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Patriotism and Nationalism


magekillr

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American Independence Day has just passed (or will as I'm typing this up), so I figured I would see what other people think about Patriotism and Nationalism.

 

 

 

I think nationalism and patriotism are both equally dumb ideas as they are used synonymously quite often. I don't see anything terribly wrong with celebrating the birth of your nation, especially with the way the world is structured I guess, but the levels that America takes it is so beyond me.

 

 

 

I went to my grandparent's house today to enjoy barbecues, drink, family, and I'm asked where my "Red white and blue" is. I said that I don't believe in having pride in one's nation, and my family looked at me like I was born somewhere not on this Earth.

 

 

 

The attitude that somehow I'm ungrateful because I disagree with unconditional pride in my country is what makes me mad about this holiday. Actually, not the holiday, but the idea in general.

 

 

 

Numero Uno Problem with America: The American Dream.

 

 

 

The American Dream is the biggest lie ever to be told, and the fact that people continually profess it is the reason we don't have very good foreign relations.

 

 

 

"We're so great because this story wouldn't be possible anywhere else in the world! This makes America the greatest country on Earth! Let's share this great freedom with the rest of the world so they can live like us and be happy!"

 

 

 

That's the attitude that I'm fed up with; that we need to be revered and worshiped as being a safe haven and refuge for the rest of the world in the names of freedom and liberty.

 

 

 

People continuously call me ungrateful and say "Just look at all the people that want to come here!!!", but they don't realize it's precisely BECAUSE other people have it so much worse than us - both within and without our borders - that I cannot be party to self-indulgent nationalism.

 

 

 

We celebrate our triumphs at the expense of ignoring the woes of others. My love for humanity does not stop at the border, and American patriotism seldom takes the form of remembering the glorious things we have wrought for the world's benefit, only the glorious things we have wrought for our own benefit. And who is we, in any case? Our urban poor, the hundreds of homeless people with whom I interact on a daily basis at work, many of them veterans of our dirty wars, are they reaping the benefits of this great society of which we so self-indulgently pride ourselves on being a part? Our despised illegal immigrants, who do the work of slaves with almost nothing in the way of recompense so that we can enjoy our bloated standards of living while reviling the very people who make them possible? The millions upon millions in this nation who don't have access to even basic health care?

 

 

 

That is vanity, not pride in a high achievement. Any country can strive to make itself better, to inflate the quality of life of its citizens. That's nothing exceptional. Something to be grateful for, yes, but that gratitude must go hand-in-hand with an appreciation of the arbitrariness of privilege and an awareness of the need to redress the imbalance between what you have and what the rest of the world has not. Until these things become the dominant themes of what America calls 'patriotism' I cannot take part with my whole heart.

 

 

 

American-style patriotism ultimately serves to illustrate and enhance the differences and disparities among the human family in terms of wealth, achievement, safety, happiness, privilege, education...ultimately, indeed, to celebrate them; this I cannot bear. Maybe it's white guilt. If so, it's welcome.

 

 

 

What are you views about patriotism and nationalism, within your own country and even in general?

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Is this a thread about patriotism and nationalism in general, or just a place for you to talk about how much you hate America because we have patriotism? It seems a lot more like the latter.

 

 

 

Whatever, your posts are often flamebait anyways, I'll try not to start a war. I feel that patriotism is a good thing to have. If you ask why I have it, I can ask you why you don't. You just do, really.

 

EDIT: By the way, I would absolutely love being able to stop patriotism, and have something more along the lines of "humanism." However, due to human nature, I believe it's next to impossible.

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That's the attitude that I'm fed up with; that we need to be revered and worshiped as being a safe haven and refuge for the rest of the world in the names of freedom and liberty.

 

 

 

 

 

me to, someone needs to figure out how to get the illegal immigrants out.

 

 

 

 

 

so anyway, heres my views. Happy to be an american? me, i wouldnt say yes. but I wouldnt say no. I feel indifferent on this.

 

 

 

maybe that is where we differ?

 

 

 

patriotic? i guess, call it that blind faith for me. Proud, i would say no not really. Anyway, I guess i would defend my country's ideals by fighting in a war. I guess thats patriotic

 

 

 

but, really I dont see patriots being realistic. Cut and dry, fight for you country if you could. And i dont mean, join JUST the army and fight(or limit/specify it to just that). I mean, if we were invaded and as the public were not threatened would you put up arms against possible conquers?

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Is this a thread about patriotism and nationalism in general, or just a place for you to talk about how much you hate America because we have patriotism? It seems a lot more like the latter.

 

 

 

Whatever, your posts are often flamebait anyways, I'll try not to start a war. I feel that patriotism is a good thing to have. If you ask why I have it, I can ask you why you don't. You just do, really.

 

 

 

I live in America, I discuss American patriotism and nationalism while leaving it for the rest of the forum to discuss it in their own general ways, or to be specific for their own country. Perhaps OT should have a subsection for "debate" if you feel this is "flamebaiting".

 

 

 

Why are people proud to be American? Thats like being proud to be 5'11", or proud to have a pre-disposition to colon cancer. Aren't you "proud" of something that you've done or worked on or accomplished? Being "proud" to be American is pretty silly to me.

 

 

 

I'm happy to be American, but not proud. With that said, the "patriots" with the John Deere hats and the 4x4 trucks in my town all think this country couldn't be any better. To me, however, I see no ceiling to America's greatness and I think people are prone to settle for where we are at now. I refuse.

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I live in America, I discuss American patriotism and nationalism while leaving it for the rest of the forum to discuss it in their own general ways, or to be specific for their own country. Perhaps OT should have a subsection for "debate" if you feel this is "flamebaiting".

 

 

 

Why are people proud to be American? Thats like being proud to be 5'11", or proud to have a pre-disposition to colon cancer. Aren't you "proud" of something that you've done or worked on or accomplished? Being "proud" to be American is pretty silly to me.

 

 

 

I'm happy to be American, but not proud. With that said, the "patriots" with the John Deere hats and the 4x4 trucks in my town all think this country couldn't be any better. To me, however, I see no ceiling to America's greatness and I think people are prone to settle for where we are at now. I refuse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

seems... well. Racist, except lacking the racial background of black skin/white skin(other colors)

 

 

 

edit: yeah, this bold setting really blows.

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It's just human nature I suppose. If you take a group of people and randomly divide them into two groups, say, red and blue, then the blues will think they're better than the reds and vice versa.

La lune ne garde aucune rancune.

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Ehh, I don't see it like that Jessy. A bit skewed of a view, but...

 

 

 

And I thought you lived in Toronto, mage?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

which part? the john deere hat thing? In my eyes, that is just an ignorant statement for ANYONE to make. For someone to assume that just because they might blindly follow this countries faith/ideals WHATEVER. Just dumb, i bet you everyone of them people you describe(seems like rednecks is a short general term) thinks probably more like "Could be better, but this is fine." Its not that they merely love this country for no reason and think it COULD NOT BE BETTER. its more like, they cope with it(did i spell cope rite?)

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If it breeds a sense of "my country is better than your country" then I don't agree with it.

 

 

 

I can enjoy my country and the lifestyle and culture, but I'm not going to let that make me think that I'm better than people of other countries.

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Being half Australian and having George Bush as a president the past 7 years hasn't helped my patriotism any. :lol:

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It's just human nature I suppose. If you take a group of people and randomly divide them into two groups, say, red and blue, then the blues will think they're better than the reds and vice versa.

 

 

 

Couldn't have put it better... A 'country' only exists in name, in reality, it's just an area that consists of an amount of people. It's a settlement with borders that have been agreed to exist by other settlements.

 

 

 

Few things today are worth going to war for. I'd definitely done it in WW2 when nations like Russia/Germany were bullying others and invading smaller countries just because they could, even at huge losses.

 

 

 

In 2008... No, it's all about money and personal interests now, not land acquisition or freedom of a society. Admittedly, I worked for UN peacekeeping in 1999-2000, but that doesn't really count as a war.

 

 

 

I'd *never* fight in an offensive war, a defensive one maybe.. These days, an agressor has nothing to gain except hatred and despise of the entire world. People already see how pointless war is. USA is a prime example, it certainly hasn't become a safer nation by attacking Iraq. Now americans get kidnapped in tourist resorts, blown up in hotels, etc..

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I have a love for my country. I feel huge pride in the NHS, the BBC and the common values people in the UK share - tolerance, liberalism, democracy (etc.). That's a form of patriotism, and yes in that sense I am patriotic.

 

 

 

Nationalism is something quite different though. Then you're talking loyalty towards a particular ethnic group, in my case, the British people. Britain itself is hugely mixed in terms of ethnicity; even those who class themselves as 'White British' are likely to have some sort of Irish or European connection. There is no pure Anglo-Saxon race in this country, therefore nationalism in here is somewhat twisted and distorted. Instead of pride in our own ethnicity, it becomes a hatred of others who do have the firm ethnic and national identity we lack.

 

 

 

Clearly, nationalism in that sense is something I would never feel anything but intolerance for.

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Generally, a country is only different by name. I don't think I should celebrate my country, since I don't control where I was born, and I do something called thinking. I've come to question everything the government and authorities state. I simply won't submit to lies and the media. I want straight facts, no bias included.

 

 

 

As for nationalism and patriotism, I don't believe in patriotism, unless said country has given me a sufficient reason to support their motives. And nationalism, just strikes me as being elitist, for you support your own country, and probably not give a damn about others. I'm not sure whether to support America's actions right now.

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Ehh, I don't see it like that Jessy. A bit skewed of a view, but...

 

 

 

And I thought you lived in Toronto, mage?

 

 

 

 

 

just wanted to add a little something about this.

 

 

 

 

 

my skewed view, lets just not even assume what statement its about.

 

 

 

how are we going to realize the true consequences of things if we do not get skewed views?

 

 

 

example, nuke bomb set off in Atmosphere.

 

 

 

normal ideas: could cause radiated clouds or ignite the atoms of the atmosphere on a atomic/cellular level.

 

 

 

skewed/unconvention idea: [bleep]s up the ozone layer.

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I think I see where you are getting at here...

 

 

 

I mean, theres being loyal to your country, and then theres going overboard. Some people like to claim they live in the best country in the world. Like hell they are, it has its faults. People think they are greater because they live in X instead of Y. Well, that can be reversed.

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Honestly you'd think even the moveone.org/codepink/hate America people could for at least 1 day just shut up and recognize but I guess not.

 

 

 

 

I went to my grandparent's house today to enjoy barbecues, drink, family, and I'm asked where my "Red white and blue" is. I said that I don't believe in having pride in one's nation, and my family looked at me like I was born somewhere not on this Earth.

 

 

 

There is also a practical reason to wear those Red, White and Blue. Those colors don't run.

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I feel huge pride in the NHS,.

 

 

 

Seriously? In my eyes its nothing but failiure.

 

Millions of people having access to often life-saving healthcare that would previously have been too expensive for them to afford is a failure to you?

 

 

 

Contrary to what the Daily Mail may believe, the vast majority of the NHS works absolutely fine. If you're talking about financial deficits, then I ask you - are you prepared to pay more tax (presuming you live in Britain that is), or would you rather sit here and whine?

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There is also a practical reason to wear those Red, White and Blue. Those colors don't run.

 

I'm really sick of this kind of patriotism. Most of the people that say "these colors don't run" have had absolutely nothing to do with national conflicts, wars, or gov't economic decisions. There's nothing to be "proud" of for being an American; you didn't accomplish anything to be proud of. Be happy that you're an American, but remember, you got lucky being born here and had nothing to do with it.

 

 

 

Those colors DO run. Right into unecessary wars against 3rd world countries.

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I agree with Magekillr completely on this. I mean, I'm grateful that I'm an American because so many other kids from various countries have it a lot worse than me, but that doesn't necessarily make me proud. To be honest, I'm a little embarrassed.

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I agree with Magekillr completely on this. I mean, I'm grateful that I'm an American because so many other kids from various countries have it a lot worse than me, but that doesn't necessarily make me proud. To be honest, I'm a little embarrassed.

 

What do you have to be embarrassed about? Absolutely nothing. That argument there is very much the same as the patriotism.

 

 

 

I can't say I'm proud to be an American either, a bit like George Carlin. By my eyes, patriotism is have pride in the country itself, which I do have. I also have pride in many people of this country. I suppose you could say that's my patriotism.

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What do you have to be embarrassed about? Absolutely nothing. That argument there is very much the same as the patriotism.

 

 

 

I'm embarrassed that I have it too easy when I haven't even really earned anything. Is that better?

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