Is God real post your thoughts!

[Lenticular_J]

... I didn't think it was that funny, to be honest. Sounded like something anybody who dislikes Christianity and knows only the most basic of the Bible could have written it. Would hardly call it "satire". Could probably take a quote from Jon Stewart if you wanted actual satire on religion ...

[tryto]

I guess you didn't like A Tale of a Tub then.

 

 

 

How is religion different than any closely held political or social thought? What makes religion a special, beautiful, unique snowflake?

 

 

 

You say that just because religion is the most closely held one, it cannot be attacked, but any other ones are not immune in this way? That's the most blatant case of special pleading I've seen in quite some time.

 

 

 

"To rectify even one of these 'mistakes' that this alleged piece of satire points out would disestablish all known religion for ever and for always."

 

 

 

One of the most closely held values of Nazism is racism. So therefore, satirizing racism is bad, because it would disestablish all known Nazism for ever and always.

 

 

 

One of the most closely held values of American civilization is the constitution. Therefore, satirizing the constitution is bad because it would disestablish all known american civilization for ever and for always.

 

 

 

Lighten up. This is a religion thread, debating the existence of your god. I'm sure that the existence of your god is a closely held belief, and if we rectified that, it would disestablish your religion. If you don't want to hear opposing viewpoints, even in the form of humour, I advocate staying out of these threads, or going to christianforums.com.

 

 

 

.. I didn't think it was that funny, to be honest. Sounded like something anybody who dislikes Christianity and knows only the most basic of the Bible could have written it. Would hardly call it "satire". Could probably take a quote from Jon Stewart if you wanted actual satire on religion ...

 

 

 

Not all that relevant...I pasted in a good one about grapes a while ago, but I agree with you. Mostly that I've heard it before. Anywho, not relevant to raven acting like he is.

 

 

 

 

"To rectify even one of these 'mistakes' that this alleged piece of satire points out would disestablish all known religion for ever and for always."

 

 

 

What a piece of pure sophistry. Why would you call it "alleged" when you've already admitted that it is, indeed, satire?

[Lenticular_J]

I just find it funny because he's overreacting but saying why, and everybody is jumping on him, when you get posts like this:

 

[bleep] that, I'm becoming an atheist now.

 

 

 

But I don't much care anywho. I've spoken my piece a fair bit back. And I've decided I don't really like this thread anymore. It turns into debates about other people debating upon someone's debate yadda yadda yadda. And I don't know what A Tale of a Tub is.

 

 

 

Plus, relevance. Hah. What a deflated term.

[1unahtreiloh]

IF God IS real, and we were created in its (God is not necessarily a man) image, it must have been flawed, as humans are flawed. If you look at it rationally, you can't create something if you don't have an idea of what it is. Therefore, for God to create the capacity for sinning, God itself must have sinned.

 

 

 

Also, god by the same extensions must be at least Bi-curious. Otherwise there would be nothing more than solely heterosexual people in the world. And BTW, it isn't a choice, so don't argue that.

[raven_gaurd0]

IF God IS real, and we were created in its (God is not necessarily a man) image, it must have been flawed, as humans are flawed. If you look at it rationally, you can't create something if you don't have an idea of what it is. Therefore, for God to create the capacity for sinning, God itself must have sinned.

 

 

 

Also, god by the same extensions must be at least Bi-curious. Otherwise there would be nothing more than solely heterosexual people in the world. And BTW, it isn't a choice, so don't argue that.

 

 

 

Go to the 'Homosexuality: Right or Wrong?' for info on both sides of it. And creation in the image of God implies not that we ARE sinless, but that we can BE sinless, like Mary. Human beings are also given the right to choice, or free choice, or whatever you want to call it, which enables us to sin.

 

 

 

God isn't rational. But there's a lot of things that aren't rational. I mean, look at waterbears. Microscopic organisms that can live - even thrive - for years out in the vacuum of space. That's not rational, but you know, we know it's true.

 

 

 

Harrumph. I agree with Lenticular, though. This thread doesn't offer much budge-room. I mean, you either do or you don't, as agnostics wouldn't care to debate either side, and those who do / don't are going to be cut-throat about it.

[dpattle]

And as a lil sidenote to raven, you can have KNOWLEDGE of something, without having actually done that thing. That was the whole difference with God and Adam when he was first created, and that's what the tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL did to them, they now knew both, and since they had choice could do whatever they wanted. He originally made us w/ choice but no knowledge of evil, ofcourse he gave Adam and Eve the choice to discover that knowledge and that's what started it all.

[warri0r45]

 

God isn't rational. But there's a lot of things that aren't rational. I mean, look at waterbears. Microscopic organisms that can live - even thrive - for years out in the vacuum of space. That's not rational, but you know, we know it's true.

 

 

 

Wow, never heard of them until now. What fascinating little critters.

 

 

 

Mind you, they don't thrive in space - they're metabolically stagnant. It's a survival mechanism called cryptobiosis and was originally used to survive prolonged dehydration, radiation and low temperatures - the perfect tools to survive the conditions of space. [1]

 

 

 

Also, water bears have been shown to survive in space for 10 days, not years. Interestingly, they couldn't withstand the extreme UV radiation from the sun, which isn't a surprise considering it's 1000 times stronger in space.[2]

 

 

 

There's nothing irrational here. Even if we didn't have an explanation for the ability of water bears to survive in space, that doesn't make it irrational, only unexplained. I don't even see how you could call nature irrational full stop. People are irrational, thoughts and ideas are irrational, but nature? Nature is just nature.

[raven_gaurd0]

 

God isn't rational. But there's a lot of things that aren't rational. I mean, look at waterbears. Microscopic organisms that can live - even thrive - for years out in the vacuum of space. That's not rational, but you know, we know it's true.

 

 

 

Wow, never heard of them until now. What fascinating little critters.

 

 

 

Mind you, they don't thrive in space - they're metabolically stagnant. It's a survival mechanism called cryptobiosis and was originally used to survive prolonged dehydration, radiation and low temperatures - the perfect tools to survive the conditions of space. [1]

 

 

 

Also, water bears have been shown to survive in space for 10 days, not years. Interestingly, they couldn't withstand the extreme UV radiation from the sun, which isn't a surprise considering it's 1000 times stronger in space.[2]

 

 

 

There's nothing irrational here. Even if we didn't have an explanation for the ability of water bears to survive in space, that doesn't make it irrational, only unexplained. I don't even see how you could call nature irrational full stop. People are irrational, thoughts and ideas are irrational, but nature? Nature is just nature.

 

 

 

Mmm. I thought it was longer than 10 days. And I suppose, then we can only define nature as rational and everything that doesn't abide by it, irrational.

[Blyaunte]

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

 

John:

 

"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

 

Mary:

 

"Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's butt with us."

 

Me:

 

"Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His butt?"

 

John:

 

"If you kiss Hank's butt, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the snot out of you."

 

Me:

 

"What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

 

John:

 

"Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His butt."

 

Me:

 

"That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

 

Mary:

 

"Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the butt?"

 

Me:

 

"Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

 

John:

 

"Then come kiss Hank's butt with us."

 

Me:

 

"Do you kiss Hank's butt often?"

 

Mary:

 

"Oh yes, all the time..."

 

Me:

 

"And has He given you a million dollars?"

 

John:

 

"Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

 

Me:

 

"So why don't you just leave town now?"

 

Mary:

 

"You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the snot out of you."

 

Me:

 

"Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's butt, left town, and got the million dollars?"

 

John:

 

"My mother kissed Hank's butt for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

 

Me:

 

"Haven't you talked to her since then?"

 

John:

 

"Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

 

Me:

 

"So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

 

Mary:

 

"Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

 

Me:

 

"What's that got to do with Hank?"

 

John:

 

"Hank has certain 'connections.'"

 

Me:

 

"I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

 

John:

 

"But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's butt He'll kick the snot out of you."

 

Me:

 

"Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

 

Mary:

 

"No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

 

Me:

 

"Then how do you kiss His butt?"

 

John:

 

"Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His butt. Other times we kiss Karl's butt, and he passes it on."

 

Me:

 

"Who's Karl?"

 

Mary:

 

"A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's butt. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

 

Me:

 

"And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His butt, and that Hank would reward you?"

 

John:

 

"Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

 

 

 

From the Desk of Karl:

 

 

 

1. Kiss Hank's butt and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.

 

2. Use alcohol in moderation.

 

3. Kick the snot out of people who aren't like you.

 

4. Eat right.

 

5. Hank dictated this list Himself.

 

6. The moon is made of green cheese.

 

7. Everything Hank says is right.

 

8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.

 

9. Don't use alcohol.

 

10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.

 

11. Kiss Hank's butt or He'll kick the snot out of you.

 

 

 

Me:

 

"This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

 

Mary:

 

"Hank didn't have any paper."

 

Me:

 

"I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

 

John:

 

"Of course, Hank dictated it."

 

Me:

 

"I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

 

Mary:

 

"Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

 

Me:

 

"I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the snot out of people just because they're different?"

 

Mary:

 

"It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

 

Me:

 

"How do you figure that?"

 

Mary:

 

"Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

 

Me:

 

"Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

 

John:

 

"No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

 

Me:

 

"But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

 

John:

 

"There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

 

Me:

 

"Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

 

Mary:

 

"But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

 

Me:

 

"I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

 

John:

 

"Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

 

Me:

 

"We do?"

 

Mary:

 

"Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

 

Me:

 

"You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

 

John:

 

"Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

 

Me:

 

"But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

 

Mary:

 

She blushes.

 

John:

 

"Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

 

Me:

 

"What if I don't have a bun?"

 

John:

 

"No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

 

Me:

 

"No relish? No Mustard?"

 

Mary:

 

She looks positively stricken.

 

John:

 

He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

 

Me:

 

"So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

 

Mary:

 

Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

 

John:

 

"That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

 

Me:

 

"It's good! I eat it all the time."

 

Mary:

 

She faints.

 

John:

 

He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's butt for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

 

 

 

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

 

 

 

I find that entire dialogue rather offensive. No, we do not 'Kiss His butt' nor do we have contradictory Commandments. Nor is it written anywhere in religious scripture that God deems that you must kill other people unlike you; not even the Qu'ran dictates that.

 

 

 

I shall not sink to your level and insult you, but I find it hard when this is such a blatant and obvious assault on us 'religious types'. Any good Christian knows that laughing at atheists or 'non-believers' for their choices is NOT Christian.

 

 

 

Humans are just as likely to succumb to sin and immorality as ever. We're not God. This, however, makes all religious people seem like arrogant, crumby bastards. I've never heard worse ignorant crap, not even listening to Rush Limbaugh. Not even reading Mein Kaumpf.

 

 

 

Bite thin tongue, hypocrite. 'Live and let live' has always been the motto of most the atheists I've ever met, and then they turn around and attack us and insist that we're being bigots because of Who we believe in, then they come up with gross mis-analogies that don't fit at all. Well, I'm getting sick of it.

 

 

 

Wow -- SOMEONE needs to unhook from the Matrix already ... :

 

 

 

Ya know, the point behind the "Kissing Hank's [wagon]" commentary, is to demonstrate just how silly religion appears to the non-religious.

 

 

 

If it offends you, perhaps you should cut off thy nose, despite your face?

 

 

 

:^o

[Lateralus]

If it offends you, perhaps you should cut off thy nose, despite your face?

 

 

 

:^o

 

 

 

To spite your face.

[Zierro]

There's nothing irrational here. Even if we didn't have an explanation for the ability of water bears to survive in space, that doesn't make it irrational, only unexplained. I don't even see how you could call nature irrational full stop. People are irrational, thoughts and ideas are irrational, but nature? Nature is just nature.

 

 

 

I agree, but I think it would only be fair to say that the nature of god should be defined as unexplained instead of irrational too.

[Lenticular_J]

Ya know, the point behind the "Kissing Hank's [wagon]" commentary, is to demonstrate just how silly religion appears to the non-religious.

 

We get it.

[raven_gaurd0]

Ya know, the point behind the "Kissing Hank's [wagon]" commentary, is to demonstrate just how silly religion appears to the non-religious.

 

We get it.

 

 

 

At the same time, I think that atheism seems silly to me, not being held to a higher power being judgement in the afterlife, but I get heavily criticized whenever I bring up that point.

[warri0r45]

There's nothing irrational here. Even if we didn't have an explanation for the ability of water bears to survive in space, that doesn't make it irrational, only unexplained. I don't even see how you could call nature irrational full stop. People are irrational, thoughts and ideas are irrational, but nature? Nature is just nature.

 

 

 

I agree, but I think it would only be fair to say that the nature of god should be defined as unexplained instead of irrational too.

 

 

 

That depends on whether it's claimed that he has properties that are illogical and contradictory or not. As I said, beliefs can be irrational. If they don't make some coherent sense, I'm going to dismiss them as such.

 

 

 

Ya know, the point behind the "Kissing Hank's [wagon]" commentary, is to demonstrate just how silly religion appears to the non-religious.

 

We get it.

 

 

 

At the same time, I think that atheism seems silly to me, not being held to a higher power being judgement in the afterlife, but I get heavily criticized whenever I bring up that point.

 

 

 

Then argue back. Stand up for yourself. If people start getting personal then you can write them of as juveniles who can't hold up an argument without name calling. If you don't want to argue back then leave the thread and get on with your life.

[purewcnub]

The truth is that I know very much about God and the bible. God created people to be perfect. They WERE perfect, but Satan corrupted mankind. I don't care what you say, you have your beliefs, I have mine. Leave it at that.

[Zierro]

The truth is that I know very much about God and the bible. God created people to be perfect. They WERE perfect, but Satan corrupted mankind. I don't care what you say, you have your beliefs, I have mine. Leave it at that.

 

 

 

But if God is the creator of all, that means he created Satan and created the potential for humankind to be 'corrupted'.

[dpattle]

The truth is that I know very much about God and the bible. God created people to be perfect. They WERE perfect, but Satan corrupted mankind. I don't care what you say, you have your beliefs, I have mine. Leave it at that.

 

 

 

But if God is the creator of all, that means he created Satan and created the potential for humankind to be 'corrupted'.

 

 

 

Yeah technically, but only because he gave choice. And satan chose to war with God, get thrown out, and then eventually corrupt humankind.

[Zierro]

There is evidence for evolution and natural selection, but you believe that an illogical higher power created everything?

 

 

 

:wall:

 

 

 

We learned about Darwin and his ideas for like a month, then the school board pulled the plug to keep super christian parents from whining.

 

 

 

:wall:

 

 

 

Everything means everything. Flowers, roller coasters, hot dogs, and evolution all fall under the category of "everything".

[mmmcannibalism]

The truth is that I know very much about God and the bible. God created people to be perfect. They WERE perfect, but Satan corrupted mankind. I don't care what you say, you have your beliefs, I have mine. Leave it at that.

 

 

 

But if God is the creator of all, that means he created Satan and created the potential for humankind to be 'corrupted'.

 

 

 

Yeah technically, but only because he gave choice. And satan chose to war with God, get thrown out, and then eventually corrupt humankind.

 

 

 

why didnt god kill satan then? He made the earth hoping humans would be perfect, so why not allow us free will and just destroy any angels that go renegade? Assuming genesis is accurate for the sake of argument, is it not fair to say humanity would have never sinned had god not let the devil live?

[Lenticular_J]

Then argue back. Stand up for yourself. If people start getting personal then you can write them of as juveniles who can't hold up an argument without name calling. If you don't want to argue back then leave the thread and get on with your life.

 

Mmm, impossible for this to NOT be personal by the topic's very nature. Arguing doesn't do anything. I believe you've called plenty of idiots out on their just being idiots. Doesn't mean we don't want to argue. (Well, I kinda don't.)

[dpattle]

There is evidence for evolution and natural selection, but you believe that an illogical higher power created everything?

 

 

 

:wall:

 

 

 

We learned about Darwin and his ideas for like a month, then the school board pulled the plug to keep super christian parents from whining.

 

 

 

:wall:

 

 

 

It seems illogical to you, just as evolution seems illogical to me. Point blank is you have to have an amazingly high understanding of both to call either illogical; and even then, it's still only your opinion.

 

 

 

The way i see it, most people are:

 

a) not familiar with christianity, but very familiar with evolution

 

B) not familiar with evolution, but very familiar with christianity

 

c) somewhere in between the two.

 

 

 

But noone so far seems to me to know both aspects and sides, my one friend that did, God rest his soul, believed that both went hand in hand, and could show many different aspects where both science and religion went together, bringing up real points and whatnot.

 

 

 

Also, i know i don't know alot about evolution/BBT, but i try, and i do however know alot about the bible and Christianity. Atleast i think i do, for my age anywayz, but you can always learn something new, even from a book many have studied for thousands of years.

[Zierro]

So you're saying that God could have created a single Amoeba, and then gotten credit after the chain reactions resulted in humanity?

 

 

 

Brilliant. :wall: :wall:

 

 

 

Those chain reactions fall under the category of everything as well.

[dpattle]

The truth is that I know very much about God and the bible. God created people to be perfect. They WERE perfect, but Satan corrupted mankind. I don't care what you say, you have your beliefs, I have mine. Leave it at that.

 

 

 

But if God is the creator of all, that means he created Satan and created the potential for humankind to be 'corrupted'.

 

 

 

Yeah technically, but only because he gave choice. And satan chose to war with God, get thrown out, and then eventually corrupt humankind.

 

 

 

why didnt god kill satan then? He made the earth hoping humans would be perfect, so why not allow us free will and just destroy any angels that go renegade? Assuming genesis is accurate for the sake of argument, is it not fair to say humanity would have never sinned had god not let the devil live?

 

 

 

No it's not, because humans would still have free will, and with that, someone would most likely have still sinned.. And the devil was originally an angel just serving his punishment, it's like life in prison after being a billionaire, compared to the death penalty. Life is actually worse. It was a punishment, and God says he will eventually kill satan.

[warri0r45]

Then argue back. Stand up for yourself. If people start getting personal then you can write them of as juveniles who can't hold up an argument without name calling. If you don't want to argue back then leave the thread and get on with your life.

 

Mmm, impossible for this to NOT be personal by the topic's very nature. Arguing doesn't do anything. I believe you've called plenty of idiots out on their just being idiots. Doesn't mean we don't want to argue. (Well, I kinda don't.)

 

 

 

You might know my opinion on this by now. If you're so personally entwined with your beliefs that any criticism of them is taken as a personal insult then you need to harden up or go to another forum. Or go to a church where everyone will agree with you and treat religious ideas as sacrosanct. People can't expect to come to the internet of all places and have their beliefs treated as they think they should be treated. This is the place more than any other where beliefs are truly open to be questioned, chewed up and spit out. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

 

 

You can call atheism anything you want, I really don't care. I'll argue back if need be or ignore comments I think are flippant. Why can't religious people feel the same way? This is an internet forum for Christ's sake. These are words. If you let words get to you so much then you need to grow up.

[warri0r45]

Also, i know i don't know alot about evolution/BBT, but i try, and i do however know alot about the bible and Christianity. Atleast i think i do, for my age anywayz, but you can always learn something new, even from a book many have studied for thousands of years.

 

 

 

I'll make you a deal. Instead of pointless arguing, let's try for a bit of education. I'll give you one good educational source on evolution if you do the same for me, but about Christianity.

 

 

 

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/