Attack, Strength or Defense?

[Lep]

After the Postbag and the theory that langer came up with do you still choose Strength as the main skill for fighting? I don't mean to put him on the spot or anything, but here's his post. It's a very smart and logical one. :thumbup:

 

 

 

 

 

"not only is this fine maths, it's also an insight as to how hits and damage are calculated.

 

 

 

It also confirms what I've been thinking for some time. Every time you hit a monster, your attack level (plus prayer boost and slayer helmet effect or salve ammy) added to your gear attack bonus (slash, stab or crush) gives a number (let's say 250 maxed out with godsword). From this number, a random number is rolled. Let's say you rolled 185. On that hit, your enemy will roll a random number from 0 to ... whatever his max bonus is. If your enemy rolls 185 and higher, you splash a 0. If it rolls under 185, you will get a hit. The hit is determine by the str bonus and another random number is rolled translating to damage. Note that you could succeed with your attack roll and hit a 0 with your str roll. That's still hypothetical, but I'm pretty sure that's the most accurate explanation."

 

 

 

 

 

I myself have always thought that Attack bonuses are better than Strength but now it is sort of proven. Everyone uses the Helm of Neitiznot for the Strength Bonus, which according to the roulette wheel, means +3 chances to hit higher than 0 as long as the Attack roulette wheel managed a number greater than the opponents Defense bonus's roulette wheel to begin with. However, a Warrior Helm gives +4 Slash which means +4 chances to hit higher than the opponents Defense roulette wheel does therefore triggering you being able to hit any damage at all with the Strength roulette wheel.

 

 

 

The below picture shows the maximum Slash Attack and maximum Slash Defense. It doesn't take into factor Strength bonus, Special Attacks, Prayers or the speed of weapons, but basically the lower total number should mean that setup has a higher chance of winning. (I know this because if you assume the opponent has 50 Slash Attack, the total number is in the 300s which is bad, so the number being higher is bad) This is also assuming that each player has all 99 Melee stats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most people always go for the maximum Strength bonus they can, but that isn't what you should do. Unless you are doing some sort of Duel or something, you basically have enough Strength bonus as it is with the weapon itself to do very decent damage, so why give up the Defense or Attack bonuses for the Strength bonus? It really doesn't make sense to do that. :? If you give up the Warrior Ring for the Berserker Ring, that's like sacrificing +4 chances to hit at all for +4 chances to hit above 0 (assuming the Attack roulette wheel even made it to the Strength/damage roulette wheel) and that +4 chance to hit above 0 is basically a chance to hit 1 damage, which is stupid because you already do significant damage with the weapon itself.

 

 

 

This makes sense to me anyhow. :-# Personally, I would choose maximum Defense over anything because it stops them from hitting you a hell of a lot, and even though your chances of hitting them may be slightly lower than usual if you had maximum Attack bonuses, you still have enough chance to deal damage to them and rarely get hit yourself.

[Zaaps1]

Wow, that's extremely interesting.

 

 

 

Just need to keep in mind that it's unconfirmed and still only a theory, so it COULD be incorrect. Seems flawless to me, but that doesn't prevent it from being flat out wrong.

[Amundogus2]

That last illustration... how can attack be better than defence, defence be better than strength, while attack is equal to strength?

 

 

 

EDIT: I don't have the mind clarity to understand the text right now, so if there is something there that makes this unlikely formula true, then I'm sorry :)

[Lep]

That last illustration... how can attack be better than defence, defence be better than strength, while attack is equal to strength?

 

 

 

lol yeah you're right about that picture, it's something I just kinda threw in there. :-# Didn't really seem to work for in my mind either though. I removed it.

[Amundogus2]

That last illustration... how can attack be better than defence, defence be better than strength, while attack is equal to strength?

 

 

 

lol yeah you're right about that picture, it's something I just kinda threw in there. :-# Didn't really seem to work for in my mind either though. I removed it.

 

:lol:

 

I feel kinda smart now :o

[Riemis]

Sounds intresting :)

 

I always preferred training attack over strength, now i know why!

 

Two questions:

 

-Would a pure def with 1 attack and 1 strength focus on accuracy or strength? (More chance of hitting, more chance of doing a hit if the attack number is high enough)

 

-Could the Fist of Guthix weakening system work by giving you lower chances of rolling a high number, or is it just an invisible level boost?

 

 

 

oh, and charged Dragon Gauntlets give a better slash defence then Barrow Gloves ;)

[langer]

Wow, didn't my theory would be put to the test that soon!

 

 

 

Just a side note because you will get a lot of PVP'er saying that high hits are better for the K.O. effect justifying their set-up. They may be right, but what stats can't show us is the effect of weapon speed and the ability to heal.

 

 

 

Edit : oops read too fast and just noticed you already dismissed that.

 

 

 

One point though is that you substract from the opponent's total defence your total attack bonus. What you should do is divide your total attack bonus by your opponent's total defence bonus. Giving you a % or accuracy. Meaning you will hit X% of the time against an opponent.

[Lep]

Wow, didn't my theory would be put to the test that soon!

 

 

 

Just a side note because you will get a lot of PVP'er saying that high hits are better for the K.O. effect justifying their set-up. They may be right, but what stats can't show us is the effect of weapon speed and the ability to heal.

 

 

 

Edit : oops read too fast and just noticed you already dismissed that.

 

 

 

One point though is that you substract from the opponent's total defence your total attack bonus. What you should do is divide your total attack bonus by your opponent's total defence bonus. Giving you a % or accuracy. Meaning you will hit X% of the time against an opponent.

 

 

 

I think you also have to multiply it by 100 (%) to get the odds otherwise it's in the decimals such as 0.21345, but if I do so then this is what comes up:

 

Left Picture = 53%

 

Right Picture = 60%

 

 

 

Which seems pretty correct.

 

 

 

Also, I didn't realize that about Dragon Gauntlets, I assumed Barrows were the best lol. :o However, Lucky Cutlass also gives +6 Slash Defense and I think the Castle Wars Cloaks give +3 Slash Attack, but those really aren't that logical to use. :?

[mister_moocky]

That formula is all speculation. There are many variables that could effect a hit, and guessing wich ones do what doesn't prove anything. Bandos doesn't effect accuracy, so using it instead of Torag's is a massive bias. Dragon gauntlets have better melee defence than barrow gloves. You also might want to add you're not counting pvp armour, or weapons that provide defence.

[langer]

Yeah, multiplying by 100 was implied, sorry.

[Riemis]

 

Also, I didn't realize that about Dragon Gauntlets, I assumed Barrows were the best lol. :o However, Lucky Cutlass also gives +6 Slash Defense and I think the Castle Wars Cloaks give +3 Slash Attack, but those really aren't that logical to use. :?

 

 

 

Choosing a Lucky Cutlass as weapon would make your own slash bonus plummit, making it a worse setup :/

 

So i guess it is best to stick with the good 'ol whip ^^

[Lep]

That formula is all speculation. There are many variables that could effect a hit, and guessing wich ones do what doesn't prove anything. Bandos doesn't effect accuracy, so using it instead of Torag's is a massive bias. Dragon gauntlets have better melee defence than barrow gloves. You also might want to add you're not counting pvp armour, or weapons that provide defence.

 

 

 

Yeah it is all speculation, but it's the best thing there is to go off of. However, I'm willing to bet that if you placed 2 people with all 99 Melee stats wearing those specific equipments that the one on the right would win most of the time. Also because the Godsword is fairly slow and the Whip hits almost 2 times in the time that the Godsword hits once which is sort of like doubled odds in a way.

[langer]

That formula is all speculation. There are many variables that could effect a hit, and guessing wich ones do what doesn't prove anything. Bandos doesn't effect accuracy, so using it instead of Torag's is a massive bias. Dragon gauntlets have better melee defence than barrow gloves. You also might want to add you're not counting pvp armour, or weapons that provide defence.

 

 

 

I think he just compared set-ups that are mostly used in PVP.

 

The assumption is wether a hit will occur or not. Str bonus is not counted in that calculation as if doesn't affect if you hit or not.

[Le_Fay]

Where is that equipment calculator thing? (Off topic)

[Riemis]

Where is that equipment calculator thing? (Off topic)

 

http://www.tip.it/runescape/index.php?r ... ools&build

[kudos6969]

you need the higher hits for ko's and you need higher hits for faster exp as fast exp is gained on low def mosnters where attack isnt needed so despite the fact that the right side is "better" the left side is better for almost all situations on runescape.

 

 

 

Any situation where you take abit more damage doesnt usualy require higher def armour because you can use things like bunyips, unicorns etc to make up for that.

 

 

 

so i agree but disagree :P

[langer]

What this also shows it that the best offensive set-up (without taking into account the rapidly degradable PVP armour and weapons) will hit 53% of the time against the best defensive set-up.

 

And following that theory, it will hit on average half his max damage.

[Lep]

you need the higher hits for ko's and you need higher hits for faster exp as fast exp is gained on low def mosnters where attack isnt needed so despite the fact that the right side is "better" the left side is better for almost all situations on runescape.

 

 

 

Any situation where you take abit more damage doesnt usualy require higher def armour because you can use things like bunyips, unicorns etc to make up for that.

 

 

 

so i agree but disagree :P

 

 

 

It's true that you need high hits to KO, but like I said in my main post you already hit high enough as it is without the little Strength trinkets. Assuming you went into pvp with the setup to the right and use Super Strength Potions and Piety, with a Dragon Dagger special you can max 39,39 and with the Whip you can max 44. As a bonus you also have amazingly high Defense and can constantly hit high numbers like that without needing to eat as much.

 

 

 

If you did pvp with the setup on the left, you can max 72 with the AGS special or 58 without it. However, if you swapped the Warrior Helm for a Neitiznot Helm and the Warrior Ring for a Berserker Ring, that is sacrificing +8 Slash Attack (8 more chances to hit at all to trigger the Strength roulette wheel) for the chance to do a possible 2 more damage with the AGS special or 1 more damage without it. (According to Tip.it calc)

[compfreak847]

y'know, it seems pretty simple; as long as effects of attack\strength are equal, +4 strength outdoes +4 attack if your hitting over 50% of the time, and vice versa on a high defence opponent. It's simple mathmatics, you could say that +8 attack outdoes +4 strength at under 75% hitting rates and so on and so forth. Same thing for defence.

[Misterknowitall]

Most of the time I use prayer equipment.

[game_proffy]

First, let us assume that the formula is correct. This is how you calculate percentage of winning. Notice that I don't multiply by 100%, as I'm used to deal with decimal rates in statistics. Also, this applies only to PROLONGED combat, meaning that high-strength setups still have a higher chance to KO at the beginning of the fight.

 

 

 

Player 1:



A1 = total attack bonus

S1 = total strength bonus

D1 = total defense bonus

WS1 = weapon speed (I assume hits/timeframe)

H1 = hitpoints



Player 2:



A2 = total attack bonus

S2 = total strength bonus

D2 = total defense bonus

WS2 = weapon speed

H2 = hitpoints



First, calculating chance to hit, or CTH1/2:



There are 2 main cases: when D >= (A-1) and when D < (A-1)



In the first case:



CTH1 = [A1*(A1+1)] / [2*(A1+1)*(D2+1)]

CTH2 = [A2*(A2+1)] / [2*(A2+1)*(D1+1)]



In the second case:



CTH1 = [(2*A1-D2)*(D2+1)] / [2*(A1+1)*(D2+1)]

CTH2 = [(2*A2-D1)*(D1+1)] / [2*(A2+1)*(D1+1)]



Average damage per set timeframe, or DPT1/2:



DPT1 = CTH1 * S1 * WS1

DPT2 = CTH2 * S2 * WS2



Chance that player 1 will attain victory, or V1:



V1 = DPT1 * H1 / (DPT1 * H1 + DPT2 * H2)

 

 

 

Please note that both chance to hit and chance to win are decimal numbers, ranging from 0 to 1, which is 0% to 100%. Also, this is statistics, which means it's an approximate of what would happen during many many fights.

 

 

 

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not ask me about those CTH formulae. I will have to write a small essay with excel spreadsheets and my scribblings to prove that the formulae actually work...

[mmmcannibalism]

just a small thought

 

 

 

its possible that if your attack role "hits" that your guarenteed at least one damage.

[bluehooloovo]

just a small thought

 

 

 

its possible that if your attack role "hits" that your guarenteed at least one damage.

 

Note that you could succeed with your attack roll and hit a 0 with your str roll.

 

So in order to hit a number, you'd need both to hit, and to get a certain strength roll.

 

 

 

I'll let other people go into all the fancy calculations, though.

[game_proffy]

Updated my CTH formula. Again, PLEASE do not ask how I found it (or them) out. It was a major pain and quite a lot of statistics.

[Aneron]

you're kind of begging people to ask lol

 

 

 

but anyways yes, barrows armor is much better than bandos and fremmenik helms, as most duelists know. one thing though, ring of recoil > warrior or zerker :P