Entropy is a harsh reality - Meaningless life.

[lordhathor]

This is just a little thing I wrote up, in response to a religious discussion that went way off-topic on the "meaning of life". I just thought I'd share it, because I have nothing better to do with my time, and I'm sure you're all eager to hear what I have to say............... wait, no... no, you're not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please try not to flame over this, if your religion has anything to do with the meaning of life. If you have something to say, that's more than "nuh-uh! douche!", I am way more than open to new information. If you expect to be heard out, then clechets, and verses from the bible are not the things you'll be wanting to rely on. Elegant words, with no factual backup, or evidence of any kind to support them don't hold much weight in a discussion based on science and fact.

 

 

 

All I know is what I've learned, and fancy words with an E slapped on the end aren't going to sway me or anyone else with a strong mind more than an axiom will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here it is:

 

 

 

The way I see it... When you are born... at that moment, your world begins. You have effects on everything around you. Simply breathing creates life, not only in you, but in the trees and other plants and animals, and you in essence become a source of life for everything around you. In some small way, you are feeding the planet. You give life to the trees and they recycle it and give life to the animals, which recycle that and give life to more trees and plants and animals, all using what you provided when you recycled the oxygen into carbon-dioxide. As we breathe life into the world, some of the organisms die, and the life you gave to them and that they used to survive as long as they did is recycled in the form of proteins and basically fertilizer. Their body feeds the earth which feeds the trees and bushes which provide food and oxygen, and you become part of everything around you. The world is part of you, and you are part of the world. It's all an extension of you. When you die, other organisms and life-forms carry on, and continue to live through the chemical energy you provided or helped create, but eventually those plants and animals die as well, but the stored chemical and heat energy they provided and helped create also lives on, in a sense, as a further extension of you. The plants and animals in the third generation of recycling also die, and are recycled, and so on and so forth, but eventually... when all things end, and there is no more life... our atmosphere decays, or we are destroyed by a meteor... no matter how long you sustained life through your actions and just existing, and no matter how many lives you touched, it all ends up as mulch, which at some point along the line all ends up as inanimate matter, decaying, and worthless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Entropy is a harsh reality. Everything we did and said and everything and everyone we touched becomes rubble. It becomes inanimate trash, if even that. Life has no point when you look at the big picture. Nothing you say or do is permanent. I would say nothing is written in stone, but then, even stone isnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t permanent.

 

 

 

If nothing lasts forever, not even the effects it has on its surroundings; if nothing is eternal, how can anything we do have a ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅpointÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[mad4u689]

At first I was like, "Ugh, not another post about how entropy explains why we should all be nihilists..." but reading through your post, it actually fits quite well with my own philosophy on life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm interested, have you read any existentialist writers? If not, I think you really might enjoy. Try Nietzsche - he's brilliant :D

[____]

Very brilliant, Mad. I've actually referenced him many times during high school :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And Lordhathor, couldn't agree more. Although you really shouldn't take a knife to that island with you -> That's cheating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Make your own :P

[Legolover64]

Interesting read.

[rocketman089]

Well, it's refreshing to see something related to entropy that isn't morbidly pessimistic/depressing. It may seem all and well to believe that over millenia everyone's actions, efforts, anything, will have been done in vain and have been essentially pointless, I don't agree it's a necessarily good way to model the way you live your life by.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I personally think we, humanity, still have a duty to survive, prosper, pro-create, and live on. We already know Earth is going to end somehow, whether it be a catostrophic impact from some extra-terrestial object, our own nuclear weapons, or the inevitable aging, and expanding sun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that if we can keep ourselves from destroying ourselves with nuclear weapons and war, we'll eventually buckle down on the fact that earth isn't going to last forever. Well try to terraform other planets and moons. Probably Mars or Titan first. Well eventually progress to manned interstellar travel, terraform other planets/moons to suit our needs, and further spread the seed of humanity. With humanity spread across interstellar space, well have that much of a higher chance of surviving the oncoming millennia, and become something ever more advanced, or maybe even something simpler.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's just what im thinking/hoping. If we can work to keep ouselves alive, nothing will be in vain, and the only thing that will destroy ourselves is ourselves. Now, of course, billions of years from now, things will inevitably have to end. As I understand it, all the stars will burn out their hydrogen/helium cores, burn out, and the only thing that will be left is dark matter. But that is a long, long, long time from now. I don't think it's sensible for us to think ahead that far, when humanity hasn't even been around long enough to have seen 1% of earth's history (assuming you agree with general science).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, of course, there are are other ways to think about what's going to happen, and that's religon. Christain faith (the only one I'm really keen on) pretty much believes everything dies and stays dead until Judgement Day. On judgement day, all the living believers will be raptured and be brought onto heaven by the call of Gabriel's Trumpet, and all the dead will be judged as to whether they gain entrance to heaven or not. For everyone else still living, they'll have 7 years to change faith before Jesus returns to earth, wherein those 7 years God will cast an amount of plagues and trials to, well, I don't know. The rest of that stuff is debatable and up to interpetation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, the point of that was that entropy isn't the only option for one to believe. I think religon gives people hope that their existence isn't meaningless, and nothing they do will be done in vain. Whether that's false or not, I think it's a better way to live life than to think that everything you do, everything everybody does, will eventually be pointless and meaningless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't really see that as being free, but if thinking that is what makes you feel a sense of freedom and happiness, well then good for you (not saying that sarcastically).

[lordhathor]

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying we should invoke chaos in teh streets, and say to hell with the next generation of humanity, I'm just saying that you should be able to do what you want to do, to be happy. If you want somthing, take it (meaning a goal, not like stealing gum or something). Obviously other people have ot be considered, because to get something, you have to earn it, so earn what you want, and then just take it. don't worry about what you might look like to people walking down the stret, if you dance around naked slathered in purple jelly, if you feel the need, go ahead and do it! It's your right as a human to be happy,and you owe it to your ineternal self to do so.

[rocketman089]

If you want somthing, take it (meaning a goal, not like stealing gum or something). Obviously other people have ot be considered, because to get something, you have to earn it, so earn what you want, and then just take it. don't worry about what you might look like to people walking down the stret, if you dance around naked slathered in purple jelly, if you feel the need, go ahead and do it! It's your right as a human to be happy,and you owe it to your ineternal self to do so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand what you're saying, I was just saying what I believe is the alternative way to think about the end. However, about what you say there, I agree with you, but to an extent. Like I said before, whatever makes you happy, good for you, BUT, if what makes you happy means doing so at someone elses expense, I don't think that's right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You aren't the only person in the univerese that has feelings, emotions, thinks, and whatnot, so you shouldnt act like it (not saying you're like that at all). Everyone else wants to be happy too, and I think as long as whatever you want to do doesn't interfere with other people in a negative way, it's alright.

[Mercifull]

Thanks for mentioning Friedrich Nietzsche Mad`. I was going to say about him myself but you beat me :)

 

 

 

Nietzsche was philosopher from Germany who wrote about how christianitys emphasis on the afterlife makes its believers less able to cope with actual life on earth. He argued that the ideal human, the ÃÆÃâÃâ¦Ã¢â¬Åbermensch (superman), would be able to channel passions creatively instead of suppressing them.

 

 

 

He has many great works out including The Gay Science which is where the quote "God is Dead" comes from and isnt meant to be literal. Its more of an observation than a declaration, it is Nietzsche's controversial way of saying that God has ceased to be a reckoning force in the people's lives, even if they don't recognize it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

List of works:

 

 

 

• [*:2uvau4bk] Kritische Gesamtausgabe Briefwechsel. ed. G. Colli and M. Montinari, 24 vols. in 4 parts. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 1975.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] The Antichrist. trans. Walter Kaufmann, in The Portable Nietzsche, ed. Walter Kaufmann. New York: Viking Press, 1968.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Beyond Good and Evil. trans. Walter Kaufmann. New York: Random House, 1966.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] The Birth of Tragedy. trans. Walter Kaufmann, in The Birth of Tragedy and The Case of Wagner. New York: Random House, 1967.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] The Case of Wagner. trans. Walter Kaufmann, inThe Birth of Tragedy and The Case of Wagner. New York: Random House, 1967.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Daybreak: Thoughts on the Prejudices of Morality. trans. R. J. Hollingdale. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1982.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Ecce Homo: How One Becomes What One Is. trans. Walter Kaufmann, in On the Genealogy of Morals and Ecce Homo. New York: Random House, 1967.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] The Gay Science, with a Prelude of Rhymes and an Appendix of Songs. tr. Walter Kaufmann. New York: Random House, 1974.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Human, All Too Human: A Book for Free Spirits. trans. R. J. Hollingdale. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1986.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Nietzsche Contra Wagner. trans. Walter Kaufmann, in The Portable Nietzsche. New York: Viking Press, 1968.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] On the Genealogy of Morals. trans. Walter Kaufmann and R.J. Hollingdale, in On the Genealogy of Morals and Ecce Homo. New York: Random House, 1967.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Philosophy and Truth: Selections from Nietzsche's Notebooks of the Early 1870's. trans. and ed. Daniel Breazeale. Atlantic Highlands, N.J.: Humanities Press, 1979.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks. trans. Marianne Cowan. Chicago: Henry Regnery Company, 1962.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Thus Spoke Zarathustra. trans. Walter Kaufmann, in The Portable Nietzsche. New York: Viking Press, 1968.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Twilight of the Idols. trans. Walter Kaufmann, in The Portable Nietzsche. New York: Viking Press, 1968.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] Untimely Meditations. trans. R. J. Hollingdale. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983.
   
   
   
  [*:2uvau4bk] The Will to Power. trans. Walter Kaufmann. New York: Random House, 1967.

[BlueLancer]

Lordhathor, those are some great thoughts. :) My views are very similar to yours. If all of your life you just 'want' to get better grades, work a low pay 9am-5pm job, watch a movie every Friday, drink beer, watch TV and sleep, go ahead. That's your choice. But you're wasting your life if you don't do the things you WANT to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many people actually want to spend 40 years working to get a pension in the end? What good does it do to have a pension of $4,000 a month when you're 65 years old and your bones start decaying and you get all sorts of health problems due to so much stress and working in your life? It seems like a scam to me... "Work for 40 years to live well for the last 10 ones". And if you're not lucky, (I hope not) you wont even live until the time you hit retirement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of people say "But if I want to relax every day, start my day with a bungee jump out of a plane, watch movies on a 102" plasma, eat stuff I really want to eat instead of thinking 'what I can afford', travel the world, make friends, have fun at casinos, etc. then how can I achieve it?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There isn't really an answer. It depends on what you want to do in life, and that could mean you don't really want anything materialistic. If you do, you need to have the proper funding. So the earlier you start investing in your future, the faster you'll reach your goals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So does it all boil down to how much money you've got? Maybe. Let's say you're a parent and want a safe future for your child no matter what happens. So you decide to rather invest $50,000 for your child's fund instead of buying that new car you 'need'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's see: By the time the child is 20 years old, would it be a good time to tell him/her a long time ago you invested in his/her future? Assuming the fund (note fund, not bank *account*) paid 12% yield every year, the sum would be $544,627.68. You let your child choose what he/she wants to do with that lump sum. If he/she continues investing it for another 6 years, he/she will be a millionaire by the time he/she is 26 years old.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(check out http://www.math.com/students/calculator ... mpound.htm and play around with the calculator to find out what could suit you)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But even if you're not a child, it's never too late to start. Just find out the options. And remember not everybody might have materialistic dreams so you can't judge their decisions in life. But you must acknowledge that achieving freedom, be it financially, from your job, from restrictions, it is not impossible to do. All you need is patience and a good set of brains. :)

[Mercifull]

Good theory BlueLancer but can you please tell me a find i can put my cash in that gives 12% compound interest lol. I got a few k's that i dont need for a few years :P

[NorthernHero]

Very intresting. I'm glad I read this post, altought it seemed a bit long at first :) . Thanks for the great post Lordhathor, and sharing that great life philosophy of life with us, it did have an effect on me. It was beatiful post imo.

 

 

 

Thought, my life filosophy was very much like that before reading this post, now it jumped little bit to more free thinking level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think, howerer, that you should take other peoples opinions seriously too. If your girlfriends says to you that don't eat that cheeseburger, she probably has a good reasons to it. Cheeseburgers aren't very healthy and if you eat couple of them everyday you eventually become fat and then enjoying your life isn't that easy anymore :wink: .

 

 

 

I couldn't find the part of your post where you said that you should have fun in every second of your life to quote it but im sure there was one. Anyways, I think that sometimes to actieve that happiness that we seek is to give up some goods that you want to do, like eating that cheesepurger.

 

 

 

I know the cheeseburger was just an example.

[BlueLancer]

Hey Merc 8)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Check out http://www.londonstockexchange.com/en-g ... kfunds.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It has some basic info about funds in your country (it appears there are more than 1600), you should theoretically have access to all of them simply by logging into your internet banking facility if your bank offers one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, 12% might sound like a lot but you'd be surprised at how many funds in the london stock exchange have even paid (!) over 80% a year for almost a decade. Funds are different compared to stocks because your money is pooled with thousands of other investors which makes your risk a lot lower.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was playing around with the 12% annual figure because I estimate average people would take that risk level at most if investing. But even at 5 to 8% annual the sums get really big over the years. :) If you indeed have a few k's laying around, better put them to use. You never know, you forget about it... And in 15 years you go to the bank and ask them how's the fund doing, you could be facing a (positive) heart attack when the clerk tells you the account balance and asks you 'would you like to withdraw the balance', lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW: I decided not to include the exceptional "middle to high-risk funds", particulary one... That has produced a 719,02% profit since it was launched in 2002. Just keep in mind these are exceptions and past performance isn't a guarantee for future performance. You might strike it lucky some day but it's better to rely on lower risk ones.

[lordhathor]

I'm amazed nobody has flamed in my general direction for this yet. Thanks for keeping it so civil, even when you disagree, guys. I find that's fairly rare in posts like these.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the whole cheeseburger thing, I kinda worded that poorly, but nothing else seemed to fit there. It was meant to represent the ominous "nagging girlfriend" or something. It's important to consider the future when you choose happiness in the present (hell, I could write up a whole inspirational speech with that one line). If you do something now, that seems quite pleasureable, you have to consider wether or not you'll be happy 10 years from now. Life is a series of equations, and the one we're talking about now is the happiness variable (H). At various times throughout your life, you're going to have to build an equation, where one of the vaiables is H. In that equation, you have to consider the long-term effects. If the equation that would allow you to go bungee jumping (something you may really wnat to do) would raise your H variable, you have to consider beforehand, 'CAN I do this?'

 

 

 

If you ate too many chesseburgers, and now you can't do it, because the cord would snap or something, then you decrease the value of H, but if you ate a few, and found them enjoyable, but didn't eat too many, then you can do both, and have an overall greater value of H. That's not too great of an example, but sufficive to say, you must look at the "big picture" whenever you decide to do anything that could sacrifice your health, or long life. If you do something that shortens your life span by a year, it's not a HUGE deal, as you'll probably be dropping off the last, boring, old, slow-driving years of your life. No bungee-jumping going on then. But if you do something that could knock off the last ten years, or that makes you less able to do some of the thing syou'd enjoy, it's just bad math.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The bank fund analogy was probably best. If you give up 50 grand now, and throw it in a fund, or the stock market, or whatever, and end up with 60 grand later, you can spend that on something better than before! If you NEEDED the 50 grand then, but didn't need the 60 grand later, it's a bad idea, but if you can sacrifice that ammount, and know that the extra oney later on will do you better than the current ammoutn will now, it's a good investment. that's good math, and it increases your H value. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for me, in case you're wondering, I had a job working in a call center, making calls to people during dinner, trying to get them to do telephone surveys. This... did not please me. :P

 

 

 

When I finally realized I was wasting not only my life, but my happiness, I just quit. I quickly got a job working on computers. I LOVE working on computers. I'd do it for free if I had to, but it makes me loads of money now. I'm happy, and I have the finances to be happier later on, saving up money, and using it for something pleasureable, like a plane-trip out to a deserted island. :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I just woke up, and tend to ramble, but there's what I was thinking in my coffeeless mind.

[trapical]

Good post philosophically speaking. Scientificly however, you're wrong on a few minor things. True the laws of the universe state energy loses order over time, but the energy does not dissapear. Energy can not be created or destroyed, only converted. Chemical energy becomes kinetic, which can become electric, which may turn into heat. Over time, theoretically speaking, we are left with only heat energy; and most systems can not put that energy to use.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, you completly misused E=MC^2.

 

 

 

Without energy, there can be no life, and as an implication of E=MC^2, matter and energy are interchangeable, so it's unlikely there will be any matter either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats a equation used in nuclear chemistry to find out how much energy is given off by the fission of atoms. The protons and neutrons themselves are not destroyed, and they cannot be. Even if you removed all the energy in the unverse the matter would still be there. You cannot destroy matter. Period.

[insane]

Heh, Nietzsche went insane ^_^. Not that it's relevant to the work he wrote when he was sane, but, what if he was insane the whole time? :o dun dun dun... [/ridiculous conspiracy theory]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm interested on your views on origins. Because it is clear that something has to have always existed (Laws of conservation) - and if something has always existed - wouldn't it's entropy be infinite by now? Why aren't we all completely "inanimate rubble" if entropy has had an eternity to maximize itself?

[lordhathor]

Good post philosophically speaking. Scientificly however, you're wrong on a few minor things. True the laws of the universe state energy loses order over time, but the energy does not dissapear. Energy can not be created or destroyed, only converted. Chemical energy becomes kinetic, which can become electric, which may turn into heat. Over time, theoretically speaking, we are left with only heat energy; and most systems can not put that energy to use.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, you completly misused E=MC^2.

 

 

 

Without energy, there can be no life, and as an implication of E=MC^2, matter and energy are interchangeable, so it's unlikely there will be any matter either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats a equation used in nuclear chemistry to find out how much energy is given off by the fission of atoms. The protons and neutrons themselves are not destroyed, and they cannot be. Even if you removed all the energy in the unverse the matter would still be there. You cannot destroy matter. Period.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I meant without useable energy. Entropy isn't something that can support life.

 

 

 

You can't destroy matter, but I never said you could. I said matter was a form of energy, which, according to that equation, it is. It doesn't matter what it's used for, the facts remain true. Matter doesn'thave to be destroyed to be converted into something else. Another form of energy.