Is God real post your thoughts!

[Shinjula]

Fadooda - but what your neglecting to tell us is what this message means?

 

Ok sure lets assume for a moment that god did send a message to these people, why these ones? why the virgin mary? whats the point of it?

 

After all he doesnt send messages that often so its probably something important, whats the meaning?

 

 

 

And if you cant get a useful meaning out of his message doesnt that imply something, after all hes god he clearly capable of making himself understood.

 

 

 

Since the message doesnt have any particular mean it really does imply this is not a message from god.

[Zierro]

Fadooda - but what your neglecting to tell us is what this message means?

 

Ok sure lets assume for a moment that god did send a message to these people, why these ones? why the virgin mary? whats the point of it?

 

After all he doesnt send messages that often so its probably something important, whats the meaning?

 

 

 

And if you cant get a useful meaning out of his message doesnt that imply something, after all hes god he clearly capable of making himself understood.

 

 

 

Since the message doesnt have any particular mean it really does imply this is not a message from god.

 

 

 

Maybe the purpose of the message is to send controversy to earth.

[Lenticular_J]

I can see God getting a kick outta that.

 

 

 

It's nice to think of God as the Family Guy version.

[Lateralus]

Fadooda - but what your neglecting to tell us is what this message means?

 

Ok sure lets assume for a moment that god did send a message to these people, why these ones? why the virgin mary? whats the point of it?

 

After all he doesnt send messages that often so its probably something important, whats the meaning?

 

 

 

And if you cant get a useful meaning out of his message doesnt that imply something, after all hes god he clearly capable of making himself understood.

 

 

 

Since the message doesnt have any particular mean it really does imply this is not a message from god.

 

 

 

Maybe the purpose of the message is to send controversy to earth.

 

 

 

Typical speculative religious thinking. I'm pretty sure you're just making a suggestion and that it's probably not your own opinion, but that kind of thinking really gets my back up.

[Lenticular_J]

But what is religion (Speaking belief, not the traditions) but speculation to afterlife?

[Lateralus]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, since that's the same kind of thinking which annoys me. Inventing an explanation or reason for the sake of having one doesn't make any sense to me.

[Lenticular_J]

As far as I see it, that's the only reason for science, religion, or even deep thinking. At the base of it all, we want an explanation for the sake of having one.

[Lateralus]

Inventing was the key word in the sentence, as in fabricating. Knowledge for the sake of knowledge is to be encouraged, of course.

[Zierro]

Calm down, it's nothing more than a hypothesis. I'm not trying to point out how I think things work around here (because honestly, I have no clue) - I'm just talking about the possibilities. The theory of the big bang and evolution started off as speculations. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to give that sort of credit to my hypothesis but I don't see it as something that would totally surprise me. What harm does speculation cause? I mean are there any better ideas of why you think God would send that message?

[Lateralus]

Calm down, it's nothing more than a hypothesis. I'm not trying to point out how I think things work around here (because honestly, I have no clue) - I'm just talking about the possibilities. The theory of the big bang and evolution started off as speculations. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to give that sort of credit to my hypothesis but I don't see it as something that would totally surprise me. What harm does speculation cause? I mean are there any better ideas of why you think God would send that message?

 

 

 

People live and die by religious speculation and revelation when they assign too much value to it, and it retards proper inquiry. I would not call it harmless.

 

 

 

Any hypothesis like this is useless because it will never be verified. I won't answer your last question because it wasn't your specific answer that I was being critical of, it was that people would suggest any answer without any real support for it.

 

 

 

(Yes I evaded the censor, but I don't think it's a problem here. Obviously a mod can change it if they must.)

[Zierro]

People live and die by religious speculation and revelation when they assign too much value to it, and it [developmentally delayed] proper inquiry. I would not call it harmless.

 

 

 

Yes, there are cases where bad things happen when people assign to much value to their unsupported beliefs - but I'm not doing that. In fact, I never even said that's what I believed. Just that it's a possibility.

 

 

 

Any hypothesis like this is useless because it will never be verified. I won't answer your last question because it wasn't your specific answer that I was being critical of, it was that people would suggest any answer without any real support for it.

 

 

 

Useless? Who's to say it wasn't for a bit of fun? Or thought provocation? Like I said, I'm not trying to crack any codes or anything or else I would have some support to what I said. I see no harm in suggesting possibilities. And if I am wrong, I don't see what the problem is. We will all still wake up and live life normally. I don't see it being unverifiable as a problem either. We can't verify whether we're living in a matrix or not but yet the idea is fun and thought provoking.

 

 

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I think the fact that there are no other good reasons for God to send us those messages can be considered support.

[Lateralus]

People live and die by religious speculation and revelation when they assign too much value to it, and it [developmentally delayed] proper inquiry. I would not call it harmless.

 

 

 

Yes, there are cases where bad things happen when people assign to much value to their unsupported beliefs - but I'm not doing that. In fact, I never even said that's what I believed. Just that it's a possibility.

 

 

 

You have to understand that I'm not being critical of you personally. I said in the first post that I didn't think it was your opinion. I think ridiculous for someone to say that an apparition is proof of the existence of a god and then go on to put any kind of faith (for want of a better word) in their interpretation of why it's there.

 

 

 

Any hypothesis like this is useless because it will never be verified. I won't answer your last question because it wasn't your specific answer that I was being critical of, it was that people would suggest any answer without any real support for it.

 

 

 

Useless? Who's to say it wasn't for a bit of fun? Or thought provocation? Like I said, I'm not trying to crack any codes or anything or else I would have some support to what I said. I see no harm in suggesting possibilities. And if I am wrong, I don't see what the problem is. I will still wake up and live life normally. I make hypotheses because I don't fear being corrected. I don't see it being unverifiable as a problem either. We can't verify whether we're living in a matrix or not but yet the idea is fun and thought provoking.

 

 

 

Actually, now that I think about it, I think the fact that there are no other good reasons for God to send us those messages can be considered support.

 

 

 

Again, I wasn't taking a shot at you personally.

 

 

 

Unverifiability is a problem when people take these things seriously. To your matrix example - What if someone lived their life (tried to live their life? I'm not sure what they would do) as if they did live in a matrix just because it was possible? That aside, solipsism bores me.

 

 

 

Why is causing controversy a 'good reason'? Without knowing anything about the mind of god there's an infinite number of equally implausible explanations for why he would send an apparition. Perhaps it was a dare, or a bet.

[Zierro]

You have to understand that I'm not being critical of you personally. I said in the first post that I didn't think it was your opinion. I think ridiculous for someone to say that an apparition is proof of the existence of a god and then go on to put any kind of faith (for want of a better word) in their interpretation of why it's there.

 

 

 

I know, I just don't see anything wrong with that suggestion. Oh and I don't think the images are evidence that God exists. I see sand, clouds, and smoke that look like different things all the time. My point was if God did send that message, what would it's purpose be?:

 

 

 

Ok sure lets assume for a moment that god did send a message to these people, why these ones? why the virgin mary? whats the point of it?

 

After all he doesnt send messages that often so its probably something important, whats the meaning?

 

 

 

---

 

 

 

Unverifiability is a problem when people take these things seriously. To your matrix example - What if someone lived their life (tried to live their life? I'm not sure what they would do) as if they did live in a matrix just because it was possible? That aside, solipsism bores me.

 

 

 

I'm not the type to take things seriously unless there is support though. When making speculations, I think the sky's the limit but when you are acting on them then that's when evidence is a must. Also, that's weird because I think that's one of the most intriguing subjects out there.

 

 

 

Why is causing controversy a 'good reason'? Without knowing anything about the mind of god there's an infinite number of equally implausible explanations for why he would send an apparition. Perhaps it was a dare, or a bet.

 

 

 

Maybe he wanted us to have this discussion. 8-) That's true though - none of us will ever be able to fathom God's ways but that's not to say it is harmful to try.

[Chained_life]

I'm struggling with my faith in god at the moment. My faith in god was brought on by a family who treated me as their own when I was alone as a child.

 

 

 

Him being real? Well as a believer I believe yes, he is. I also believe without religion this world would have gone to hell A LONG TIME AGO. *Sometimes* I think that religion was brought into this world to keep people in order, because without it why is there a reason to do good? Morality and common courtesy stems from religion. Think about it, what if there was no god, Everyone had the mindset that you just die and nothing happens, no hell, so no consequences, no heaven, so no reason to do good. You may be an atheist, but I bet someone in your family tree WAY BACK WHEN taught the morality and common courtesy that's in you today. It also may explain why today there is so little respect an common courtesy for fellow man, more and more people are grown up with no god. I see this forum, lots of atheist kids who are either just saying that out of immaturity or really mean it. It seems this world has been going to hell since the 60s.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't bother with atheists though, tired of their "we know it all" attitude. I just ignore it, I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe.

[warri0r45]

I'm struggling with my faith in god at the moment. My faith in god was brought on by a family who treated me as their own when I was alone as a child.

 

 

 

Him being real? Well as a believer I believe yes, he is. I also believe without religion this world would have gone to hell A LONG TIME AGO. *Sometimes* I think that religion was brought into this world to keep people in order, because without it why is there a reason to do good? Morality and common courtesy stems from religion. Think about it, what if there was no god, Everyone had the mindset that you just die and nothing happens, no hell, so no consequences, no heaven, so no reason to do good. You may be an atheist, but I bet someone in your family tree WAY BACK WHEN taught the morality and common courtesy that's in you today.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't bother with atheists though, tired of their "we know it all" attitude. I just ignore it, I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe.

 

 

 

Perhaps morality stems from biology. If you think about it, the human species works much more effectively as a unit than if we were all alone fighting for ourselves (and against each other). As a result, natural selection favours behaviours conducive to social cooperation, etc. Saying that without god or religion we'd all just immediately stop being social animals is a gross inaccuracy in my opinion. Even as a non-religious person, I fear the consequences of my actions, both from the law and from my fellow man (being disowned by family and friends, etc).

 

 

 

Besides, if you look at some of the most religion-poor nations on earth (some Scandinavian countries, for example), they're still very much intact and prospering.

[Zierro]

Even as a non-religious person, I fear the consequences of my actions, both from the law and from my fellow man (being disowned by family and friends, etc).

 

 

 

What if you knew for sure you wouldn't get caught doing something bad? Let's say... stealing a bike you wanted really bad. Would you steal that bike if you didn't have to fear those consequences that you mentioned about being directly punished by other human beings or is there something more to it?

[warri0r45]

Even as a non-religious person, I fear the consequences of my actions, both from the law and from my fellow man (being disowned by family and friends, etc).

 

 

 

What if you knew for sure you wouldn't get caught doing something bad? Let's say... stealing a bike you wanted really bad. Would you steal that bike if you didn't have to fear those consequences that you mentioned about being directly punished by other human beings or is there something more to it?

 

 

 

I don't think I would do it. For some people it may be that easy, but largely I think that fear of consequences is more than something you can just consciously switch off. I'm no psychologist, but perhaps that barrier is a mild form of what we would later call paranoia.

[user1991]

I'm struggling with my faith in god at the moment. My faith in god was brought on by a family who treated me as their own when I was alone as a child.

 

 

 

Him being real? Well as a believer I believe yes, he is. I also believe without religion this world would have gone to hell A LONG TIME AGO. Where do you get this from..? Millions of people have been killed in the name of religion. Morality doesn't come from religion (even if you think it does.) Sure, some of the first laws may have been based on religious ideas but what about all the BAD things that were justified with it? Slavery, mass murder, genocide, etc etc. Religion does good but don't try and claim that good stems from religion. It really doesn't. *Sometimes* I think that religion was brought into this world to keep people in order, because without it why is there a reason to do good? There is plenty reason to "do good." If your fear of God is all that holds you back from murdering and raping then you are even worse than the so called "atheist kids" you rant about. "Religion was brought into this world to keep people in order" What do you mean? By God? Or by man? If the latter is what you're saying, then I would agree. Religion has been a tool of control for centuries.Morality and common courtesy stems from religion. No. Think about it, what if there was no god, Everyone had the mindset that you just die and nothing happens, no hell, so no consequences, no heaven, so no reason to do good. Or, if you have one life you should make the most of it? Sure, you can say that Hitler and Stalin were atheists, but that is irrelevant. As Sam Harris says, these regimes are not examples of reason run a muck. The crusades however... Again, if "God" is all that holds you back from doing atrocious things, you are even worse than the people you complain about. Some people do good because they are genuinely concerned for other people. Not because they want to go to heaven. Your reasoning is absolutely ridiculous. How do you like it when I say things like "Christians are evil. Without God they would all be killing babies and raping eachother."? You don't like it do you? Obviously this isn't the case, but at least now you know what it feels like to have your worldview (and to be honest, it isn't even anything more than a lack of belief in God.) completely thrown out of proportion? Cut that [cabbage] out. You may be an atheist, but I bet someone in your family tree WAY BACK WHEN taught the morality and common courtesy that's in you today. It also may explain why today there is so little respect an common courtesy for fellow man, more and more people are grown up with no god Oh yes, obviously the problems in the world are due to godlessness. I mean, all the slavery, racism, genocide of the past few centuries, yeh, we can totally just ignore all of that. I wonder how much "evil" has been done in the name of religion? The crusades, the inquisition, various child molestation cover ups, justification of slavery, justification of anti-miscegenation laws.. But, obviously we should discard all of this, and focus on the, in comparison, relatively minor problems of today. And even if you just look at today, look at Israel and Palestine ffs. Yes, obviously due to atheism. First of all, where are you getting this "so little respect and common courtesy for fellow man" bs from? And even if that was true, CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION. . I see this forum, lots of atheist kids who are either just saying that out of immaturity or really mean it. "Atheist kids." Note his condescending tone, how he looks down upon us as his inferiors. It seems this world has been going to hell since the 60s. Okay this is just [bleep]ing stupid.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't bother with atheists though, tired of their "we know it all" attitude. WHAT THE?!! Listen to me carefully. We do NOT know the answers. We do NOT know everything about our existence. I'll admit that, we don't know. Yet you, you're the ones with all the answers. You have your book, and you think you know it all. You know where we came from, you know where we're going to go. You know our past and our future and you know the INNER WORKINGS OF A DEITY'S "MIND". You know what every single person should be doing, and you know how they should do it. You want to subject your will onto the people under the guise of it being the will of God. Who are the "know it alls" here? I just ignore it, I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe. Deal. But, one condition. You can't make any religious laws, and you can't take away peoples' rights, not just for religious reasons, but at all.

[Lenticular_J]

Wanting to get rid of things being done for religions reasons is the same as getting rid of things being done for art; religion is its own little part of life, but it is closer to art than science. Or maybe in between. I don't know. True, you're grumpy in the mornings. Evil's done in the name of greed and want of individual, evil, people.

 

 

 

I hate how varied personal beliefs are. It makes for a tough "debate".

[Zierro]

I don't think I would do it. For some people it may be that easy, but largely I think that fear of consequences is more than something you can just consciously switch off. I'm no psychologist, but perhaps that barrier is a mild form of what we would later call paranoia.

 

 

 

Hmm, well if I was absolutely sure I wouldn't get caught (or better yet - I wasn't afraid of the consequences to begin with), I wouldn't steal it either. There's something more telling me not to do it other than social consequences. Empathy? Making the world a better place? I don't know what it is, but I think there is something else.

[Andy]

No, god is not real.

 

It is as simple as that.

[tryto]

Ever notice that when people see apparitions, they're pretty much always the stereotypical Caucasian Americanized notions of the figures?

 

 

 

There's no physical description of Jesus in the bible other than "He is very ordinary".

 

Remember, he would have been a Mediterranean Jew, so would have had darkish skin and not looked at all like the typically Norwegian Caucasian you see so much of. The same goes for Mary.

 

 

 

These "sightings" and "miracles" are always like this, and it's so laughably incorrect as well. It's definitely not a coincidence that these sightings are always of the pre-conceived images concocted by the media and the culture the viewer is living in.

 

 

 

 

 

Here's an article and a picture of what Jesus would have likely looked like had he existed.

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... 82186.html

 

[kehllz]

Ever notice that when people see apparitions, they're pretty much always the stereotypical Caucasian Americanized notions of the figures?

 

 

 

There's no physical description of Jesus in the bible other than "He is very ordinary".

 

Remember, he would have been a Mediterranean Jew, so would have had darkish skin and not looked at all like the typically Norwegian Caucasian you see so much of. The same goes for Mary.

 

 

 

These "sightings" and "miracles" are always like this, and it's so laughably incorrect as well. It's definitely not a coincidence that these sightings are always of the pre-conceived images concocted by the media and the culture the viewer is living in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm religious but I don't really believe in the whole apparition bit, but if God is all powerful, wouldn't it be possible for him to present to the viewer what they perceive Jesus and Mary as rather than what they truly are. Or if you take the crazy/environment-induced idea, of course they would see the Jesus/Mary as they've been presented, the Caucasoide type rather than the Mediterranean version, since they're creating the image.

[warri0r45]

Ever notice that when people see apparitions, they're pretty much always the stereotypical Caucasian Americanized notions of the figures?

 

 

 

There's no physical description of Jesus in the bible other than "He is very ordinary".

 

Remember, he would have been a Mediterranean Jew, so would have had darkish skin and not looked at all like the typically Norwegian Caucasian you see so much of. The same goes for Mary.

 

 

 

These "sightings" and "miracles" are always like this, and it's so laughably incorrect as well. It's definitely not a coincidence that these sightings are always of the pre-conceived images concocted by the media and the culture the viewer is living in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a Catholic but I don't really believe in the whole apparition bit, but if God is all powerful, wouldn't it be possible for him to present to the viewer what they perceive Jesus and Mary as rather than what they truly are. Or if you take the crazy/environment-induced idea, of course they would see the Jesus/Mary as they've been presented, the Caucasoide type rather than the Mediterranean version, since they're creating the image.

 

 

 

Of course, you can use "if god is all powerful" as a scapegoat for any crazy explanation, but It doesn't make it any less crazy. There's absolutely no sense in god sending apparitions only to appease cultural references which everyone grew up with. If he was the real deal, he'd send a culture neutral apparition to everyone, i.e. the true one. If he isn't doing that, then it's probably just people imagining things/over-hyping natural occurrences.

[kehllz]

There's absolutely no sense in god sending apparitions only to appease cultural references which everyone grew up with. If he was the real deal, he'd send a culture neutral apparition to everyone, i.e. the true one. If he isn't doing that, then it's probably just people imagining things/over-hyping natural occurrences.

 

 

 

First, if the images are real, he's not sending them to appease any social images, he's just using the image held in a persons mind to reinforce the fact that it really is God visiting them. He could also appear as a burning bush, a bright light, or a purple hippopatamus for all that matters. If a person thought Jesus was a purple hippo, God would present himself to them as a purple hippo.

 

 

 

Plus, why would God send an image to everyone? If everyone receives an image then he proves his existence, which is kinda what he doesn't want.

 

 

 

The whole reason that our God image is of a white God is because we are a white society. In Africa, there are instances of dark-skinned Marys and Jesuses (awkward plurals), in Asian countries, of Asian forms of them, so on and so forth. That was both a missionary tactic (Look, he's like you, worship him) and just an assimilation change that the culture forced on the religion.