I don't see how you can be proud of being from a certain country, happy yes, but proud no. Aren't you only supposed to be proud of your actual achievements, exiting your mom in America isn't a achievement, it's something you can't even control. I'm happy to be Irish, but not proud as it's no achievement.

 

 

 

The thing about not wearing red, blue or white on July 4th and your family giving out to you I think is stupid, that's just completely over board on it. I also hate what seems to be the common American attitude of the war in Iraq, the army isn't making it safer, it's just building more hatred towards America in that region and helping further increase Al-Qaeda, there is so many examples of this happening before. Sorry if I'm stereotyping but it seems so many Americans think that their country is the greatest in the world and everyone desires to live there, thing is, practically every person in a developed country doesn't, that's what it seems to be in Western Europe anyway. I'd never want to live in America for so many reasons.

 

 

 

I have a feeling I'm going to get many pissed off replies to my comments.

^^How are we increasing Al Qaeda? That might have been true a year ago but not anymore. How long ago was it that Ryan Crocker said that Al Qaeda has never been closer to defeat?

 

 

 

I'm embarrassed that I have it too easy when I haven't even really earned anything. Is that better?

 

 

 

Thats nothing to be embarrassed about. A hell of a lot of people worked and died so you could have it easy.

Thats nothing to be embarrassed about. A hell of a lot of people worked and died so you could have it easy.

 

 

 

I didn't know people knew my own feelings more than I did. :

 

 

 

Okay. Let's bring this up again in the context of sportsmanships. You are a well respected football team facing another great team. The game is tied at the moment. At the very end, the ref makes a completely bogus call that even you know was unfair - but your team won. Yes, the crowd will be cheering you on, but you know that you didn't truly win, so you feel unaccomplished, pitiful towards the other team, and kind of lazy. Then the other team will look at you and know you have not earned what you received. That is embarrassing in my eyes.

 

 

 

This is how I feel about America. If you read my first post, you would see that I said I'm grateful. There's a difference between being grateful and being proud. I would probably be grateful if I won that football game, but certainly not proud - making me feel embarrassed instead. In America, I'm just another lazy kid, yet I have everything handed to me when I compare myself to other countries. That makes me feel unaccomplished, pitiful towards the less fortunate, lazy, and altogether embarrassed.

^^How are we increasing Al Qaeda? That might have been true a year ago but not anymore. How long ago was it that Ryan Crocker said that Al Qaeda has never been closer to defeat?

 

 

 

Let me redefine it for you. Let's say that for example, you live in a random neighborhood in a city, fairly nice, no crime. All of a sudden, some random people move in, and start screwing with the place. After watching them basically turn the place into a dump, with NO action being taken by the proper authorities, what would you do?

 

 

 

That's basically the situation as viewed by most of the Arab countries, as well as a sizable portion of the rest of the planet towards the US. As long as we stay there, they will not settle, and will keep trying to kick us out by ANY means possible. Al Quaeda might not be in the best of shape right now, but whose to say they're the only ones? [/obvious] :wall: :wall: :roll:

I think a lot of people on this thread are mixing up patriotism and nationalism, they're different things.

 

 

 

I don't see a big problem with being patriotic, to an extent. It gives people a feeling of security to support their country.

 

 

 

But nationalism I do have a problem with. A lot of people with this attitude only have it because they are ignorant, and think that conditions in America are better than anywhere else. I forgot where it was published, but I remember reading an article that ranked countries by the amount of free speech allowed in publications. America was pretty far down in the list, but I'm sure many people will tell you America is great because it allows free speech.

 

 

 

No, I'm not proud to be an American. I like to think of myself as English, because I was born there and my family is English, but I was mostly raised in America, so basically I am an American. Sometimes I do feel embarrassed to be an American too. I'm sure I wouldn't be too popular in very conservative places, I'm positive that I'm going to move away as soon as I can.

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. To the last few posters, be careful not to turn this into an argument about the war.

[bleep] the system

Thats nothing to be embarrassed about. A hell of a lot of people worked and died so you could have it easy.

 

 

 

I didn't know people knew my own feelings more than I did. :

 

 

 

Okay. Let's bring this up again in the context of sportsmanships. You are a well respected football team facing another great team. The game is tied at the moment. At the very end, the ref makes a completely bogus call that even you know was unfair - but your team won. Yes, the crowd will be cheering you on, but you know that you didn't truly win, so you feel unaccomplished, pitiful towards the other team, and kind of lazy. Then the other team will look at you and know you have not earned what you received. That is embarrassing in my eyes.

 

 

 

This is how I feel about America. If you read my first post, you would see that I said I'm grateful. There's a difference between being grateful and being proud. I would probably be grateful if I won that football game, but certainly not proud - making me feel embarrassed instead. In America, I'm just another lazy kid, yet I have everything handed to me when I compare myself to other countries. That makes me feel unaccomplished, pitiful towards the less fortunate, lazy, and altogether embarrassed.

 

 

 

 

 

Think of it as your a benchwarmer and the rest of the team has worked hard and won that game. Your still a part of the team even if you didn't play. Maybe your not proud of yourself but you should be proud of the team.

 

 

 

Let me redefine it for you. Let's say that for example, you live in a random neighborhood in a city, fairly nice, no crime. All of a sudden, some random people move in, and start screwing with the place. After watching them basically turn the place into a dump, with NO action being taken by the proper authorities, what would you do?

 

 

 

Those random people would be Al Qaeda. That is why many Iraqi militias have joined the United States in fighting them.

Think of it as your a benchwarmer and the rest of the team has worked hard and won that game. Your still a part of the team even if you didn't play. Maybe your not proud of yourself but you should be proud of the team.

 

 

 

The thing is, it was not a legit victory. That's the whole point. Also, I didn't use the team as a representation of America. The team = me as an individual American. You don't seem to have grasped my analogy. I'm just saying that I'm getting more than I earned, and everyone else can see that, therefore it is quite embarrassing.

 

 

 

And... if you really want to start on that argument, Americans aren't perfect. Our ancestors might have done a lot to help us, but what about all the times they screwed over others? Why should I be proud to have slave-master ancestors? Why should I be proud about having ancestors who kicked Native Americans off their own land?

Think of it as your a benchwarmer and the rest of the team has worked hard and won that game. Your still a part of the team even if you didn't play. Maybe your not proud of yourself but you should be proud of the team.

 

 

 

The thing is, it was not a legit victory. That's the whole point. Also, I didn't use the team as a representation of America. The team = me as an individual American. You don't seem to have grasped my analogy. I'm just saying that I'm getting more than I earned, and everyone else can see that, therefore it is quite embarrassing.

 

 

 

And... if you really want to start on that argument, Americans aren't perfect. Our ancestors might have done a lot to help us, but what about all the times they screwed over others? Why should I be proud to have slave-master ancestors? Why should I be proud about having ancestors who kicked Native Americans off their own land?

 

 

 

Analogies aside, the fact is that if you think being proud of your country is silly, then it's silly to be ashamed or embarrassed about your country of birth.

Analogies aside, the fact is that if you think being proud of your country is silly, then it's silly to be ashamed or embarrassed about your country of birth.

 

 

 

I'd rather be embarrassed about something I earned than be proud of something I didn't. (Sounds like that Kurt Cobain quote.) But hey that's just me.

 

 

 

You can wave your American flag around if you want. I have no problem with that. I just don't think that kind of pride is the right one for me. I'd rather save my arrogance for myself.

GO USA!!! :mrgreen: (As you can tell I support patriotism.)

GO USA!!! :mrgreen: (As you can tell I support patriotism.)

 

 

 

As much as I hate being irrelevant, and the fact you go to /b/, I can tell you might lean toward the whole "X country is better than Y country" mentality?

GO USA!!! :mrgreen: (As you can tell I support patriotism.)

 

 

 

 

 

It's this kind of unconditional support that I disagree with.

 

 

 

And ultimania, ignore the fact he has /b/ there. He obviously just put it there to try and look cool and edgy.

Analogies aside, the fact is that if you think being proud of your country is silly, then it's silly to be ashamed or embarrassed about your country of birth.

 

 

 

I'd rather be embarrassed about something I earned than be proud of something I didn't. (Sounds like that Kurt Cobain quote.) But hey that's just me.

 

 

 

You can wave your American flag around if you want. I have no problem with that. I just don't think that kind of pride is the right one for me. I'd rather save my arrogance for myself.

 

 

 

You missed my point. I said earlier in the thread that I thought patriotism and nationalism are more or less silly. Like Ginger Warrior I appreciate (and love) British and Scottish culture, and I love what the Union Jack stands for, but I don't recognise the superiority of my country over others just because it's "my country".

 

 

 

I only quoted you earlier because I thought you shared my views, in which case it would be odd for you to be ashamed.

I guess we're on different pages then. What I was saying is the American lifestyle spoils me too much. They have it tough in Africa. They work for their food. I don't. Like I said, I'm grateful to be an American, but not proud. We screwed over a lot of people, just to spoil me, and that is what I'm ashamed of.

^^How are we increasing Al Qaeda?

 

 

 

 

Think of it, a armed force comes into your town / city, blows it to pieces in search of a small minority (Al-Qaeda) and kills many of your friends and family who are innocent civilians. This creates much hate towards the armed force (Marines) as they hit the wrong target basically and have destroyed towns in the process. The hate then leads to people joining anti-America groups like Al-Qaeda in hope of getting some revenge on America. It's pretty obvious. A good example of it was the bloody sunday massacre, British paratroopers killed 14 innocent civil rights protesters, this lead to a huge surge in IRA numbers as people wanted to extract revenge on the British soldiers. Basically American soldiers are accidentally killing Iraqi civilians and blowing up civilian buildings in the process of capturing Al-Qaeda members, the Iraqis get pissed at this, they join Al-Qaeda in hope of extracting revenge on America.

^^ No its more the other way around now. al qaeda comes into your town. Imposes sharia law. Starts executing people in the streets and the Marines come in and help you clear them out. I mean really do people stop listening when any good news comes out of Iraq? The militias are helping us kill al qaeda. al qaeda kills more muslims than Jews or Christians. Its been like that for a while now. Thats why Ryan Crocker said this...

You are not going to hear me say that al-Qaeda is defeated, but they've never been closer to defeat than they are now

^^ No its more the other way around now. al qaeda comes into your town. Imposes sharia law. Starts executing people in the streets and the Marines come in and help you clear them out. I mean really do people stop listening when any good news comes out of Iraq? The militias are helping us kill al qaeda. al qaeda kills more muslims than Jews or Christians. Its been like that for a while now. Thats why Ryan Crocker said this...

You are not going to hear me say that al-Qaeda is defeated, but they've never been closer to defeat than they are now

 

 

 

That sentence poses the question; is the enemy of my enemy really my friend? The short answer is no - because history proves that they can become hostile quickly.

 

 

 

Also the scenario you mention sounds great on paper (or in this case on screen) but in reality, people are more likely to look towards extremist/radical groups in a time of perceived crisis. You forget that many still see the coalition as an invader and occupier. It doesn't matter if Al-Qaeda do terrible things, the mere presence of western/outside forces in muslim land is enough to generate new recruits for the various extremist groups in the Middle East.

 

Granted, there is good news coming out of Iraq now but the problem is maintaining stability.

^^ No its more the other way around now. al qaeda comes into your town. Imposes sharia law. Starts executing people in the streets and the Marines come in and help you clear them out. I mean really do people stop listening when any good news comes out of Iraq? The militias are helping us kill al qaeda. al qaeda kills more muslims than Jews or Christians. Its been like that for a while now. Thats why Ryan Crocker said this...

You are not going to hear me say that al-Qaeda is defeated, but they've never been closer to defeat than they are now

 

 

 

Oh right, so then when the American army started bombing and flattening cities trying to find a small minority of insurgents and killed many innocent Iraqi civilians in the process that only built more support for them didn't it? :roll:

 

 

 

If Americans are loved so much in Iraq then why is there videos all over the internet of the common Iraqi civilians dancing around burning puppets of Bush and American flags. Because they hate America, they hate how America practically ruined their homeland in the process of getting rid of Sadam.

^^ Theres all kinds of videos on the internet. That doesn't really mean anything. There are a lot of videos of iraqi children playing soccer with troops. Their homeland isn't really ruined. Most Iraqis are better off. I was watching some hearing in congress a few weeks ago with one sunni and one shiite member of the Iraqi parliment. They both said they were better off. And William Delahunt picked both of them so I'm sure they're probably the ones who hate America the most. What your saying might have happened a few years ago but now more and more militias are joining us and killing al qaeda.

I feel no real connection to being born and living in the country I was and am. Sure, we have our ups, but we also have our downs. I recognize fully that I live my life the way I do at the expense of atleast one other person, and I hate it. I wish I could live sustainably. I wish 8 acres of land weren't required to supply me with my degree of lifestyle. I wish someone didn't have to be paid very little so I don't have to pay as much for my goods. I wish a whole lot of things, but without a dramatic shift in my lifestyle, which would also involve dramatically shifting the lifestyles of atleast 4 other people, and require the cooperation of my government, which then changes the lifestyles of several million people.

 

 

 

I am spoiled.

 

I wish I wasn't.

 

I wish I was.

 

 

 

I am willing to change the way I live if the quality of my life does not dramatically change. I still want to be able to surf the web, have food whenever I want it, not have to worry about money, not have to worry about healthcare, not have to worry for my life, not have to worry, period. Unfortunately, I doubt that is possible on our planet Earth, with our human population. I am going to do whatever I can to make it better for others, granted it stays relatively the same for me.

 

 

 

I love my country for what it does for me, I hate it for what it and myself do to others.