 2 categories. General Discussion, Rants and Graveyard are quite inactive, and Clan Discussion is nearly dead.

 

General is quite bad, and there's already at least two topics where you could discuss that problem a little better, but it does need to be fixed. General is inactive...same with Rants, its just the same things being posted over and over. Graveyard, and CD are(more on them below).

 

 

 

My idea to put a lot of high ranked clan people in some sort of "staff" may sound stupid, because "how would they get a long", but Skatedog I've been in THE-clan for a long time. And I know that when leaders talk to eachother it's always with respect. And so what if there are some arguments? It's better that CD is alive rather then no-one posts. I don't say this is the best way, but we tried to promote the present tip it on some clan forums but it didn't get a positive respond. Many users still remember tip it from the too severe staff, and that you cannot discuss anything. The present clan moderators do a good job, but they don't have enough feeling with the top clan world.

 

It's not stupid, its brilliant, if they would get along. When any leader talks, the respect is fabulous, but its quite different with Council, or down the chain, regardless of clan(no offense, don't flame me). First before I go on, I want to break it down, to see if I'm missing anything:

 

1. They moderate the boards

 

2. For how long do they moderate before CD becomes alive, or how are people attracted to the CD boards?

 

 

 

Problem two as you've explained earlier can be done by advertising, but I don't think Tip.It has the money to put an ad in google just for the CD boards, they'd rather do a Tip.It one...? Manually advertising can also give yourself a bad name, and almost makes you look desperate. Which is probably a no-no with the Admins/Staff. If someone everything goes greatly positive, and by this I mean an entire advertising compaign needs to be launched for it to be successful, and users do start to post in CD, can you give examples of what features Tip.It would give to the users, so that they don't leave and go to RSC. Let alone get rid of the sign on Tip.It that says we're a skilling community more(by more, the majority of users, and past polls) then a PK/Clan community? What will keep them here, surely if they stay only because of the some-what famous moderators in there, what kind of quality posts are you going to get?

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand you Skatedog. I'm not picking on you, but in your reply I recognise a lot what kept me away from tip it for a while. Ofcourse there will be flaming, but do you honestly think there will be more flaming then good discussions? And there are ways to prevent flaming eh, but no let's stay on the present -safe- clan discussion. Nobody posts, page 1 has topics made a month ago and things like that. Is there no ambition to get tip.it back into the clan world? No problem for me, but let me know.

 

You don't have to understand me, you just need to know, I'll debate on a topic to the stone age, whether I agree with it, or not. I'm not picking on you, I'm picking on your idea. Do you think moderators or supervisors from popular clans will bring good discussions, more then what they will bring along with them? We can't predict what will happen, but flamming, useless replies(something Tip.It wants to get rid of), and good discussions will come in waves, and does Tip.It want to take the heat for that? Or the scars of the after math? It's great to think of bringing the CD back in this way, but the user's and Tip.It's rep, also have to be considered. I don't think Tip.It(and I'm guessing, I'm not speaking for Tip.It)has lost ambition to get the dead boards active again, its probably in the back of their heads, haunting them as they sleep, or do work. But something more important pops up. Bringing the CD boards back to alive, already sounds like tons of work, nothing Tip.It can't do, but I'm pretty sure Tip.It wants to get a lot of things done before they put the time and effort into bringing the dead boards back to live.

 

 

 

About GD & Rants, I am quite annoyed with that. Honestly, 80% of the "rants" are just whiners who have just been confronted with the "bad reality" of autoers, scammers and stuff like that. Other rants are something like "Oh no, I've been killed in wilderness!" and I have to control myself not to say "It's your own fault". But a few days ago I really laughed with one post. There was a rant from some guy who was mad because some people reacted mean on autoer rants. We shouldn't say: "This topic has been made a lot of times, use the search button or face reality" but we should support him in his ("original") rant. Just to say it's not really fun to post here anymore. Everything you say gets quoted, people always feel you attack them personally and especially you're not allowed to give critisism.

 

+1 :-#

[Gamerr]

It's not stupid, its brilliant, if they would get along. When any leader talks, the respect is fabulous, but its quite different with Council, or down the chain, regardless of clan(no offense, don't flame me). First before I go on, I want to break it down, to see if I'm missing anything:

 

1. They moderate the boards

 

2. For how long do they moderate before CD becomes alive, or how are people attracted to the CD boards?

 

 

 

I'll go more into detail. The idea would be the next: Tip.it would give some people the oppurtunity to promote the Clan Discussion. There would be made a sort of post (where people who don't know tip.it or people who do but left for things in the past) which will have the content of what tip.it has to offer. Clan discussion is maybe dead, but the big advantage is that we can start from 0. And so we ask all the clans for their participation. It will take a while, but if many clans are interested they could bring in suggestions on a special board what they would like to see. That way we don't have to think out things people of the clans end up not to like.

 

 

 

No moderating powers will be handed out, but I am just saying IF you choose new staff maybe try to choose someone who is active in one of the high ranked clans.

 

 

 

Problem two as you've explained earlier can be done by advertising, but I don't think Tip.It has the money to put an ad in google just for the CD boards, they'd rather do a Tip.It one...?

 

 

 

The only advertising I mean is just by letting people from all clans know (by posting some sort of post) tip.it has a clan discussion that could be built up and better then the alternative of RSCommunity they have now.

 

 

 

Do you think moderators or supervisors from popular clans will bring good discussions, more then what they will bring along with them?

 

 

 

I mean in the first place more people. If Corr posts their weekly/daily PK run in results, people will come look. People will discuss what they do. If DI, TRWF, The, EH, TR etc would do that too, more people will come & discuss. It would attract at first more users, and they will start posting kills in Graveyard, stake results etc.

 

 

 

 

 

We can't predict what will happen, but flamming, useless replies(something Tip.It wants to get rid of), and good discussions will come in waves, and does Tip.It want to take the heat for that? Or the scars of the after math?

 

 

 

I don't say tip.it needs to take steps without thinking out every step. But as for clan discussion & the wilderness boards it's really not getting worse so why not take some risks?

 

 

 

 

 

It's great to think of bringing the CD back in this way, but the user's and Tip.It's rep, also have to be considered. I don't think Tip.It and I'm guessing, I'm not speaking for Tip.It has lost ambition to get the dead boards active again, its probably in the back of their heads, haunting them as they sleep, or do work. But something more important pops up. Bringing the CD boards back to alive, already sounds like tons of work, nothing Tip.It can't do, but I'm pretty sure Tip.It wants to get a lot of things done before they put the time and effort into bringing the dead boards back to live.

 

 

 

Tip it doesn't has that good reputation. Atleast not in the clans, the new members don't know it or are of the same opinion as the "older" members, that tip it was too severe and they all left because something happened in the past. (some guy made a post on Gladiatorz board that tip it looked for more people in CD and what I just said was their reaction).

 

 

 

About the work, just hire some new staff. I know it looks a lot of new people are hired lately, but if you want to grow in your user database you have to grow in the staff too.

[InkofDeath]

I'll go more into detail. The idea would be the next: Tip.it would give some people the oppurtunity to promote the Clan Discussion. There would be made a sort of post (where people who don't know tip.it or people who do but left for things in the past) which will have the content of what tip.it has to offer. Clan discussion is maybe dead, but the big advantage is that we can start from 0. And so we ask all the clans for their participation. It will take a while, but if many clans are interested they could bring in suggestions on a special board what they would like to see. That way we don't have to think out things people of the clans end up not to like.

 

So basically a campaign advertising the re-birth of CD?

 

 

 

I mean in the first place more people. If Corr posts their weekly/daily PK run in results, people will come look. People will discuss what they do. If DI, TRWF, The, EH, TR etc would do that too, more people will come & discuss. It would attract at first more users, and they will start posting kills in Graveyard, stake results etc.

 

Seem's good, yet Tip.It would need to re-instate some of the features that no longer are there, and some features to beat out RSC's features(these features are solely based on Clans).

[Gamerr]

Yep to the campaign.

[InkofDeath]

Yep to the campaign.

 

Might want to add onto that.

 

 

 

If Tip.It did all of this, which I have no idea, no Admin/Mod has posted, what would the campaign entitle? How would it work? What would be developed in it? How would it be executed? :-#

[Satenza]

If we have no interest from supermods/admins in the designated board for improving the clan boards what makes you think that suddenly posting something here is going to ressurect some interest. We have tried all summer gamerr, it isn't happening or at least not anytime soon. There is no commitment in the staff to make it happen, we had our chance when Cor came back, but thats gone and its over.

[Gamerr]

If we have no interest from supermods/admins in the designated board for improving the clan boards what makes you think that suddenly posting something here is going to ressurect some interest. We have tried all summer gamerr, it isn't happening or at least not anytime soon. There is no commitment in the staff to make it happen, we had our chance when Cor came back, but thats gone and its over.

 

 

 

I left for that reason the CIC. I don't blame the current staff members of lazyness, but I do blame them we have asked all summer for 2-3 people who have full time to get the CD boards back to active, and nothing happened.

 

 

 

I posted it here because I thought maybe if a lot of people would reply positivly, we could make things faster. Guess not.

[Albosky]

and just who were these 2 or 3 people?

 

 

 

Because I don't remember anyone asking me ANYTHING about Clan discussion/Pk forums all summer.

 

 

 

It seems the users are the ones who are complaining about the quality of those forums....but who exactly is it that posts in them and makes them so unattractive? it surely isn't me or the admins.....

[InkofDeath]

It seems the users are the ones who are complaining about the quality of those forums....but who exactly is it that posts in them and makes them so unattractive? it surely isn't me or the admins.....

 

The ones who used to post to make it attractive were cut out and left the forum, or so I presume from the posts of those who used to be active in there. Eventually no one would think of it worth the time to post in there, hence the unattractiveness begins, its not anyones fault. :-k

 

 

 

@Gamerr, I wasn't posting negatively, I was posting at my best on the idea constructively to see if the idea, or suggestion could actually hold up to what it would be up against if implemented.

[Gamerr]

and just who were these 2 or 3 people?

 

 

 

Because I don't remember anyone asking me ANYTHING about Clan discussion/Pk forums all summer.

 

 

 

It seems the users are the ones who are complaining about the quality of those forums....but who exactly is it that posts in them and makes them so unattractive? it surely isn't me or the admins.....

 

 

 

1. I'm sorry, my first post was a little unlucky. I mean't that in order to revive the clan discussion, we needed to do something that would attract RS players outside/from tip it to come and see and hopefully stay.

 

 

 

2. I know we can ask things to admins, but in the CIC board we posted our suggestions, and if a lot of people, even mods etc, agreed on a suggestion I may assume that they will tell it around to other staff members... And the 2-3 extra people (no names were given) was one of those ideas we had.

 

 

 

3. I only complain about CD. The rest of tip.it is ok. My previous posts were a bit unlucky, but the posts I wrote were meant to restyle tip it and hopefully attract new users who are interested in the new tip.it

 

 

 

 

 

@skate, I didn't mean you. I just see that there aren't much reactions -which I understand- but a lot of voices are needed to implent such changes.

[Albosky]

Well as you know, unfortunately I was not involved in the CIC discussions over the past few months.

 

 

 

The one problem I always incur in my role here at Tip.it is that I am not able to take on a specific "section" like some of the other administrators.

 

 

 

Between all the hardware and software issues , it just not plausible, its hard sometimes to even devote time to issues such as these.

 

 

 

 

 

If the members of CIC (including reinstating any who left) were to put their heads together, how long would it most likely take to get a full list of the "must be done" items together?

 

 

 

 

 

I will put my personal guarantee that it will be looked at within 48 hours of its completion and will also see to it that any that, are possible, and reasonable, are done, or negotiated.

 

 

 

 

 

As for actually "restyling Tip.it", my ears/eyes are always open for ideas and possibilities for new graphics or designs, show me some samples :)