Is God real post your thoughts!

[venomai]

Is there much of a benefit for not believing? And I'm talking about the believing - not acting on the beliefs.

 

As we've already discussed, our actions are inevitably influenced by our beliefs.

 

 

 

The term "god" is indeed very general, and describes no single belief in particular. But when we debate "his" existence, we generally refer to the notion of an "intelligent creator" that is worshipped and can physically interact with our universe.

 

 

 

Nonbelief is the default position regarding any unknown entity -- I do not need to show you how "benefitial" it is to not believe in Russell's Teapot. With that said, there are many benefits to nonbelief (depending on your definition of god). Most importantly; blind faith is removed.

 

 

 

Let's say he does exist. How can a human provide evidence for the existence of a being who we can't see or even understand? Whether he exists or not, you still won't be getting your evidence, so why ask for it?

 

If the universe we live in was created and/or influenced by a higher, intelligent being, as theists claim, there would be evidence to suggest his existence.

 

 

 

How can we provide evidence for dark matter if we cannot observe it, let alone understand it? By observing influences in the physical world.

[Zierro]

As we've already discussed, our actions are inevitably influenced by our beliefs.

 

 

 

If you're talking about how people refuse to go to the hospital because they believe God would save them if that's what his intentions were, then you're right. People shouldn't be doing that. However, if I were to believe God, does that automatically mean my lifestyle would change for the worst? I don't think so. It's nothing more than having something at the back of your mind. In fact I think an atheist and a theist can have almost the same exact lifestyles.

 

 

 

Nonbelief is the default position regarding any unknown entity -- I do not need to show you how "benefitial" it is to not believe in Russell's Teapot. With that said, there are many benefits to nonbelief (depending on your definition of god). Most importantly; blind faith is removed.

 

 

 

I don't see why we should look at the benefits of our beliefs at all. Our actions are what we should be looking at when it comes to benefits - not the actual belief.

 

 

 

If the universe we live in was created and/or influenced by a higher, intelligent being, as theists claim, there would be evidence to suggest his existence.

 

 

 

How can we provide evidence for dark matter if we cannot observe it, let alone understand it? By observing influences in the physical world.

 

 

 

There would be? Please enlighten me. What sorts of influences are you looking for? God to cleanse the world of evil?

[mmmcannibalism]

[hide=]

Skepticism is the most reasonable response to such a claim, and it certainly is not a scapegoat. Rather than evading the issue, it demands further details to support it.

 

 

 

As many atheists in this thread have come to realize, asking for evidence is indeed useless; theists simply can not provide it.

 

 

 

How can a human provide evidence for the existence of a being who we can't see or even understand?

 

Why would we even pray to and believe in such a being if we don't even know what it is, what it does, what it wants and if it's even real?

[/hide]

 

 

 

believing=/=praying to ( I recognize that Johnny Appleseed exists and clearly I dont worship him). Also, I dont really pray Im just generally thankful to the universe for treating me well at times, and I generally credit the universe to some divine being. I dont believe every single lucky thing that happens to me is by some divine being, but some times stuff just happens and Im like hmm that was unlikely, I wonder... Now, that doesnt mean I care if its a god or just dumb luck but I dont think my belief has been anything but beneficial.

[Zierro]

believing=/=praying to ( I recognize that Johnny Appleseed exists and clearly I dont worship him). Also, I dont really pray Im just generally thankful to the universe for treating me well at times, and I generally credit the universe to some divine being. I dont believe every single lucky thing that happens to me is by some divine being, but some times stuff just happens and Im like hmm that was unlikely, I wonder... Now, that doesnt mean I care if its a god or just dumb luck but I dont think my belief has been anything but beneficial.

 

 

 

Exactly. Call it a coincidence but I think it's odd how my anti-God years were the most depressing and since I've turned my head back to God again, good things have been happening to me ever since.

[Shinjula]

Nonbelief is the default position regarding any unknown entity -- I do not need to show you how "benefitial" it is to not believe in Russell's Teapot. With that said, there are many benefits to nonbelief (depending on your definition of god). Most importantly; blind faith is removed.

I don't see why we should look at the benefits of our beliefs at all. Our actions are what we should be looking at when it comes to benefits - not the actual belief.

I think the problem with your responses Zierro, is that you are being so defensive that you arent seeing that many of these questions are opportunities to explain and mostly your responses have been flippant answers, which is why people are turned off by them.

 

For example you got asked...

Why would we even pray to and believe in such a being if we don't even know what it is, what it does, what it wants and if it's even real?

and all your response was, was

You're setting me up for this one... Why not?

 

No, I don't actually hold that view but when you are going to ask a question like that then you're going to get an answer like that.

You missed an excellent opportunity to explain a little about how you see yourself and your religion and how it works for you because you were too busy going for the quickest and simplest defence available. And this is the sort of stuff atheists see all the time. Religious people rarely show any enthusiasm (except in often the most innappropriate way with the evalangelicals) for their own religion so all athiests take away from these debates is hard headedness and quick flippancy. Why not go for it, and talk about how prayer makes you feel, what it does for you to have closeness to a higher power infusing your life. If you religion is worth anything to you (which I assume it must be) why not share some of that worth instead of constantly going for the cheap shots.

 

 

 

Incidentally this also completely applies to the athiests as well, who never seem to talk about the freedoms they get from atheism, the feeling of security from not having to take things on faith or the freedom from heaven and hell.

[venomai]

However, if I were to believe God, does that automatically mean my lifestyle would change for the worst? I don't think so.

 

It depends on your conception of god. The belief that god (rather than natural selection) created the Earth and its inhabitants may not change your entire lifestyle for the worst, but it certainly can create a negative influence on your actions and ideologies (i.e. generally counterproductive, restricting, etc).

 

 

 

I don't see why we should look at the benefits of our beliefs at all. Our actions are what we should be looking at when it comes to benefits - not the actual belief.

 

You argued earlier that a belief in god is justified because there are "good reasons" behind it. Now you're saying that these benefits and "good reasons" are not really that important? :lol:

 

 

 

There would be? Please enlighten me. What sorts of influences are you looking for?

 

Take young-Earth creationism, for example, which would have left behind clear evidence (i.e. the Earth being young). Although finding such evidence may not "prove god exists," it certainly would help support the claims of many theists.

 

 

 

Call it a coincidence but I think it's odd how my anti-God years were the most depressing and since I've turned my head back to God again, good things have been happening to me ever since.

 

A healthy level of spiritualism can often be a great thing. :thumbup:

 

 

 

Incidentally this also completely applies to the athiests as well, who never seem to talk about the freedoms they get from atheism, the feeling of security from not having to take things on faith or the freedom from heaven and hell.

 

In some ways I consider myself a spiritual atheist. My disbelief in the notion of a "monarch of the universe" (god) has given me a great deal of freedom in reconsidering aspects of the afterlife, reincarnation, spirit guides, deep meditation, shamanism, etc. [With that said, I do not blindly believe in any of these notions.]

[Zierro]

Incidentally this also completely applies to the athiests as well, who never seem to talk about the freedoms they get from atheism, the feeling of security from not having to take things on faith or the freedom from heaven and hell.

 

 

 

You disagree with my responses and then you almost do the same thing that I was trying to do? I agree that atheists can have their views but when they try to make a theist's view sound unjustified or that it's the same as believing the toothfairy, then I'm going to play on the defense.

 

 

 

PS: I like how you skipped over the main point in that example. You didn't mention the part where I said, "I'm not an expert on gravity but I still believe it."

 

 

 

It depends on your conception of god. The belief that god (rather than natural selection) created the Earth and its inhabitants may not change your entire lifestyle for the worst, but it certainly can create a negative influence on your actions and ideologies (i.e. generally counterproductive, restricting, etc).

 

 

 

And atheism certainly can make you depressed and feel insignificant. Like I said before, an atheist and a theist can live pretty much the same life. It just depends on the person. As for me, my lifestyle changed for the worst while I was an atheist and has gotten better since I went back to agnosticism.

 

 

 

You argued earlier that a belief in god is justified because there are "good reasons" behind it. Now you're saying that these benefits and "good reasons" are not really that important?

 

 

 

Benefits =/= Good reasons. By good reasons, I meant it is justifiable to hold those beliefs. Not beneficial.

 

 

 

A healthy level of spiritualism can often be a great thing.

 

 

 

You argued earlier that there are no benefits... Not saying that it's the reason why I believe, but you claimed there were none. I don't believe for the benefits though. I'm just saying the fact that my life has shaped up because I started being open-minded about God again is what justifies my beliefs.

 

 

 

Take young-Earth creationism, for example, which would have left behind clear evidence (i.e. the Earth being young). Although finding such evidence may not "prove god exists," it certainly would help support the claims of many theists.

 

 

 

That does not tell me that God doesn't influence the universe. It only shows he didn't influence it in that specific instance. Again, you're only bringing up specific religions.

[mmmcannibalism]

In some ways I consider myself a spiritual atheist. My disbelief in the notion of a "monarch of the universe" (god) has given me a great deal of freedom in reconsidering aspects of the afterlife, reincarnation, spirit guides, deep meditation, shamanism, etc. [With that said, I do not blindly believe in any of these notions.]

 

 

 

Not sure if this is an over personal question, but whats your opinion on the afterlife? Just wondering because Im starting to think we have very similair belief systems that have a seperate god, I coudl be quite wrong though lol.

[venomai]

Not sure if this is an over personal question, but whats your opinion on the afterlife? Just wondering because Im starting to think we have very similair belief systems that have a seperate god, I coudl be quite wrong though lol.

 

I see death as a beautifully peaceful end to our biological life. I look forward to my death, but I obviously wish to avoid it long enough to ensure a full and joyful life.

 

 

 

I would be pretty content with "the void" after death; simply ceasing to feel and think. I'd imagine it would feel like a dreamless sleep.

 

 

 

I've also entertained the idea of "life after death," mainly because of the more recent research into near-death experiences[1] and reincarnation[2]. By this understanding, the afterlife is not some sort of Heaven/Hell system, but merely a continuation of consciousness. Although these fields are still new, and the evidence certainly is not conclusive, it was enough get me thinking about it.

 

 

 

At the moment, I don't really have a preference of one over the other. They both sound pretty good to me.

 

 

 

You argued earlier that there are no benefits...

 

There aren't many benefits to having a fixed belief in "god" as per the traditional definition. It must be understood that when I debate "god's existence," although the term is indeed very broad, I am not attempting to beat down all conceptions of god.

 

 

 

Again, you're only bringing up specific religions.

 

I can't possibly cover them all in a single example. :lol:

 

 

 

The conception of god brought about by organized religion is really the only conception of god I care to argue against. I see little point in arguing whether there exists an "unknown, unobservable, unintelligent and inanimate entity" that some people label "god."

[Zierro]

The conception of god brought about by organized religion is really the only conception of god I care to argue against. I see little point in arguing whether there exists an "unknown, unobservable, unintelligent and inanimate entity" that some people label "god."

 

 

 

If God did exist, I really wouldn't expect him to be anything like what religions claim. The idea of a being who is the mind-work behind the way the universe is - that's what I'm arguing for.

[Lenticular_J]

Maybe God is like infinity. We can't understand it. But people still think they do.

 

 

 

 

Welcome c:

 

 

 

What did you mean?

 

That's about what I feel.

 

 

 

Didn't think it deserved yet another post, you know how it is.

[magekillr]

 

Welcome c:

 

 

 

What did you mean?

[i_love_burritos]

I honestly don't know.

 

 

 

Here is a clever quote which I made up to show you how clever ad intelligent I am. :^o

 

 

 

God's best creation is Man (and woman !)

 

Man's best creation is God.

[soulglowactivatur]

I don't want to be flammed about this, but I'm a devoted christian and I love God with all my heart.

 

For me, it was a personal choice. It wasn't forced upon me by my parents or anything, I chose to follow God myself. Why do I do it? Because I truly believe that there is much more than just this life. I believe in an eternal "after-life" in heaven and I feel that the possibility of ending up in hell is something too big to just ignore.

 

Christianity is believing and having a relationship with God/Jesus Christ. You can't just prove that God exists, no one can.

 

That's why it's called faith.

[mmmcannibalism]

Not going to flame because its just impolite but

 

 

 

old testament

 

 

 

eye for eye tooth for tooth

 

 

 

new testament

 

 

 

turn the other cheek

 

 

 

=contradiction

[Lenticular_J]

...OLD.

 

 

 

...NEW.

 

 

 

At least choose a contradiction that isn't caused by the fact that they're two completely different things. They shouldn't even really have the same names - they're totally dissimilar.

[Ouchy]

First time I have posted here, lol.

 

 

 

Honestly, I think that god is just a fragment of people's imagination. I am yet to see any hard prove that he does exist at all. Sure people can believe him in, and look at him for guidance, but he isn't really there. He is as real as the easter bunny, really.

[Lenticular_J]

I think you would enjoy a fruit I like to call the FIG.

 

 

 

...Figment of imagination. FIGMENT.

 

 

 

So, you're comparing the majority of the world's strongest belief to a marketing ploy/random children's story, eh?

[NoMoreDead]

I believe in an eternal "after-life" in heaven and I feel that the possibility of ending up in hell is something too big to just ignore.

 

 

 

What about the possibility that you're wasting the only life you get worrying about what an imaginary man thinks of you?

[dpattle]

Not going to flame because its just impolite but

 

 

 

old testament

 

 

 

eye for eye tooth for tooth

 

 

 

new testament

 

 

 

turn the other cheek

 

 

 

=contradiction

 

 

 

OH hell no, i just happened to see this thread..idk how i miised this in the first place!

 

First of all, there is no contradiction in the bible...PERIOD. see, in the old testament, if you bothered to read at all, two verses before, it explains (http://bible.cc/exodus/21-22.htm) that if men are "struggling" with each other and hurt a pregnant woman, and she has complications with her birth, then and only then do the next two verses matter. It says if she loses the child, then the man/mens life/lives should be taken to repay the lost life. and if the child can still be born, but is born with any sort of deformity, then what ever is missing/messed up shall be taken from the man that caused the complication. ie if the child is missing an eye, then the mans eye shall also be taken out. simple as that. luckily, though the US govt can EASILY do that, they'd rather jail time.

 

 

 

Whereass in the new testament, it is simply talking about if someone does any sin unto you, you should turn the other cheek instead of retaliating. just like now, it is expected that you let the authorities and government deal with that.

 

 

 

Simple, and easy peasy. dont get things mixed up and try to twist the bibles words. If you dont believe in god, thats your problem. Hell, if you feel we actually developed from monkeys, and some huge explosion made this world in the first place(destruction bringing about creation, thats the real contradiction) then be my guest.

 

 

 

and lastly, god did infact give us freedom of choice, along with many other freedoms, after all, most the ones in the constitution were taken from the bible. Some people decide to infact torture others, and that is there choice, the government should protect us. At least back in biblical times, people knew if they killed someone, that was the end of their life too(kept them in check for the most part) Im not saying no1 murdered in that time, just that it cant be compared to now, with the type of government we now have...but hey, they do try to do their best, and thats really all you can ask. Just that when rulers were in touch with God, and didnt just make their own rules, things were better.

 

 

 

I believe God does infact exist, After all, the bible is the oldest book that we still have in today's time, anyone wondering why? lolz \

[i_love_burritos]

I believe God does infact exist, After all, the bible is the oldest book that we still have in today's time, anyone wondering why? lolz

 

 

 

Wrong.

 

 

 

Not trying to bring down christianity. BUT.

 

bible was written over a period of 1800 years, with fragments of over 40 different people.

 

Corrupted,twisted,wayward from its orignal form.

 

 

 

The Torah (first five books, of moses are the oldest, oldest being around 1400 BC.)

 

 

 

Now for instance, Vedas are at least 3000 older than the oldest scriptures of Christianity and Judaism.

 

 

 

EDIT: Rig veda are at least from 5000BC, makign them 7000 years old.

[Lenticular_J]

I believe in an eternal "after-life" in heaven and I feel that the possibility of ending up in hell is something too big to just ignore.

 

 

 

What about the possibility that you're wasting the only life you get worrying about what an imaginary man thinks of you?

 

Acting like a good person ain't gonna hurt you in this life or, as I believe, the next. I don't know where the concept that every person who believes in a(n) God(s) or afterlife has to be insane and sitting in a dark room for fear of God's wrath came from, but it's about 12% incorrect...

[soulglowactivatur]

I believe in an eternal "after-life" in heaven and I feel that the possibility of ending up in hell is something too big to just ignore.

 

 

 

What about the possibility that you're wasting the only life you get worrying about what an imaginary man thinks of you?

 

Acting like a good person ain't gonna hurt you in this life or, as I believe, the next. I don't know where the concept that every person who believes in a(n) God(s) or afterlife has to be insane and sitting in a dark room for fear of God's wrath came from, but it's about 12% incorrect...

 

Exactly, what do I have to lose?

 

And I'm not "worrying" about what God thinks of me, it's not like I'm trying impress him.

[tryto]

First of all, there is no contradiction in the bible...PERIOD.

 

 

 

 

 

If that's true, you should have absolutely no problem completing fully Dan Barker's Easter Challenge.

 

http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/stone.php

 

 

 

 

 

"The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened. Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture--it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all of the facts. Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough?"

[Zierro]

I believe in an eternal "after-life" in heaven and I feel that the possibility of ending up in hell is something too big to just ignore.

 

 

 

What about the possibility that you're wasting the only life you get worrying about what an imaginary man thinks of you?

 

 

 

How would that be wasting anything? Besides, you brought up possibilities which speaks for itself. There is a possibility that you could be the wrong one and that you're "wasting" your only life being an atheist.