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Another regarding this childish hatred of religion by people who just wish to feel superior, also regarding the language of religion which, out of necessity, contradicts itself: Your friend gets up at 4 am every morning to go fishing. You ask him why. He says he enjoys fishing. You don't love fishing, not enough to dedicate so much time to it, but you understand and respect his love of fishing. One time, curious, you ask him just what appeals to him so much about fishing - what makes it so great. He ponders awhile, until he replies: "Fishing is fishing." This statement makes absolutely no damn sense, and yet you can probably understand what he means.

 

This one doesn't hold much meat besides for the fact that people care about religion.

 

 

Fishing is a hobby, and not one that would make you anywhere near a bigot, a homophobe, a chauvinist, a racist...

To make sure no one misunderstands this, I'm not saying all religous are, I'm saying religion brought some people to be 1 or more of the above.

 

I must say I do agree with Lent, and also you don't have huge masses believing in unicorns, which must count for something.

 

I don't think it matters. The truth is the truth whether no one believes in it, and whether everyone does.

 

Saying that religion is believeable because of the amount of people following it, is like saying I shouldn't question it because no one else does.

The fact that many believe, is not a ground for the truthfulness of the matter.

 

Romy, that statement is bizarre. The people who follow the Bible that are racist, homophobic, chauvinistic, etc. CHOOSE to be racist, homophobic and chauvinistic, the Bible doesn't make them do it.

You have to admit the Bible encourages it, especially chauvinism and homophobia.

You also have to admit we'd have less chauvinist, homophobic, racist, etc. people, without the Bible.

Ofcourse, there are homophobic(/chauvinist/racist) atheists too, and there are religous people who are not, but the stats show the average of each group is more inclined to go one way.

Also, you cannot choose to be any of those, it's not that simple. Just like you cannot choose you likes and dislikes, you cannot choose to like cheese cake, you cannot choose to be homophobic.

 

Wow. And what I mean to say, is you should question your beliefs, but what I'm implying is that if there are 5 billion people who believe in a Christian god for example, compare that to the 4 people who believe in Unicorns... There's gotta be evidence for God, for that many people to follow.

No, because there's no "point" in believing in unicorns. Unicorns don't explain the unexplainable (such as why we're here, how we got here, where we're going to, etc), and a God does.

I see religion as comfort. It explains what we cannot understand, it hands over some guidelines, it gives meaning to life, etc. That's why there are so many believers, not necessarily because there's "evidence".

 

While a lot of Christians are gullible mindless followers, a lot more atheists are as well, then they would like to admit.

I wouldn't got for "a lot more", especially since there are less atheists than Christians to begin with.

 

 

Atheists tend to believe they copy wrote intelligence, logic, "truth," etc when in reality it shows how foolish most are.

Not to be petty, but atheists are statistically more educated and smarter.

Ofcourse, that does not mean all atheists are smart, and neither does it mean that being religous makes you dumb.

 

And at your fishing comment, its an analogy, people compare baking a cake to putting together a house, sure you're both times building something, but you can't eat a house, and you can't sleep in the average sized cake. It's an analogy, I repeat.

Yes, it is an analogy. What I was pointing out is that this analogy only stands for fishing as a hobby, or even a way of life, rather than fishing as dictating morals and encourging bigottry.

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Probably not, but it's possible. I'm not terribly interested in his/her existence. Chances are if he/she is real, he/she doesn't really give a [cabbage] or is off in some other part of the universe. However, when religious Jesus Freaks affect the lives of others, that's when I get involved. Christian fundamentalists and their obsession with fetuses and gays, Zionist fundamentalist Jews/Christians who use the Bible to justify their occupation, Muslim fundamentalists with the recent Muhammad spat and Sharia Law; I'd rather they all just drop their religion and keep it to themselves.

 

I think religion can be helpful at times in our society. The driving force behind MLK's advocacy was his religion. I think it can serve a purpose in our society, especially when I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon.

 

Global warming ISN'T a problem, the air is made up of about 0.03% of co2 so all this crap about recylcling every little thing and do everything to reduce the amount of co2 you produce is total crap. Think about the hypocrisy aswell there flying around in private jets with a few people on board all over the world all the time, couldn't they just go business class?

 

Global warming isn't a problem, huh? Your basis for saying that is...what, exactly? Your hatred of science? The dislike of having to possibly give up some of your overindulging lifestyle? Or maybe it's Jesus:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7h08RDYA5E

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Another regarding this childish hatred of religion by people who just wish to feel superior, also regarding the language of religion which, out of necessity, contradicts itself: Your friend gets up at 4 am every morning to go fishing. You ask him why. He says he enjoys fishing. You don't love fishing, not enough to dedicate so much time to it, but you understand and respect his love of fishing. One time, curious, you ask him just what appeals to him so much about fishing - what makes it so great. He ponders awhile, until he replies: "Fishing is fishing." This statement makes absolutely no damn sense, and yet you can probably understand what he means.

 

This one doesn't hold much meat besides for the fact that people care about religion.

 

 

Fishing is a hobby, and not one that would make you anywhere near a bigot, a homophobe, a chauvinist, a racist...

To make sure no one misunderstands this, I'm not saying all religous are, I'm saying religion brought some people to be 1 or more of the above.

 

I must say I do agree with Lent, and also you don't have huge masses believing in unicorns, which must count for something.

 

I don't think it matters. The truth is the truth whether no one believes in it, and whether everyone does.

 

Saying that religion is believeable because of the amount of people following it, is like saying I shouldn't question it because no one else does.

The fact that many believe, is not a ground for the truthfulness of the matter.

 

Romy, that statement is bizarre. The people who follow the Bible that are racist, homophobic, chauvinistic, etc. CHOOSE to be racist, homophobic and chauvinistic, the Bible doesn't make them do it.

You have to admit the Bible encourages it, especially chauvinism and homophobia.

You also have to admit we'd have less chauvinist, homophobic, racist, etc. people, without the Bible.

Ofcourse, there are homophobic(/chauvinist/racist) atheists too, and there are religous people who are not, but the stats show the average of each group is more inclined to go one way.

Also, you cannot choose to be any of those, it's not that simple. Just like you cannot choose you likes and dislikes, you cannot choose to like cheese cake, you cannot choose to be homophobic.

 

Wow. And what I mean to say, is you should question your beliefs, but what I'm implying is that if there are 5 billion people who believe in a Christian god for example, compare that to the 4 people who believe in Unicorns... There's gotta be evidence for God, for that many people to follow.

No, because there's no "point" in believing in unicorns. Unicorns don't explain the unexplainable (such as why we're here, how we got here, where we're going to, etc), and a God does.

I see religion as comfort. It explains what we cannot understand, it hands over some guidelines, it gives meaning to life, etc. That's why there are so many believers, not necessarily because there's "evidence".

 

While a lot of Christians are gullible mindless followers, a lot more atheists are as well, then they would like to admit.

I wouldn't got for "a lot more", especially since there are less atheists than Christians to begin with.

 

 

Atheists tend to believe they copy wrote intelligence, logic, "truth," etc when in reality it shows how foolish most are.

Not to be petty, but atheists are statistically more educated and smarter.

Ofcourse, that does not mean all atheists are smart, and neither does it mean that being religous makes you dumb.

 

And at your fishing comment, its an analogy, people compare baking a cake to putting together a house, sure you're both times building something, but you can't eat a house, and you can't sleep in the average sized cake. It's an analogy, I repeat.

Yes, it is an analogy. What I was pointing out is that this analogy only stands for fishing as a hobby, or even a way of life, rather than fishing as dictating morals and encourging bigottry.

 

1)

Here's what I think in all honesty Romy:

The Bible does not encourage the thoughts of homophobia, but it was the law, back then in Israel, guys couldn't have sex with guys, because Israel was a small as redneck country in the boonies, they needed people. HOWEVER (and this is why I said it doesn't support homophobia) the chapter of Ruth, is a about a LESBIAN that God loved, very much, I mean she got her own book in the Bible. People proved this, because in the original language, the word (I think its this word) "clung" (as in past tense "to cling") when used with a person ex: she clung to her" it means romantically, and sexually needing. And the word is commonly used when describing men and women's sex lives in the Bible. However, after Ruth's husband died she "clung" to her lady friend and lived with her for all of her days. To the Chauvinism comment, while I do admit the Bible suggests it, meh I don't know XD you're right I guess... But it's more about chauvinism in the church, Men are supposed to be Church leaders, not Women. On the other hand it is said in many times, women should obey and submit themselves to their husbands, AND husbands should submit, love, obey, and PROTECT their wives. However, men tend to leave off that 2nd part when preaching because it's more convenient.

 

 

2) I completely understand when you say we use God to fill in the unexplainable, it's completely true. However, the argument lies in whether or not this fills the unexplainable, or simply coats with it a sugary warm feeling. I am honestly not surprised when people call me an illogical fool, I believe a guy in the sky who no one's ever seen, created the entire universe in 6 days, and all his miracles can be explained by natural causes. But I think it's the way you look at it in all honesty, to the miracle section, you can say that the physical proof of miracles is proof that God works within nature's laws, or you could say people were confused by the events, so said God did them. But really, I'm surprised anyone has ever been converted to Christianity, because it does seem very far fetched... But it's true, and I can't explain why. And thats why I don't debate it on the intern-..... :wall:

 

3)There may be more intelligent Atheists, I wasn't saying there weren't, simply stating there can be Christians who ARE smarter than Atheists, and are not dilusioned old fools. I just find it odd, how a lot of people in this world (on both sides of the god debate) complain about the world being close minded, bigoted etc, but never examine their own beliefs. Many Christians never question god, examine their beliefs, because in the Bible God said "let he be blessed who believes but does not see" (as in doesn't question their faith) but thats just ridiculous. I did question my faith, I looked up evolution, Islam, everything ( I even looked up Zoroastrianism to see if it held validity) and nothing seemed right, except Christianity. Atheism just seemed too empty, and too contradictory in that Christians use God to fill in the void with faith, while Atheists put there faith in science, hoping it would one day be full. And I bring in Pascals wager, only briefly, I'd rather go to Sunday like once every two months (basically how often my family goes, I've had pretty bad church experiences) and forgo a tiny bit of... well.. earthly pleasure, and when I die, I'll go to heaven. If God doesn't exist, and I just Dissapear, I'll at least have been a good person.

 

4)I see your point, but I guess I see both sides of the analogy. I.e. (if I may say so) your interpretation is the product, the goal. Mine, is the process. The guy doesn't understand why he does it, why. Not how many fish he kills, or or coffee cups he drinks to stay awake.

 

*also Romy, I'm not sure if you took it this way, but in the post you quoted, I wasn't flaming you, but I can see that it could come off that way.*


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Another regarding this childish hatred of religion by people who just wish to feel superior, also regarding the language of religion which, out of necessity, contradicts itself: Your friend gets up at 4 am every morning to go fishing. You ask him why. He says he enjoys fishing. You don't love fishing, not enough to dedicate so much time to it, but you understand and respect his love of fishing. One time, curious, you ask him just what appeals to him so much about fishing - what makes it so great. He ponders awhile, until he replies: "Fishing is fishing." This statement makes absolutely no damn sense, and yet you can probably understand what he means.

 

This one doesn't hold much meat besides for the fact that people care about religion.

 

 

Fishing is a hobby, and not one that would make you anywhere near a bigot, a homophobe, a chauvinist, a racist...

To make sure no one misunderstands this, I'm not saying all religous are, I'm saying religion brought some people to be 1 or more of the above.

 

I must say I do agree with Lent, and also you don't have huge masses believing in unicorns, which must count for something.

 

I don't think it matters. The truth is the truth whether no one believes in it, and whether everyone does.

 

Saying that religion is believeable because of the amount of people following it, is like saying I shouldn't question it because no one else does.

The fact that many believe, is not a ground for the truthfulness of the matter.

 

Romy, that statement is bizarre. The people who follow the Bible that are racist, homophobic, chauvinistic, etc. CHOOSE to be racist, homophobic and chauvinistic, the Bible doesn't make them do it.

1. You have to admit the Bible encourages it, especially chauvinism and homophobia.

You also have to admit we'd have less chauvinist, homophobic, racist, etc. people, without the Bible.

Ofcourse, there are homophobic(/chauvinist/racist) atheists too, and there are religous people who are not, but the stats show the average of each group is more inclined to go one way.

Also, you cannot choose to be any of those, it's not that simple. Just like you cannot choose you likes and dislikes, you cannot choose to like cheese cake, you cannot choose to be homophobic.

 

Wow. And what I mean to say, is you should question your beliefs, but what I'm implying is that if there are 5 billion people who believe in a Christian god for example, compare that to the 4 people who believe in Unicorns... There's gotta be evidence for God, for that many people to follow.

2. No, because there's no "point" in believing in unicorns. Unicorns don't explain the unexplainable (such as why we're here, how we got here, where we're going to, etc), and a God does.

I see religion as comfort. It explains what we cannot understand, it hands over some guidelines, it gives meaning to life, etc. That's why there are so many believers, not necessarily because there's "evidence".

 

While a lot of Christians are gullible mindless followers, a lot more atheists are as well, then they would like to admit.

3. I wouldn't got for "a lot more", especially since there are less atheists than Christians to begin with.

 

 

Atheists tend to believe they copy wrote intelligence, logic, "truth," etc when in reality it shows how foolish most are.

4. Not to be petty, but atheists are statistically more educated and smarter.

Ofcourse, that does not mean all atheists are smart, and neither does it mean that being religous makes you dumb.

 

And at your fishing comment, its an analogy, people compare baking a cake to putting together a house, sure you're both times building something, but you can't eat a house, and you can't sleep in the average sized cake. It's an analogy, I repeat.

Yes, it is an analogy. What I was pointing out is that this analogy only stands for fishing as a hobby, or even a way of life, rather than fishing as dictating morals and encourging bigottry.

1. You say the Bible instigates bigotry against several groups. I would have to disagree. One of the most well known Jesus quotes "love your enemy". Jesus is considered the final prophet and completes the word of God so His commands finalize all instructions of God. He also says not to judge least you're judged 7 x 7 times (which is emphatic language to mean a lot). Now there might be people like the WBC who distort the Bible and spread messages of hate, but the WBC are also denounced by every church who I have heard give a statement on them. The Catholic Church doesn't even acknowledge them as a church.

 

2. God does not explain why we are here, the physical processes of how we were created, etc. as those can all be scientifically explained. The existence of God deals with the study of the interior disposition and our international unity. And religion does not explain the unexplainable because every single confirmation, the bishop of my diocese always says the same cliche when he explains all this unexplainable stuff which fundamentalist religion says the Bible answers and he goes so now do you understand it? Usually everyone says yes and he goes good, cuz I don't and than rants on and on about how we can't and will not.

 

3. I think he means percentage. And there are a lot of gullible and stupid atheists. I have no statistic that compares the religiously education measurement to atheist, but I know of many atheist who are so because it is "cool" and the like. I'm not saying many atheists are like this, I just know of this type. Gullible and submissive has little to do with religious or atheistic affiliation more with personal inclination.

 

4. I simply disagree with that. That's your own baseless feeling of superiority.


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4. I simply disagree with that. That's your own baseless feeling of superiority.

 

How can you "simply disagree" with something that's pretty well documented and proven?

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4. I simply disagree with that. That's your own baseless feeling of superiority.

 

How can you "simply disagree" with something that's pretty well documented and proven?

Because of how similar it is to the ideas of social darwinism? Remember the 19th-20th century where apparently it was sound scientific thought that said that white people were intellectually superior?

 

Or perhaps how intelligence is more tied to social and economic status than religious belief? How would they go about proving it anyway?

 

Feel free to prove me wrong, though. I just think this is a group of atheists trying to make themselves feel better by misusing science.

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Ask yourself this.

(...)

These are all things that we cannot disprove the existence of, however the inability to disprove their existence does not provide any reason to believe that they exist.

What you said is absolutely correct, but is hardly ever relevant when discussing things like beliefs, faith, values, morals etc. As has been said, they can't be proven, but that doesn't mean they can't exist. This gets us nowhere.

 

It's one of those ideas that are inherently unscientific because there is no way to test and prove it. And that really should only matter if you're the kind of person that thinks only scientific, provable ideas have any value (Which as a right brained fan of psychology and art, I'm not :lol:).

I'd say no one is that kind of person; everyone believes some things without proof, it is only reasonable to do so.

 

But who are we to try to change the way people see the world?

Nothing wrong in it, is there? Unless they clearly say "no, I don't want to hear what you have to say, go away".

 

I completely understand when you say we use God to fill in the unexplainable, it's completely true. However, the argument lies in whether or not this fills the unexplainable, or simply coats with it a sugary warm feeling. I am honestly not surprised when people call me an illogical fool,

(...)

But really, I'm surprised anyone has ever been converted to Christianity, because it does seem very far fetched... But it's true, and I can't explain why. And thats why I don't debate it on the intern-..... :wall:

Awesome :thumbsup:

 

Atheism just seemed too empty, and too contradictory in that Christians use God to fill in the void with faith, while Atheists put there faith in science, hoping it would one day be full.

If you can't fill the void, you gotta learn to live with it. Which understandably may be hard sometimes.

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Another regarding this childish hatred of religion by people who just wish to feel superior, also regarding the language of religion which, out of necessity, contradicts itself: Your friend gets up at 4 am every morning to go fishing. You ask him why. He says he enjoys fishing. You don't love fishing, not enough to dedicate so much time to it, but you understand and respect his love of fishing. One time, curious, you ask him just what appeals to him so much about fishing - what makes it so great. He ponders awhile, until he replies: "Fishing is fishing." This statement makes absolutely no damn sense, and yet you can probably understand what he means.

 

This one doesn't hold much meat besides for the fact that people care about religion.

 

 

Fishing is a hobby, and not one that would make you anywhere near a bigot, a homophobe, a chauvinist, a racist...

To make sure no one misunderstands this, I'm not saying all religous are, I'm saying religion brought some people to be 1 or more of the above.

 

I must say I do agree with Lent, and also you don't have huge masses believing in unicorns, which must count for something.

 

I don't think it matters. The truth is the truth whether no one believes in it, and whether everyone does.

 

Saying that religion is believeable because of the amount of people following it, is like saying I shouldn't question it because no one else does.

The fact that many believe, is not a ground for the truthfulness of the matter.

 

Romy, that statement is bizarre. The people who follow the Bible that are racist, homophobic, chauvinistic, etc. CHOOSE to be racist, homophobic and chauvinistic, the Bible doesn't make them do it.

You have to admit the Bible encourages it, especially chauvinism and homophobia.

You also have to admit we'd have less chauvinist, homophobic, racist, etc. people, without the Bible.

Ofcourse, there are homophobic(/chauvinist/racist) atheists too, and there are religous people who are not, but the stats show the average of each group is more inclined to go one way.

Also, you cannot choose to be any of those, it's not that simple. Just like you cannot choose you likes and dislikes, you cannot choose to like cheese cake, you cannot choose to be homophobic.

 

Wow. And what I mean to say, is you should question your beliefs, but what I'm implying is that if there are 5 billion people who believe in a Christian god for example, compare that to the 4 people who believe in Unicorns... There's gotta be evidence for God, for that many people to follow.

No, because there's no "point" in believing in unicorns. Unicorns don't explain the unexplainable (such as why we're here, how we got here, where we're going to, etc), and a God does.

I see religion as comfort. It explains what we cannot understand, it hands over some guidelines, it gives meaning to life, etc. That's why there are so many believers, not necessarily because there's "evidence".

 

While a lot of Christians are gullible mindless followers, a lot more atheists are as well, then they would like to admit.

I wouldn't got for "a lot more", especially since there are less atheists than Christians to begin with.

 

 

Atheists tend to believe they copy wrote intelligence, logic, "truth," etc when in reality it shows how foolish most are.

Not to be petty, but atheists are statistically more educated and smarter.

Ofcourse, that does not mean all atheists are smart, and neither does it mean that being religous makes you dumb.

 

And at your fishing comment, its an analogy, people compare baking a cake to putting together a house, sure you're both times building something, but you can't eat a house, and you can't sleep in the average sized cake. It's an analogy, I repeat.

Yes, it is an analogy. What I was pointing out is that this analogy only stands for fishing as a hobby, or even a way of life, rather than fishing as dictating morals and encourging bigottry.

 

1)

Here's what I think in all honesty Romy:

The Bible does not encourage the thoughts of homophobia, but it was the law, back then in Israel, guys couldn't have sex with guys, because Israel was a small as redneck country in the boonies, they needed people. HOWEVER (and this is why I said it doesn't support homophobia) the chapter of Ruth, is a about a LESBIAN that God loved, very much, I mean she got her own book in the Bible. People proved this, because in the original language, the word (I think its this word) "clung" (as in past tense "to cling") when used with a person ex: she clung to her" it means romantically, and sexually needing. And the word is commonly used when describing men and women's sex lives in the Bible. However, after Ruth's husband died she "clung" to her lady friend and lived with her for all of her days. To the Chauvinism comment, while I do admit the Bible suggests it, meh I don't know XD you're right I guess... But it's more about chauvinism in the church, Men are supposed to be Church leaders, not Women. On the other hand it is said in many times, women should obey and submit themselves to their husbands, AND husbands should submit, love, obey, and PROTECT their wives. However, men tend to leave off that 2nd part when preaching because it's more convenient.

 

 

2) I completely understand when you say we use God to fill in the unexplainable, it's completely true. However, the argument lies in whether or not this fills the unexplainable, or simply coats with it a sugary warm feeling. I am honestly not surprised when people call me an illogical fool, I believe a guy in the sky who no one's ever seen, created the entire universe in 6 days, and all his miracles can be explained by natural causes. But I think it's the way you look at it in all honesty, to the miracle section, you can say that the physical proof of miracles is proof that God works within nature's laws, or you could say people were confused by the events, so said God did them. But really, I'm surprised anyone has ever been converted to Christianity, because it does seem very far fetched... But it's true, and I can't explain why. And thats why I don't debate it on the intern-..... :wall:

 

3)There may be more intelligent Atheists, I wasn't saying there weren't, simply stating there can be Christians who ARE smarter than Atheists, and are not dilusioned old fools. I just find it odd, how a lot of people in this world (on both sides of the god debate) complain about the world being close minded, bigoted etc, but never examine their own beliefs. Many Christians never question god, examine their beliefs, because in the Bible God said "let he be blessed who believes but does not see" (as in doesn't question their faith) but thats just ridiculous. I did question my faith, I looked up evolution, Islam, everything ( I even looked up Zoroastrianism to see if it held validity) and nothing seemed right, except Christianity. Atheism just seemed too empty, and too contradictory in that Christians use God to fill in the void with faith, while Atheists put there faith in science, hoping it would one day be full. And I bring in Pascals wager, only briefly, I'd rather go to Sunday like once every two months (basically how often my family goes, I've had pretty bad church experiences) and forgo a tiny bit of... well.. earthly pleasure, and when I die, I'll go to heaven. If God doesn't exist, and I just Dissapear, I'll at least have been a good person.

 

4)I see your point, but I guess I see both sides of the analogy. I.e. (if I may say so) your interpretation is the product, the goal. Mine, is the process. The guy doesn't understand why he does it, why. Not how many fish he kills, or or coffee cups he drinks to stay awake.

 

*also Romy, I'm not sure if you took it this way, but in the post you quoted, I wasn't flaming you, but I can see that it could come off that way.*

[/hide]

 

1. I don't know about lesbians, but I'm certain the Bible encourages hatred towards male gays. I'd cite it, but I don't have a Bible in English.

If it's really needed, I could probably find one somewhere on the net though.

 

2. Lol at your joke :).

Anyway, God fills a gap that currently cannot be filled otherwise. Whether it is a "warm feeling" as you describe it, or actual "understanding" of the matter, that's what it does.

 

3. "There may be more intelligent Atheists, I wasn't saying there weren't, simply stating there can be Christians who ARE smarter than Atheists, and are not dilusioned old fools. "

I was very careful at avoiding these misunderstandings. I said it myself- being a part of either group does not make you smarter or dumber. You just said that there are many more dumb atheists, and I was pointing to a statistic that shows the average Joe at each group is more likely to be this or that.

 

"while Atheists put there faith in science"

Atheism is not a religion. Unlike religions (and sub religions) you cannot classify them as a group believing in anything. Personally, I believe (for a lack of better word) that science is valid enough to be taken as the most serious form of gained knowledge. Was science ever wrong? Yes, certainly. Is it possible that certain things are considered right by sceince, although in reality they're actually wrong? Yep.

I'm skeptic, I don't take it for granted. I do take it as "more probable" though.

 

"and when I die, I'll go to heaven."

According to Christianity, perhaps. But too many other religions see you as doomed already. If we take each religion and give it the same odds at being "the right one", then this whole world is a lot more likely to go to hell (or receive some other form of punishment), than go to heaven.

 

"I'll at least have been a good person."

Out of curiousity, do you think that, if you became an atheist in the future, you'd be a bad person? Or less of a better person?

 

 

4) M'kay :P.

 

*Nope, didn't take anything as flaming :).

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Another regarding this childish hatred of religion by people who just wish to feel superior, also regarding the language of religion which, out of necessity, contradicts itself: Your friend gets up at 4 am every morning to go fishing. You ask him why. He says he enjoys fishing. You don't love fishing, not enough to dedicate so much time to it, but you understand and respect his love of fishing. One time, curious, you ask him just what appeals to him so much about fishing - what makes it so great. He ponders awhile, until he replies: "Fishing is fishing." This statement makes absolutely no damn sense, and yet you can probably understand what he means.

 

This one doesn't hold much meat besides for the fact that people care about religion.

 

 

Fishing is a hobby, and not one that would make you anywhere near a bigot, a homophobe, a chauvinist, a racist...

To make sure no one misunderstands this, I'm not saying all religous are, I'm saying religion brought some people to be 1 or more of the above.

 

I must say I do agree with Lent, and also you don't have huge masses believing in unicorns, which must count for something.

 

I don't think it matters. The truth is the truth whether no one believes in it, and whether everyone does.

 

Saying that religion is believeable because of the amount of people following it, is like saying I shouldn't question it because no one else does.

The fact that many believe, is not a ground for the truthfulness of the matter.

 

Romy, that statement is bizarre. The people who follow the Bible that are racist, homophobic, chauvinistic, etc. CHOOSE to be racist, homophobic and chauvinistic, the Bible doesn't make them do it.

1. You have to admit the Bible encourages it, especially chauvinism and homophobia.

You also have to admit we'd have less chauvinist, homophobic, racist, etc. people, without the Bible.

Ofcourse, there are homophobic(/chauvinist/racist) atheists too, and there are religous people who are not, but the stats show the average of each group is more inclined to go one way.

Also, you cannot choose to be any of those, it's not that simple. Just like you cannot choose you likes and dislikes, you cannot choose to like cheese cake, you cannot choose to be homophobic.

 

Wow. And what I mean to say, is you should question your beliefs, but what I'm implying is that if there are 5 billion people who believe in a Christian god for example, compare that to the 4 people who believe in Unicorns... There's gotta be evidence for God, for that many people to follow.

2. No, because there's no "point" in believing in unicorns. Unicorns don't explain the unexplainable (such as why we're here, how we got here, where we're going to, etc), and a God does.

I see religion as comfort. It explains what we cannot understand, it hands over some guidelines, it gives meaning to life, etc. That's why there are so many believers, not necessarily because there's "evidence".

 

While a lot of Christians are gullible mindless followers, a lot more atheists are as well, then they would like to admit.

3. I wouldn't got for "a lot more", especially since there are less atheists than Christians to begin with.

 

 

Atheists tend to believe they copy wrote intelligence, logic, "truth," etc when in reality it shows how foolish most are.

4. Not to be petty, but atheists are statistically more educated and smarter.

Ofcourse, that does not mean all atheists are smart, and neither does it mean that being religous makes you dumb.

 

And at your fishing comment, its an analogy, people compare baking a cake to putting together a house, sure you're both times building something, but you can't eat a house, and you can't sleep in the average sized cake. It's an analogy, I repeat.

Yes, it is an analogy. What I was pointing out is that this analogy only stands for fishing as a hobby, or even a way of life, rather than fishing as dictating morals and encourging bigottry.

1. You say the Bible instigates bigotry against several groups. I would have to disagree. One of the most well known Jesus quotes "love your enemy". Jesus is considered the final prophet and completes the word of God so His commands finalize all instructions of God. He also says not to judge least you're judged 7 x 7 times (which is emphatic language to mean a lot). Now there might be people like the WBC who distort the Bible and spread messages of hate, but the WBC are also denounced by every church who I have heard give a statement on them. The Catholic Church doesn't even acknowledge them as a church.

 

2. God does not explain why we are here, the physical processes of how we were created, etc. as those can all be scientifically explained. The existence of God deals with the study of the interior disposition and our international unity. And religion does not explain the unexplainable because every single confirmation, the bishop of my diocese always says the same cliche when he explains all this unexplainable stuff which fundamentalist religion says the Bible answers and he goes so now do you understand it? Usually everyone says yes and he goes good, cuz I don't and than rants on and on about how we can't and will not.

 

3. I think he means percentage. And there are a lot of gullible and stupid atheists. I have no statistic that compares the religiously education measurement to atheist, but I know of many atheist who are so because it is "cool" and the like. I'm not saying many atheists are like this, I just know of this type. Gullible and submissive has little to do with religious or atheistic affiliation more with personal inclination.

 

4. I simply disagree with that. That's your own baseless feeling of superiority.

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1.I wasn't talking about your religion specifically, but about religions in general. Religions, in general, encourage bigotry (even if not verbally). Because taking other opinions as wrong before examining those is bigoted.

You specifically, may not be a bigot, but many other religous are.

 

2. "God does not explain why we are here"

Which God? Again, I'm talking about religion in general.

 

God fills gaps of knowledge. God answers questions such as- What happens when we die, what our lives should be like, how we were created, etc.

 

3. Questioning your beliefs is a very hard thing to do, and I know that from experience.

Atheists who stopped believing are a lot different from atheists who were simply like that forever.

 

4. Disagree? Look it up.

It's statistically proven, there's nothing to agree/disagree about here.

 

Statistically, atheists are more educated. And that's a fact.

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4. Disagree? Look it up.

It's statistically proven, there's nothing to agree/disagree about here.

 

Statistically, atheists are more educated. And that's a fact.

1. I can't disagree with you there. There are a lot of bigoted religious people. Mind you, they spit on their own policy, as the "religious" are normally so blinded by their fervor they violate basic policies of their Church.

 

2. I know you're talking about religion in general. Pope John Paul II (as did Pius X, Pius XII and Benedict XVII) made specific declarations on the non-conflicting natures of science and religion, which is one instance in which a few billions of adherents were told religion does not answer the physical questions. And God does not fill in the gap of knowledge for the ways we should act, etc. because those are a product of our own mental deductions which are just outlined in by things such as Catholic dogma. As I said, the reason why a belief in God does not excuse one from morality is that have consciousness and the ability to make moral deductions therefore with their own ability they should be able to reach the same conclusions of morals as one who takes them from Dogma. To be blunt, a disbelief in God is not damning, it is only considered being blind and one is not damned for being blind.

 

3. And I know questioning beliefs is hard to do. I use to not believe in God because I only heard dogmatic beliefs literally and therefore reached the logical assumption that reason and a belief in God could not exist. However, I was uneducated theologically and through a greater understanding and clarity I was able to see both reason and God. If people had the type of theological study I've had there would be a lot more believers, but it would be too costly and time consuming. Modern day mainstream presentation of religion has a lot to do with its reception, I greatly dislike the idea atheism 100% of the time is derived from reason.

 

4. It is an unfair comparison. In all the studies I saw it was like atheists/agnostics and than fundamentalists. It also doesn't take into account the modern phenomenon of the death of religion. I'm sure if you took the same statistic in the 1500's it would be extremely different and in favor of the religious. The high rate of dismissal of religion is an occurrence of modernity not intelligence. Obivously if one associates the fundamentalists with the moderate theists intelligence with drop as many fundamentalists do not care about the rationale of things. I'm sure there are many atheists who are not self-proclaimed atheists but are incredibly illogical. Terminology is also a factor as one may be something but the term itself is a deterrent to identify with and as such results are inaccurate. But need I remind you of people like Monsignor Georges Lemaître? The Jesuits? Etc. The Catholic Church funds and runs the largest non-governmental education system in the world and I would say our education systems are better than publicly supplied schools [at least in the US] and I say that in New Jersey, which is suppose to be the state with the best public school system.


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He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked... Your daily life is your temple and your religion

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And God does not fill in the gap of knowledge for the ways we should act, etc.

Dunno about God, but the Bible definitely does. "You shall not murder" seems like a perfect example for a guideline simply thrown at us, or in other words "how we should act".

 

As I said, the reason why a belief in God does not excuse one from morality is that have consciousness and the ability to make moral deductions therefore with their own ability they should be able to reach the same conclusions of morals as one who takes them from Dogma. To be blunt, a disbelief in God is not damning, it is only considered being blind and one is not damned for being blind.

Religion tells you what you should be acting like. It doesn't matter whether you have the choice or not, you're told what you should be doing.

 

I greatly dislike the idea atheism 100% of the time is derived from reason.

Ofcourse not, I never claimed otherwise. Many atheists just base their opinions on a general dislike of religion, or irrational feelings, as do theists.

 

I'm sure if you took the same statistic in the 1500's it would be extremely different and in favor of the religious.

I'm not too sure, back then atheism was almost exclusively a philosophers' thing.

 

The high rate of dismissal of religion is an occurrence of modernity not intelligence.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Either way I was only pointing at stats, nothing more.

 

 

Obivously if one associates the fundamentalists with the moderate theists intelligence with drop as many fundamentalists do not care about the rationale of things. I'm sure there are many atheists who are not self-proclaimed atheists but are incredibly illogical.

Obviously. There are extremely stupid people in both groups.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me just make something clear here. I definitely wasn't saying being atheist makes you smart, and neither was I saying being religous makes you dumb. There are smart and dumb people in both groups.

What I was saying, is that statistics show the average "member" of each group tends to be more/less educated.

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Intelligence isn't the same thing as being educated, though. A stupid person is not necessarily ignorant, and an ignorant person is not necessarily stupid. Nonetheless, what I've seen is that on the whole atheists are more intelligent. It also comes down to open-mindedness, and religion restricts your ability to be open to new ideas. It's the dogmatic nature of it, mixed with the fact that people base their entire lives on their religion, that they will defend it to the very last drop even when it's obvious that they're wrong. I mean, if my entire life was based around the creation story, I could see myself being dogmatic and outright rejecting evolution. If my entire life was based around that, it would fall apart if I accepted that. So people who are more susceptible to the dogmatic nature of religion are, in general, less intelligent than those who are not.

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Intelligence isn't the same thing as being educated, though. A stupid person is not necessarily ignorant, and an ignorant person is not necessarily stupid. Nonetheless, what I've seen is that on the whole atheists are more intelligent. It also comes down to open-mindedness, and religion restricts your ability to be open to new ideas. It's the dogmatic nature of it, mixed with the fact that people base their entire lives on their religion, that they will defend it to the very last drop even when it's obvious that they're wrong. I mean, if my entire life was based around the creation story, I could see myself being dogmatic and outright rejecting evolution. If my entire life was based around that, it would fall apart if I accepted that. So people who are more susceptible to the dogmatic nature of religion are, in general, less intelligent than those who are not.

Dogmas are generally either extremely specific or too vague to have any affect on one's open-mindedness. It has to do with being a drone who follows what one person says as a dogma. For instance the Catholic dogma on creation is so reconcilable with science all the conditions needing to be met are just that God is the prime and source. It doesn't matter if the universe was created by the Big Bang or some unexplainable occurrence, however people misinterpreted the dogma in their own close-mindedness and said God directly and literally molded the earth himself 6000years ago. Most religious persons' inability to reconcile religion with reason and science is out of their own egotism, self-desire or stupidity.

 

But dogmas have nothing to do with close-mindedness really. My grandmother who is a strict Catholic and all that who went to school when nuns and priests taught and she knows all the dogmas and stances of the major theologians yet believes in Evolution and the "glory and marvels of science" as she puts it.

 

And to romy saying you are told what you should do is not completely correct. The canon means rules in Greek. It is not called laws, they are guidelines. Anything in the canon can be dispensed in a certain instance. Dogmatic items cannot be broken, and they're reasonable things, like one should follow what they believe in as long as it does not infringe or effect others ability and is in accordance with their conscience.


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He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked... Your daily life is your temple and your religion

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Intelligence isn't the same thing as being educated, though. A stupid person is not necessarily ignorant, and an ignorant person is not necessarily stupid. Nonetheless, what I've seen is that on the whole atheists are more intelligent. It also comes down to open-mindedness, and religion restricts your ability to be open to new ideas. It's the dogmatic nature of it, mixed with the fact that people base their entire lives on their religion, that they will defend it to the very last drop even when it's obvious that they're wrong. I mean, if my entire life was based around the creation story, I could see myself being dogmatic and outright rejecting evolution. If my entire life was based around that, it would fall apart if I accepted that. So people who are more susceptible to the dogmatic nature of religion are, in general, less intelligent than those who are not.

 

 

 

Half of that paragraph I agree with, the other half is in meh territory. First off, there's so many damn red neck and effectively stupid peasants who worship God so their corn will grow, that's bound to affect the status of intelligent theists v. atheists. (thats more about the post above yours)

 

The only difference I see from Atheism and Theism, is the God you worship. Theists worship the idea of no God, you worship the idea of a God. That statement might make no sense, but if you think about it, it really is completely true. Now, that we have defined that, being Atheistic does not guarantee you that you'll be open minded, same for being theistic. Which is really why I find the idea of comparing statistics of followers of different religions quite strange, it's really just useless semantics that doesn't affect the argument itself.


I have all the 99s, and have been playing since 2001. Comped 4/30/15 

My Araxxi Kills: 459::Araxxi Drops(KC):

Araxxi Hilts: 4x Eye (14/126/149/459), Web - (100) Fang (193)

Araxxi Legs Completed: 5 ---Top (69/206/234/292/361), Middle (163/176/278/343/395), Bottom (135/256/350/359/397)
Boss Pets: Supreme - 848 KC

If you play Xbox One - Add me! GT: Urtehnoes - Currently on a Destiny binge 

 

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Thats what I'm trying to say L I'm just not good at communicating my thoughts >.<


I have all the 99s, and have been playing since 2001. Comped 4/30/15 

My Araxxi Kills: 459::Araxxi Drops(KC):

Araxxi Hilts: 4x Eye (14/126/149/459), Web - (100) Fang (193)

Araxxi Legs Completed: 5 ---Top (69/206/234/292/361), Middle (163/176/278/343/395), Bottom (135/256/350/359/397)
Boss Pets: Supreme - 848 KC

If you play Xbox One - Add me! GT: Urtehnoes - Currently on a Destiny binge 

 

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However, I was uneducated theologically and through a greater understanding and clarity I was able to see both reason and God.

Good for you, I guess. After all the "theological education" I've gotten, I haven't been able to see that.

 

We went through our old holiday photos yesterday and there I had my silver cross in june 2007. I lost it somewhere that year however and haven't had any necklaces/ jewellery since. I took part in my last christian camp that summer (it was my summer job) and my first post in this topic was in november 2008. So something happened there.

 

 

Believe it or not, everything is not possible.

 

Here's a good example (from another topic)

 

I try desperately to create a triangle with two obtuse angles.

 

 

 

I know, you probably think me an idiot. But I think it's possible. So I keep trying. After all, those who broke the possibility barriers of the world were some of the best benefactors, eh?

 

 

:mrgreen:

 

Thinking that everything is possible, even if only to a supernatural force, I believe, is immensely dangerous to both individuals and the community.

Now I have to apologize to Lent, because it is infact possible to make a triangle with two obtuse angles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1nos_Bolyai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0s620qpNmE

 

triangles.jpg

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