His Dark Materials - Parental right violation?

[InfiniteLove]

THIS THREAD IS NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS RELIGION BUT ON THE RIGHT PARENTS HAVE TO TEACH THEIR CHILDREN WHAT THEY PLEASE!

 

 

 

Heya Guys, recently the movie "The Golden Compass" was realeased and I enjoyed it but I read up on it and found "odd" information about the book series on which it was based.

 

 

 

In fact the author, Phillip Pullman, is against religion. Although I am Christian I enjoyed the movie because at first I did not realize the symbolism in which he intended for us to recogonize. This series is intended for children and young teens so why did he have to make his beliefs known? Is he trying to change the religion of children and defying their parent's right to raise them as they please? He is inderectly ruining the parenting process for whoever understands and chooses to follow his beliefs. (Not saying that many are like this)

 

 

 

I have chosen to boycott the "His Dark Matter" series not because it is anti-religious but that it is intended to affect the parenting process. Here are a few quotes from the article I read.

 

 

 

the books, resting somewhere between the fantasy and science fiction genres, revolve around a pair of pre-adolescents, Lyra and Will, children from different worlds (literally) who share two common bonds: the loss of parents and the possession of objects which give them unique access to knowledge. Lyra holds the Golden Compass of the first book, an object which communicates truth about any situation to any person wise enough to be able to read it, which Lyra is. WillÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s gift is the Subtle Knife (the title of the second volume), an instrument which can cut open windows to other worlds.

 

 

 

Through their adventures in various worlds, it becomes clear that Lyra and Will are objects of interest to both sides in another heavenly war, this one, like the first, between God (the Authority) and Satan (called Lord Asriel here). Why? Because, it seems, these two children will be essential actors in a re-enacting of the Fall and Temptation of humanity, a second chance to claim the true fruit of the Fall, which was never really sin, it seems, but knowledge and wisdom, replacing the old, authoritarian ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅKingdom of HeavenÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[runesmithie]

Movies with symbolism!?!?

 

 

 

Say it ain't so D:

[Nom]

First, fix the title. It's His Dark Materials.

 

 

 

Second:

 

 

 

Although I am Christian I enjoyed the movie because at first I did not realize the symbolism in which he intended for us to recogonize.

 

 

 

Now how the hell do you expect kids to work out the symbolism when they're not even at the stage where they can fully comprehend their own faith? You didn't see it, and I assume you're an adult or at least an older teenager.

 

 

 

I see no problem with this. Why is it that people only just now start making a huge deal out of it? ZOMG, they made a movie. These books were published in the mid 90's. The written word is so much more powerful than the screen, but radical Christians only now start making a big deal out of it when the movie comes out, while the books have been available in school book orders for years. I should know, I got them that way. And I must say, they are excellent books. It's refreshing to see someone challenge the views of the masses and publish something radically different. It is, at the heart, an in-depth study on spirituality. I recommend you and anyone else freaking out over this movie go read the books, and let the atheists have their say. What's the big deal?

 

 

 

Oh, and this is a fantasy book. Why would people make as big a deal out of it as The Da Vinci Code (another excellent book), when it is obviously set in a fanatasy world, unlike DVC.

[InfiniteLove]

Movies with symbolism!?!?

 

 

 

Say it ain't so D:

 

 

 

You made me laugh, hehe. :

 

I suppose the first movie has been watered down but the author insists that the second and third aren't.

[venomai]

You say you didn't even pick up on the symbolism and that you enjoyed the movies. So why would you boycott it? Why would a child be any more inclined to understanding the symbolism, if you can't?

 

 

 

And, even if a child does pick up on the symbolism, what is to say it will have any impact on their opinion? Did watching the movie change your view on religion?

 

 

 

One shouldn't shield their children from an opposing opinion. Instead, they should embrace the different opinions, and let the child make their own decisions. If the child is too young to do so, then they are also too young to understand the symbolism in a series like His Dark Material.

[InfiniteLove]

First, fix the title. It's His Dark Materials.

 

 

 

Second:

 

 

 

Although I am Christian I enjoyed the movie because at first I did not realize the symbolism in which he intended for us to recogonize.

 

 

 

Now how the hell do you expect kids to work out the symbolism when they're not even at the stage where they can fully comprehend their own faith? You didn't see it, and I assume you're an adult or at least an older teenager.

 

 

 

I see no problem with this. Why is it that people only just now start making a huge deal out of it? ZOMG, they made a movie. These books were published in the mid 90's. The written word is so much more powerful than the screen, but radical Christians only now start making a big deal out of it when the movie comes out, while the books have been available in school book orders for years. I should know, I got them that way. And I must say, they are excellent books. It's refreshing to see someone challenge the views of the masses and publish something radically different. It is, at the heart, an in-depth study on spirituality. I recommend you and anyone else freaking out over this movie go read the books, and let the atheists have their say. What's the big deal?

 

 

 

Oh, and this is a fantasy book. Why would people make as big a deal out of it as The Da Vinci Code (another excellent book), when it is obviously set in a fanatasy world, unlike DVC.

 

 

 

Based on this statement most of your argument becomes null.

 

 

 

What makes it worse, if possible, is PullmanÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s own dishonest attitude towards his work. In interview after interview, the author claims that he doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t even like his books to be classified as ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬Åfantasy,ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[InfiniteLove]

You say you didn't even pick up on the symbolism and that you enjoyed the movies. So why would you boycott it? Why would a child be any more inclined to understanding the symbolism, if you can't?

 

 

 

And, even if a child does pick up on the symbolism, what is to say it will have any impact on their opinion? Did watching the movie change your view on religion?

 

 

 

One shouldn't shield their children from an opposing opinion. Instead, they should embrace the different opinions, and let the child make their own decisions. If the child is too young to do so, then they are also too young to understand the symbolism in a series like His Dark Material.

 

 

 

I guess I should have said that as the series goes on the anti-religion beliefs become more obvious. It will be easier to pick up in the second and third books/movies.

 

 

 

Parents have the right to teach their children what they want. There is no way you can "shield" your children from other beliefs but you can bide enough time to convince them of what you thing is right. (Notice I did not use the word "Religion" in the previous statement)

[venomai]

I guess I should have said that as the series goes on the anti-religion beliefs become more obvious. It will be easier to pick up in the second and third books/movies.

 

That's just a different opinion than yours, no need to boycott everything that doesn't agree with you.

 

 

 

Anyways, you said in your first post that anti-religion isn't the reason you are boycotting it:

 

I have chosen to boycott the "His Dark Matter" series not because it is anti-religious but that it is intended to affect the parenting process.

 

 

 

 

 

Parents have the right to teach their children what they want.

 

This is untrue. Try teaching your children to grow up as murderers and child services will take you away.

 

 

 

There is no way you can "shield" your children from other beliefs but you can bide enough time to convince them of what you thing is right. (Notice I did not use the word "Religion" in the previous statement)

 

In the case of His Dark Materials, you would be effectively shielding your children by not letting them see the different opinions expressed in the movie.

 

 

 

And yes, it's true that with enough convincing you may very well be able to change your child's opinion. But that's along the same lines as what you claim Pullman is doing -- you would be pushing your own beliefs down the throats of your children.

 

 

 

The official stance of the Christian Church is that His Dark Materials is "ok". Why would you go against your own religious leaders?

[Nom]

Let me clear out the 'freking out' statement. That was just a general address to a lot of the people out there who are indeed freaking out. (There are like 5 Facebook groups with names like 'BOYCOTT GOLDEN COMPASS!!!') I still recommend you read the books.

 

 

 

One of the biggest problems with this whole debacle is that the radical Christians who are against the movie are taking Pullman's words way out of context and trying to make him look like 'the devil' or something. To address the quote you used, think. I said before that his books are a study in spirituality. That may very well be what he is referring to. Just because he says he is a realist in his writing doesn't mean that he is trying to corrupt little kids or anything. He is simply putting his own views out there.

 

 

 

Now let me make this clear. These books are not directed towards children. They are intended for a more mature audience that can handle the themes presented in a reasonable way. And let's face it, any kid who does read it wouldn't understand the atheistic viewpoint behind the story. Even the movie is rated PG-13. It's not like Pullman is disguising satanic ideals as a children's book in an attempt to brainwash all adolescents into being morally corrupt.

 

 

 

You keep talking about the right of parents to teach their kids what they want. How are these books interfering with that right in any way whatsoever? Pullman isn't sitting the kids down in a Sunday school and preaching them the devil. He is publishing books and movies that must be bought/viewed with full knowledge of the parents. And if, at any point, the child happens to recognize any of the themes in His Dark Materials, it is still perfectly within the parents power to decide what to do.

 

 

 

This whole controversy is ridiculously overhyped. Same thing happened with The Da Vinci Code, and that passed. Leave the good writers alone.

[venomai]

I am not denying the quality of the books. It's the intended audience that is the problem. If he wanted to spread a religious belief, why direct it towards children?

 

Have you read the books? I wouldn't say the books are directed towards children. The content is very mature, and the books themselves are certainly not "easy" reads.

 

Late teens is a more accurate target.

[InfiniteLove]

I guess I should have said that as the series goes on the anti-religion beliefs become more obvious. It will be easier to pick up in the second and third books/movies.

 

That's just a different opinion than yours, no need to boycott everything that doesn't agree with you.

 

 

 

Anyways, you said in your first post that anti-religion isn't the reason you are boycotting it:

 

I have chosen to boycott the "His Dark Matter" series not because it is anti-religious but that it is intended to affect the parenting process.

 

 

 

 

 

Parents have the right to teach their children what they want.

 

This is untrue. Try teaching your children to grow up as murderers and child services will take you away.

 

 

 

There is no way you can "shield" your children from other beliefs but you can bide enough time to convince them of what you thing is right. (Notice I did not use the word "Religion" in the previous statement)

 

In the case of His Dark Materials, you would be effectively shielding your children by not letting them see the different opinions expressed in the movie.

 

 

 

And yes, it's true that with enough convincing you may very well be able to change your child's opinion. But that's along the same lines as what you claim Pullman is doing -- you would be pushing your own beliefs down the throats of your children.

 

 

 

The official stance of the Christian Church is that His Dark Materials is "ok". Why would you go against your own religious leaders?

 

 

 

The right to teach your children your religion is part of the parenting process. I said I was not attacking religion which is totally true. I suppose you could just keep it away from your children but many parents are ignorant.

 

 

 

I was really just trying to start a debate and my religious leader is God not the Christian chruch.

[InfiniteLove]

I am not denying the quality of the books. It's the intended audience that is the problem. If he wanted to spread a religious belief, why direct it towards children?

 

Have you read the books? I wouldn't say the books are directed towards children. The content is very mature, and the books themselves are certainly not "easy" reads.

 

Late teens is a more accurate target.

 

 

 

Why would the main characters be at a pre-adolescent stage if it were not directed towards pre-adolescents?

[venomai]

Fair enough. I'm only trying to keep the debate going, no harm meant. :) It's an interesting subject.

 

 

 

Why would the main characters be at a pre-adolescent stage if it were not directed towards pre-adolescents?

 

The protagonist in a novel does not need to be the same age as the target audience. Many novels have adult protagonists but are aimed at teens, and vice versa.

 

 

 

The right to teach your children your religion is part of the parenting process.

 

That's true, but like I said, you shouldn't be forcing your opinions on them. If you do, you are being just as bad as you claim Pullman to be. That's why I suggested you let your children embrace different opinions. By boycotting or blocking potential for different opinions, you are effectively forcing your own opinion on your children.

 

 

 

Anyways, we shouldn't be talking about children, as most of them won't be watching/reading His Dark Materials.

 

 

 

Instead, let's change the discussion to late teens and young adults, which is a more appropriate target for the series.

 

 

 

In my opinion, by the time a person hits their late teens, the beliefs they were raised with are pretty much set in stone. Granted, certain experiences may change those beliefs, but, for the most part, they will follow them throughout their entire life.

 

 

 

Again, I ask you, did you feel that this movie has affected your religious beliefs? If not, then what makes you think it will affect others of your age or older?

 

 

 

You can't boycott every opinion that differs from yours. Even though I am not anti-religious, I respect Pullman for at least preaching his beliefs in a subtle and artistic manner.

 

 

 

Have you ever been harassed by religious groups? I would much prefer subtle symbolism in a movie to what I currently get. Certain Christians, among other religious persons, don't hesitate to stop me on the street, phone my house, and knock on my front door to try and convert me to their belief system.

 

Pullman does it through entertainment and beautiful artistic symbolism and he gets bashed for it?

[Giordano]

I am not denying the quality of the books. It's the intended audience that is the problem. If he wanted to spread a religious belief, why direct it towards children?

 

Have you read the books? I wouldn't say the books are directed towards children. The content is very mature, and the books themselves are certainly not "easy" reads.

 

Late teens is a more accurate target.

 

 

 

Why would the main characters be at a pre-adolescent stage if it were not directed towards pre-adolescents?

 

I suppose (I didn't see the movie nor read the books) to make them look innocent? Children are viewed as innocent in literature and two innocent children against a 'evil' state seems an alright setting of a story...

 

 

 

Anyway,

 

One shouldn't shield their children from an opposing opinion. Instead, they should embrace the different opinions, and let the child make their own decisions. If the child is too young to do so, then they are also too young to understand the symbolism in a series like His Dark Material.

 

Amen. :P

[Nom]

Venomai, I like the way you roll :P . We have a lot of similar viewpoints.

 

 

 

*Thinks of soft drugs thread*

[Led-Zeppelin]

All of us Atheists should unite and complain about The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe for it's obvious Christian themes! Brain washing my children ZOMgz!!!

[Errdoth]

OH NOES!! We can't let teh kiddies get any ideas! Everyone.........PROTESTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT :lol:

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but seriously, the books have been out since like the 1990s (I think) and hell, they've been sitting on the bookshelf in the little library thing, at my catholic school up until a couple of weeks ago. To be able to even understand those books, you'll need to be above an age where you can discern fiction from reality. Some of my friends told me their parents wouldn't let them see the movie because they got a letter from the bishop saying it was a sin, and was blasphemous (On par with Muhammad-Bear :?: :-k )

 

 

 

Here we are in the 21st century and STILL the Catholic Church has learned nothing about keeping its mouth shut about pointless populism? The Church's primary role for the faithful should be about spiritual leadership, but no, it wants to lead socially where it no longer has a place.

 

 

 

(The books were pretty awesome, though the movie only hit 9mil on opening day, I dunno if I'll see it. Depends on if I get to walk through some protesters :P )

 

 

 

Edit: Before I forget

 

 

The right to teach your children your religion is part of the parenting process.

 

If I ever have kids, they're going to be raised in a strictly neutralist environment until they're able to decide for themselves. Set the dogma in early, then they'll probably be to firm/afraid to challenge it as they grow up :notalk:

[warri0r45]

I hardly see how putting your opinion out there, especially in the form something you actually have to choose to buy, infringes on anyones rights be they parents or not. But then there seems to be the allegation that this guy is putting his opinion in his work subtly with malevolent intentions and targeting it at impressionable children in order to infringe on their religious beliefs. I've got no idea how much truth is in that or exactly what the target audience is because I've not seen his work.

 

 

 

My opinion is that no one should influence young, naieve children to one religious view or another (including atheistic or anti-religious views), including parents and including anyone aiming material at younger, naieve kids (I'm talking actual indoctrination type stuff here). In this sense I agree with what Errdoth posted.

 

 

 

Just to cover my behind, I'm not saying don't teach your kid morals, you can obviously do this without saying a man 2000 years ago was divine, a god created the world in six days 6000 years ago, religious people are all cooky nuts who don't know what they're talking about or everything religious people claim is wrong, etc.

[Mercifull]

And the Narnia series was a metaphor for Christianity. I dont boo hoo about that.

[mad4u689]

All of us Atheists should unite and complain about The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe for it's obvious Christian themes! Brain washing my children ZOMgz!!!

 

 

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

 

 

I've read the His Dark Materials series, and I would say I'm a fan of the books.

 

 

 

Movies and books have symbolism. It's a fact. It's not surprising. Often they have underlying themes - for example, both "The 40-Year-Old Virgin" and "Knocked Up", marketed as comedies, had strong underlying conservative messages about sex and marriage. That's just how stories work - literature isn't even considered good literature if it's just supposed to be taken at face value. Good literature and film should have an underlying message, symbolism, etc.

 

 

 

Go boycott Lord of the Flies, or The Shawshank Redemption, or American Beauty, or American History X - or the Chronicles of Narnia. If you don't boycott those, too, then you're lying about it not being a religious thing.

[mixand]

I'm against religions, the world would be a better place.

[BlueTear]

Parents have the right to teach their children what they want. There is no way you can "shield" your children from other beliefs but you can bide enough time to convince them of what you thing is right. (Notice I did not use the word "Religion" in the previous statement)

Parents having the right to teach their children what they want should be interprated as parents having several years on which to impress on their young, by both example and reasoning, the validity of their chosen lifestyle to offer as a guide when the child makes a decision regarding his/hers own life.

 

 

 

Not as unchallenged indoctrination of whatever the parents happends to believe is right.

[baron8000]

Dammit someone mentioned Narnia before I could :lol:

 

 

 

Stop getting your knickers in a twist, Parental rights aren't violated - if the parents didn't want their kids to read it, they wouldn't let them, same deal with the film.

 

 

 

Common sense = Problem solved.

[StrOwez]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=atTSwau9fwM

 

 

 

this man says everything I would ^^

[ironmaiden666]

I have just some problems with this thread

 

 

 

 

 

This series is intended for children and young teens

 

 

 

I did not reed these books until I was 12/13 and I am a very competent reader, and my sister who is 13 almost 14 is only just startign reading them, they are too difficult for young children to undertsand, or even enjoy.

 

 

 

I have chosen to boycott the "His Dark Matter" series not because it is anti-religious but that it is intended to affect the parenting process.

 

 

 

I don't quite get what you mean by it affecting the parenting process, doesnt every ficticous novel, film or televsion programme have a view on the world, so whould they all be banned because they might influence kids?

 

 

 

Lyra holds the Golden Compass

 

 

 

Its not a compass, its called the alethometer, but known as the golden compass in the american version and the film.

 

 

 

God (the Authority) and Satan (called Lord Asriel here

 

 

 

Lord Asriel is NOT satan, there is no reference in the books at all that he is satan or the devil, he is merely trying to make the Worlds a better place.

 

 

 

In LyraÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s world, one which is similar to but not exactly like ours (which is WillÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s), the ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅChurch,ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ